All is vain.
I signet: remove the stunbreak, have it remove cripple chill and immobilize while still shadowstepping you to the target. This would trade sustain for short term pressure.
Terrible idea. Stunbreak is better than cripple chill and immobilize.
Which is why the stunbreak should be moved to Signet of agility so you get the stunbreak and the possibility of dodging 2(3) more stuns. Similar in functionality to dolyak signet breaking stun then providing immunity to stuns for 8 seconds.
It’s really not the same at all. By shifting the stunbreak onto signet of agility, you’re forcing signet of agility/shadowstep on my bar while I want infil signet instead.
So, why not keep the stunbreak on infil signet, and then introduce stunbreak on SoA and SoS as well. Stunbreak > all.
In other words, you’re nerfing infil signet, and buffing SoA. Buffing both of them is better than nerfing the superior signet and buffing a worse one.
All is vain.
I signet: remove the stunbreak, have it remove cripple chill and immobilize while still shadowstepping you to the target. This would trade sustain for short term pressure.
Terrible idea. Stunbreak is better than cripple chill and immobilize.
All is vain.
Many thieves have already made the transition to war even before Dec 10 patch. Like Mr.Big says, S/D thief has not really been viable ever since war healing signet buff. Dec10 will take the stubborn few that remains.
All is vain.
Also, how about adding stun break to Signet of Shadows? Before you shout wtf, eles have a near-identical signet ‘Signet of Air’, which has the same passive and but the active blinds and breaks stun.
That would be an actual buff. I support it.
Infil signet I find though is a decent stunbreak which can be traited to 24s. A lot of people say it just teleports you straight back to the enemy which is true, but you can dodge cancel it to make it so you stunbreak on the spot and don’t move much towards the enemy.
All is vain.
Honestly, if Doom/SkullCrack/Updraft weren’t instant-casts, I would actually promote the IS change minus the cast time. It would encourage you to actually port back to dodge the stun/fear, as I often do to dodge Eviscerates or bait out Mind-Wracks. But in this current state of the game the mere thought is just outrageous.
from what I read, they increased cast time on skullcrack by 0.25 to 0.5s. that’s still pretty much instant cast but better than before I guess. not sure about doom or updraft though.
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so that once our time comes
Ahahahahaha good one.
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No, play warrior or guardian instead.
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Well, that’s if anyone would be stupid enough to run sword mainhand after these proposed changes
We’ve all said it, sword is dead after this patch. The only people who don’t think so are the devs…and people who don’t play thieves.
All is vain.
Jon, are you planning on nerfing shadow refuge and/or backstab? Those are like the only things left to nerf until everyone rerolls a different class.
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Welcome to the club brother. Took you long enough.
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Sorry for the typos, this is from my phone on the bus. Not for dec 10, because it takes time to do, but we are intending to make pistol whip into 2 skills(similar to flanking strike) so we can split initiative costs and balance canceling to chain stun. This is on the docket for the next patch.
Jon
Why are you splitting pistol whip? Can you explain it in more detail please? Are you doing it for PvE or PvP?
This skill is very important for PvE thieves, so hopefully you can balance it carefully so it doesn’t totally break thieves.
All is vain.
Does these change increase build diversity in any way? I never ran opportunist or any init recovery traits but I would still have to go into critical strikes for damage.
what do you mean you never ran opportunist. it’s a minor trait, everyone who went 15 in critical strikes had it.
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Honestly, everyone talking about the opportunist changes don’t really appear to be taking into account the new base init regen bump.
Even if you aren’t a huge fan of the opportunist change, its hard to argue that its as detrimental as the infiltrators return change – one potentially slows down the init regen of Cs specs a bit, and the Other reduces our tpvp viable weapon sets by 50%, down to one weapon set. Does everyone want to run the same exact weaponset with nigh identical trait setups for the next 3 months?
Quoted for truth. I already run d/p almost exclusively in spvp but I absolutely hate the idea of having no alternative when I want a change of pace.
QFT but replace D/P with warrior.
I wasn’t about to run S/D anytime soon in this pathetic meta, but this patch is gonna seal it.
All is vain.
1) Blackgate ??
2) Jade Quarry
3) SoR or TC ??
