Guild Wars 2

Sunflowers.1729:

MailMail.6534:

Necrotize.2974:

Power mesmers running PU are a completely different beast. They also give up quite a bit to get that stealth. Dueling obviously can’t be dropped. Illusions is also fairly mandatory as it reduces clone/phantasm cds AND shatter cds as well as providing some might. That leaves usually Domination, which can provide an insane amount of vulnerability to a proper burst. So giving up anyone of those lines for stealth isn’t exactly an easy choice.

They do not give up quite a bit to get stealth… Power shatter is highly effective no matter what 2 trees you go into in addition to Dueling. Illusions is not the least bit mandatory imo. Yes, most power shatter builds will benefit from the line, but you give up that extra power & clone management in exchange for either survivability or control. The latter is what is causing issues.

Duel/Chaos/Dom = the ability to quickly lock enemies down via CS and MoD. This is the biggest issue people are seeing. You don’t need the Shatter CDs in Illusions when it only takes 1 shatter out of stealth to down an enemy. Dwayna forbid the Mesmer is running Mental Anguish when he shatters you…

All this is to really say damage across all professions is just high right now. We’ll have to wait a while to see how things shake out and see if people are able to adjust. Maybe we’ll see tanker amulets used in response or more supportive builds being run…

Going Duel/Chaos/Dom with Mantra of Distraction (and assuming both Blink and Decoy are taken) means you have zero condition removal. I’d say that’s a pretty big weakness.

I guess you haven’t faced any Signet Power Shatters then with Mental Anguish… quite nasty! In this day and age, that’s a kittenumption. I rarely use Decoy unless I’m going into Illusions which gives me room for a condi clear. One stunbreak tends to be enough for me personally. Blink out performs Decoy every time. I think most Mesmers have room for a condi clear at this point… especially if they’re using PU which gives you ample time for MoR/MoD recharges.

This profession is ruining the game.

Necrotize.2974:

Power mesmers running PU are a completely different beast. They also give up quite a bit to get that stealth. Dueling obviously can’t be dropped. Illusions is also fairly mandatory as it reduces clone/phantasm cds AND shatter cds as well as providing some might. That leaves usually Domination, which can provide an insane amount of vulnerability to a proper burst. So giving up anyone of those lines for stealth isn’t exactly an easy choice.

They do not give up quite a bit to get stealth… Power shatter is highly effective no matter what 2 trees you go into in addition to Dueling. Illusions is not the least bit mandatory imo. Yes, most power shatter builds will benefit from the line, but you give up that extra power & clone management in exchange for either survivability or control. The latter is what is causing issues.

Duel/Chaos/Dom = the ability to quickly lock enemies down via CS and MoD. This is the biggest issue people are seeing. You don’t need the Shatter CDs in Illusions when it only takes 1 shatter out of stealth to down an enemy. Dwayna forbid the Mesmer is running Mental Anguish when he shatters you…

All this is to really say damage across all professions is just high right now. We’ll have to wait a while to see how things shake out and see if people are able to adjust. Maybe we’ll see tanker amulets used in response or more supportive builds being run…

Zenith.7301:

MailMail.6534:

I didn’t say it didn’t help. I said giving the mantra a greater recast timer IS gutting the skill. In PvE the sword offhand #4 is an interrupt on a 10 sec cd— if the mantra, which needs to be channeled after 3 uses, does no damage on its own, carries a longer cooldown, I have virtually no incentive to use it ever on PvE.

ooops. We’re talking about different things now. Confusion too stronk. Sorry! I don’t use MoD in my Signet build. I use CS, which is what I was referring to. Just to clarify, no one is suggesting a change to MoD or increasing its CD or anything. The focus is on CS and its ICD.

The use of MoD in PvE is quick stripping of defiance or reliable and frequent interrupts.

You must excuse my obvious ignorance as I do not PvE. I assume you dislike the proposed change to CS having a multi target 10s icd, because for bosses, stuns chip defiance more than daze?

With the new system it will be on a stronger tier, yes. And the fact is outside spvp most mesmers won’t be tab targeting mobs to stun with CS.

Literally, the only skill that requires you to target multiple enemies for daze/stun is Diversion (if not traited). Chaos Storm is Aoe. Magic Bullet is a bounce. Sword 4 dazes in a line. MoD is Aoe.

