Guild Wars 2

they made #3 too spammable, but then again, nerfing shadow return doesn’t exactly fix that problem. if the goal is to reduce #3 spamming they could’ve increased ini cost or reduced damage on flanking strike or larcenous strike.

— Shadow Return — this skill is certainly a culprit for a strong build but adding a cast time is going to have negative long term effects for thief sword builds — fear a thief with their stunbreak down after they use Infiltrator’s Strike = gg

Lol shadow return never did anything against fear ever since they removed the stunbreak. You still keep on running even after you port back.

if you give them healing signet and zerker stance they can pull that off too

jmatb.6307:

@ Excalibur

A: Total of current init with Quick Recovery and Sig use = 1.03
B: Total of init/second on Dec. 10 w/out Quick Recovery and Sig use = 1.00
C: Total of Dec. 10 w/Quick Recovery and Sig Use = 1.14

Current A + Klepto and Opp = 1.15
B + Klepto and Opp = 1.07
C + Klepto and Opp = 1.21

So if you run the same S/D build as before on Dec. 10 you get a .7 boost to init/second, not including the init you’d be getting from Infiltrator’s Signet.

Thief is fine on Dec. 10 quit freaking out guys

Current is 1.25 ini/s with a high regen build (i subtracted 0.08 and 0.09 from it since I don’t use signet use or kleptomaniac) not including infil signet (for example my S/P build I use for PvE: http://www.twitch.tv/sakraycore/c/3167174), . With a proper build yes you can easily extract 0.3 ini/s from opportunist even with low crit chance. It’s a net nerf no matter how you slice it.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Caed had a tough time at PAX for a whole host of reasons. None of which involved him bringing d/p shortbow, or how he used them.

Reasons don’t matter, only results do. And results indicate D/P + shortbow is now subpar and barely viable for tournament play.

Most of it is because other meta professions are just plain stronger though. Hambow, spirit ranger, condi necro.

ini gain is being nerfed by 0.12 ini/s though. you have to account for that

jmatb.6307:

Using this chart if you add up the total and the boosts from klepto and opportunist, it’s still higher than current, and not even including the bonuses from infiltrator’s signet.

You must have read the variance column and gotten mad or something that chart actually disproves your argument.

No it’s lower….

Did you even read the topic or you just skipped to the chart?

Initiative Regen
The passive Initiative regen will work exactly as shown on the spreadsheet, but active traits, like signet use, won’t unless you burn your signets every single time they come off cd… but it still shows how the change will effect (affect?) your ini gain on use.
The Total (2 Sig) etc. are just showing the regen with 2, 3, 4 signets equiped and again burning them exactly as they come off cd.
Opportunist is a 33% nerf in Initiative gain no matter what Crit Chance you have whether it is 4% or 100%. However the higher your crit chance, the more ini that 33% nerf becomes. If you run a high crit build, this is a significant nerf, more on this below.
Anet has mentioned that they want to reduce our dependence on Ini regen traits, yet for an S/D thief (10/30/0/30/0) running 1 signet and using Quick Recovery and Signet Use along with 65% crit change, you effectively lose about .02 ini per second… while keeping the same traits under the new proposal.
Remove Quick Recovery from your trait selection and you lose .12 ini per second. This new proposal doesn’t free you up to choose a different trait at all, it just shifts your regen around. You have to keep Sig Use and Quick Reco just to stay where you were pre-patch.
The guilty party here is Opportunist, don’t nerf this trait and you’ll actually free up a select-able trait and achieve what you’re trying to do.

Going by the chart, the net nerf is -0.12 ini/s if you add up the total variance changes.

I agree that it would be a big buff if opportunist did not get such a huge nerf. But as it stands it’s still a net nerf.

jmatb.6307:

I really doubt that calculation was done comprehensively lol.

Haste on crit buff, assassin’s reward, and the vulnerability stacking potential look really good with the init regen boost.

Edit: Math folks. Take the same traits in the patch and enjoy the results of your massive intiative buff. It will be too much initiative to even use lol

no, the math is comprehensive.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Proposed-Dec-10th-Changes-Some-Math/first#post3141423

critical haste, and assassin’s reward still won’t be used. sundering strikes good buff though.

i think it makes more sense for enemies to target squishies first, but with no holy trinity this might be a bad idea. this would mean that squishy would be even more useless, and they’re already in a bad position compared to the 2 god-mode heavies.

the initiative boost is cancelled out by opportunist nerf and other nerfs. it’s not a buff to initiative (actually a net nerf), it’s already been calculated.

i can’t justify hard to catch still.