Currently, BG is 1st and JQ, SoR, and TC are all 2nd at the same time.
http://mos.millenium.org/na/
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Critical strikes is still mandatory. 30% crit chance, 30% crit damage alone can not be passed on.
Now add onto that executioner or hidden killer…..
CS tree still mandatory for non-condi thieves.
All is vain.
Which it will still do.
Well considering a reduction to init directly causes evade uptime reduction, stun uptime reduction, and even heal amount per second reduction (signet of malice) so it’s in fact a very big nerf even if init regen is slightly nerfed. While PW will still have evades, and stuns, it will not be able to provide that if you run out of init , so not really.
All is vain.
Activation time doesn’t matter because you can hit over 27 times per second so you can definately get 1 init back per second. If there was no ICD you can get 9 init back per second from opportunist alone. You would get 45 init back in the same time it would take to get 1 init back from the new system.
Despite PW having multiple attacks (which I missed the first time around), it still cannot be chained more than 3-4 times in a row. That means at best 3-4 init regen versus 1.X from the new regen rate and 1.X from the new Opportunity for around 3. So it is a net loss on this skill but likely fairly equal when coupled into a more realistic attack chain.
The test to see how this specific skill is effected will be how many of these can a player do in 60s in game now versus how many they can do in 60s after the change. My guess is the numbers will be pretty close.
I don’t think you have any idea how spammable PW is currently, even with low crit chance. I fully expect to be nerfed big time with the opportunist MASSSSSIVE nerf.
Here’s an example of PW gameplay with only ~50% crit chance coupled with opportunist and quick recovery: http://www.twitch.tv/sakraycore/c/3167174
Also I’m curious how one can be a thief yet not know PW is a multi hit skill Hmmmmm.
PS even a slight reduction to the spammability of PW can be the difference between life or death considering PW is not used just for damage. It also has evades and stuns.
All is vain.
(edited by Excalibur.9748)
Nope. Loved thief since launch, still do.
Sometimes it’s nice to be a “carebear” PVE player. Nerfs to me are just meh, I barely notice them. People are complaining about a 1/4 second cast time added to an ability; a quarter of a second !?!?!!!
….that measly 1/4s prevents it from being a pseudo-stunbreak. I know you rarely get CC’d in PvE but it’s kind of a big deal in PvP y’know.
All is vain.
Pistol whip hits WAYYYYY more than 3.3 times per second.
It cannot be activated quickly so the best PW can do is 4 activation per full bar of init. Of which a player will get back 3-4 init. In that same chain a player will likely see 3 init from the new system.
Activation time doesn’t matter because you can hit over 27 times per second so you can definately get 1 init back per second. If there was no ICD you can get 9 init back per second from opportunist alone. You would get 45 init back in the same time it would take to get 1 init back from the new system.
All is vain.
(edited by Excalibur.9748)
1 init per second from just opportunist with pistol whip. it doesn’t matter if it’s 30% of the time if you hit 9 times in a row on 3 different mobs at the same time.
PW has an activation cost of 0.75s. The only way to get 1 init regen per second from Opportunist is to have an attack that can be executed 3.3 times per second. PW isn’t even close. To my knowledge only the main hand dagger can attack that fast. For example:
10 PW take 7.5s. The absolute most you can get is 7 Init regen if everything crits AND you roll lucky getting Opportunist every time which is REALLY unlikely. Factor in the 30% and it comes in around 3 init over that attack chain.
New system: Player gets back 2 additional init from the new regen and almost 2 from Opportunist. This comes to around 3-4 init in the same time frame.
Pistol whip hits WAYYYYY more than 3.3 times per second. It hits 9 times every 0.75s. It can trigger 27 crits within the span of 0.75s on 3 mobs.
All is vain.
(edited by Excalibur.9748)
pistol whip? unload? do those skills have same attack speed as dagger?
hint: you can get 1 init per second with pistol whip currently.
Not from just Opportunist. PW has a .75s activation time and the current Opportunist can return 1 init per crit 30% of the time on a 1s cool down. This means with the current system even at 100 percent crit rate a thief would see 1 init about every 3 seconds from a PW/Opportunist combo. The new regen rate delivers almost that much without even traiting Opportunist or needing to land crits.