I say this to say, is adding 5 seconds to the CD of CS and making it based on individual targets gamebreaking in terms of this Defiance mechanic in PvE? My guts says no, but since you have more experience in that game format, I’m interested in your opinion.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

singinggecko.5736:

The only people who say ranger is op are the ones complaining about rapid fire :p… but seriously in almost every case (I’m not sure why I even read them anymore but I still do) it’s usually rapid fire and nothing else. The only other op ability thread I’ve seen was our underwater 3 heal lol.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Taunt-doesn-t-let-you-target/first

WHAT THE KITTEN?! I’m now questioning everything Brandon has told us in reference to Ranger Lore. He conveniently left out the part where pets are VORACIOUSLY taunting everyone and ruining of the game!!

How much of these rumours are true is unknown, but a there is a prophecy amongst humans, called the “Circle of Viability”. The prophecy describes the end of one adventurers profession within the circle, only to switch out with another from outside. Some people claim that we have not seen the end of days for the Rangers, and that the prophecy will once more come to them, while others remain sceptical and say that their time has come to an end.

wide-eyed

trooper.2650:

MailMail.6534:

That being said, have you checked out the new guild halls? There will definitely be a wide amount of variability to how unconventional pvp is played. Very open ended it seems. Gotta buy HoT though!

Care to explain? Apparently I have missed that one. I have not been in the guild halls yet :|

WoodenPotatoes, as always, does an excellent job at giving us the rundown on the newest events in guild wars 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut3iM7qlCtM

It’s pretty long, but basically, guild halls will enable you to invite players similar to having a pvp arena. You can skirmish in a TDM style of fighting with up to 6 teams or every man for themselves. You have the ability to micro manage the arena in various ways by adding turrets with varying functions.

Check the vid out.

Ath.2531:

I did not stun break because i was simply not stunned. I was just 1 shotted from stealth. That same mesmer was fighting 3-4 people at once and consistently stealthed away when he was in trouble, so yes it is quite possible he used torch.

I was playing a Valor/Virtues/Zeal guardian with GS/Hammer or staff. Again, my point isnt that i couldnt beat him. Its that i was killed instantly without being able to react. At one point i saw him and tried to run but he repeated the same process, probably also blinked to reach me and 1 shotted me again.

No offense, but guardian is the biggest counter to Mesmer post-revamp from my vantage point and experience. I don’t know what exactly you’re doing wrong here besides picking the most in-opportune moments to engage or disengage. Even on a bunkerish build, you should be able to destroy clones pretty easily with one whirl of your GS. And Balthazaar forbid you actually use burns…

Quadox.7834:

MailMail.6534:

Quadox.7834:

MailMail.6534:

Quadox.7834:

Mesmer is a bit on the strong side as you all know. Without nerfing the trait in a major way, i suggest the random condition is removed or changed. The 33% chance to get blinded isn’t very skillful, and besides, even without cripple/chill/blind the trait is still amazingly strong!

What?! LOL

This is a ridiculous nerf. Sorry. And besides, if you want to nerf anything on Mesmer, this is the wrong trait to focus on darling.

CI is perfect as is and works perfectly with the theme of Chaos.

It doesn’t even have to be a nerf. I said it could be changed. This means for example making it 100% chance to blind- no cripple or chill. In no means is this a “rediculous nerf”. P.S. don’t use words such as " darling" to try and belittle someones opinion, please. ^^

What does “without nerfing the trait in a major way” mean? Just a slight nerf?

What is the justification for balancing CI? I don’t see where you’ve spelled out why other than implying that the 33% chance at one of the conditions is “skill-less”.

I gave my opinion that is should be either nerfed or changed, reason being that i am all for traits with predictable counterplay- you know what happens If you get interrupted by a ci mesmer. Suddenly the victim can use a blind immune skill like utility goggles, for example. He knows he is going to get blinded on the interrupt. It can really turn a fight around with a 33% chance otherwise, which is something that i am against. It also helps bring the action away from the condition bar UI, like ANet wants. This is what i mean

Hmmm, well I think we have a fundamental disagreement with how the theme of Chaos works within Mesmer. Staff is the quintessential chaos weapon. Should Staff 1, 4 and 5 just offer one type of condition when procced? A lot of people would agree with your overall sentiments though with being anti-RNG, but I think that’s the inherent value of the chaos line and Mesmer in general. Lyssa, the goddess of chaos and… luck aka RNG.

