Guild Wars 2

Ruru.1302:

Fivedawgs.4267:

I can’t belive the guy above me just called DH the 8th worst class; just to show you how ignorant some of the so called good players are. What you are experiencing OP is due to the MM algorithm. What happens in T5 or T6 is that your chance of having a 5 vs 5 are very small.

Or maybe you’re the ignorant one here? Ever consider that?

Of course I am, I am a socraterian by heart. But even I knows that DH isn’t the 8th worst class. And the rest, there is no need to bother…

I can’t belive the guy above me just called DH the 8th worst class; just to show you how ignorant some of the so called good players are. What you are experiencing OP is due to the MM algorithm. What happens in T5 or T6 is that your chance of having a 5 vs 5 are very small.

Here is what happened when Anet tried to steal my boat.

Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in Anet as well, but I just didn’t want them on my boat.

Lmao, stop bulking the poor Otto; his experience is lacking. The best way to convince him is to show him where he is wrong. Lmao grats on legendary 2 pal

Krysard.1364:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Amaranth.2517:

Leet0 got 3rd Legend in 22 hours

Now this season is truly a joke… Noone on lol or Dota can/could climb from the lowest division to the highest one in 22 hours. I am only getting one thing out of this : Insanely casual.

None of them has the same ranking system. HS does, and you can actually climb with ~hours as Leeto did

Hence why it’s a joke, since the matchups are all over the place. It’s a dice game:

1 vs 10 or 10 vs 1 or 5 vs 5.

Way too many variables for a competitive game.

Amaranth.2517:

Leet0 got 3rd Legend in 22 hours

Now this season is truly a joke… Noone on lol or Dota can/could climb from the lowest division to the highest one in 22 hours. I am only getting one thing out of this : Insanely casual.

I have to agree with lord Otto condj thoughts but warrior us far from a good place. Condi warrior reduces warrior to a single targeting machine; hence in team fight you are utterly useless. As a condi warrior, the best you can is hold either home or far point, but any player who knows how your build wold will be able to counter you.

Gs or Hammer warrior is the ideal build for teamfight since most of their skills focus at least 3 targets. And you can’t kill (ok maybe you can) a good ele with power warrior; most of the time you be able to pull that feat if and only if:

- the ele skills are on cd

Most playes/ warrior this season got to diamond with their warrior ( k pop come to mind; shin) I mean they played 90% of their game with warrior till diamond. WHy don’t you ask them if warrior is in a good place??? Trust me those players didn’t roll warrior as much as they wanted in diamond. Also, look around some warriors players have switched to rev.

Back to tier 2 once again, with one pip. And how broken are engi really?? Like why are they able to have 100% stability upkeep without using a single utility. The gyro, shield 4 and their traits…. just sad.

LordKage.9135:

500-0 games will happen but we can control the frequency by following the solutions I stated on top. In this case we don’t have enough context. The losing team probably gave up after the first teamfight, they maybe had a d/c or they probably just got completely stomp on. I am currently legendary on 3 accounts and I rarely see these games happen unless we are truly out comp / outskilled which is 1 in 200. The majority of games will end 500-250 unless its legacy of the foefire.

But diamonds in T6 / T7 can face T1 and T2 legendary players. It’s within the pip range.

Maybe I have missed it but which of your solution address someone in T7 diamond( because he is obv. Good hence dropping division won’t do it for him) or are you insinuating that you can actually get carried to legendary?? Hence those legendary folks, who got carried there, should drop division?

And the problem isn’t matching legendary against Diamond, we had those type of matches last season. The problem is when one side is CONSIDERABLY better than the other. So, I d describe the 500 – 0 gane as a 10 vs 1.

And they could have had a dc or whatever but the OP uploaded two pics. There is no need to have high vs Low. But I rest my case.

50 is overkill. It Depends on your S1 MMR as well, but on a new acount 30-40 should be enough.

But it would still happen in legendary/ diamond T7/ T6. Someone posted a game in upper legendary where he lost but 500 points and he had two legendary on his team. So the algorithm has nothing to do with people crossing/dropping divison that would def improved the game quality. Revamping the MM algorithm will prevent folks from losing gane by 500 or 450 points in T6/T7. Bease all good player will be grouped on one side.

I’ll fetch the post for you, if it’s still up.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Reached-the-matchmaking-plateu/first#post6048768

Having high vs Low is not competitve at all, no game uses it so why is Anet wasting their time on it?

I belive one is needed a 40 wins streak = 1200 increase in MMR points at least, some folks MMR were inflated and what not. Funny because last season, everyone wanted a MMR reset because of the bunker mesmer meta carrying people to legendary. But when you factor everything, a reset is truly needed but we don’t have to agree on it.