Attacks that have no activation costs can push 1 init per second from Opportunist but those live mostly in the dagger main hand and required a 100 percent crit chance over a chain of attacks. Even then the regen rate is only slightly lessened.
1 init per second from just opportunist with pistol whip. it doesn’t matter if it’s 30% of the time if you hit 9 times in a row on 3 different mobs at the same time.
All is vain.
eh critical strikes is still mandatory imo with good traits such as executioner and hidden killer.
i see what they’re trying to do, but it’s not a buff.
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Straegen, your math might be true about dagger builds. Now do the math about S/P PW thieves and P/P Unload thieves. Woops, what happened?
What happened… sword has roughly the same attack speeds as Dagger so Opportunist comes out about even. Pistol has slower attacks so it probably comes out a hair better with the changes. What is lost from Opportunist is gained in the init regen.
All the QQ on Opportunist at least so far looks to be unfounded.
pistol whip? unload? do those skills have same attack speed as dagger?
hint: you can get 1 init per second with pistol whip currently.
All is vain.
IS/SR needed a nerf, it acted as a stun break and a condition cleanse with no cooldown and 1200 range.
It doesn’t really matter whether it needs the nerf or not, it’s just going to be very subpar now.
Warrior is my second main but he doesn’t even have a third of the play time I have on my Thief because they’re so easy to play. Which makes it really boring imo.
I agree with you. But then again….you know…it also sucks to play an under-performing set and have to make up for the lack of results with extra effort.
All is vain.
Let me guess: you’re a S/D Thief.
Try the 1% Build, then tell us how you really feel.
I play S/P + shortbow or P/P in PvE, S/D + shortbow in WvW. GS/LB banner regen bunker warrior in PvP. I never liked dagger.
All is vain.
(edited by Excalibur.9748)
because IS/SR is super sweet. it’s also why i never got into dagger. could never justify losing that additional shadow step.
Looks like that reason is going away on Dec.10.
I got a decision to make, either reroll warrior or change weapon sets. But thief doesn’t even have any decent weapons left.
Warrior looking very promising! I’m looking at GS/LB w/ bull’s rush. It’s like a sword thief without the weaknesses.
All is vain.
i’m devastated – even in a patch that is supposed to nerf warrior, we get nerfed much much harder than warriors. Yes warrior hammer got like 20% dps nerf, but their mechanics haven’t been touched. the things that keep them alive such as healing signet, zerker stance? untouched.
these nerfs are easily enough to kill off sword thieves, but apparently ANET devs don’t seem to think so. I guess we’ll see. I HATE to say “told you so” because I’m usually not one to rub it in but looks like I’ll get to say it this time.
All is vain.
On the bright side, S/P will be better than ever in PvE. I doubt it will still come close to daggers for single target fights, but it’ll be improved for clearing trash and may be worth taking on boss fights with the occasional add.
I doubt that with huge nerf to opportunist.
All is vain.
he makes a good snack for the other 7 classes. please don’t nerf this!
All is vain.
sword/X was actually never that good in WvW for a main weapon. if specced for “perma evades” it’s good against elementalist and mesmer in their usual PvP builds but actually the mesmer can also spec to counter it and ever since larcenous strike shave, eles also have fair chance against it.
It’s about to get a huge to nerf to utterly obliterate the weapon. I wouldn’t advise trying to learn the set right now it’s pointless.
but just curious, i hope your trinkets are zerk right? cuz I don’t know if you can have just precision and crit, but no power.
20 in shadow arts but not choosing shadow embrace is kind of weird to me.
Other than that, in general your traits and utilities don’t really flow so well for sword thief, and actually seems more suited for a stealth build…
Overall I just kinda see alot of weaknesses to your build. Like I doubt you can catch a warrior, and I kind of doubt if you can outdps warrior regen, and condition removal is also a problem.
All is vain.
(edited by Excalibur.9748)
i like being nerfed every patch. i like playing high skill low reward class.
All is vain.
In WvW, I usually end up spamming cluster-bomb (shotgun style), since I don’t like roaming/scouting. But one of the two things happens when I do that… either I go in just a bit behind the frontliners (guards/warriors) and get quite a bit of kills but almost surely get downed (or even die) at which point i get called out by our commander … OR i go in with the backliners and barely pick up any kills either because they all got trampled by the frontline or the other backliners are able to do more AoE then my cluster and kill em before I can even tag em-bomb….