And besides, interrupts in and of themselves already have counter play. Blinds, Aegis and Stability. Also, every enemy already knows what’s going to happen when you get interrupted by a CI Mesmer: you’re going to incur some soft CC each with its own specific limitations. If it’s cripple, then you have nothing to even worry about since you’re already immob anyway. lol That’s always been kind of useless imo.

denis.9487:

If pvp had more than stand in a circle to win. I might agree but I enjoy wvw for the open fighting style. Wish gw2 had more pvp modes.

I dislike wvw exactly for that lack of controlled environment. It just seems highly chaotic. No fight is ever “fair” based on the hundreds of variables at play.

That being said, have you checked out the new guild halls? There will definitely be a wide amount of variability to how unconventional pvp is played. Very open ended it seems. Gotta buy HoT though!

Quadox.7834:

MailMail.6534:

Quadox.7834:

Mesmer is a bit on the strong side as you all know. Without nerfing the trait in a major way, i suggest the random condition is removed or changed. The 33% chance to get blinded isn’t very skillful, and besides, even without cripple/chill/blind the trait is still amazingly strong!

What?! LOL

This is a ridiculous nerf. Sorry. And besides, if you want to nerf anything on Mesmer, this is the wrong trait to focus on darling.

CI is perfect as is and works perfectly with the theme of Chaos.

It doesn’t even have to be a nerf. I said it could be changed. This means for example making it 100% chance to blind- no cripple or chill. In no means is this a “rediculous nerf”. P.S. don’t use words such as " darling" to try and belittle someones opinion, please. ^^

What does “without nerfing the trait in a major way” mean? Just a slight nerf?

What is the justification for balancing CI? I don’t see where you’ve spelled out why other than implying that the 33% chance at one of the conditions is “skill-less”.

Photoloss.4817:

From a PvE perspective it’s “nice to have” since you can do quite a few skips without a Thief, but quite honestly I would like to turn back the clock to before this trait ever existed.
Not because it’s bad, useless or OP, but because the PU-specific balance whine always seems to get everything but PU nerfed instead.

lol +1 this

First off, I must say that I haven’t played with the current version of PU. I also don’t WvW or PvE, so take into consideration that my opinion is based purely from a PvP perspective.

Based on conversations with others, I can see why people would really dislike PU. I thought it was very strong before the buff and didn’t see a need for it to be buffed. I’ve also seen it in action myself. It’s extremely powerful. I think Anet would do better at balancing Mesmer skills/utilities if they did something similar to Master of Fragmentation where they make individual changes to each separate skill. I see where they intended for it to be useful: PvE and WvW for the group Veil and Mass Invisibility.

What they got instead is Mesmer 1-2 shot-ing people out of stealth in PvP.

Right now though, it seems like they’re pushing for more revealed traits/skills, which would add more counterplay for stealthed enemies theoretically making engineers, dragonhunters and rangers more valuable in a party.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

MailMail.6534:

What’s this Ranger you speak of?

According to old lore, the Rangers were attuned to nature, friends with fell beasts and communers of the spirits of nature. They were masters of survival, capable of swift combat, alongside their favoured animal companion.

Some Rangers found joy in using nature to make traps for survival, while others meditated to the spirits of Nature.
Sadly, a the Rangers that were now masters of creating traps were quickly overwhelmed by adventurers who discovered means to avoid these traps, or curing themselves from whatever ill the traps did.
The Ranger brethern, now masters of the spirits of Nature heard of the loss, and found themselves to fortify their defenses. However, the spirits grew restless, for it seemed that a greater entity robbed them of their potency. Now, these Rangers are no longer as strong as a community as they were before. While both talents were practiced, neither of the two were strong enough to hold their own.

A newfound power within their Longbow gave the Rangers some hope. Chased by an angry mob, they learned to use their survivalist skills to survive a number of ordeals. But it seemed, that even with this new strength and defense, the Rangers quickly fell into obscurity, only rumoured within passing stories of fell hunters mercilessly hunting their oppressors down when given the chance. Whether these stories are true remains to be seen, and the Rangers themselves have become nothing more than an urban legend.

Wow! What a profound fairytale. And what ever happened to these mystical beings you call Rangers in current Tyrian day?!

WvW is less fun than even PvE.

