I agree that there should be multiple difficulty tiers, but the lower tier needs to also offer Legendary Precursor armor. That’s the entire point of the raid for most players who honestly couldn’t give a kitten about raiding otherwise.
Ohoni’s beliefs all on show guys, don’t let him influence raid design.
You don’t know what a strawman is… You JUST used those definitions of people IN YOUR ARGUMENT.
of the four statements used by you only one (the first) comes from my post. Three remaining ones are yours alone.
It’s good to know however, that you need to misrepresent my statements to argue with me. It means you can’t really refute my points.
Here is what you wrote;
“because they don’t have gear, don’t have enough friends interested in doing them, or don’t have enough time, or because it’s the kind of content that is simply not appealing to them”
1) Ascended Gear is easy to get except Armour which contributes +20 Primary stat and +16 Secondary stat.
2) If you can’t be nice to 9 other people and them like you enough to spend some time raiding then you have more pressing concerns than raiding.
3) If you don’t have enough time then you clearly have more pressing concerns than raiding.
4) If you don’t like raiding, don’t raid.
You are just empty. You are a void of points, a desert of arguments, a barren place where thoughts die and nothing good shall spring from such a place – certainly not raid design anyway.
@Coulter
I like how you quickly jumped from the relatively low difference of stats on ascended armor to saying that ascended as a whole is similarly irrelevant.
Because every other Ascended item is easy to get, Armour is the only thing that takes time. Do a bit of thinking…
Maybe having full exotics will not be a guarantee of failure, but it’s going to significantly increase chances of failing.
This is a lie, +20 Primary Stats and +16 Secondary Stats (the benefit of full Ascended Armour) will never “significantly” increase your chances of winning. Do not fall for this argument it is NONSENSE.
“Full exotics”. Learn to read.
“Full Exotics” means you have a play time of less than a month, raiding isn’t for you… Learn to think.
Neither. People excluded from doing raids (because they don’t have gear, don’t have enough friends interested in doing them, or don’t have enough time, or because it’s the kind of content that is simply not appealing to them)
You left out people for whom raiding is against their religion..
Er, what? What in “content that is simply not appealing for them” you didn’t understand?
If you don’t like raiding, are so abrasive that any choice of 9 people cannot stand to be near you, have multiple more pressing real life commitments and haven’t bothered in months to log in then you might not be the target of raids.. Get a grip..
That’s a good strawman, keep building.
You don’t know what a strawman is… You JUST used those definitions of people IN YOUR ARGUMENT.
Maybe having full exotics will not be a guarantee of failure, but it’s going to significantly increase chances of failing.
This is a lie, +20 Primary Stats and +16 Secondary Stats (the benefit of full Ascended Armour) will never “significantly” increase your chances of winning. Do not fall for this argument it is NONSENSE.
Neither. People excluded from doing raids (because they don’t have gear, don’t have enough friends interested in doing them, or don’t have enough time, or because it’s the kind of content that is simply not appealing to them)
You left out people for whom raiding is against their religion.. Can’t believe you would be so exclusionist..
If you don’t like raiding, are so abrasive that any choice of 9 people cannot stand to be near you, have multiple more pressing real life commitments and haven’t bothered in months to log in then you might not be the target of raids.. Get a grip..
Full Ascended Armour (the most expensive part of Ascended Gear) gives +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stats, it is a LIE to say that the tiny stat difference will in any way block people from content.
There is NO BARRIER to Raids from Ascended, people who say there is are incorrect or lying.
On top of all that its +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat there will be VERY few, to the point of almost impossible, groups who will fail to get a kill eventually with such a tiny stat difference.
So let’s take that concern off the table by making that difference not exist.
It only concerns YOU and as I’ve shown YOU do not have VALID concerns – its already off the table you just are trying to desperately put it back on (and failing).
Ascended Armour stats WILL NOT influence a group’s ability to down a boss eventually. This thread is just someone trying to trick people into thinking there is an issue where there isn’t.
+20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stats will not block ANYONE from content.
Said above but worth saying again. If you haven’t got yourself Ascended then you haven’t done high level Fractals so you’ve been actively ignoring the hard content in game so far – why are you trying to impose your philosophy on the content now?
Its designed for people who want that high end experience – you have shown yourself not to be that kind of person, it would be like someone who hated jumping complaining about SAB.
On top of all that its +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat there will be VERY few, to the point of almost impossible, groups who will fail to get a kill eventually with such a tiny stat difference.
That’s nice for you. Some of us aren’t so lucky. I’ve never seen an ascended drop, and I’ll be surprised if I ever do. They’re just not that common for most of us.
I got my first Ascended drop just the other day. It came out of a Princess poop. Three years and that’s the first I’ve gotten though.
Thats because you don’t do high level Fractals – why suddenly in such a fuss over new high end content when you’ve avoided it for 2 years… Its not designed for people like you – I’m not saying the way you play the game is wrong but you clearly have interests that don’t cover “difficult” content, so why try and inflict your philosphy on people who do like that content?
1) Is just personal taste so can’t really argue.
2) They cannot do because what if the new skin for your class is suddenly worse to the crafter than the skin they worked for. Its like saying “you bought X but we think Y suits you more so we’re replacing your X.” So it couldn’t be implemented without giving the option to retain the original skin.
But the major issue is the art devs then need to design buckets of new Legendary quality skins (getting these skins a cut above all other options and unique is pretty hard – now try doing it for 6 classes just for staff) AND you then will have people saying “I prefer the engi version of rifle! why can’t I use on my warrior!” – its too much effort for drama.
I think the best solution is just to keep making a new range Legendary skins with differing themes with each expansion – the next SBow could be something less rainbow and unicorn so there is more choice. Then people can make their choices and get what they want.
That’s because most people that ask for a difficult content do not really want it to be difficult. They want it restricted. Preferably in a way that will limit access to everyone except them and their friends.
Exactly.
Except the restriction comes from the difficulty not gear.. Full Ascended Armour grants +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stats – it will not be a barrier, people are jumping on this topic to try and frame the debate as exclusive and unfair without appreciating the FACTS.
Do not let people convince you that raids are out of reach of participation due to gear – they are lying to you for selfish gains (Ohoni just wants access to raid armour skins and weapon skins, he is not interested in a challenging and rewarding game mode existing).