Lastly change the MM algorithm., HIGH vs LOW or vice versa is far from competitive.

Uhm… don’t you think a MMR reset is need at the moment? If so, what data are they going to use to segregate legendary/diamond players?

Celeras.4980:

My matchup results are not an opinion.
The teammates I am matched with is not an opinion.
The fact that you lost because the other team was better is not an opinion.
The fact that you don’t deserve to climb rating if your opponent’s are generally better than you is not an opinion.

If you’re trying to argue that they are I suggest you read your own definition again.

True those are facts, but your interpretation of the facts is an opinion. Notice opinions can also be based on facts. Just like two scientist can interpret the same facts differently.

Well, I know they are lots of good players in MMR hell, heck I have been beaten by premade with amber players on it. But at this point, the game is a dice with 3 sides: HIGH MMR vs LOW MMR EQUAL MMR VS EQUAL MMR and LOW MMR vs HIGH MMR. So it depends on which side of the dice the good MMR player will pull.

Class imbalance is also the reason why some good players ( rather stubborn, myself included ) are struggling on their way up.

Celeras.4980:

Nothing I said was an opinion. I stated my own matchups and what it means if you’re stuck. If you’re looking to nitpick, you’ll have to pick a different post other than a bullet-point of inargueable facts.

So how is that not your opinion, lol?? Like how are opinions made?? Facts are stuff like High MMR vs Low MMR. Opinion are what you believe :

o·pin·ion

??piny?n/

noun

a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

“I’m writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance”

synonyms:belief, judgment, thought(s), (way of) thinking, mind, (point of) view,viewpoint, outlook, attitude, stance,position, perspective, persuasion,standpoint; More

the beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.

“the changing climate of opinion”

an estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something.

“I had a higher opinion of myself than I deserved”

If you are NA, the good ones are

@shinryuku_ku pro warriir
@chaith
@noscoc
@gamingWithstorm
@hibify ( although, he gave up cause he is a …. lol)

But I’ll def check java stream as well. These are pretty much the only stream I watch.

Krysard.1364:

Jourdelune.7456:

Please, bring back meaningful matches where SKILL matter for BOTH team to have a competitive SKILLFUL match-making RANKED system.

Unrank is supposed to accomplish this, Ranked is about showing your skill, and so working as intended (with flaws, but duh)

Ah, then why the change of algorithm; I mean they have been using the same formula with minor tweak since the first season. And if what’s you are saying is true, why is chaith saying his game are INSANELy casual( as in players are underestimating their oponents skills and rather solo then teamed like they did last season) or why is Anet working on a different algorithm for season 3?

Fixed the insanely casual reference.

Mika.4791:

You know, it would be a lot more interesting to see you achieve this on a fresh warrior or any non HoT non meta spec/build in first place, just saying…

This dude this…

Just to clarify, I’ll post the MMR range again, and also new account get average MMR b3cause Anet said so.

<Ratings type="Ranked" reset="2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00" partial-reset="2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00"/> <Ratings type="Unranked" reset="2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00" partial-reset="2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00"/>

Chaith.8256:

Bringing a handicapped F2P account to Legend does not suggest that it’s not handicapped after all.

It suggests that the important part lies elsewhere, I would suggest teamwork & flawless rotations can overcome a mechanical handicap.

How much better is starter MMR than the veteran’s MMR you speak of? You really think starter MMR carries people? That, i’m not sure if I believe. I think any legend can take any tanked, 30 loss streak account to legend.

About your first statement, you said above only 66% of the profession had a shot at legendary but excluded it in your reply, or have you had a change of heart? True, it’s an handicap, but how much weight would it have on your team when most of your teammates have higher MMR than your oponents?

Second, although outdated these are the only numbers we cantrust:

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/> So, if 1500 is the default and you get to ruby by mostly grinding and to diamond with kitten or 60% winrate I wouldn’t be surpirsed if a veteran had a lower MMR than a new player ( 1500 MMR).

<Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Dyze.1580:

The current system isn’t based on Skill. That’s complete bullkitten.
It’s based on winning. Winning doesn’t take skill, winning simply takes class imbalance.

Whenever I join a match I check my team. If I see at least 2 imbalanced classes, I know I’m on the winning team.
If I only see one, it’s going to be a tight race.
If I don’t see one, I know I’m going to be farmed.

