Guild Wars 2

You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

As Revenant is not even close to Reaper.
You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backbreaker
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom
Basilisk Venom can be ranged, has 2 chances, once applied is instant, can be done from stealth and can be traited.
I demand a nerf of Basilisk Venom, or that every class get a stun as good as Jade Winds, regardless of the peculiarities of that class.
Why shouldn’t Elementalist get Jade Winds too?

Revenant can’t trait anything in Jade Wind.
Might can be traited is on any Shiro skill, so you actually lose might throughput if you waste 50 energy on JW.

Reaper has many cc, not only chill, but also fear (that can be traited to apply chill aswell).
It also risks way less while doing CttB, and doesn’t gain less imo.

Astralporing.1957:

skowcia.8257:

Revenant received mobility with Shiro, much better than any ele can even dream of.

…okay, that’s pretty much told me everything i needed to know about this thread.

Lol, I did miss that. Ok /thread

I’m pretty sure Roy said they already had a version with weaponswap and just wanted feedback to be sure.

skowcia.8257:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnet
Can be and will be trained for 20cd, unblockable 1200 range pull. Sword pull which has to be used in melee and can be blocked is insane? Then what are you going to say about magnet? Even more stuff to combo with.

>toolkit
>has 25s cooldown
>need to waste a trait to reach 20 cd

You already answered yourself.
20s cooldown with no traits on a similar skill is already pretty low.
You trade 5s for less range and blockable. It’s fair.
Also because it’s a weaponskill on a popular weapon. You’re not forced to equip a bad kit for that.

I don’t think that anyone in pvp can fall for this (attachment, and that’s actually while casting). It’s maybe the biggest skill effect in the game after Ele’s tornado.

CttB gives:

• stun (33% less but still decent)
• stability (1-5 stacks)
• 8s of chill
  * might on attack
  * life force on attack
  * chill explosion and spread on critical
  * damage over time
  * 10% less damage from chilled enemies
• if you miss you lose nothing except a cooldown, if JW misses you lose 50 energy
• Reaper has so much chill and cc that it would be harder to avoid it, even if it has more cd. JW is more risky
• If you don’t like JW you can equip Lich or another Elite. Revenant can’t change it.
• It’s a shout, so 1 condi removed with the rune if you want.

• 0 resistance lost, you can use any skill not on cd.

JW has 30% longer stun duration and 50% less cast time, but way less side effects and a 100% bigger telegraph that can be spotted from the moon.

Not saying it’s worse, but not even better.

because it’s slow and has a huge telegraph and energy cost. Nobody is going to fall for that.

With no cd you can basically do infinite block+immobilize or move a target wherever you want for a very long distance. It could be used to break the game.

Weaponswap doesn’t really matter, because it’s designed to also swap in weapons for different situations (like range or healing)
Also why do you need to use sword OH skills often? It’s bad for the dps.

If the cd is too high however, I’m sure you can tell them after the next beta.

Sagat.3285:

Kidel.2057:

And both thief and ranger are getting staff. There was no rule about not getting the same weapon.

Not guarantee for thief ele thought they were getting a sword at first and look WH now!! Tbh I’m leaning for rifle on thief so yeah this rule still stands for now.

Horn for ele was datamined weeks ago… and together with Thief’s staff lol (that actually has even more evidence then ele, with weaponlink and even the artwork for the specialization) and glint shield.
Also glint skill icons and shild tooltips were also datamined in the same update.

Sword for ele was never a thing. Skills were just placeholders with dagger tooltips, for whatever reason.

yeah, than what? IO+JW can only be done while already in combat, because you need around 70 energy, so people will easily expect this and dodge that HUGE telegraph. If you get hit by JW than you deserve to lose.

Also after using 70 energy the best you can do is swap Mallyx/Jalis and do some average dps.

And if you miss or get blocked you basically wasted 60-70 energy and your best legend for 10 seconds.

With stealth it would be much easier.

And both thief and ranger are getting staff. There was no rule about not getting the same weapon of another elite spec, but just about not getting an elite that focuses on a weapon that the class can already equip..

