I want a system that, statistically, both teams upon entering the match have an equal chance at winning.
Like if those same teams play 10 games, each team would win 5.
This …
This….
….. is just a bad system for a ladder that is devided into divisions because it would mean bad players will face bad players only and good players will face good players only. This leads to the fact that bad players will progress as fast and as much as good players will do and in the end you can’t say whether the player is good or bad because they are in the same division somehow.If you want sth like this ( which is probably the most balanced mm) you have to change the whole system of the seasons.
I believe he is saying he want a system where the average MMR of one team is taken into account and match against another t3am of similar MMR. As for the team composition, we(at least i) still have no idea how it would work. They could take player from the same divison and match them up against one another assuming their respective MMR are similar. So you could have a 1000 500 1000 500 1000 vs 750 750 1000 800 700. And it’s anet job to make sure that low mmr vs low mmr doesn’t happens by restrictions the number of low mmr player per team (just speculating here). But a system like this, which lol or dOta uses, would be a lot better than what we currently have.
I want a system that, statistically, both teams upon entering the match have an equal chance at winning.
Like if those same teams play 10 games, each team would win 5.
This …
Ok I am on my phone but I will try my best.
If i wanted to make an argument, it would basically be those players who think they are skilled but aren’t doing the other important things to perform better, shouldn’t have the expectation that they can win. But winning isn’t everything, you can take your fun
Of course, its perfectly fine to want a solo-only league, just like its fine to want a wooden racquet tennis league. But its not fine to feel entitled to one, and be all complainy about losing in the regular league. I guess its about having the right attitude.
Ok, you are wrong you are ignoring one thing tennis is not a team based game. And allow me that make this analogy (which is disagree with since you are comparing a team based game with one that doesn’t involve any), if a tennis player has less chance to win using a wooden racket. Then how is a lone low MMR (!= skills ) , grouped with low MMR player, supposed to win against a team full of high MMR players?
As a solo q er, your performance has a 20% impact on the outcome, and the way to fix it is to have a MMR system like Dota or lol uses where 50 is match up against 50. The performance issue although valid nullify the whole purpose of rank,why?? Because most exclusive spvp players do not play rank so they can team with fends, etc. .. We play to see how much we have improved or how better we are compared to our friends. People shouldn’t have to resort to duo/ trio to have a fair chance of winning, that’s all I am saying.
My tennis example is fine. Whether its a team sport is irrelevant, because my point is, in a league where you’re “supposed” to play like X, if you choose to do Y instead, you can’t expect to have a “fair chance of winning”.
A= Show me where Anet said, only teams have to apply or better yet solo q aren’t welcome. And you are example isn’t fine, you are comparing two different thing, so how does can it hold? And better yet, Anet never said that rank is solely for teams.
You *have to accept that you’ve chosen to reduce your chances of winning, but choose to play anyways and take what enjoyment you can from merely participating.*
A = True and I do still that doesn’t mean I have to censure my opinion on the algorithm being used. This is the type of feedback Anet needs to better S3 algorithm.
This applies for many different X and Y:
Metal tennis racquet vs. wooden
Team vs solo
Voice comms vs typing
Meta builds vs weaker builds
Playing how its supposed to be played vs not.A = No its doesn’t because in a solo game like wooden vs tennis, you are solely responsible for the outcome. In team vs solo, you are not. An experience players with a wooden racket can still beat an average one with a tennis racket. Put the same players in a team, the experience in a team full of noobs(wooden racket) vs the average (in the team full of average); it won’t matter how good the experience tennis player is, the outcome of that game are set in stone since his contribution to win/loss is 20%.