But back on topic…

I didn’t say it didn’t help. I said giving the mantra a greater recast timer IS gutting the skill. In PvE the sword offhand #4 is an interrupt on a 10 sec cd— if the mantra, which needs to be channeled after 3 uses, does no damage on its own, carries a longer cooldown, I have virtually no incentive to use it ever on PvE.

ooops. We’re talking about different things now. Confusion too stronk. Sorry! I don’t use MoD in my Signet build. I use CS, which is what I was referring to. Just to clarify, no one is suggesting a change to MoD or increasing its CD or anything. The focus is on CS and its ICD.

The use of MoD in PvE is quick stripping of defiance or reliable and frequent interrupts.

You must excuse my obvious ignorance as I do not PvE. I assume you dislike the proposed change to CS having a multi target 10s icd, because for bosses, stuns chip defiance more than daze?

Windwalker.7421:

It’s just really hard to justify playing anything but a power shatter at the moment. I never thought it possible, but it seems even more true than before the patch, and certainly after the gutting of MtD.

I have had fantastic results winning 80%+ of my matches with Condi Shatter, Signet Power Shatter and Support Signets. There’s so much build diversity for Mesmers right now. I’m sorry you feel this way. Even with shatter, there’s several ways to make it effective. The only tree that is necessary is Dueling. Illusions isn’t even completely necessary.

I have to figure out a way to record without it making me lag in games like last night. Instead of me just saying how effective MtD is in team play (specifically the AOE and single-target confusion application), I think I need hard evidence to prove it to you guys!! ahahha

Oh sorry I didn’t mean to exclude the all powerful Warrior class.

What’s this Ranger you speak of?

Zenith.7301:

The CC is virtually of no issue in any other build that isn’t berserker.

The damage berserker stats are putting out while being coupled with CC is the problem, not the CC itself.

Why do you want to gut the skills when the obvious problem is that players can achieve inordinate amounts of crit damage bonus and crit chance plus % damage modifiers in a PvP setting where vitality and toughness values don’t enjoy the same multipliers/scaling.

This is factually wrong. I speak from experience when I say the CC from CS helps my support signet build a lot. In the way of conquest, hard CC is valuable in any build if you’re able to realistically take it. btw, I use Cleric’s Amulet.

No one is advocating that the skill be gutted. Can you please give a quote suggesting such? Otherwise, those claims appear to be hyperbole and conjecture. Hmm those are two nouns I’ve had to use a lot the last two days on the forums.

You do bring up a great point. Players are doing a lot of insane damage. This is a fundamental issue that needs to be looked at with a critical eye. Outside of bugs, this should be anet’s priority #1. It still doesn’t address the issue of CS combined with MoD having a short CD that prevents counterplay. Until perma dodge/aegis/stability becomes a thing, 5 seconds is just too short.

SlimChance.6593:

Yes it was nice that Power Block now adds weakness, but it is still on “interrupt”. How often do you really “interrupt” a thief? And is weakness really GM worthy when you do? They just Consume Plasma twice and be right as rain.

I interrupt thieves nearly 90% of the times I use an interrupt. They spam attacks so regularly that you can even “accidentally” interrupt them.

Right now, if your going to duel a thief, would you pick “Power Block” as your GM?

If I’m going to duel a thief, I’m going to choose Blinding Dissipation and profit. That evens the playing field entirely, making their chances of beating you 60% instead of 90%. And most thieves aren’t as skilled as Mesmers, so that right there evens the playing field even more.

Shouldn’t a GM be just as powerful and build defining no matter the enemy?

No. Some gms directly counter certain builds. That’s why we have many to choose from. See Diamond Skin and how it counters every condi build using a Rabid or Settler’s Amulet. I get the frustration about Power Block in reference to thieves, but it now does decently well against thieves due to weakness and dmg.

@MailMail Your right, that is the issue. I’m afraid that CS being an “Adept” level trait is TOO powerful even with a 10 second ICD. And if CS stays at adept level, it will be adjust accordingly. By making CS a GM, it’s power is “justified” and has a greater chance of staying as is.

There’s no justifying a 5 second hard CC with no counterplay. There’s a sensible way to balance it. It’s a matter of if Anet will listen or not. I think it’d be better to rally around the ideas suggested, because you know Anet is going to nerf it eventually.

Seyiwaji.4082:

no thanks -1, i don’t want a longer cooldown.

Of course you don’t. You’re not interested in a balanced game. At least you’re upfront about it though.