Gwalchgwn.1659:

I am agreeing with comparing JW with BV is ridiculous. But the complaints about BV needing a buff precedes JW reveal

Read the title of this thread and the first post again.
Sorry I couldn’t read your mind at your first comment, but it’s pretty late and 90% of the thiefs are basically saying “Revenant got a better BV, we want the same but with no activation time”.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

And if adding a boon removal is “nothing”, then isn’t that perfect? It’s not making BV overpowered but it is adding something to be worth slotting.

I wouldn’t mind it, but asking that because of JW is as ridiculous as Elementalists asking for weaponswap because Revenant got it.

People forget how Revenant works and how much it’s struggling to be decent.

swap Jalis to use the healing skill is already slow.
With ventari it would be swap ventari, summon the tablet, do the skill. Dead before completing it.
Plus ventari is basically useless if you’re not playing a healer build, since you waste all your time managing the tablet. Jalis at least has stability, a cc and the hammers (the elite is crap).

all this complains (there are currently 2 threads in the revenant section, 2 in the thief section, 1 in the necromancer section) for 1 boon removal? As I said: nothing. I’t like you are agreeing with me and you disagree with all the thiefs complaining here.
They’re asking for way more than that. Basically complaining that Jade Winds is a better BV.

then you’re basically saying nothing, just irrelevant criticism.
What are we supposed to discuss about? Anything I say is “oh but I didn’t say that”, “oh, just some people said that”, “any buff”

I asked: what kind of buff do you want? “any buff” is nothing.

JW is aoe and lasts 3s because
1) is used by a weak class with no customization
2) has no traits
3) has a huge slow telegraph
4) has no range
5) has a huge energy cost
6) only 1 hit, meaning that if you miss you’re screwed, can’t even tun away since your impossible odds will have no energy to be used.

Nothing of this can be applied to thief. Or you just want a copy of jade winds? Sure, from stealth, not OP at all.

I’ll ask again before you say something irrelevant for the third time: what kind of buff do you want? What kind of buff can be made that is not completely off the charts?

So what are you suggesting?
An instant, ranged 2s stun with 2 chances to be applied? From stealth? With venom traits?

Sure, a thief 100% stunning a player for 2 seconds. Basically you can only survive if you are a soldier warrior/guardian.

What then? Aoe?
Sure, ranged instant aoe stun. Not op at all.

JW is aoe and lasts 3s because
1) is used by a weak class with no customization
2) has no traits
3) has a huge slow telegraph
4) has no range
5) has a huge energy cost
6) only 1 hit, meaning that if you miss you’re screwed, can’t even tun away since your impossible odds will have no energy to be used.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Kidel.2057:

Nope, I know it currently doesn’t stack.
People want 2s of stun (so 2 non stacking hits with 2s of stun). I think it would be OP on a thief, with that peak damage and stealth.

BV is 1s stun because it basically cannot be avoided, and allows the thief to burst you.
JW is actually pretty easy to avoid and Revenant can’t burst because of its high energy cost (and Revenant does pretty low damage already).

You should read better. Only a handful people are suggesting a buff that makes BV stack or a longer stun duration. A lot of other people are just asking for a buff. Any buff.

Like? Aoe?
So instant, aoe, maybe ranged, and 2 hits? Sure, lol. Not OP at all.
How to stun an entire group: part 1.

And however people asked for a 2s stun (even in Thief forum)

Made the same suggestion in first post. Glad you read it.
Not talking about the bridge, of course.

BV is 1s stun because it basically cannot be avoided, and allows the thief to burst you.
JW is actually pretty easy to avoid and Revenant can’t burst because of its high energy cost (and Revenant does pretty low damage already).

Higher risk? Higher reward. Thief risks nothing. Apply venom, hide in stealth, bam. Even if 1 hit is blocked you get a second chance.

Nope, I know it currently doesn’t stack.
People want 2s of stun (so 2 non stacking hits with 2s of stun). I think it would be OP on a thief, with that peak damage and stealth.