30s cooldown can’t keep up with constant warrior stuns.

q,e,r,f utilities and elite
mouse #4 (side button) – dodge
mouse #5 (side button)- deselect target
ctrl – sheathe weapon
z – look backwards
scroll wheel button – AoE pick up items
shift – select

1) Do you have back up on a key @ all? I know a lot of folks, myself included, just took it off the bar because you can spin and run faster than backing up.
2) Where’s your dodge key? Dodge is such a huge part of our game that it’s one of the most important keys we could bind. It should be on a key that’s reachable regardless of which direction you are strafing/moving or which skill/utility you are using.
3) Heavy on mouse buttons for skills or utilities? (Razer Naga or equiv.)
4) Key to move forward? Or do you use both mouse buttons to free up a finger on the left hand?
5) Anything else that’s “obvious” to a veteran player (especially a pvper) but might be missed by us noobs.

1. yes, it’s very useful
2. mouse #4
3. mouse only got 2 extra buttons, i use both
4. yes i use w to move forward
5. keys like look backwards, deselect, and sheathe are not used by new players but very useful.

Sligh.2789:

This game is about balance. Too much armor, agro. Too much damage, agro. Too much buffing/healing, agro.
I play a balanced set and I don’t have a problem.

this, I don’t get targeted first ever because I run balanced atk/defense. but i can also handle it when everything in the room targets me at the same time, so it’s pretty stress free for me.

jmatb.6307:

Bad thieves will get nerfed hard, but the good ones will still be good, if not better than they were.

How do you know this, do you even play thief?

No offense, I understand the supposed reasoning behind the nerfs, just not sure if they took account PvE at all, as I never found the Hammer to ever be the most powerful Warrior weapon choice.

ANET balances around top-tier tPvP/actual tournaments.

My GS/LB regen bunker is 100% untouched by upcoming balance changes. (except combustive shot, but that’s pretty minor)

Didn’t use unsuspecting foe, hammer, or burst mastery. Was a beast, will continue to be a beast.

Nick.6972:

No. The agro is totally chaotic. I’ve seen bosses lock on me for literally minutes while playing my 2200 armor glass cannon thief.

if you’re dealing most damage, bosses will lock on to you.

i don’t think these nerfs are enough. healing signet is still the root of it all. then again, time will tell.

if the pattern of thief nerfs are anything to go by, you’ll keep on receiving nerfs for every successive patch until healing signet (ie perma stealth) is finally nerfed. by that time, not only healing signet will be nerfed, every single one of your weapon set will also end up nerfed.

Mrbig.8019:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Thieves are definitely receiving buffs for builds that lacked on initiative regen. Sword MH is pretty much being shafted, but 1/4s cast time is still pretty quick, you can dodge stuns with that. I can name several stuns right now that can be avoided with it. Obviously the direction they are going with the sword main hand is, if you are caught, you are caught, in that .25s you manage to get away you are rewarded with your life.

The vigor nerfs are acceptable, questionable why bountiful theft got changed but who knows, maybe it will get reverted.

And of course, initiative nerfs are going to happen when they increase the base initiative regen, not to surprising. Thieves overall were buffed, maybe some new builds can come to fruition.

The issue is that even with the cheese following shadow return instant nature, S/D thieves are barely on par with current meta proffs, which are not getting nerfed enough, while the thief is getting gutted.

Now thieves won’t be on par anymore.

if they nerfed hard engies-wars-necros-spirit rangers than i would have been fine with these brutal nerfs to thieves, but since it didn’t happen, i’m not fine at all.

I was the first advocating for an Inf strike nerf, but what is going to happen on 10th december is beyond silly.

the inf strike nerf you wanted, isn’t what everyone else wants. this is the nerf everyone else wants. they want to prevent shadow return being used to trivialize CC.

i agree with you that S/D is not viable anymore though.

that’s why my thief has 24XX armor. never want to go over 2500 armor and draw aggro from zerk guardians/ warriors.

Brutal Arts.6307:

Excalibur.9748:

My assumption is that shadow return will not be able to break CC with that 1/4 cast time so S/D is effectively dead in PvP.

It’s like a dream come true. Now if only phase retreat could get a 1/4 second cast time.

Don’t be that guy.