I see no skill what-so-ever in this matchmaking system.
The most important factor in the league is Pips. If you really wanted to impact the skill level or at least the teamplay rewards for players, then there needs to be a way to NOT lose a Pip.
Things like, losing while on a winning streak shouldn’t lose a pip, but simply lose the winnings streak.
Or, in a losing team you still retain your pip if you manage to get above ~180 in score.
If you still held your own, if you still fought to the bitter end, You should still be rewarded.

The system now doesn’t incentives fighting a losing battle. If anything it gives incentive to lose faster, rather then trying to keep fighting.
If everyone knew they could still fight to keep a pip? everyone would still keep fighting. even if they were getting farmed by the other team.
The way the game is now, you can clearly see which team is going to win from the first tussle at the mid-point. I’ve seen a few turn arounds, but they are very far between, and I’m pretty sure the league system that only rewards winning is the issue.
When losing players keep getting farmed, and keeps seeing the same pattern of imbalanced classes wiping them out.. what incentive do they have of even leaving the spawn? They’ll lose anyway.. why even run out to be farmed?
Fighting to NOT lose a pip would give incentive to lose with dignity and improve your game.

That, imo, would add skill to the leagues. A good player, in a bad team, would still rise to his proper level. Instead of getting penalized by other peoples mistakes or a bad matchmaking system.
Instead of just lucking out with imbalanced teammates, or changing to the OP of the week class.

I can’t believe I missed this post, strong points indeed. Your league progress is based on good your class is and not your skills, couldn’t agree more.

Chaith.8256:

Fivedawgs if it wasn’t implied when I said that premades are no obstacle, yes, there are way fewer premades for a solo queuer’s climb to Legend from Amber, as in, practically none. The ones I do encounter are only some casual friends who are just as often speedbumps to my solo/duo queue team.

It’s insanely casual at the moment. Since premades are so unpopular, and getting wrecked their fair share, I even question how matchmaking treats them, but have no first hand experience because never once have I team queued in S2. Does anyone have even some bad anecdotal evidence to support premades wrecking people, like there normally is? I haven’t seen a lick of it.

It’s so insanely easy to solo queue to Legend if you are actually a strong player, this is why premades are not born out of necessity for the strong. Everyone is naturally falling into a solo/duo playstyle.

Any premades that form as kind of like a coalition of people who are tired of being stuck in ruby, I have a very sinking suspicion that they get wrecked by Diamond/Legend solo queues very hard if they were to stay together.

Before I go any further, allow me to make two assumption, the first being that’s 15% of gw2 players are either Top of the food chain or upper average; Consequently the remaining 85% are average and below.

First bolded statement, true premade across division are getting wrecked but that’s what Anet wanted to fix, ergo a new type of pre made has emerged; although I am still getting crushed by some amber in premades and vice versa. The new type of premade is between division, and the propensity for the 85% to pre made is about 90%; I gage an anecdotal example above. So, what the system did here is lower the incentive of the 15% to premade while increasing the propensity of others. I ll further explain below.

And the reason why it’s easy this season for a strong player to climb to legendary “insanely casual” (aka not competitive) are two folds.

First, there is no need for pro players to premade since the system already designed better premade for them. Before I go any further, I ll admit that most strong players ( not all) have high MMR; with this S2 algorithm grouping HIGH MMR players against LOW MMR players. It’s pretty much make sense why Strong players are having a easy ride to legendary, because the system is favoring/catering to their needs, hence made sure that’s those pro players, the epitome of gw2, are all group together against low MMR players. And as a defense mechanism, average or strong players on the other side of the hill with low MMR have develop a defense mechanism whereby players wouldn’t even attempt to rank without a premade ( referring to my diamond example above).

The second one, is the lack of incentive…. I literally seen pro players stop taking rank seriously after getting their legendary wings, like what else is there for them to get. Some of these pro players pre made their way to legend last season, but this season they won’t even bother because they got all they wanted and are challenging themselves to make it there by solo ing.

Second bolded statement, that’s up for discussion; I have had ruby’s game which were better than legendary, of course as a whole most legebdary player would be able to trump them, still the corolation isn’t linear.

Finally, I want to touch on the f2p accounts, I think what’s being left out by f2p alter is that theit account have a pretty high MMR. It’s not like most of the f2p legend made an account at the start of the season then leveled it up to rank 20 and started pvp ing; and even then they would still end up with a higher MMR than some vets. If anything the f2p accounts are proving that core are still op par with elite specs but the topic for another discussion.

Funny enough, I know of at least 5 pro player who duo ed this season in amber/emerald, wierd indeed.

I never said you were in a premade; the fact are in the current meta, your chances of progressing are better in a pre made. Your or my experience doesn’t represent the bulk of gw2 players.