That only works because WoW is a geargrind game, in which better gear makes for effortless raiding. In GW2 gear can matter, but it isn’t likely to allow players to coast through the content.
Thanks now go post this in the “Ascended Gear Required for Raiding” thread you’re crying in…
You gain +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stats from Ascended Armour – just skip it… It is EXTREMELY unlikely to be the difference between win and loss.
You will not need Ascended Armour.
So you would have no problems going into a raid with a group of mostly Exotic-wearing players? You would not have any sort of “gear check” before entering?
The question is not whether or not Ascended will actually be required by the content’s design, it’s about whether or not human nature will demand it of the players.
Ohoni I have friends… You should maybe stop trying to get everything for free on forums by complaining and go make some in game.
The Exalted are the Mursaat and we’re being tricked again. “Exalted” is the new “Unseen Ones” how easy it must have been to trick the Zephyrites after Glint’s death.
“Bring us the baby dragon we’re at our Golden City in the jungle, we’ll look after it, we’re super friends with Glint. Trust us.”
Ascended gear would be a real pain for those who like multi-classing…
You gain +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stats from Ascended Armour – just skip it… It is EXTREMELY unlikely to be the difference between win and loss.
You will not need Ascended Armour.
So if not important, anet should just make ascended gear just a skin.
And let infuse and use AR also on exotics. Nobody would complain, right?
Why those who whined to have a progression beyond exo (and so bought a game as it was,then complained asking it to become something it wasn’t) should be more logical and reasonable than who didn’t want it (and bought because of it, exactly because there WASN’T nor raids nor hard-to-acquire BiS)?But if there is no difference, why did they bother to implement it and kitten off a part of users..?
They implemented it because people instantly got Exotics (faster than the devs expected, I think) and they saw a sharp decrease in people logging in and the posts on forums “no end game or anything to go for after hitting 80!” The devs response was Ascended Gear and Fractals.
Regardless they are not requirements as I stated +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stats for full Ascended Armour (the main source of expense). If you don’t have and will not get you are not suffering much – so stop pretending its an issue (notice you already dropped “Ascended needed” for “why is it there?”).
You have lost the argument.
Ascended gear would be a real pain for those who like multi-classing…
You gain +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stats from Ascended Armour – just skip it… It is EXTREMELY unlikely to be the difference between win and loss.
You will not need Ascended Armour.
The Mursaat have got the devs to lie to us, very cunning, and the Master of Peace thinks he’s getting that egg to safety xD
Explain in what kind of “misguidance” am I falling that AR has already excluded me from pve endgame in fotm?
Raids don’t have agony in them, NEXT!
I think the thing I love best about this thread is that in the time it’s been running you could have MADE a piece of exotic armor and be well on your way to having a weapon done too if it uses wood. I haven’t bothered with final assembly, but I’ve made all the time gated mats for my gloves while following the drama. Just need helm and shoulders and one more weapon.
6 armor slots and 2-4 weapons. It just NOT that high a level of expectation from most people planning to be playing for a year or more.
What if you will need two, or even three different sets for the entire raid?
…I’ll cheer that they came up with something so inventive and demanding it not only requires some roles-distinction but it requires swapping those roles between bosses?
The question is what does ascended add to that? Just a bit more exclusivity?
Lets be honest, Ascended Armour gives you +20 Primary Stat and +16 to Secondary Stats – this is EXTREMELY unlikely to be the difference between a win and loss. You can very easily use exotic armour with the rune set you desire paired with Ascended Trinkets etc to change build.
People thinking “oh you need Ascended thats such a gear barrier” are not actually looking at what they gain from it… Or being deliberately misleading…
Well, I agree with you. My point is that although not as many, there’s a group of people that’s just as excited about this supposed gear barrier as are against it. With that in mind, I’m trying to find out why that would be the case. What does the gear barrier help (especially, as you noted, while we’re within this 2-5% range)?
Exactly you have 2 groups of “misguided individuals”; one group thinks there is a gear barrier and its bad, the other thinks there is a gear barrier and its good.
There is no gear barrier.
(edited by Coulter.2315)
I really hope they nerf this once HoT comes out, it is just too disproportionately rewarding (for time/effort). It served its purpose keeping people playing and not screaming for new stuff while we waited for HoT but it needs to be retired.
I think the thing I love best about this thread is that in the time it’s been running you could have MADE a piece of exotic armor and be well on your way to having a weapon done too if it uses wood. I haven’t bothered with final assembly, but I’ve made all the time gated mats for my gloves while following the drama. Just need helm and shoulders and one more weapon.
6 armor slots and 2-4 weapons. It just NOT that high a level of expectation from most people planning to be playing for a year or more.
What if you will need two, or even three different sets for the entire raid?
…I’ll cheer that they came up with something so inventive and demanding it not only requires some roles-distinction but it requires swapping those roles between bosses?
The question is what does ascended add to that? Just a bit more exclusivity?
Lets be honest, Ascended Armour gives you +20 Primary Stat and +16 to Secondary Stats – this is EXTREMELY unlikely to be the difference between a win and loss. You can very easily use exotic armour with the rune set you desire paired with Ascended Trinkets etc to change build.
People thinking “oh you need Ascended thats such a gear barrier” are not actually looking at what they gain from it… Or being deliberately misleading…
It lasts 1sec per clone + 1sec base (from you). So 1-4secs depending on how you use it.
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.
And there you’ve said it, “they will maybe do it a few times for lore” that is not retention… That is one run to see the cutscenes and dialogue if you’re paying attention, that is not worth adding to the game. Just go watch WP anyway for Lore :P
Also I’m not sure how heavy our GW2 raids will be on “story” all we know atm is a pact squad is missing and there seems to be a Bloodstone piece on the floor. Interesting no doubt but adding LFR (and all the trouble it brings – people feeling forced to grind it for extra loot drops and resentment over the cheapening of raids and extra development time required). Uuurgh it was not a provably good thing for WoW and all my memories of it were awful and please don’t bring it here.
I think it’s retention…People mostly do single-player campaigns in real-time strategy games such as starcraft and warcraft (not wow) for lore (you don’t need so many episodes to learn how to use the units), but these campaigns are created anyway.