BV is 1s stun because it basically cannot be avoided, and allows the thief to burst you.
JW is actually pretty easy to avoid and Revenant can’t burst because of its high energy cost (and Revenant does pretty low damage already).

Higher risk? Higher reward. Thief risks nothing. Apply venom, hide in stealth, bam. Even if 1 hit is blocked you get a second chance.

shouldn’t you ask this in the Mesmer section?

Guess what? If you don’t like BV you can use another elite (Dagger Storm is awesome).
If a Revenant doesn’t like JW but needs Impossible Odds, he cannot swap in another elite skill.
My current build on Revenant has Shiro+Jalis, and both have terrible elite skills. I can’t do anything about it. I need to equip Jalis for the healing skill and Shiro for Impossible Odds.
Revenant has many drawbacks. It needs better skills.
(however I personally don’t think that JW is better then BV, just different. BV has less duration but many advantages, like instant application on enemy, double chances, range and so on. Plus Thief has access to stealth and initiative, Revenant does not. Dude, JW telegraph is huge and it’s not instant).

Plus
Leeching Venoms — Gain might when activating a venom. Siphon life from your foe when triggering a venom. This can only occur once per strike.
Venomous Aura — When you use a venom skill, you apply the effects to all nearby allies as well. Venom recharges are reduced.

Guess what? If you don’t like CttB you can use Lich.
If a Revenant doesn’t like JW but needs Impossible Odds, he cannot swap in another elite skill.

My current build on Revenant has Shiro+Jalis, and both have terrible elite skills. I can’t do anything about it. I need to equip Jalis for the healing skill and Shiro for Impossible Odds.

Revenant has many drawbacks. It needs better skills.
(however I personally don’t think that JW is better then CttB, given the synergy that chill has with the Reaper trait line)

Guardian has weaponswap since the start and Engi never complained.
Are you saying that if Revenant had weaponswap from the start it would have been fine?
That’s what I think

Just adding that Legend swap is not a way to replace weapon swap, it’s a way to compensate the lack of customization on utility/healing/elite skills.

Not adding weaponswap from the beginning was a huge mistake.
I doubt Elementalists would have had any complaind if they added weaponswap to revenant from the start.

Plus a D/D ele can summon a bow to go ranged, and a Staff ele can conjure a hammer or a greatsword.
Ele has a lot of options. You may not like them, but here they are.

Revenants could equip 15 skills, and choose no utility skills, just presets.
Elementalist can equip 25 skills with no conjured weapons, 37 with conjured weapons.
Engineer already has 15 skills with no kits and 45 with kits.

I don’t see how can you compare Ele and Engi to Revenant.
Legend swap does NOT compensate for weaponswap.

It’s not just the numbeer of skills, but the number of cooldowns. You can start spamming skills with Elementalist and never stop.
Revenant has to stop a lot.

Also ele is the class with the highest dps and mobility, why do you complain?

First one I see with the same body piece I’m going to use.
The only piece in common however xD

Sagat.3285:

Just a though they could have a minor in corruption that consume 1 sec from conditions while under resistance 1 sec interval.

that would go against the class legend mechanic that benefits from having conditions.

the problem is that atm you can only couple mallyx with jalis, since you need his condi cleanse.

a possible solution would be to make the elite skill transfer 2s of conditions instead of copying 2s of them.
Edit: no, it’s OP. 10% in all stats + invulnerable to conditions…

skowcia.8257:

Kidel.2057:

DragoSilva, you’re clearly not suited for gamedesign and you don’t yet get Revenant at all. I’m happy you’re not in charge.

Said someone that thinks 40 energy regenerates in 3 seconds.. Ps. Diogo* …

4*
And that’s because I believed that upkeep was +10 in combat, which is actually not true, but that wasn’t even the point of the discussion. Don’t bring it up where is offtopic please. People may discover that you have something personal against me.