While I understand that scouting/roaming is fun for some people, it’s not fun for me and it’s also A LOT less rewarding. If anything, being requested to roam/scout is like a punishment to me.
So I think, my thief will become a berry picking mining lumberjack. But I hear that thieves are OP for that as well, as they are able to chop trees, pick berries, and mine vines faster then other classes! Even faster in stealth! So they will eventually, probably, get nerfed in that respect as well.
(Watch out crafting thieves! they’re coming after you as well! we all know you can craft 100 items a second when you stealth and craft)Well why did you roll a thief when you clearly actually wanted to play warrior?
Huh? Warrior can roam/scout and zerg, but thief can only roam/scout? Would you say to a warrior you clearly wanted to play a thief if the warrior says he wants to roam?
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IS is op but it’s the only thing keeping the weapon from sucking.
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massive S/D buffs.
They buffed it so much, they had to nerf it ever patch afterwards until it’s completely dead. We would like for ANET to never have buffed S/D.
All is vain.
ANET is kitten ed that thief was doing somewhat decent in PvE with sword/pistol, alas this can not be allowed to pass so nerf the hell out of its initiative regen, and call it a MASSSSSSSSSSSIVE buff!
So I take it d/d is the way to go ?
No. A warrior or guardian is the way to go.
All is vain.
ANET is kitten ed that thief was doing somewhat decent in PvE with sword/pistol, alas this can not be allowed to pass so nerf the hell out of its initiative regen, and call it a MASSSSSSSSSSSIVE buff!
All is vain.
have fun with your bunker meta without any S/D teefs around to deter it.
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stacking doesn’t work that well due to auto balance
Autobal very rarely prevents stacking. Just spectate, wait for autobal again and get back on the winning team. That’s how servers die right now. Everyone trying to game the autobal or stack at the beginning and you end up with a full server and 15 spectating a 3v2.
oic, yea it’s annoying when you have all these spectators all spamming the stacked team to make it more stacked
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stacking doesn’t work that well due to auto balance
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it’s okay just let thief class die in peace so we can all reroll warrior.
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Almost all wvw builds just got huge nerf with infusion of shadow tho…
Except base initiative regen was brought up 33%. It’s already been maths’d that it’s pretty much a great buff.. except for the cheese d/p permastealth guys.
It’s been math’d that it’s a MASSSSSSIVE nerf
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D/D super unicorn will feel it too.
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with the amount of warriors currently, S/D thief is already useless. After dec.10 S/D thief will be completely extinct.
All is vain.
lol warrior is a good main, it can’t really be nerfed since all the casual baddies play it expecting it to be ez mode.
the only thing that suprised me is how hard elementalist is in this game. it was very straightforward in the first guild wars.
All is vain.
I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.
It’s because the thief HAS to stay in the house for 4 seconds, so everyone and their mom just lays their AoE right on top of it and a dead thief pops out shortly after.
1. sacrifice HiS and Blind Powder
2. Drop SR away from location
3. watch zerg take dump in SR while you SS away safely
4. ???
5.Profit
lol go ahead and sacrifice 3 skills just to escape…
All is vain.
this is kinda a bad time to learn S/D. it’s probably dead after dec.10, so you’d just be learning a useless set.
MOST S/D thieves just spam #3, but I don’t know if that really is optimal because it makes them extremely predictable which can be bad because you’re vulnerable while doing larcenous strike.
i don’t really use #3 with my S/D thief because I like my thief fulfilling the “control” role instead of 1v1 duelist. with thief superior combat mobility and engage/disengage this is a niche it’s good at imo.
All is vain.
I’m not sure how Refuge would get you killed. When I’ve used it in the past I’ve gotten away the majority of the time without much trouble.
It’s because the thief HAS to stay in the house for 4 seconds, so everyone and their mom just lays their AoE right on top of it and a dead thief pops out shortly after.
All is vain.
i rolled a warrior, but i only got him to like lv3 or so. been using him in PvP though, and I hope to continue to use him in PvP as i suspect it will continue to be OP after dec.10 patch
All is vain.
lolz it’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE nerf for high init regen builds , -0.12 init/s to be exact.
All is vain.