You’re having now to reach for RTS to make your point, you know its not retention to do something once every 6 months in an MMO (every 6 months being their pencil’d in time table for raid releases I think I read – if its a different number read that instead).
One evening every 6 months to be rushed through a raid by strangers zooming off ahead to want to grind through it on easy mode would not give you a good lore experience anyway – I would point to Nobbel who does WoW lore and he actually gets guilds to run him through the real raid instances instead of doing LFR.
It won’t retain retiring raiders, if they’re stickin around in the game for 6 months for 1 evening of LFR then they are clearly staying for other things (which is a good thing) and we don;t need this abomination brought to our shores.
Actually I don’t have to reach to RTS. I am pretty sure that the living story season 2 helped Anet to retain many players. Most players just do it once for lore, and only some opt to grind it for things like Bioluminescence.
Oh I agree new content is great, but thats exactly what I would want – single playered instances for Story (ie. LS3) and Raids kept as Raids (I really don’t need the raids to be drowned in Lore infact most were not; most of the bosses in ICC were just made up on the spot to fill a slot). Mordremoth should be killed in the main story line that everyone can do – raids are a side mission for those interested.
I didn’t really propose to dumb down raids. Creating multiple difficulty levels, or use the fractals systems, will not take away the challenging content. In fact, with these options, Anet will never have to nerf any raid boss (which was done sometimes in other MMOs), because alternate ways of experiencing these encounters are provided anyway. Therefore, it’s ultimately good for those who want challenging content as well.
As we discussed earlier doing them fractal style loses their epic feeling, as has been explained by others you will have your raid progress saved at the end of wings. You do not need these extra difficulty levels or fractal style 1 per instance.
I’m not sure how easy it would be for Anet to create different levels of Raid given it took WoW 2 expansions and A LOT of tinkering and trial and error and a very Raid focused player base to settle into what it thought was best and now has gone over board with adding Raid stuff that it has drained all the life from every other part of the game (the raids were the only solid part of their last expansion the rest was given a lot of criticism and thats from resource management I would think – don’t believe “add extra raid levels” comes at zero cost).
Epic feelings come at a cost. By regularly playing games for 5+ hours straight without major breaks, one may get into health issues. Think about neck pains, back pains, eye issues… GW1 used to show the message that “you have been playing for x hours” to remind people that their own health is important.
Epic feelings do not imply more challenges to player skills. Therefore, people are sacrificing their heath for … actually I don’t know what for.
Have we reached the point in the evening where its time to stop? I think so, you’ve just gone for the “raiding causes health problems” argument. I can asure you I am perfectly healthy and really expect other humans to have the intelligence to see to their own health.
Unless you want to complain to Peter Jackson for those dangerously long LotR directors cuts too – jesus the original Gone With The Wind must have caused a tidal wave of ER admissions.
Feeling things is good – its part of being human. Speaking of which I cannot recommend Inside Out enough – was so good – I would even say watch it alone to let all those emotions work without worrying about bursting into tears infront of people you know.
You can choose to watch the 3 LOTR movies (extended) in one day to get the epic feeling, but most others would just use three different days or as many days as they want to, and they don’t have to watch them in the same week. What is important is that, having the ability to watch 3 LOTR movies on the same day won’t stop others from using more days.
Keeping raids in long raid wings will make it difficult for others to enjoy each encounter one by one at their own pace. If they use a system like fractals, or have raid wings that can be cleared in 1 hour for skillful players, nothing would stop you from getting a group to move from one instance to another on the same night, in order to raid for 5+ hours a time to get the epic feeling, provided that you do this with a hardcore raid guild. We actually move from one instance to another when we move from one zone to the next, and I don’t think this makes the GW2 world look smaller.
If jumping from instances to instances bothers you, I would say that they actually don’t even have to split a raid wing into multiple instances. It’s enough to give players the ability to jump to the x-th boss directly if they had killed first (x-1) bosses before, no matter how long ago they killed these bosses. It is like using a bookmark when reading a long epic fantasy fiction; you don’t have to read it from the very beginning each time you do some reading. You see, there are multiple ways of giving you the epic feeling without making others have access to less new content.
Others say that it is selfish to ask Anet to nerf raids so that more people can do it. Now, is it selfish to prevent more people from having access to new content, because some want an epic feeling that does not imply more challenges?
Nothing is stopping you clearing 1 wing a week and saving your progress but having 1 boss per instance will just destroy the feeling and Guild Wars’ devs put a lot of effort into their environments. Its not unreasonable and its not selfish to ask you to kill 3 bosses in a week if you are raiding.
If you can watch all the LotR movies in a week you can manage that. No one is getting less access – you’re inventing barriers which you do not know exist.
Having 3 bosses in one raid wing will not make hardcore players happy, because it’s not epic enough. They will call it too casual and too easy, and complain about it. When their guild has a raid wing on farm status, they will clear it in under 2 hours, and complain that the raid night is too short and they have nothing else to do.
Besides, the “bookmark” feature that I proposed does not even require Anet to put a boss in each instance. They can put 10 bosses in each raid wing if they want to, as long as players can “bookmark” their progress indefinitely. You can always find hardcore raid guilds in which players want to do it from the first boss to the last every week, and others can do it at their own pace.
Well if it doesn’t compromise the design of the instance I see no trouble with a bookmark idea – I’m not sure if its possible to implement though.
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.
And there you’ve said it, “they will maybe do it a few times for lore” that is not retention… That is one run to see the cutscenes and dialogue if you’re paying attention, that is not worth adding to the game. Just go watch WP anyway for Lore :P
Also I’m not sure how heavy our GW2 raids will be on “story” all we know atm is a pact squad is missing and there seems to be a Bloodstone piece on the floor. Interesting no doubt but adding LFR (and all the trouble it brings – people feeling forced to grind it for extra loot drops and resentment over the cheapening of raids and extra development time required). Uuurgh it was not a provably good thing for WoW and all my memories of it were awful and please don’t bring it here.
I think it’s retention…People mostly do single-player campaigns in real-time strategy games such as starcraft and warcraft (not wow) for lore (you don’t need so many episodes to learn how to use the units), but these campaigns are created anyway.