Even with shadow return working even while CC’d warrior still has the advantage in a fight against S/D.

Sanduskel.1850:

Honestly, the thief players who abused perma stealth brought much of this on themselves and many other nerfs. Hopefully with perma stealth somewhat nerfed other issues can be addressed.

what other issues?

It’s fine, thief was on life support already. I’m actually kinda glad they completely killed it off this time so maybe it can be rebuilt later.

As for theory crafting, it’s way too early for that. Those aren’t even conclusive patch notes anyways.

Drkxamas.6359:

Its a bit absurd to put a cast time on a stun breaker… I don’t understand their logic. If you don’t want us to spam this. Just increase Initiative cost and in turn increase to one more condition cleanse. So 3 To use and 3 to return and remove stun with two conditions. So that forces us to use it now more wisely. This is supposed to be special for main hand weapons…you cant treat this like its a shadow trap. At least shadow trap takes me 10,000 range back and regens. I can accept shadow trap cast time, but Sword main hand Infiltrator’s return change to a cast time? No this is lazy and absurd.

it won’t break stuns anymore.

it was on life support already.

this will be the final nerf to S/D because it will be dead with this.

Walker.3056:

Excalibur.9748:

Walker.3056:

Excalibur.9748:

My assumption is that shadow return will not be able to break CC with that 1/4 cast time so S/D is effectively dead in PvP.

With this both D/P and S/D will no longer be viable in tPvP so hopefully we can get some buffs to offset this.

D/P tpvp wont suffer to much since if you want it to be viable you are not going into SA trait line

Isn’t that just Caed who played glass D/P?

No thats any viable tpvp d/p build since if you go SA youfocus on invi to get many advantages and if you stay invi you cant cap or avoid others to cap wich will make your team suffer a lot for some selfish survival

IMHO ofc

So basically what you’re saying is D/P is still viable after these nerfs?

Last time I checked, D/P isn’t even viable anymore. Caed even quit and he is like the last thief to use this spec in tournaments.

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

and it even said so in the thread by a dev oO.

Oh a dev said this? I didn’t read that yet.

Btw there is a huge buff to every other setup,
namely 30% more ini regen.

Hardly a buff with huge nerf to opportunist. I’m sure someone can run some calculations but it’s safe to say there is no buff here, only break even at best.

Well honestly i’m not that familiar with my thief but my warrior whom
i’ve been playing since shortly after launch is looking forward to yet more
BP spam because, yes, that shuts us down entirely and every decent thief knows that.

I honestly don’t like seeing thieves being pidgeonholed into d/p,
s/d you could at least hit.

Does it? Just move out of the black powder and/or use longbow with cleansing ire (every warrior running longbow anyways considering hambow is meta). Thief does not shut down warrior in any way or else teams wouldn’t be running 2-5 warriors with no thieves anymore.

and it even said so in the thread by a dev oO.

Oh a dev said this? I didn’t read that yet.

Btw there is a huge buff to every other setup,
namely 30% more ini regen.

Hardly a buff with huge nerf to opportunist. I’m sure someone can run some calculations but it’s safe to say there is no buff here, only break even at best.

Walker.3056:

Excalibur.9748:

My assumption is that shadow return will not be able to break CC with that 1/4 cast time so S/D is effectively dead in PvP.

With this both D/P and S/D will no longer be viable in tPvP so hopefully we can get some buffs to offset this.

D/P tpvp wont suffer to much since if you want it to be viable you are not going into SA trait line

Isn’t that just Caed who played glass D/P?

My assumption is that shadow return will not be able to break CC with that 1/4 cast time so S/D is effectively dead in PvP.

With this both D/P and S/D will no longer be viable in tPvP so hopefully we can get some buffs to offset this.

Zacchary.6183:

Thief Exodus started months ago. Thief Exodus day is somewhere in august or september.

yes this.. thief is not even in a good state right now.

evilapprentice.6379:

Excalibur.9748:

evilapprentice.6379:

I don’t understand the evasion nerf without some other survivability changes. Thieves aren’t tough. They don’t get protection, blocks, or immunity skills. So now we evade less, can’t escape with Inf return anymore…and that’s it? No other changes to thief survivability?

I’m sure we’ll get it if we’re no longer viable in tPvP. But it’s a good start to kill off all the cheese specs.

I disagree that high evasion was a “Cheese spec” – do you know another way to survive as a thief other than evading attacks? You certainly don’t have the health/mitigation to just eat it.