See the following threads for proof:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Revenant-too-strong

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Elementalist-is-very-OP-1/first#post5231419

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Mesmers-out-of-control/page/3#post5230715

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Necros-have-made-PvP-un-fun/page/3#post5229406

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Grenade-Barrage-Bug/page/3#post5229374

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Maybe-Backstab-should-have-a-cool-down

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/The-burningreport

EDITED TO ADD MORE PROFESSIONS THAT ARE RUINING THE GAME:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Rampage-Lich

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Taunt-doesn-t-let-you-target/first

Quadox.7834:

Mesmer is a bit on the strong side as you all know. Without nerfing the trait in a major way, i suggest the random condition is removed or changed. The 33% chance to get blinded isn’t very skillful, and besides, even without cripple/chill/blind the trait is still amazingly strong!

What?! LOL

This is a ridiculous nerf. Sorry. And besides, if you want to nerf anything on Mesmer, this is the wrong trait to focus on darling.

CI is perfect as is and works perfectly with the theme of Chaos.

I will have to disagree with you here. The problem isn’t Power Block combined with CS. The problem isn’t even that you get a hard CC every 5s. The problem is that the aforementioned hard CC has 0 counter play when used with MoD. Do you nerf MoD? Of course not. You rebalance CS. The ideas given here would be a fantastic fix to a slightly overpowered trait: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Confounding-Suggestions-Suggestion/first#post5204814

10s icd (I would even be ok with 15) based on individual targets would nerf the single-target lockdown capabilities while buffing our ability to lockdown multiple targets at the same time. This is what CS should be.

Laraley.7695:

MailMail.6534:

Laraley.7695:

SPESHAL.9106:

Good report.

The problem is that Diamond Skin is way over-budget for even a Grandmaster.

There are some grandmasters that can give you the feeling of “god mode” maybe 1-3 times a match (like unholy martyr for Necros). However, they are worthless most of the time.

With Diamond Skin, it’s way too effective in almost every battle. Some grandmasters don’t even proc at all in fights and even when they do, they don’t give you the bang for the buck that diamond skin does. Thus, you could either buff all the other grandmasters or nerf diamond skin.

I don’t think it is, I just think the trait is badly designed. You either are unkillable versus condition specs in a 1v1 scenario or you don’t benefit from it at all in a teamfight since there’s always enough direct damage. I definitely think it should be reworked.

So basically, you’re saying Eles using Diamond Skin would make for a great home-point defender? I don’t see where that warrants a re-work. Some skills/traits work better in small scale, large scale and 1v1s. That’s why there are certain roles in pvp for builds to take.

No, I’m saying one trait counters a whole variety of builds and that’s not right.

It counters Rabid and Settler’s Amulet.

yhvh.8703:

Yeah, something to survive well against the hard-hitting Mordrem in SW. I know the main trick is to avoid being hit with all the defensive tools, but sometimes there are too many Mordrem, especially the Teragriffs.

With that old Clone Factory build, I just kept spamming clones and the aggro was everywhere, so most of the time I had nothing on me.

Well unfortunately, I don’t really have a condition build for you, but I do just fine on the rare chance that I’m in the Silverwastes with this phantasm build:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k2l61S7cVV71;9;4SVW;0146236046;9;1ZIDtZIDt;0FW0-gY10;1EbE6FbF6GbG6L

You get a lot of sustain and protection from both the Signets and the Inspiration line. Your phantasms actually live for a long time and do great damage. Usually, keeping your distance and spamming GS is the way to go. If you get pushed into melee battle, obviously Sword/Focus will offer you a lot of dmg mitigation.

Laraley.7695:

SPESHAL.9106:

Good report.

The problem is that Diamond Skin is way over-budget for even a Grandmaster.

There are some grandmasters that can give you the feeling of “god mode” maybe 1-3 times a match (like unholy martyr for Necros). However, they are worthless most of the time.

With Diamond Skin, it’s way too effective in almost every battle. Some grandmasters don’t even proc at all in fights and even when they do, they don’t give you the bang for the buck that diamond skin does. Thus, you could either buff all the other grandmasters or nerf diamond skin.

I don’t think it is, I just think the trait is badly designed. You either are unkillable versus condition specs in a 1v1 scenario or you don’t benefit from it at all in a teamfight since there’s always enough direct damage. I definitely think it should be reworked.