You’re having now to reach for RTS to make your point, you know its not retention to do something once every 6 months in an MMO (every 6 months being their pencil’d in time table for raid releases I think I read – if its a different number read that instead).
One evening every 6 months to be rushed through a raid by strangers zooming off ahead to want to grind through it on easy mode would not give you a good lore experience anyway – I would point to Nobbel who does WoW lore and he actually gets guilds to run him through the real raid instances instead of doing LFR.
It won’t retain retiring raiders, if they’re stickin around in the game for 6 months for 1 evening of LFR then they are clearly staying for other things (which is a good thing) and we don;t need this abomination brought to our shores.
Actually I don’t have to reach to RTS. I am pretty sure that the living story season 2 helped Anet to retain many players. Most players just do it once for lore, and only some opt to grind it for things like Bioluminescence.
Oh I agree new content is great, but thats exactly what I would want – single playered instances for Story (ie. LS3) and Raids kept as Raids (I really don’t need the raids to be drowned in Lore infact most were not; most of the bosses in ICC were just made up on the spot to fill a slot). Mordremoth should be killed in the main story line that everyone can do – raids are a side mission for those interested.
I didn’t really propose to dumb down raids. Creating multiple difficulty levels, or use the fractals systems, will not take away the challenging content. In fact, with these options, Anet will never have to nerf any raid boss (which was done sometimes in other MMOs), because alternate ways of experiencing these encounters are provided anyway. Therefore, it’s ultimately good for those who want challenging content as well.
As we discussed earlier doing them fractal style loses their epic feeling, as has been explained by others you will have your raid progress saved at the end of wings. You do not need these extra difficulty levels or fractal style 1 per instance.
I’m not sure how easy it would be for Anet to create different levels of Raid given it took WoW 2 expansions and A LOT of tinkering and trial and error and a very Raid focused player base to settle into what it thought was best and now has gone over board with adding Raid stuff that it has drained all the life from every other part of the game (the raids were the only solid part of their last expansion the rest was given a lot of criticism and thats from resource management I would think – don’t believe “add extra raid levels” comes at zero cost).
Epic feelings come at a cost. By regularly playing games for 5+ hours straight without major breaks, one may get into health issues. Think about neck pains, back pains, eye issues… GW1 used to show the message that “you have been playing for x hours” to remind people that their own health is important.
Epic feelings do not imply more challenges to player skills. Therefore, people are sacrificing their heath for … actually I don’t know what for.
Have we reached the point in the evening where its time to stop? I think so, you’ve just gone for the “raiding causes health problems” argument. I can asure you I am perfectly healthy and really expect other humans to have the intelligence to see to their own health.
Unless you want to complain to Peter Jackson for those dangerously long LotR directors cuts too – jesus the original Gone With The Wind must have caused a tidal wave of ER admissions.
Feeling things is good – its part of being human. Speaking of which I cannot recommend Inside Out enough – was so good – I would even say watch it alone to let all those emotions work without worrying about bursting into tears infront of people you know.
You can choose to watch the 3 LOTR movies (extended) in one day to get the epic feeling, but most others would just use three different days or as many days as they want to, and they don’t have to watch them in the same week. What is important is that, having the ability to watch 3 LOTR movies on the same day won’t stop others from using more days.
Keeping raids in long raid wings will make it difficult for others to enjoy each encounter one by one at their own pace. If they use a system like fractals, or have raid wings that can be cleared in 1 hour for skillful players, nothing would stop you from getting a group to move from one instance to another on the same night, in order to raid for 5+ hours a time to get the epic feeling, provided that you do this with a hardcore raid guild. We actually move from one instance to another when we move from one zone to the next, and I don’t think this makes the GW2 world look smaller.
If jumping from instances to instances bothers you, I would say that they actually don’t even have to split a raid wing into multiple instances. It’s enough to give players the ability to jump to the x-th boss directly if they had killed first (x-1) bosses before, no matter how long ago they killed these bosses. It is like using a bookmark when reading a long epic fantasy fiction; you don’t have to read it from the very beginning each time you do some reading. You see, there are multiple ways of giving you the epic feeling without making others have access to less new content.
Others say that it is selfish to ask Anet to nerf raids so that more people can do it. Now, is it selfish to prevent more people from having access to new content, because some want an epic feeling that does not imply more challenges?
Nothing is stopping you clearing 1 wing a week and saving your progress but having 1 boss per instance will just destroy the feeling and Guild Wars’ devs put a lot of effort into their environments. Its not unreasonable and its not selfish to ask you to kill 3 bosses in a week if you are raiding.
If you can watch all the LotR movies in a week you can manage that. No one is getting less access – you’re inventing barriers which you do not know exist.
We’ve been threatened with “Challenging group content” for 9 months now.
They never said you would need Ascended armor for it. “Challenging content” has nothing to do with stats, the Lion’s Arch JP is challenging, you can do it at level 1.
Balancing content around being able to deal X amount of damage per minute is not “challenging,” that is just a gear-check. Challenge is in actual gameplay, and could be done even if the content required no more than blues and greens for gearing.
This post is ridiculous, comparing challenging group content to JPs and not thinking “dealing lots of damage means reducing defensive stats cannot mean more challenge” is just weird…
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.
And there you’ve said it, “they will maybe do it a few times for lore” that is not retention… That is one run to see the cutscenes and dialogue if you’re paying attention, that is not worth adding to the game. Just go watch WP anyway for Lore :P
Also I’m not sure how heavy our GW2 raids will be on “story” all we know atm is a pact squad is missing and there seems to be a Bloodstone piece on the floor. Interesting no doubt but adding LFR (and all the trouble it brings – people feeling forced to grind it for extra loot drops and resentment over the cheapening of raids and extra development time required). Uuurgh it was not a provably good thing for WoW and all my memories of it were awful and please don’t bring it here.
I think it’s retention…People mostly do single-player campaigns in real-time strategy games such as starcraft and warcraft (not wow) for lore (you don’t need so many episodes to learn how to use the units), but these campaigns are created anyway.
You’re having now to reach for RTS to make your point, you know its not retention to do something once every 6 months in an MMO (every 6 months being their pencil’d in time table for raid releases I think I read – if its a different number read that instead).