I don’t like sigil of Air in pve, maybe WvW. The 5s coldown (yeay, says 3s but it’s 5 atm) makes it inferior to Frailty and even Accuracy on zerker builds. Actually Air is maybe a 2% increased damage, while Frailty is a 4-5% increased damage (and it’s actually pretty useful on hammer/mace/staff with Devastation line because you also get 7% damage boost from trait) and Accuracy is basically 10-15% average if you have a lot of ferocity.
I’m going Force+Accuracy on swords and Force+Frailty on anything else.

Main reason why I don’t think it’s going to work like that.
Also if you have 2 set of weapons and you swap legend, wich sigils are going to be triggered? The ones from the currently equipped weapon, or the ones from the swappable weapon?

Imo only weaponswap will trigger.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Also, as for DPS, every Revenant weapon got buffs since the test weekend. Heck, Hammer 3 got a whopping 75% damage buff. Their DPS with just weapon skills may not be that bad.

Because Hammer’s ground targeted skills are slow and easy to avoid.

T raw.4658:

Who in their right mind honestly thinks Basilisk Venom is OP?

I don’t think it’s OP. I think it would be OP with double stun.

Meh, to me the only problem is that pain absorbtion gets condition and gives resistance based on the number, not the duration. You can get 2 seconds of resistance from a 2 hour cripple.

DragoSilva, you’re clearly not suited for gamedesign and you don’t yet get Revenant at all. I’m happy you’re not in charge.

I think Lich form is better tbh, even then JW.

CttB is already good, and Thiefs should not have anything better then BV.
The best you can get is a nerf of JW, lol. Thanks.

CttB is better than JW. More effects and no energy cost. You can argue that JW can be spammed, but then you can’t do anything else. 1 skill at best.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Jade-Wind/page/2#post5301516

Also people forgot that Revenant used to suck before Friday, and probably still does.
They’re not going to buff CttB, they’re going to nerf JW. Happy?

You’re also forgetting then even if the 2 skills are similar, Necros have many elite skills to choose from, while Revenant only has basically 2 decent ones, end if a Revenant needs a different utility, then has to give up a good elite.

CttB is actually better then JW https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Jade-Wind/page/2#post5301516

However BV can be also used while moving, unlike JW. Those are 2 completely different skills.

Muchacho.2390:

Kidel.2057:

I’d say JW is almost twice the size, can-be-seen-from-the-mists. Sure, CttB has a better looking animation.

The size doesnt really matter, considering the fact that the animation of CttB is big enough and due the white black contrast rather visible in any environment.

Honestly both skills are visible enough to notice them but for CttB you have double the time to dodge/interrupt/block etc. then jade wind.

A Revenant has no surprise effect. you can tell by a mile away if it has Shiro, and Shiro means it has Jade Wind. Reaper, on the other hand, can have any elite skill, even a racial one (lol) or the good old Lich.

About the telegraph, JW’s is actually pretty clear, except for the last part, that on the other hand is huge, like 6 times CttB’s corresponding one.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

1) Yeah, sorry then, 1 weaponskill. I didn’t mean skill types, but the number of skills you can use bofore needing to swap to a weaker legend. Not even counting Impossible Odds.
2) How? The telegraph is huge. See attachament, I’ve fixed the proportions.

3) Did another one with 3 keyframes, exluding intermediate frames in between. The difference is obvious. JW telegraph is 3 times bigger, if not more. I didn’t compare the actual explosions, since those are both huge.
4) Regardless of prior application you get might and life force when you hit a chilled enemy, chill explosion when you critically hit a chilled enemy, damage over time and 10% damage reduction from a chilled enemy. Chill stacks in duration, so if enemy had chill before or not it doesn’t matter, you still get A LOT of benefits. That’s better then 1 extra second of stun, and I’m not even counting stability. Come on.
6) see 5
7) I’m pretty sure that you’ve heard how much Revenant’s dps sucks with no Shiro. Using Jade winds prevents you from using impossible odds and if you miss you’re basically screwed. On the other hand if Reaper misses CttB it’s not a big deal.