People don’t premade in legend because there is no incentive to. Just like people start trying build in legends because it’s the end game, I watched pro streamer on twitch and what I have noticed is that as soon as they reach legendary, they no longer take the game seriously. So they don’t premade in legend because there is nothing to strive for, it’s not because solo q er can beat 5 man premade.

Once again chaith didn’t say there were fewer premade overall. Check the post above.

About the screenshot, I have seen my share this season, also the map chat pretty much confirms my suspicion. Ele ruby t2 looking for a group every 2/3 min.

Stand The Wall.6987:

RUN VENTARI
for reals

The problem is you don’t play the game( especially conquest to win 1 vs 1). So by running venturi for the sole purpose of countering mesmer you might be hurting your team.

KreatE.7612:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Edit: This was a mouthful, but your questions seemed targeted directly at me based on your criteria. I hope you find this helpful! I look forward to seeing what you can come up with in s3!

Bolded statement, newflash you can only check for pre made at the end of the game. So I don’t know where you are getting your data. What I have noticed is that the number of pre made have increased, since it’s the only way to level up.

Data is from my own experience, and as someone who is familiar with enough of the top players to immediately recognize a good team by players alone, I can tell you (as Chaith has), that no top teams are queuing this season. ANYONE in legend will tell you as much. I can’t say as much for the lower divisions because I’m not in them, but any teams NOT in legend are 100% beatable. As Evan Lesh even said, when he queues up with his friends, he still plays like a solo queuer. Unless its in legend, you can overcome teams with personal skill.

[/quote]

First don’t speak for chaith, here is what chaith said :

Chaith.8256:

For everyone blaming premades for poor match quality, or a loss of prestige in hitting legend, did you even play through the league content?

I’ve solo queued to legend on multiple fresh and my old accounts, in both season 1 and season 2, and season 2 progression might as well not be influenced by premade groups at all . My progress has never once been blocked by unbeatable premades in season 2. And I’ve not seen any screenshots like the abundance of premade vs. Pug games from season 1. Any one have any evidence to the contrary, or more experience in climbing the ladder, or are all the dissatisfied players theory crafting why it’s unfair they are failing at the learning curve?

The ladder is more or less completely solo or duo in S2. It hurts my brain to see so much harping on this issue when the League is so casual that practically nobody even bothers 5 man grouping.

So chaith isn’t saying that the amount of premade this season is less than the previous one, his point is no pre made was able to hamper his progress this season; one thing come to mind (no bunker mesmer).

Second, legendary doesn’t represent the bulk of gw2 players; idk if you are new on the forum but the consensus around these water is that you progress better with pre mades. So, unless you check the scoreboard at the end of each game, you are just spewing hot air; As I have pre made 10 times more this season than the last one. And I don’t believe I am part of the minority cause of you have to do is stand in HOTM, it won’t take 2 min for you to see : ele emrald t4 looking for group.

KreatE.7612:

@EvanLesh

To preface your overall questions before I answer them so you know where my opinion is coming from : I’m a strict solo queuer and I got legend very quickly. I even made a post a few weeks ago about my 50 win streak getting there (d5 I think before I lost my first game, played over the first few weeks not the first couple days). Afterwards, I basically instantly stopped queuing into ranked after 1-2 games with 10+ min queue times. The reasoning was initially that yea, it was just the queue times and I had to take a break from burnout, but then the removal of the average queue time estimate makes me not even want to queue up at all when I log in because I can’t tell if it’ll take me 10 minutes or an hour to queue. The chance isn’t worth.

Now:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

For me personally, I have a several suggestions:
I would start by just re-adding the average queue timer. If I KNOW the queue times are lower than average, than its likely the legend queues are reasonable (the legend queues were always much longer the the time showed, but you could make an educated guess to how long you would be waiting.)

Quicker queue times in general would be great incentive, but that requires a higher population to pull from. You mentioned earlier that theres a balance between s1 and 2 where the game could make more balanced games while still separating at the top players, and I think this would be a big help in the overall experience and therefore overall population. Coming from experience, had I not climbed ultra quickly from ridiculously lopsided games for my first ~40 games, I would have queued up for more overall games. Even if I’m matched with poorer players on my team for the sake of a more balanced match, I’m ok with this because the games are more enjoyable overall if they are close games. Say I had a 60% win rate climbing up, not a 100% win rate it could have taken me 3-4x as many overall games to get to legend.