One evening every 6 months to be rushed through a raid by strangers zooming off ahead to want to grind through it on easy mode would not give you a good lore experience anyway – I would point to Nobbel who does WoW lore and he actually gets guilds to run him through the real raid instances instead of doing LFR.
It won’t retain retiring raiders, if they’re stickin around in the game for 6 months for 1 evening of LFR then they are clearly staying for other things (which is a good thing) and we don;t need this abomination brought to our shores.
Actually I don’t have to reach to RTS. I am pretty sure that the living story season 2 helped Anet to retain many players. Most players just do it once for lore, and only some opt to grind it for things like Bioluminescence.
Oh I agree new content is great, but thats exactly what I would want – single playered instances for Story (ie. LS3) and Raids kept as Raids (I really don’t need the raids to be drowned in Lore infact most were not; most of the bosses in ICC were just made up on the spot to fill a slot). Mordremoth should be killed in the main story line that everyone can do – raids are a side mission for those interested.
I didn’t really propose to dumb down raids. Creating multiple difficulty levels, or use the fractals systems, will not take away the challenging content. In fact, with these options, Anet will never have to nerf any raid boss (which was done sometimes in other MMOs), because alternate ways of experiencing these encounters are provided anyway. Therefore, it’s ultimately good for those who want challenging content as well.
As we discussed earlier doing them fractal style loses their epic feeling, as has been explained by others you will have your raid progress saved at the end of wings. You do not need these extra difficulty levels or fractal style 1 per instance.
I’m not sure how easy it would be for Anet to create different levels of Raid given it took WoW 2 expansions and A LOT of tinkering and trial and error and a very Raid focused player base to settle into what it thought was best and now has gone over board with adding Raid stuff that it has drained all the life from every other part of the game (the raids were the only solid part of their last expansion the rest was given a lot of criticism and thats from resource management I would think – don’t believe “add extra raid levels” comes at zero cost).
Epic feelings come at a cost. By regularly playing games for 5+ hours straight without major breaks, one may get into health issues. Think about neck pains, back pains, eye issues… GW1 used to show the message that “you have been playing for x hours” to remind people that their own health is important.
Epic feelings do not imply more challenges to player skills. Therefore, people are sacrificing their heath for … actually I don’t know what for.
Have we reached the point in the evening where its time to stop? I think so, you’ve just gone for the “raiding causes health problems” argument. I can asure you I am perfectly healthy and really expect other humans to have the intelligence to see to their own health.
Unless you want to complain to Peter Jackson for those dangerously long LotR directors cuts too – jesus the original Gone With The Wind must have caused a tidal wave of ER admissions.
Feeling things is good – its part of being human. Speaking of which I cannot recommend Inside Out enough – was so good – I would even say watch it alone to let all those emotions work without worrying about bursting into tears infront of people you know.
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.
And there you’ve said it, “they will maybe do it a few times for lore” that is not retention… That is one run to see the cutscenes and dialogue if you’re paying attention, that is not worth adding to the game. Just go watch WP anyway for Lore :P
Also I’m not sure how heavy our GW2 raids will be on “story” all we know atm is a pact squad is missing and there seems to be a Bloodstone piece on the floor. Interesting no doubt but adding LFR (and all the trouble it brings – people feeling forced to grind it for extra loot drops and resentment over the cheapening of raids and extra development time required). Uuurgh it was not a provably good thing for WoW and all my memories of it were awful and please don’t bring it here.
I think it’s retention…People mostly do single-player campaigns in real-time strategy games such as starcraft and warcraft (not wow) for lore (you don’t need so many episodes to learn how to use the units), but these campaigns are created anyway.
You’re having now to reach for RTS to make your point, you know its not retention to do something once every 6 months in an MMO (every 6 months being their pencil’d in time table for raid releases I think I read – if its a different number read that instead).
One evening every 6 months to be rushed through a raid by strangers zooming off ahead to want to grind through it on easy mode would not give you a good lore experience anyway – I would point to Nobbel who does WoW lore and he actually gets guilds to run him through the real raid instances instead of doing LFR.
It won’t retain retiring raiders, if they’re stickin around in the game for 6 months for 1 evening of LFR then they are clearly staying for other things (which is a good thing) and we don;t need this abomination brought to our shores.
Actually I don’t have to reach to RTS. I am pretty sure that the living story season 2 helped Anet to retain many players. Most players just do it once for lore, and only some opt to grind it for things like Bioluminescence.
Oh I agree new content is great, but thats exactly what I would want – single playered instances for Story (ie. LS3) and Raids kept as Raids (I really don’t need the raids to be drowned in Lore infact most were not; most of the bosses in ICC were just made up on the spot to fill a slot). Mordremoth should be killed in the main story line that everyone can do – raids are a side mission for those interested.
I didn’t really propose to dumb down raids. Creating multiple difficulty levels, or use the fractals systems, will not take away the challenging content. In fact, with these options, Anet will never have to nerf any raid boss (which was done sometimes in other MMOs), because alternate ways of experiencing these encounters are provided anyway. Therefore, it’s ultimately good for those who want challenging content as well.
As we discussed earlier doing them fractal style loses their epic feeling, as has been explained by others you will have your raid progress saved at the end of wings. You do not need these extra difficulty levels or fractal style 1 per instance.
I’m not sure how easy it would be for Anet to create different levels of Raid given it took WoW 2 expansions and A LOT of tinkering and trial and error and a very Raid focused player base to settle into what it thought was best and now has gone over board with adding Raid stuff that it has drained all the life from every other part of the game (the raids were the only solid part of their last expansion the rest was given a lot of criticism and thats from resource management I would think – don’t believe “add extra raid levels” comes at zero cost).
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.
And there you’ve said it, “they will maybe do it a few times for lore” that is not retention… That is one run to see the cutscenes and dialogue if you’re paying attention, that is not worth adding to the game. Just go watch WP anyway for Lore :P
Also I’m not sure how heavy our GW2 raids will be on “story” all we know atm is a pact squad is missing and there seems to be a Bloodstone piece on the floor. Interesting no doubt but adding LFR (and all the trouble it brings – people feeling forced to grind it for extra loot drops and resentment over the cheapening of raids and extra development time required). Uuurgh it was not a provably good thing for WoW and all my memories of it were awful and please don’t bring it here.