Let me just touch on meta vs weaker builds, most serious pvp er that I know don’t use meta builds; that’s another hole in your argument; it’s true that a team with voice comp has a better chance at winning against one with no voice camp, given that the skills is the same around board. However, I d bet that a pro player match with 4 noob on Ts, has close to 25% chance of winning a game against a team of average player stack together with no voice communication. (Just my opinion)
Don’t you see that your complaint can have any of these things, and its impossible to have a competitive league that accommodates these complaints?
people shouldn’t have to resort to meta builds just to have a fair chance of winning
people shouldn’t have to resort to voice comms just to have a fair chance of winning
Etc etc.A= Never said any of the above and if you read both of my replies up there, you d see why. Meta builds do not improve your chance of winning in high elo if anything you ll get counter easily. I never said voice comp was the problem. The problem is that the ALGORITHM favor one side over the other, and a way to circumvent it is by using premade or duo. So, it’s becomes clear that the resurgence of teams in rank is due to the faulty Algorithm.
Currently the “optimal” way of playing the game is to queue with people you trust, using a powerful coordinated team build, and voice comms. Doing less reduces your chances of winning.
A= I agree but that doesn’t mean Anet should standardized this model for the remaining two seasons, as someone said earlier ( don’t know if it was true or not); Anet tweak the MM algorithm twice last season. So believing it or not, my complaining about resort to pre made to have an equal chance at winning actually helps the devs.
ANet has decided, due to the population, to lump everyone into the same league. So unfortunately, your chance of winning is influenced by these things.
I get that you want the system changed to protect solos from teams. Other people want to protect themselves from class stacking, or from voice comms, or from HOT classes. So who gets their wish?
*Maybe we should have matchmaking settings that allow you to control what matches you get (and increase your queue time)
- solo queue only
- no elite classes
- no voice comms
- no class stacking
- narrow mmr / pip rangeThen everyone is happy? Although queue times will make them unhappy, I suspect.*
A = I noticed you have said you but I have never complained about any of the above, I don’t want a solo queue only or etc… And what make you think that teams don’t encounter the same problem?? The fact is the ALGORITHM X group together against X works across board, though teaming can lessen the pernicious effects of the MM. So, you are either not getting the thrust of my argument or I might have poorly worded it. I am, in no way shape of form against pre made vs solo q er, what I have issue with is the algorithm. Hence, people shouldn’t have to rely to pre made to alleviate the pernicious effect of the MM, that’s Anet job.
But then we get to the problem, is it valid to have a competitive ladder where everyone is playing under different rules? If you reach Legendary whilst protecting yourself from all the people playing the game “properly”, do you really “deserve” it?
A = Now we are on the same wavelength, although I disagree with what you said and my 5 answers above should shed some light on it; but do you believe that the high MMR player who were packed together against low MMR players whilst protecting themselves for all the people playing the game ( thanks to Anet) deserve it?
(edited by Fivedawgs.4267)
I enjoyed watching that. Very useful information for players that actually want to get better.
edit: After reading some responses it seems like many people don’t. You people are doing yourself a disservice.
Because you can carry four other 4 with this meta? ?? Look last season, it was possible because each team had their share of bad; whereas this season low MMR players are grouped together and match against HIGH MMR players. I mean the outcome of that game is clear.
This was only the case maybe the first 3-5 days of this season.
High mmr-players advance and get into higher divisions while low mmr-players are stucked. There is a difference between having a high mmr and having a higher mmr than you and your teammates.If you still keep losing in low divisions it means that you and your team is even worse than another new or bad team and not that some poor low mmr people got rekt against evil high mmr players
Show me where I said :
-That I am losing games
- or called high MMR player evil? ?
I was explaining how the algorithm works. Just because I am no longer having those issue, winning or losing lopsided games, doesn’t mean the MMR algorithm is alright.
But tbh, warriors can’t really carry or carry as hard as revs/ reaper/ scrapper but Luke everything in life, they are some exceptions.
I don’t have an argument, I only posed a question, and stated a definition.
High performance, the way I’m using it, means doing what you need to do, to get results.
Your example is a faulty one. To highlight the difference between performance vs skill, here’s a better example.
Team A is full of all stars. 1v1 they are the best. They have the highest “skill”.
However,they don’t use voice comms, don’t practice team tactics, don’t coordinate their builds.Team B have “lesser skilled” players. However, they use voice comms, practice team tactics, coordinate their builds.
If Team B defeats Team A, then they are higher performing, despite being less “skilled”.