On your last question, what about alternative things to do in the wait time, I would be most interested in just playing pve while in queue, but as thats not an option, perhaps hotjoin. If I could work on my reward tracks by playing 2 games in hotjoin or unranked I would be much more interested in queuing up for legend because I can do something instead of afk for 30 minutes to miss the popup and get 5 minutes of dishonor (this happens to me too much) I think this is a a good suggestion overall.

On that note, give me another 10-15 seconds to click join on the popup!

Chaith is also right in that there are almost 0 premades in s2, which is AMAZING compared to season 1 in my opinion where every match as a solo queuer you end up against an esl team and you might as well afk after you sat through a 20 mintue queue, but this effect is a result of long queues and casualness in s2, nothing else. Bring solo q back and perhaps introduce automated tournaments like starcraft 2 introduced where groups can sign up for with additional rewards. Solo queue gives a pyschological effect on players where they feel the game is fair, even if the games were ALREADY fair. But that FEELING is IMPORTANT.

Edit: This was a mouthful, but your questions seemed targeted directly at me based on your criteria. I hope you find this helpful! I look forward to seeing what you can come up with in s3!

Bolded statement, newflash you can only check for pre made at the end of the game. So I don’t know where you are getting your data. What I have noticed is that the number of pre made have increased, since it’s the only way to level up.

@resjudicator. BTW dude you input might be helpful on this thread,
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Your-Top-5-Suggestions-to-ANET-sPvP/page/5#post6047622

You seems to know what you are talking about.

Chaith.8256:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Chaith.8256:

For everyone blaming premades for poor match quality, or a loss of prestige in hitting legend, did you even play through the league content?

I’ve solo queued to legend on multiple fresh and my old accounts, in both season 1 and season 2, and season 2 progression might as well not be influenced by premade groups at all . My progress has never once been blocked by unbeatable premades in season 2. And I’ve not seen any screenshots like the abundance of premade vs. Pug games from season 1. Any one have any evidence to the contrary, or more experience in climbing the ladder, or are all the dissatisfied players theory crafting why it’s unfair they are failing at the learning curve?

The ladder is more or less completely solo or duo in S2. It hurts my brain to see so much harping on this issue when the League is so casual that practically nobody even bothers 5 man grouping.

Very true, but you are assuming that everyone runs scrapper/ core engi ( one of the opest class atm). And you can test their theory by purposely losing 20 or 30 games in row, I wonder if that ll help you better understand their perspective.

Finally, a fresh account MMR can be better than a vets MMR.

No, not assuming people play Engineer, as 66% of the professions have zero handicap hitting legend.

And I’m not sure sure I agree with your assessment of ‘core engi OP!’

Plus, what class one plays doesn’t have anything to do with my point which was that premades are simply the fall boy for some who would rather be stuck on that, than implement good advice. Same as having a worse than starting MMR. It’s not like people are just randomly awarded those

And no, I’ll not throw 30 games thanks, pretty sure my teammates would not enjoy that.

I watched you climb through the ladder with condi engi on your EU account or is that not considered core?

And also, in amber you don’t lose any pips, hence why I suggested it.
True people earn their MMR, there is obv. nothing wrong with that. The problem begins when the system thinks a diamond player, tried to get to legendary last season, with a 500 MMR has the same skills with an amber of the same MMR, or that a new players with a 1000 MMR is more skilled than the diamond player aforementioned.

DanyK.3842:

You’ll just have to take my word for it, there were no AFK’ers (at the beginning), though it seemed like a trend that at least 1 person did say they’d go afk after the first wipe (usually on mid, because of wrong focus target).

I gave you another picture as you can see I did everything I could that game. Those points were coming from my efforts of stealing a beast and capping far after beating someone 1v1.

I had way too many games in this season, when we beat the opponent 500 to 0 where they had no chance. It’s not much more fun the other way around either.

Wow another lopsided games, I swear they were 2 invisible fakers on this game because you can’t lose by 450 point in diamond. Op are you sure your teammates weren’t bots?? I mean Anet MM algorithm is competitive because 75% of the time you get 7 vs 3. So the competition is there. My take is you had bots in your game.

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

Wait, you must have no skill. If you lost. Try learning the builds and classes and when to use each. Try to learn the maps and rotations. At least that is what I was told at a much lower plateau.

No don’t be inconsiderate, all the OP has to do is listen to the demi gods and post a video of his game; so the demi gods can decide if the OP is worthy for heaven or not.

Burn.5401:

I love these screenshots at the end of a game that are supposed to prove something. Bring a recording of the match if you want a proper explanation. Hell, you might’ve had an AFK player and we’ll never know that, no? Steamrolls never happen without a reason. Yes, they also exist in division 6.