So basically, you’re saying Eles using Diamond Skin would make for a great home-point defender? I don’t see where that warrants a re-work. Some skills/traits work better in small scale, large scale and 1v1s. That’s why there are certain roles in pvp for builds to take.

Speaking from Mesmer pov, we typically go Rabid instead of Carrion, so it’s extremely hard to get you below that threshold by ourselves.

That being said, I don’t think Diamond Skin is OP. Yes, it’s very frustrating for me to have to literally leave a point in order to wait for backup before engaging, but that’s called counter play, and it’s something you should think of when you see an ele on the enemy team. It promotes having balanced teams and working together.

It surely hasn’t stopped me from winning most of my ranked games this far.

Korusef.3714:

@MailMail:
The questions are:
How effective is this build if you pick one of the other traits than MtD?
How effective is it when compared to other condition builds out there? (Namely burning right now.)

1. Not very effective, because you’re not dishing out enough condition damage with confusion alone, though it’s still a lot. The might stacks would boost your other condi dmg, but wouldn’t make up for the loss of torment. No torment also means it’s easier to clear the confusion. Phantasmal haste would only benefit pDuelist which would net you more bleeds more often.

2. Not very effective. Burning is insanely strong. The strongest condi above confusion. However, I think that’s more of a reflection on burn [and the need for it to be nerfed] than it is on Maim. Necro condi builds are supposed to be the best condi builds in the game. Engineer has a higher condi burst than we do. That’s always been weird to me. That being said, there are still 2 unique things that our condi build can potentially offer that others can’t:

• Boon removal & Disruption (Domination)
• On-demand stability for stomps (Chaos)

Leodon.1564:

MailMail.6534:

In terms of our relation to other professions:

• Guard: Our biggest counter. Whether I’m on my tank, shatter or condi, guard is always the class I’m worried most about. Their burns are insane. Their dmg is buffed, so they eat through our clones more so than they did more.

Do you use Inspiration in any of your builds? Inspiration counters their burns quite nicely.

In my tanky support signet build, I do. Guardian still kills my clones which cuts down on my boons and aoe healing. It’s not fair! #CryOfFrustration In that build specifically, I can actually down a guardian if I get the reflect off of his whirling blades, but that’s hard to do in the thick of battle when I’m trying to support my team and get interrupts for the boons.

Honestly, it’s just going to be a weird transition not having to worry about thieves but instead worrying a lot about guardians.

Windwalker.7421:

Very good video. I have to admit that both these guys sound sensible, and so does MailMail and many others here.

I agree with you in principle, I want a balanced game too and I don’t want to play an OPd FoTM Mesmer, however I want to stay on the side of caution and avoid giving into “knee jerk” emotional balancing, and give it a few more days for players to adjust builds and more clearly see where the main issues are.

I think Pyro’s suggestion for CS sounds pretty reasonable. However, before we touch on too many traits, ANet needs to make a much larger decision on where they want the games damage to be. Just as the guys in the video, I strongly feel there was a general significant power creep for both Condie and direct damage. They either need to improve the scaling of Toughness and/or Vit to match, or reduce Power & Condition damage a tad.

If you nerf traits before you solve that fundamental problem, I think you’re just watering down all the hard work put into this giant patch.

This is a fair point.

Saiyan.1704:

Obviously, there are Numerous bugs that needs addressing and burst damage in general is a bit too fast (half a second too fast) for reaction-time-counter play, BUT I do enjoy the quicker gameplay. The overall PvP experience feels better to me and every class feels viable in their own way. I’m having a lot more fun that’s for sure.

Thoughts?

Flame Shield Activated

+1

I’m glad there’s no shortage of “Profession X is Ruining the Game” threads.

The only class that hasn’t been targeted post-patch in this regard is Ranger. Hmmm! Poor Rangers. Seems like they’re the new Mesmer.

@apharma I think a 10s CD based on individual targets similarly to Ineptitude would be the perfect balance for CS. No need to move it to another trait line as it fits perfectly with Domination.