(If team A wins, they are higher performing AND more skilled. But suck at teamwork)Its impossible to base a competitive activity on skill, or teamwork. (Well, unless you have human judges like ice skating, I guess.) You can only have a competition based on performance. (Skill and teamwork helps, of course.)
If i wanted to make an argument, it would basically be those players who think they are skilled but aren’t doing the other important things to perform better, shouldn’t have the expectation that they can win. But winning isn’t everything, you can take your fun where you can find it.
Nice example indeed, but you are insinuating that rank is for team only; that’s where you are wrong. Solo q er should have a chance to compete ( I am not saying we don’t, but the odds are stacked against us).
Youre using the wrong meaning of “compete”. You’re using the meaning like, “our prices are competitive”, ie. Similar to your opposition.
That’s not the meaning when we’re talking about a competition, or a competitive game. That one is, “to be in opposition against others.” Ie. Opposite of cooperate.
Solo players have every opportunity to compete, as you said. But just because a tennis player is allowed to compete using a wooden racquet, doesn’t mean he should expect a fair chance at winning, and it certainly doesn’t mean the rules should be changed to accommodate him. (And the ITF is not obligated to make a grand slam circuit just for wooden racquet players.)
Of course, its perfectly fine to want a solo-only league, just like its fine to want a wooden racquet tennis league. But its not fine to feel entitled to one, and be all complainy about losing in the regular league. I guess its about having the right attitude.
Ok, you are wrong you are ignoring one thing tennis is not a team based game. And allow me that make this analogy (which is disagree with since you are comparing a team based game with one that doesn’t involve any), if a tennis player has less chance to win using a wooden racket. Then how is a lone low MMR (!= skills ) , grouped with low MMR player, supposed to win against a team full of high MMR players?
As a solo q er, your performance has a 20% impact on the outcome, and the way to fix it is to have a MMR system like Dota or lol uses where 50 is match up against 50. The performance issue although valid nullify the whole purpose of rank,why?? Because most exclusive spvp players do not play rank so they can team with fends, etc. .. We play to see how much we have improved or how better we are compared to our friends. People shouldn’t have to resort to duo/ trio to have a fair chance of winning, that’s all I am saying.
Lol at high performance, if I may OP what is performance to you?? It’s doesn’t take a brain to know that a team full of good player will have a better performance than one full of noobs. So, your argument is invalid, although it has a few good points.
I don’t have an argument, I only posed a question, and stated a definition.
High performance, the way I’m using it, means doing what you need to do, to get results.
Your example is a faulty one. To highlight the difference between performance vs skill, here’s a better example.
Team A is full of all stars. 1v1 they are the best. They have the highest “skill”.
However,they don’t use voice comms, don’t practice team tactics, don’t coordinate their builds.Team B have “lesser skilled” players. However, they use voice comms, practice team tactics, coordinate their builds.
If Team B defeats Team A, then they are higher performing, despite being less “skilled”.
(If team A wins, they are higher performing AND more skilled. But suck at teamwork)Its impossible to base a competitive activity on skill, or teamwork. (Well, unless you have human judges like ice skating, I guess.) You can only have a competition based on performance. (Skill and teamwork helps, of course.)
If i wanted to make an argument, it would basically be those players who think they are skilled but aren’t doing the other important things to perform better, shouldn’t have the expectation that they can win. But winning isn’t everything, you can take your fun where you can find it.
Nice example indeed, but you are insinuating that rank is for team only; that’s where you are wrong. Solo q er should have a chance to compete ( I am not saying we don’t, but the odds are stacked against us).
Nice example indeed.
I enjoyed watching that. Very useful information for players that actually want to get better.
edit: After reading some responses it seems like many people don’t. You people are doing yourself a disservice.
Because you can carry four other 4 with this meta? ?? Look last season, it was possible because each team had their share of bad; whereas this season low MMR players are grouped together and match against HIGH MMR players. I mean the outcome of that game is clear.