Only one afk? You mean to tell us the op team couldn’t even cap a point because of one afk? I suspect there were 5 or at least 3 fakers. So instead of going home, the op and his other teammate went mid and far respectively.

Kuya.6495:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Kuya.6495:

This thread and this league season embody the contradiction between setting up a competitive ranking system vs. being a private company that needs to please its customers.

On the one hand, a competitive system seeks to show who is the best and thus requires that many have their egos shattered, but a private business model requires an organization to placate customers to keep them satisfied and this requires feeding your customer’s ego for revenue.

It’s interesting to watch really.

Very true, especially when this competitive system groups all good players together and match them against bad players. A sight to be seen indeed.

Of course. Professional sports teams only choose the best in order to compete with other teams composed of the best players.

A model that mixes and matches players of varied skills levels, sets them against teams of similar aggregate skill level and artificially seeks to create a 50% win rate is not meant to be competitive, but to create a false sense of competency on the part of the customer and make them feel satisfied.

In theory, a 50% win rate should be reached eventually as every player reaches the division that matches their skill level, the question is, if anet wants to keep leagues competitive, whether players are reaching divisions that reflect their skill level fast enough. IE: where they don’t lost every match they play for weeks straight. Or, how long should a average or low skill player be expected to suffer through losing streaks until he finally reaches the division he is meant to be in according to skill level where his win rate approaches 50%?

Of course, if anet were to find the answer to that question, it still wouldn’t stop players who reach the division that matches their skill level from complaining that they don’t feel their skill level deserves such a division. You would still get ruby players saying they shouldn’t stay in ruby.

I agree that why I have always wondered why folks call games such as lol, Dota or CS:GO competitve. I can’t belive they still use the 50/50 formula, tbh that’s NOT competitve. You only get competitve games when 7 is match against a 3. 5 vs 5 is just ridiculous. Hopefully, those games will learn from us.

Lol Op, but I thought only noobs( amber/emerald) were supposed to complain about the system? ? And that blowouts were specifically made to segregate folks into division. You mean to tell me you lost a game 500 – 0 in diamond/ legendary?? How is that possible??.

/s

Joke aside, if you don’t want to hurt yourself, I ll advise you to take a break or team up with a friend because it gets worse from there. This is what most folks have being talking about. X vs X is neither fun nor competitve. And your screenshot is the prime example.

Chaith.8256:

For everyone blaming premades for poor match quality, or a loss of prestige in hitting legend, did you even play through the league content?

I’ve solo queued to legend on multiple fresh and my old accounts, in both season 1 and season 2, and season 2 progression might as well not be influenced by premade groups at all . My progress has never once been blocked by unbeatable premades in season 2. And I’ve not seen any screenshots like the abundance of premade vs. Pug games from season 1. Any one have any evidence to the contrary, or more experience in climbing the ladder, or are all the dissatisfied players theory crafting why it’s unfair they are failing at the learning curve?

The ladder is more or less completely solo or duo in S2. It hurts my brain to see so much harping on this issue when the League is so casual that practically nobody even bothers 5 man grouping.

Very true, but you are assuming that everyone runs scrapper/ core engi ( one of the opest class atm). And you can test their theory by purposely losing 20 or 30 games in row, I wonder if that ll help you better understand their perspective.

Finally, a fresh account MMR can be better than a vets MMR.

Kuya.6495:

This thread and this league season embody the contradiction between setting up a competitive ranking system vs. being a private company that needs to please its customers.

On the one hand, a competitive system seeks to show who is the best and thus requires that many have their egos shattered, but a private business model requires an organization to placate customers to keep them satisfied and this requires feeding your customer’s ego for revenue.

It’s interesting to watch really.

Very true, especially when this competitive system groups all good players together and match them against bad players. A sight to be seen indeed.

I doubt they will be any Esport this season, the challeneger cups weren’t even broadcasted live. I d be surprised though.

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

I dont believe the MMR part one bit. Currently 75% of my games already start with a disadvantaged team composition. Like 2-3 thieves, guards and warriors on team.
Today I even had a game with 2 thieves and 1 relogged thief so we had 3 thieves in total. Needless to say we lost hard. Outrageous matchmaking for diamond division.

You don’t have to.. all you have to do is look at the algorithm and what he is saying, there is no corrolation.

ResJudicator.7916:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

Both of your bolded statements have to be backed up, or you are just spewing hot air. Here what Anet says ( I know the information is dated but there is nothing else out there for us to rely on). I’ll highlight the important variable for you.