Don’t bother bringing up Double S/D with energy sigils – that spec has been dead for months because it’s crap – yes, it was a troll spec, but it wasn’t effective, and has been buried.

Well yea, thief superior combat mobility combined with crippling enemy movement, infiltrator strike/shadow return, and good sustained damage to kill the opponent before he kills you. If it doesn’t go well then use stealth and/or mobility to disengage.

I think that is a better approach than spamming 1 move constantly and have everyone else call foul about “perma evade” even though we both know it’s no where close to permanent evades. It feels more legit to get your kills this way, a lot more like assassin.

evilapprentice.6379:

I don’t understand the evasion nerf without some other survivability changes. Thieves aren’t tough. They don’t get protection, blocks, or immunity skills. So now we evade less, can’t escape with Inf return anymore…and that’s it? No other changes to thief survivability?

I’m sure we’ll get it if we’re no longer viable in tPvP. But it’s a good start to kill off all the cheese specs.

As for everything else….. (?°?°? ?)

S/D #3 spam playstyle is also cheesy as hell. I did not play it that way (hardly ever use #3), but most other thieves actually did spam #3 nonstop.

I want the thief to be a high skilled profession, not newbie friendly, but rewarding if mastered and good for all game modes.

Right now we’re good for roaming and ganking some up levels, and killing some yaks. Pathetic in PvE, GvG, ZvZ, PvP which is basically everything.

It’s unfortunate that S/D, my main set will take yet more nerfs, but I think this is a good start to cutting down the level of cheese of this class. I don’t want to play a class everyone hates. I want to be good in PvE, WvW, dungeons, PvP, zerging, GvG , all modes like the warrior.

The nerfs seem pretty drastic to me (inf. strike, and opportunist stand out) but I’m sure we will get compensation as I still have faith in ANET.

RIP perma stealth, you won’t be missed.

I think that was the root of the problem with this class and why we get nerfed every single patch.

Maybe we can be good at something other than killing yaks or contesting enemy keeps now. (ie pigeonholed into the scout role)

As a thief player, I’m very happy perma stealth will be no more. Honestly that’s the cheesiest spec ever. And I don’t want thief to be only good for cheese or trolling.

I want to be play a highly mobile, evasive assassin who is fast and deadly and is also hard to catch.

I think thieves should be very happy about this nerf. It means we may be good at something else other than killing yaks or ganking lone up levels now.

nekretaal.6485:

Warrior is the strongest in melee. Healsig obsoletes ranged pressure, forcing people to 2v1 the warrior or try to out spike the strongest spike class with the strongest armor and most Health.

oh yea this is my problem with warrior. if they build to be really tanky they can force a 2v1. the regen just gets out of hand for 1 single person.

i was watching the shoutcast with 5 warrior team, and even the caster knows a single thief can’t bring down a warrior (the strongest burst class), you need at least 2!

can you make a video on how to kill ivor true shot, it’s one of the 3 champions that precedes horace.

all those weapons don’t make sense for a thief…

imo healing signet is better against burst builds than healing surge.

healing signet keeps your 20k+ HP topped off, so at any given time you can survive a burst, whereas you will be slowly whittled down with healing surge/mending and if you don’t heal at the right moment you’re susceptible to a burst.

Additionally, a lot of people time their bursts when they see opponent’s HP fall below 50%. With healing signet your HP may just never get to the 50% mark, so they won’t even try to burst you.

thieves guild.

My guess is healing signet lower HPS but can be improved more with healing power.

Unsuspecting foe moved up.

Doesn’t need a walkthrough but this takes no time for me to do whatsoever as well.

http://www.twitch.tv/sakraycore/c/3167174

It’s really really easy even for a thief, especially if compared to stuff like queen’s gauntlet or Liadri the concealing darkness. Don’t even need to dodge or move really.

Swords builds were actually able to kill other classes so that’s automatically OP and has to be nerfed. Only warrior can get to do that and not get nerfed.

Reroll a warrior if you wanna have fun.

tichorum.2415:

Sigil of Para was fixed; helped a lot of the stun issue.

You play a thief? S/D only removes ONE boon now…still has 338568238628712985986326532963240960434098760428923523068094782052982986583023762304923609487430698430905834232863209823086936 evades in a row, so no QQ from you is allowed

dude thief is bottom tier now, get with the times.

caed quit

if by false accusations you mean accurate accusations then you’d be right.