And also NEW account start with an average MMR, so someone who tried so hard to get to elegant last season MIGHT HAVE a LOWER MMR than a new player. Consequently, he will get matched with low MMR player while the new player has a better chance of having high MMR player on his side.
This stuff is self explanatory, all you have to do from here is connect the dots.
Out of curiosity and I know I may be breaching forum guildlines, can anyone name me a multiplayer game where tactics is a very small part of the game whereas individual skill and teamwork is paramount?
I’m not really sure what sort of distinction you’re trying to cut here, “tactics” are an integral part of teamwork, and most individual skill as well. Are you talking more twitch reflexes or something?
Well there is a distinction, you can have teams with good teamwork, good comms, individuals who have good twitch reflexes but use bad tactics and lose the game as a result.
I am not entirely sure if the above-mentioned scenario plays out in GW2 as I don’t play a lot of PVP but I am quite sure it happens in other multiplayer games.
Oh you mean play like Thelordseth portal ing home, hence losing his team the game?? But the same lordseth has been seen around twitch preaching the holy gospel of CARRYING. And tbh, idk if he supposed to CARRY his herd of sheeps home or to the next division.
Lol at high performance, if I may OP what is performance to you?? It’s doesn’t take a brain to know that a team full of good player will have a better performance than one full of noobs. So, your argument is invalid, although it has a few good points.
Still that doesn’t justify the necro buff, I can’t help it but wonder if leeto gf works at anet.
Yup. At least you were smart enough to know that they system favored you over other players. And btw if I were you I d keep my streak alive till 100 w.
Why not ?? All you have to do is look at the algorithm.
Oh thanks dude, I will try it.
Match making rating. .. in balanced games like lol Dota; it’s used to match teams against oponents so that each has a 50% chance of winning or losing. Anet, on the other hand, uses it to favor one team over the other. Consequently, matches up like these:
Average MMR of team 1 : 100 vs 900 Average MMR of team 2
Are possible. And also, high MMR players are group together so that the low MMR team get stomped 20 ft below.
DotE * .. sorry I am not familiar with our lingo…. impatiently waiting for your reply though.
Dude, are you trying to up the suicide rate in the US?? although I would like that system, but we need a better MMR system before this can be implemented.
/edit: actually I really dont give a kitten… Im not gonna reiterate the same statement I made hundreds of times just so you can still not get it. Believe what you like. And the sky is purple for some.
This…
Im just gonna leave it here…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0HCg63Dvyw
And he is same guy who cried about the mes nerf,just show you how fickle people are.
And about his tips,this video is the epitome of his stupidity; all it takes is for one teammate to portal home to screw the entire game.
I believe MOST PLAYERS are complaining about the MMR formula and everyone agrees that shopping for amber was bad; and Anet could have fixed it by putting matching restriction on tiers.
The fact is LAST SEASON MMR formula is a quadrillion time better than this ONE…. I believe that’s what antichecker was trying to convey.
d. I thought that matchmaking system is supposed to make matches between equally skilled opponents.
Those are words that ANET can’t grasp.
Implied in his statement; if you are not as skilled as the Lord’s ethnic or if you don’t play a meta class, you should stay out of rank.
Back to his post, what a load of crap. The MMR being biased is a FACT. So what are you agually trying to prove??
Day 9 = Saphire tier 4 , and 10 pip away from ruby. I noticed these waters are infested with bunker eles, so I moved from 3 2 necros to 3 2 ele. What a pain. Anywyas, planning to gain a tier tomorow.
BUILD: POWER WARRIIR … GS SW SHIELD
At least you got your point across and about the bugs, some of them might be hacks. Cause I remember not being able to focus/target a player last weak. And it happened a lot this week as well.
But yeah, I feel for you.
People would abuse the system by blocking all of the best players.
This doesn’t make any sense, who wouldn’t want a pro player on his camp?
You know at first I was for the bezerker stance, but as time goes by, the change really seems like a nerf to me. And all of your points are valid btw.
Last hope is that the reason we’ve not gotten anything is because they’re making big changes/ complete redesign which I would like to take time for it to be very good
I see someone is in it for the long haul. And how are you faring in league obindo?