Come on. The difference is obvious

Gwalchgwn.1659:

I feel like most people here mistunderstand something. No thief is asking to get a copy of jadewind. They are asking for a slightly reworked one (not just stun duration is a viable option, there are tons of others). Thief’s B venom used to be a very good elite skill but got nerfed only 1 patch after the release of GW2. Right now it’s not worth being called an elite skill. You can put it amongst the utilities and no one would think twice about it being in a wrong place.

they are asking for a change in BV because JW is “better”. Not only it’s not better (we can agree it’s more high risk, high reward, but not better), but a 2s BV would be completely overpowered on thief.

Muchacho.2390:

Kidel.2057:

6) AHAHAHAH Drop the hammer. Seriously? You’re comparing Necro’s instant CCs with Drop the Hammer?

Necros have only 1 instant CC and that is doom but guess what that is only for base necro not reaper…

And please dont count the instant fears from traits like reapers protection and fear of death since they mainly depend on the opponent CCing or downing you.

Better then nothing

Muchacho.2390:

Kidel.2057:

Muchacho.2390:

Kidel.2057:

3) Has a less visible telegraph (not a giant green tornado on the head)

What? Do you even know the animation of CttB?

Yes. And actually CttB telegraph animation is shorter then the actual cast time, while JW lasts for the whole time.

Lol those pictures hardly do the windups any justice. If you truely want to be fair you should show the whole animation, but i guess then you would clearly see that CttB is as visible as jade wind (if not more).

Here another couple of keyframes from both. You can actually see the timeline as the castbar.

I’d say JW is almost twice the size, can-be-seen-from-the-mists. Sure, CttB has a better looking animation.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

cut

1) All? Let’s say 3 weaponskills at best. And you need to be in combat already and wothout basically using any skill before. I don’t see that happen very easily, and if you let a Revenant build so much energy then you probably deserve to die.
2) That’s a lot. How can you say JW is better? That alone is huge.
3) Sure, did you miss Roy saying the same about JW, that is actually bigger? Posted a screen earlier.
4) We’ll see. Even if damage is the same, Reaper gets extra damage from chill. Plus more effects (like less damage received and so on)
5) Stacks in duration, it’s always useful. You get more damage and more effects (as the 10% damage reduction I mentioned). I’d trade 1 extra second of stun for all that stuff and chill.
6) AHAHAHAH Drop the hammer. Seriously? You’re comparing Necro’s instant CCs with Drop the Hammer? That has 15 energy cost and a longer cast time then Jade Winds, and even a bigger telegraph. DtH is a useless waste of energy. Revenant has basically no CC except jade winds.
7ish) Again, 3 JW means you don’t do anything else. 1 CttB gives you freedom to attack.

And are we seriously comparing Necro to Revenant? I know that Necro is not the brightest class atm, but it’s still better then Revenant and even has more survivability.

Muchacho.2390:

Kidel.2057:

3) Has a less visible telegraph (not a giant green tornado on the head)

What? Do you even know the animation of CttB?

Yes. And actually CttB telegraph animation is shorter then the actual cast time, while JW lasts for the whole time.

As I already said
1) Has no energy cost, even with a long cd you have all your skills to spam
2) Has stability / resistance (not sure which one)
3) Has a less visible telegraph (not a giant green tornado on the head)
4) Has higher base damage
5) Has a lot of chill, meaning (with traits) more damage (over time?), more cc, and exploding spreading chill. Basically the skill has sinergy with the Reaper, unlike Jade Winds.
6) can be combined with more cc utility skills (like fear), while revenant can’t pick the other skills

if you want 2s basilisk venom then give up to some damage, because thief + 2-3s stun + stealth + initiative burst would be insane in pvp.
Anything but bunkers would die in 2s, and even bunkers would have problems.

Don’t destroy pvp please.

What makes me laugh is that Guardian and Warriors used to be the best classes in the old keyfarming (whan you had access to all story quests since lv1) because of heavy armor and good mobility with base skills.
Hearing that for some people Guardian lacks mobility and doesn’t have 100% swiftness uptime makes me wonder if we are playing the same game at all.