I think it’s retention…People mostly do single-player campaigns in real-time strategy games such as starcraft and warcraft (not wow) for lore (you don’t need so many episodes to learn how to use the units), but these campaigns are created anyway.
You’re having now to reach for RTS to make your point, you know its not retention to do something once every 6 months in an MMO (every 6 months being their pencil’d in time table for raid releases I think I read – if its a different number read that instead).
One evening every 6 months to be rushed through a raid by strangers zooming off ahead to want to grind through it on easy mode would not give you a good lore experience anyway – I would point to Nobbel who does WoW lore and he actually gets guilds to run him through the real raid instances instead of doing LFR.
It won’t retain retiring raiders, if they’re stickin around in the game for 6 months for 1 evening of LFR then they are clearly staying for other things (which is a good thing) and we don;t need this abomination brought to our shores.
Actually I don’t have to reach to RTS. I am pretty sure that the living story season 2 helped Anet to retain many players. Most players just do it once for lore, and only some opt to grind it for things like Bioluminescence.
Oh I agree new content is great, but thats exactly what I would want – single playered instances for Story (ie. LS3) and Raids kept as Raids (I really don’t need the raids to be drowned in Lore infact most were not; most of the bosses in ICC were just made up on the spot to fill a slot). Mordremoth should be killed in the main story line that everyone can do – raids are a side mission for those interested.
There’s nothing wrong with raids having a bit of side lore.
All of the personal story early paths have bits and pieces of lore and story in them, but none of it is crucial to the overall plot. However, some of it is information about the world you wouldn’t have access to any other way.
Like, it’s not important in the battle against mordremoth to know the history of the jotun, but you won’t really get that history if you don’t play the right PS. You’ll have far less information about uzolan or caudecus when you do CM story if you didn’t play the right story path.
It’s completely fine to have lore in raids as long as the knowledge or understanding of that lore isn’t crucial to the plot and can be summed up easily anywhere the story requires it.
Yer sorry should have been more explicit, I was very wishy washy with my definition of ‘lore’ using 2 at least.
My position is raids shouldn’t have massive influence on the main story arc (deaths of major players etc.) but can certainly include things which deepen the world (finding out interesting bits and pieces about things/people). That strengthens the independence of raids and means they can be focus of solid raid design without ruining the story experience for others who can’t/won’t do them.
you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.
Exactly, but the problem about it is that they designed and sold the game to someone…and after a while, totally changed direction.
Erm.. They announced Challenging Group Content as soon as HoT was spoken about – you were sold CGC and Raids, if you bought HoT you’re getting what they advertised. HoT was sold on the inclusion of raids (dsignated CGC initially but raids have been spoken about for a long time now), you cannot buy it and complain you were mislead somehow…
I mean at launch (can call it vanilla now?). I have not bought and I won’t buy HoT.
Awesome then you can still play the game exactly as you bought it, if you want the features in HoT feel free to get that too.
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.
And there you’ve said it, “they will maybe do it a few times for lore” that is not retention… That is one run to see the cutscenes and dialogue if you’re paying attention, that is not worth adding to the game. Just go watch WP anyway for Lore :P
Also I’m not sure how heavy our GW2 raids will be on “story” all we know atm is a pact squad is missing and there seems to be a Bloodstone piece on the floor. Interesting no doubt but adding LFR (and all the trouble it brings – people feeling forced to grind it for extra loot drops and resentment over the cheapening of raids and extra development time required). Uuurgh it was not a provably good thing for WoW and all my memories of it were awful and please don’t bring it here.
I think it’s retention…People mostly do single-player campaigns in real-time strategy games such as starcraft and warcraft (not wow) for lore (you don’t need so many episodes to learn how to use the units), but these campaigns are created anyway.
You’re having now to reach for RTS to make your point, you know its not retention to do something once every 6 months in an MMO (every 6 months being their pencil’d in time table for raid releases I think I read – if its a different number read that instead).
One evening every 6 months to be rushed through a raid by strangers zooming off ahead to want to grind through it on easy mode would not give you a good lore experience anyway – I would point to Nobbel who does WoW lore and he actually gets guilds to run him through the real raid instances instead of doing LFR.
It won’t retain retiring raiders, if they’re stickin around in the game for 6 months for 1 evening of LFR then they are clearly staying for other things (which is a good thing) and we don;t need this abomination brought to our shores.
Actually I don’t have to reach to RTS. I am pretty sure that the living story season 2 helped Anet to retain many players. Most players just do it once for lore, and only some opt to grind it for things like Bioluminescence.
Oh I agree new content is great, but thats exactly what I would want – single playered instances for Story (ie. LS3) and Raids kept as Raids (I really don’t need the raids to be drowned in Lore infact most were not; most of the bosses in ICC were just made up on the spot to fill a slot). Mordremoth should be killed in the main story line that everyone can do – raids are a side mission for those interested.
But you’re not really being fair trying to compare multiple LS instances which revolve around Story (the S in LS) to a multiplayer Raid revolving around boss mechanics and team fighting.
(edited by Coulter.2315)
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.
And there you’ve said it, “they will maybe do it a few times for lore” that is not retention… That is one run to see the cutscenes and dialogue if you’re paying attention, that is not worth adding to the game. Just go watch WP anyway for Lore :P
Also I’m not sure how heavy our GW2 raids will be on “story” all we know atm is a pact squad is missing and there seems to be a Bloodstone piece on the floor. Interesting no doubt but adding LFR (and all the trouble it brings – people feeling forced to grind it for extra loot drops and resentment over the cheapening of raids and extra development time required). Uuurgh it was not a provably good thing for WoW and all my memories of it were awful and please don’t bring it here.
I think it’s retention…People mostly do single-player campaigns in real-time strategy games such as starcraft and warcraft (not wow) for lore (you don’t need so many episodes to learn how to use the units), but these campaigns are created anyway.
You’re having now to reach for RTS to make your point, you know its not retention to do something once every 6 months in an MMO (every 6 months being their pencil’d in time table for raid releases I think I read – if its a different number read that instead).