Day 8= total kittening… power went out during a match and anet did a total 180 on my games. Deep into elo hell .. don’t know If I am ever going to get out of it. Needless to say, I am still Saphire T2 3 pip away from T3
And also isn’t regen a boon?? Careful a necro might take it away. Anyways, I am so he’ll bent on making my power warrior work, and thanks for the thorough explanation dude.
Ah so the tactic line is making a comeback. 6k at every stun break is a bit op, I can’t believe people still think we don’t have sustain. Warriors have sustain, our main problem are revs. Revs are and will alays be stronger than us. I’ll check if last stand and stamina will yield me the same cd on dogde as warhorn + stamina.
To play the devil advocate, I heard pre hot ele were jack of all trades, they could dps, heal, condi removal you name it.
Day 7: didn’t touch rank today because of my ping… 200+ and kept on spiking in the 700. So no progress today, but I spent most of my day wvw… ill try again tomorow.
So what exactly are you trying to prove with this one?? There is no way to tell someone MMR based on this form. The fact are average/ high skilled player with low MMR where paired with noob at the start of the season while others (with high MMR) where place together; and each group had to compete against one another. Of course a good player will always catch up. However, ANET favoring one side over the other was wrong.
So there us no basis to collect data, i.e. a noob with high MMR who got carried all the way to ruby; who is now having trouble reaching diamond or experiencing loss streak in ruby.
So what would be your interpretation of the data?? That this dude belong to RUBY??
You see where I am going?? There is no need to collect data because :
1- the independent and dependent variables are not the same for everyone.
2- ergo, we are dealing with the luck based system.
snip
Stop posting any time, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Last season was terrible, because the system was prioritizing MMR and not divisions/tiers which led to people being all over the place. Legendary div players facing ambers, decent players having a way harder time to climb, while bad players abused their way to the top. The current system needs a bit of time, but in a couple of weeks every division and tier should have it’s own “playerbase” so to speak. You’re not entitled to climb/get carried to division 6, you play on the level where you belong. Literally every MMR argument I’ve read so far is beyond flawed. A really obvious example I can give you is Leeto, he’s Diamond on a free to play account which by theory shouldn’t have over the top MMR. You increase your MMR by beating worse opponents, if you can’t beat bad players then don’t expect to get matched with good ones to carry you.
Just to clarify one thing, new player start with average MMR. A diamond struggling/ trying to get to legebdary last season, might as well have a lower MMR than an average player. Few are those with 60~70% MMR in rank; hence, it looks as if people who try to get to another division Legendary/ diamond/ ruby/ saphire, etc. . Are being punished for their losses.
Hope, it make sense.
I think he went after the argument, so did I. You said he couldn’t prove anything ( which was a very stromg argument, indeed) but his reply was a classic. I , in no way shape or form, was being disdainful; I apologize if I came across as rude.
Blood reckoning
Yup this… that heal is op with burst mastery, you can finish someone pretty fast with it… can also work well with necro given that you CI that’s 6 condi removed in a short span…. but it does have its pro and cons
MMR decay rate is hidden. We can extrapolate the decay rate from the number of people who have multiple account on different streaks.
So you basically admit you can’t prove it. In fact, if the MMR had been reset/decayed completely at the start of season 1… we’d have had the exact same manure storm that we’re having now. Heck, it’d be even more random than day 1 of season 2. Which it obviously wasn’t.
The snowball is real, there is nothing to discuss here.
Good thing we aren’t discussing the “snowball” in this thread then.
So everything I can’t prove is false, in fact I can’t prove you exist.
The theory of MMR snowball explains what we observe better than any alternative explanation. It consistent with everything, the long win/loss streaks, players constantly being matched against the same people, two accounts of the same player with drastically different streaks, masses of solo players leaving the season.Therefore your sophistry on I can’t prove the MMR decay is pointless.
you know what, keep telling yourself you earned that win streak, and everyone’s stuck because that’s where they belong. What you think is your problem, not mine, or a problem for the countless people stuck in the snowball hell.