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” ( display the max,lowest and avearge MMR possible) max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/>
(Now here is the deviation, that’s is how much it changes upon win/loss) <Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Based on this, it’s pretty clear that the other team MMR does matter, but to an extent, when it comes to your rating. You can lose/gain between 350 MMR point or 30 MMR point per games. Let’s say going up against the abjured resulted in a 30 MMR point loss; after 10 losses you be around 1200 MMR if you were around 1500. So, how are these numbers not significant?? I could be wrong though.

In Glicko2, the “Deviation Default,” “Deviation Min,” and “Deviation Max” values are multiplied by a function of your volatility to determine the actual change in your rating. (See http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf, starting at page 4). I can’t copy/paste the actual formula so I’ve provided a link instead. (Note: It’s not a straight up multiplication, but the volatility factors into the final ratings change). So the actual ratings changes are going to be lower than what you provided.

Also, there’s nothing wrong with your MMR going down by a meaningful amount if you lose 10 times in a row (even if it’s to the Abjured). But if you lose to the Abjured twice, then win vs. a team that’s closely matched to yours, then you could have a net MMR increase (using the information you provided). So again, the primary impact on your MMR is going to be all of the games where your MMRs are relatively close. This goes back to my earlier point about how “MMR hell” is an issue only when there aren’t enough weak players to form a competitive 5v5 (see above for suggested solutions).

Also like someone stated below me, MMR is only taken into account to match you with similar folks. So losing 10 games in row, might be a thing depending on which side of the MMR you ended up in. Because there is no corralLatin between your team MMR and the opponent.

That’s a separate point, and I agree with it. If your MMR is below-average relative to other players in your pip-range, then you’re going to lose more often than win. Just like if I became an NBA player, whatever team I join is going to lose more often than win (assuming that they’re forced to field me, rather than keep me on the bench).

But let’s be real here: the people still stuck in emerald/sapphire/low-ruby are not going up against the Abjured in unwinnable matchups. Using your own logic, all of the high-MMR people should already be in diamond/legendary by now.

Aren’t they? (Just to clarify most players around my unrank bracket are) I agree with much of the above post. But in the real world as you said, don’t they have grounds to complain? It like a loop hole on a tax code, not everything has to use it but as long as it’s there, why not take advantage of it.

But you def make great points, and also they don’t have to be match to the Abjured, the outcome of a 1 vs 10 (the abjured) is pretty clear; those people (myself included) might be experiencing 4 vs 5 or 3 vs 6. Although, it’s not hard to beat those odds, that’s still doesn’t change the fact that one side is favored over the other hence the loss streak.

ResJudicator.7916:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

Both of your bolded statements have to be backed up, or you are just spewing hot air. Here what Anet says ( I know the information is dated but there is nothing else out there for us to rely on). I’ll highlight the important variable for you.

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” ( display the max,lowest and avearge MMR possible) max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/>
(Now here is the deviation, that’s is how much it changes upon win/loss) <Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Based on this, it’s pretty clear that the other team MMR does matter, but to an extent, when it comes to your rating. You can lose/gain between 350 MMR point or 30 MMR point per games. Let’s say going up against the abjured resulted in a 30 MMR point loss; after 10 losses you be around 1200 MMR if you were around 1500. So, how are these numbers not significant?? I could be wrong though.

In Glicko2, the “Deviation Default,” “Deviation Min,” and “Deviation Max” values are multiplied by a function of your volatility to determine the actual change in your rating. (See http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf, starting at page 4). I can’t copy/paste the actual formula so I’ve provided a link instead. (Note: It’s not a straight up multiplication, but the volatility factors into the final ratings change). So the actual ratings changes are going to be lower than what you provided.

Also, there’s nothing wrong with your MMR going down by a meaningful amount if you lose 10 times in a row (even if it’s to the Abjured). But if you lose to the Abjured twice, then win vs. a team that’s closely matched to yours, then you could have a net MMR increase (using the information you provided). So again, the primary impact on your MMR is going to be all of the games where your MMRs are relatively close. This goes back to my earlier point about how “MMR hell” is an issue only when there aren’t enough weak players to form a competitive 5v5 (see above for suggested solutions).

Also like someone stated below me, MMR is only taken into account to match you with similar folks. So losing 10 games in row, might be a thing depending on which side of the MMR you ended up in. Because there is no corralLatin between your team MMR and the opponent. So the MMR hell is actually a thing if you factor everything.

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

Both of your bolded statements have to be backed up, or you are just spewing hot air. Here what Anet says ( I know the information is dated but there is nothing else out there for us to rely on). I’ll highlight the important variable for you.