One evening every 6 months to be rushed through a raid by strangers zooming off ahead to want to grind through it on easy mode would not give you a good lore experience anyway – I would point to Nobbel who does WoW lore and he actually gets guilds to run him through the real raid instances instead of doing LFR.
It won’t retain retiring raiders, if they’re stickin around in the game for 6 months for 1 evening of LFR then they are clearly staying for other things (which is a good thing) and we don;t need this abomination brought to our shores.
you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.
Exactly, but the problem about it is that they designed and sold the game to someone…and after a while, totally changed direction.
Erm.. They announced Challenging Group Content as soon as HoT was spoken about – you were sold CGC and Raids, if you bought HoT you’re getting what they advertised. HoT was sold on the inclusion of raids (dsignated CGC initially but raids have been spoken about for a long time now), you cannot buy it and complain you were mislead somehow…
Challenging group content is not necessarily raids. As many have observed, if raids are implemented in a style similar to fractals, then it’s still challenging, without requiring people to have huge blocks of time for it.
The guy was complaining that he was missold HoT, CGC was on the cards from the start and EVERYONE wanted it to be raids (are you telling me you wanted a new kind of fractal?), it was raids – they employed a raid designer too.
Its just silly for him to say “Exactly, but the problem about it is that they designed and sold the game to someone…and after a while, totally changed direction.” when clearly HoT was sold on the platform it was.
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.
And there you’ve said it, “they will maybe do it a few times for lore” that is not retention… That is one run to see the cutscenes and dialogue if you’re paying attention, that is not worth adding to the game. Just go watch WP anyway for Lore :P
Also I’m not sure how heavy our GW2 raids will be on “story” all we know atm is a pact squad is missing and there seems to be a Bloodstone piece on the floor. Interesting no doubt but adding LFR (and all the trouble it brings – people feeling forced to grind it for extra loot drops and resentment over the cheapening of raids and extra development time required). Uuurgh it was not a provably good thing for WoW and all my memories of it were awful and please don’t bring it here.
you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.
Exactly, but the problem about it is that they designed and sold the game to someone…and after a while, totally changed direction.
Erm.. They announced Challenging Group Content as soon as HoT was spoken about – you were sold CGC and Raids, if you bought HoT you’re getting what they advertised. HoT was sold on the inclusion of raids (dsignated CGC initially but raids have been spoken about for a long time now), you cannot buy it and complain you were mislead somehow…
By the way, even after Blizzard implemented LFR in Cataclysm, most of the players who quit WOW when they no longer had the time for raids did not return to WoW, even though they played 30+ hours of WoW per week when they had the time. We can wait to see the same thing happen to GW2, or Anet programmers can learn from this and do it right from the very beginning.
People left in Cata because of many things (the giant wait between it and pandas with only an 8 boss raid for a year being a main issue), infact the raiding community is one of the strongest and most stable WoW has and in its current expansion the raids were the main target of praise. You cannot ask LFR to be implemented as a benefit to the system when WotLK didn’t have it and held onto its players better than any other expansion after (the current one dropping so dramaticly at the beginning of this year).
While I essentially agree with what you said regarding wow subscriptions, I’d like to mention that we are looking at different aspects. It is true that the raid community is stable in WoW, but the actual players who are currently aiding change over time. Most players who had the time for raids eventually quit raiding. My opinion is that, if Blizzard had implemented LFR much earlier, many of these players who quit raiding wouldn’t have quit the game entirely.
Well I was a very focused raider back in WotLK (came to the game late because I was playing GW1 ^^) and Cata, and LFR made me feel sick at how crippled and stripped down the bosses were. I actually ran them every week to try and get those set bonus drops to help out my performance in the actual raid with guild and I can promise you the moment I would choose to stop raiding that would not mean I had ANY desire to play LFR for fun (because it wasn’t fun, it was AWFUL).
Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.
@Warlock, would two LFG’s for dungeons be a good compromise? One random grouper that groups based on dungeon path chosen and language of server (EU side does have language specific servers). This is for the casuals who don’t want to play meta. The one we have now remains and is used for specific runs. The meta players and the teaching runs would be here. Or the groups needing something specific to get through part of a dungeon.
We have this already.
System 1 : Go to LFG, write : Path 1, all welcome.
System 2 : Go to LFG, write : Path 1, (insert conditions here).
@ Warlock, why do you need to “fight the zerker meta”? Just use system 1… Or system 2 and say “no zerk”. A meta will always exist, zerker is the current choice because of encounter/dungeon/fractal design.
this has been tried and after an hour of waiting(not an exaggeration) on multiple attempts, you see zerk group after zerk group fill and start while your group gets no players.
So that means the option you want isn’t popular, to the point where no one will join you for hours..
You’re either exaggerating or you’ve destroyed your own desires through proving no one wants it.
you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.
Anet always says that GW2 is revolutionary:P Well, actually Blizzard essentially managed to make all content available to everyone (or at least one version of it containing the entire story) after they implemented LFR. This is done even though their player base is more hardcore.
I know you’re joking, my point stands.
WoW kept its subs for longer and had better numbers in WotLK (which did not have LFR).
By the way, even after Blizzard implemented LFR in Cataclysm, most of the players who quit WOW when they no longer had the time for raids did not return to WoW, even though they played 30+ hours of WoW per week when they had the time. We can wait to see the same thing happen to GW2, or Anet programmers can learn from this and do it right from the very beginning.
People left in Cata because of many things (the giant wait between it and pandas with only an 8 boss raid for a year being a main issue), infact the raiding community is one of the strongest and most stable WoW has and in its current expansion the raids were the main target of praise. You cannot ask LFR to be implemented as a benefit to the system when WotLK didn’t have it and held onto its players better than any other expansion after (the current one dropping so dramaticly at the beginning of this year).
Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.
Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.
Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.
If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.
Progress is not reset.
Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?
No I think he meant your knowledge of the bosses you’ve killed will remain after the reset and your pulls next week will benefit from that.
When progressing through ICC Heroic in WoW we spent the first week dealing with only 2 bosses, by the end we could clear the whole thing in 1 evening (it had something like 11 bosses I think). Progression is not reset.