This was thr last nail in the coffin. Maybe he was a bot after all, since we can’t prove he exist. Please bots!!! Stay away from the forums!!!!
Thanks
Yes, the MMR is account based, my point being you have a better chance at winning ( hence increasing your MMR) by using a GOD tier class, which you are unskilled at, then using another class (Not- GOD tier) which are very skilled at. So the argument that the new ladder segregate on skill alone becomes a bit shaky.
(edited by Fivedawgs.4267)
I wrote a big long beautiful description since I heard I was quoted from another thread here, but my phone kittened up so it’s gone. >:I
TDLR
I think matchmaking has done a good job seperatinge high tier players.There aren’t enough pop for divisions.
Placement matches should be a thing
The big issue is rewards, it’s why placement matches haven’t been done I assume.
Anet has tied super mega legendary to this system, which was unnecessary. I would’ve been fine with the icon and title. Exclusive rewards aren’t bad, but for a such a small portion of the pop without something comparable for your average player really sucks.I agree the mistake for Anet was to not have qualifiers. People fall into the average category for a number of reasons and not all of them are skill related. Time constraints of the player has as much an impact as skill on your rating. When Anet inflated the mmr of lower skilled and newer players and pooled them into the mean with experienced players they diluted the skill level in that pool. Add to that, Anet made that group face better players from a naturally developed skill pool, then this present environment could be the only outcome. This stopped being a true ladder match.
I agree and to add to that, the ladder, by all means, does not separate high skilled player from lower ones. Instead, it segregate based on MMR, Why? In addition to numerous people claiming that they had better result on their necro, which I am assuming they suck at, then their main, Not all high MMR players have higher skills even though most Do.
The way the system is setup, your MMR is affected by the class you use ( how OP it is), your skills, and are you duo ing or in a premade. Out of all those factors, your class has the greatest influence on your MMR. Ergo, a high skilled warrior players MIGHT ended having a low MMR than an average Rev or low skilled necro. And pictures have been posted on this subforum section alone.
(edited by Fivedawgs.4267)
Wow … now that’s a competitve game. I hope you didn’t lose a pip?? Jk cause I know you did. That’s the type of game that make you break your mouse or something.
Dude you no lifed to diamond. There’s barely enough ruby players on to que unless it’s prime time. You’re gonna have to wait for people to catch up.
No lifed? ? Dude, that’s uncalled for. The OP is obviously a high skilled player who is where he should be. OP, I hope it will get better for you by the end of this week.
Yup, the last one
Go on their website then create an account for free. Lol, what is it that you don’t get?? Gw2 core, pvp, and wvw is now f2p.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/play-for-free-today/
And there you go.
and they are paying more $$ for those accounts. anet wins.
Not if they use a none HOT build on both accounts and just play FTP on the other.
you still have to pay for account. accounts arent free.
Lol, have you heard of f2p accounts??? Lol inform yourself my friend
Lol, you are the most laid back warrior ever dude. Watching that gane made me laugh, at least you know what you can take.
Managed to salvage last night after I took a break. Hit a nice win streak and I am now in t5 ruby. Hoping to close out to diamond in the next few days.
Favorite match from last night.
1)Forest win- http://www.twitch.tv/interpretinterrupt/v/51760130Analysis:
I switched to marauder amulet and Hoelbrook runes. I found that my current ruby teammates were relying on me taking 1v1s vs scrappers and revs more often. So I had to water my damage in order to survive long enough in those fights. Not what I would like to do but I must adapt. Versus 2+ necro teams, I am just dropping shield mastery for dogged march. Unblockable marks makes it more of a liability than a help.
Unblockable mark?? You mean signet of might?
Day 6 = No progress, also tried to help my friend get out of MMR. So my mmr took a hit, so I’ll try my best to get out of t3 tomorow.
BUILD = POWER REVS … and necros are everywhere, necro here , necro there . Also I have won 35% or 40% of my games today.
Revs scrapper reaper are the carry classes. Well, as far as the state goes it depends on who you ask. But I’ll tell you this much though, the current MM algorithm being used is FAULTY.