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” ( display the max,lowest and avearge MMR possible) max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/>
(Now here is the deviation, that’s is how much it changes upon win/loss) <Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Based on this, it’s pretty clear that the other team MMR does matter, but to an extent, when it comes to your rating. You can lose/gain between 350 MMR point or 30 MMR point per games. Let’s say going up against the abjured resulted in a 30 MMR point loss; after 10 losses you be around 1200 MMR if you were around 1500. So, how are these numbers not significant?? I could be wrong though.

Daroon.1736:

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

Could you perhaps answer this one simple question – What was the PRIMARY aim of introducing the league format?

Was it to attract more players into PvP or was it to provide a way for elite players only to earn prestigious rewards and titles?

If it was the latter, then your S2 matchmaking is absolutely working as intended and should not be changed..

If it was the former though, then may I suggest that after the great job with season 1 where the matchmaking was fair and provided a fun experience for everyone, it can’t be much of a surprise that you are now seeing the numbers of players willing to participate this season, fall off a cliff.

If you want, PvP to forever be a little niche part of the game, then continue on the current course, but if (as I suspect) you want to try and build on the numbers achieved during season 1 and expand the player base, this horrible, unfair matchmaking system you have in place at the moment, that is frustrating and alienating players needs to be changed NOW.

Well, that was a nice question indeed. But at this Pont Anet aims is not even a problem (since some PRO players arent enjoying S2) , it’s their MM algorithm that’s faulty. No company which is serious about their product matches X vs X.

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

How about asking the question what would make all the ranked players happy to keep playing the game, cause right now I am disheartened and completely de-motivated by the system. Its making me hate spvp.

Why are you disheartened? Is it the inconsistency of match quality?

Yes, most matches are blowouts even in diamond division. I rarely get close matches.

Insert even in legendary, I have never thought in my life I d see a 500- 100/200 game in legendary.

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

PowerBottom.5796:

I love how everyone, regardless of games played, if they ever even played in a semi-competetive team or not, which league they are in etc, always assume that they are doing nothing wrong….

And at first glance I see several things the OP could’ve done better… -.-°

Never once suggested I was leet or that I did nothing wrong. Please point out all that you observed was wrong from glancing at a screenshot. The original post was a general statement about AFK’s and people who don’t know what they are doing. The screenshot presented evidence of an AFK…which was actually not AFK, but rather, running around the map avoiding everything, intentionally throwing the game. And I was RANDOMLY matched with that player 3 times in a row.

Sorry Op but you are making way too much sense for the DEMI GODS. DEMI GODS don’t read post, they answer based on their understanding of the title/comments in the thread.

vlad.4871:

Reached legend 5 days ago and i made a f2play account 1 day ago..i have no problems wining games at all atm i am close to ruby.

So what is this supposed to mean? I mean new players start with average MMR, and in a real world, I d expect most gw2 players to be below the average range or am I wrong?? And if that’s the case, don’t you think, at this point with hundreds of folks going through loss streak, the field was already leveled for you?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

If I may what is your definition of skill? ? Grouping best players together? ? I know lots of pro players who have complained about the current MMR. So is being part of a premade considered skill?? Once they exponentially increase ones winrate??

Krysard.1364:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Storm.1653:

well torment does not do much damage if you don’t move, and confusion is useless unless you use a skill. my advice, stand still and don’t use any skills

So you ate sling him to die without putting a fight?

Actually by standing still and just using blocks/evades/condi cleanse you can tank a condi mesm for a while

Confusion does more dmg on skill activation, although you are taking less dmg by standing still( from torment); using a block would negate what you are trying to do ( that is decrease the dmg taken).

Grort.2750:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Storm.1653:

well torment does not do much damage if you don’t move, and confusion is useless unless you use a skill. my advice, stand still and don’t use any skills

So you ate sling him to die without putting a fight?

Shield skill block while waiting for torment and confusion to end, staying stationary?

Lol, aren’t you forgetting about confusion? ?

Very legit post, I can’t help it but wonder how bad are the revs I am beating. Stab on dodge?? kitten , revs sure are spoiled kids. And @ephemeral, dude that won’t change a thing, a good players would be able to counter any combo you come up with on your warrir. 6ou will get him once, but no twice. And the other class are obv. Op er than warrior. So, we need some love.

Also increasing the threshold on weakness ( def minor 3) to 50% would help a lot as we would be able to land or blow/ or at least so down the target.

Storm.1653:

well torment does not do much damage if you don’t move, and confusion is useless unless you use a skill. my advice, stand still and don’t use any skills

So you ate sling him to die without putting a fight?