I knew that, as I helped my WoW guild learn the entire BWL in vanilla WoW. However, from my previous experience, I also learned that it is false that skill level is the only gating to raids. The amount of available free time is the primary gating. Furthermore, I also learned that 90% of the players who had the time for raids at some stage of their life normally stopped having such time sooner or later. Therefore, people who do have the time for raids now should know that what others are currently asking for will ultimately benefit them in a few years’ time.
Well you seem pretty interested in Raiding 10 years after BWL was released. Every day we can make the choice to spend our time differently – its entirely down to the individual’s choices – you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.
@Warlock, would two LFG’s for dungeons be a good compromise? One random grouper that groups based on dungeon path chosen and language of server (EU side does have language specific servers). This is for the casuals who don’t want to play meta. The one we have now remains and is used for specific runs. The meta players and the teaching runs would be here. Or the groups needing something specific to get through part of a dungeon.
We have this already.
System 1 : Go to LFG, write : Path 1, all welcome.
System 2 : Go to LFG, write : Path 1, (insert conditions here).
@ Warlock, why do you need to “fight the zerker meta”? Just use system 1… Or system 2 and say “no zerk”. A meta will always exist, zerker is the current choice because of encounter/dungeon/fractal design.
(edited by Coulter.2315)
Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.
Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.
Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.
If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.
Progress is not reset.
Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?
No I think he meant your knowledge of the bosses you’ve killed will remain after the reset and your pulls next week will benefit from that.
When progressing through ICC Heroic in WoW we spent the first week dealing with only 2 bosses, by the end we could clear the whole thing in 1 evening (it had something like 11 bosses I think). Progression is not reset.
Mantra Healing trait on Mesmer goes from 2600 -> 2900(ish) from maximising Healing Power, certain things really have terrible coefficients.
Most of the time, the bigger the initial heal, the smaller the coefficient (doesn’t always work like that tough, CD and radius have to be taken into account). In the case of mantra heal you are right you go from 2600 at 0 healpow to 2900 at 1500… but with a CD of around 5 to 6 seconds when use with mantra of pain…. ok this is an increase of around 10 % but the number are quite huge (520 to 580 hp per second passively for 4 people in your team when you spam it).
Now look at regeneration boon:
Basically you can maintain 100% uptime of regen on 5 people with illusionary inspiration at the cost of keeping your phantasmal warlock up (since it’s a range phantasm it is more resilient). With 0 healpow you heal 5 people for 130 HP per second. With 1500 HP (sans bonus from healing prism or other stuff) you manage to give 318 (=130+1500*0.125) HP per seconds, representing a global sustain increase of 144% for the entire team.
On the other hand, if one person double his DPS, the team’s DPS increases by 20%. That is the exchange between scaling : DPS scales for one fifth of the team’s when healing (since every outgoing heals are group wide) scales for 100% of the team’s sustain.
I really disagree with your assessments.
You compared one person doubling their dps (this is increasing stats and still using all their skills correctly to achieve it I assume) to get a 20% increase in team damage with Regen with max healing power giving a 144% increase in team healing (you just completely ignored self heals and other sources of healing from other team members and the fact regen will not stack with other sources of it). This was an awful comparison, shows us nothing. You tested 2 things against each other under different rules and restrictions.
The HPS on Mantra with maximum investment gained 60 HPS (with your numbers), IT IS NOT PASSIVE it requires a constant spam and channel to achieve and locks out a utility, not to mention HPS which can be interupted with forced dodges or plain old interupts, is EXTREMELY poor at reaction and requires proximity (this means you need to walk into where damage is being dealt to heal that damage). The skill is clunky and not just a passive HPS for you and 4 others. It scales horrificly.
Warlock: having my opinion being called absurd/ridiculous etc as happened in the first page of posts is insulting. everyone’s opinion is of equal value.
Because you said this :
“being kicked from a group because you are not the glass cannon meta should not happen and should count as a form of harrasment that is causing players to be excluded from content”
Which is ridiculous, there is nothing mean about that.
PvP.
more characters
((looks at dungeons))
((looks at open-world farming festivals- er, I mean “events”))
The Devs for this game don’t have the slightest idea what “top tier” players are capable of. Let them tune it for “all ascended” gear… If the first raid boss hasn’t been reduced to a roflstomp within 3 months that people are doing in all yellows just because they’re bored I will be STUNNED.
Hmm. Players killed it a man short in 5 hours.
Yeah. Not finding GW2 “challenging” group content all that intimidating.
Going to be a bit optimistic and assume the difficulty will continue rising quite heavily from the first boss onwards.
The first encounter might need to be tuned a bit better though towards the tougher end unless they intend on making the 2nd boss a brick wall.
It’s more a problem of people assuming that ‘difficult’ would mean ‘difficult for the top 1/10th of 1%’ as compared to ‘difficult for the top 15%’.
They’re very different things. Of course, that distinction is why the ascended thing makes no sense. For ascended to matter it would have to be the former.
Thats exactly why it was retracted and not true… I can’t believe people still believe it is… I mean its impossible to balance something so perfectly you can tell 5% difference would make a difference in a game mode played by masses of people with many random occurances and unknown classes playing.
It was just an aspiration – it was never true, just an employee misspoke.
If the “GW2 community is the friendliest community out there” as Anet touts then most likely OP, myself and others wouldn’t have an certain issue/s. Since its clearly isn’t the friendliest community out there hence we have some issue/s.
There are other ways to kitten the situation; you’re being in some way awkward, friendliest doesn’t mean “shares all JediYoda’s values,” friendliest just means most friendly (doesn’t mean will be everyone’s friend).
You could maybe try to make your own guild which you can build with likeminded people if you’re having trouble finding those preconstructed out there.
Oh you want to do the content by significantly altering the content? (then you wouldn’t be doing the content because its now different content)
If each boss were put into a separate instance, then:
1. The amount of player skill required is not changed
2. The boss mechanism is not changed
3. The story is not changed if you are required to get the achievement of completing the previous instances before entering the next (but you don’t have to do them in the same week)
Everything that is related to the lore and player skill remains unchanged, so I don’t see any issue of altering the content in this way.
Except it kinda kills the epic feeling of doing a Raid (which is kinda what they are going for).
Mechanically I suppose it doesn’t change much but how a game makes you feel is important.