Wait, are there guards in this thread saying Mesmer needs to be nerfed? Guardian is more of a Mesmer counter than thief is after the revamp…

I think Mesmer is in a great place for several reasons:

• More options for survivability that don’t completely kitten our dps (Blinding Dissipation, Signets, the entire Inspiration line, reflects, MoR CD change, NullField 32s)
• Thief not hard countering us anymore (Praise Lyssa for Blinding Dissipation)
• IP being baseline.
• Interrupt traits being easier to take within builds, thus giving us more ability to disrupt enemies like we were always meant to do. Oh, and obviously PU for those choosing that route! lol

I’m happy to see that build diversity is an actual thing. I’m currently running 3 builds at the moment that have all been extremely successful in both ranked team play and ranked solo play:

“Hermetic Inscriptions” i.e. Support Signets: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RZ-Fc;0k2l61S7cWF71;9;4SUV;0048156237;42xlFU;1rRnCrRnC3r
Signets Power Shatter: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-Rg-FR;0k2l61y6gWF71;9;4STW;0047238037;4INlBC;1jzyvjzyv5P
Condi Shatter: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R3SZ;1VPV1187wW-71;9;4UTW;0258238056;4TwW6U;1hoHAhoHA2G

In terms of our relation to other professions:

• Guard: Our biggest counter. Whether I’m on my tank, shatter or condi, guard is always the class I’m worried most about. Their burns are insane. Their dmg is buffed, so they eat through our clones more so than they did more.
• Ele: Diamond skin completely shuts down condi specs. They have even more sustain and ability to clear condis than they did before.
• Engineer: I haven’t seen a single turret engi. They’re all currently exploiting their one trick pony grenade barrage. If you can dodge it, then they are easy as heck to beat. Just keep distance. I’m most interested in seeing how this match up develops over the next month.
• Warrior: Don’t usually have trouble, but they have a lot of sustain. Definitely a brawler. Even match up for the most part.
• Ranger: lol I haven’t run into a few condi specs that are super threatening, but if they’re dps, they’re trash at this point.
• Thief: they now only have a 60% success rate against us instead of the usual 90% thanks to Blinding Dissipation (and Ineptitude as well). And without being an over-buffed class, most thieves aren’t very skilled imo. I’ve had no issue whatsoever with them thus far because of this.
• Necro: Before we countered them. Now I think the match up is more even now. They still are susceptible to to interrupts more so than other classes.

Just wait with your “benevolent balancing feedback” until things settle a bit. Your job is not to find balance or to tell the devs what is strong in your class. They do not read your fine-print about “tone this down” or such. They WILL nerf you hard and then you can be happy to keep on complaining for another 3 years.

You can’t have it both ways. They are aware of our concerns. The problem is that sometimes they listen; most of the time, they don’t!! LOL

The reason we have several of the traits we do now is literally because they took ideas out of the forums. See Mistrust for example. They changed the entire Inspiration tree because of the feedback given to them by Mesmers post the revamp reveal. I’d also like to think we warded off the Maim nerf for 6 hours.

Well, I hate to keep mentioning this, but I’ve been doing extremely well on my support tank with a Cleric’s Amulet. You don’t need crit chance when you have high defense, healing, and constant stream of boons.

Windwalker.7421:

But we could always do this before, why is it suddenly OPd? It’s not like a 50% chance to stun is a poor chance, especially when the Daze is 100%. It had no CD, so theoretically you could have done that combo much more often before the patch.

It’s suddenly OP, because 50% is significantly different from 100%. Your theoretical example is a moot point considering you could not have taken CS, PU, IP and DE simultaneously.

The difference now is that PU lasts longer, making it easier to pull this off with your opponent not being able to see it coming. It was always possible, just not quite as reliable.

Again, see the above about your theoretical example. The difference now is that you can take multiple gms that previously you wouldn’t have been able to. Also, our old gm was buffed and made into an adept…

The problem with asking for nerfs to yourself, before we’re even had the time to explore counters, is that we end up focusing on the wrong issue!

There’s nothing to explore. The only “counter” to MoD is either dodge, aegis or stability. Oh wait, MoD is instant cast… Perma dodge/aegis/stability is not in the game.

The damage nerf is coming, not to us alone, it’ll likely be a broad-spectrum nerf, or maybe a broad-spectrum boost to people’s HPs/Toughness. Once that is there, and CS is nerfed because you asked for it yourself, then you’re right back in the mud puddle that Mesmers were in for years.

CS needs to be balanced. What Mesmers are suggesting is not for a trait to be nerfed to the ground. See this thread here if you’re confused about what your fellow Mesmers want done to CS: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Confounding-Suggestions-Suggestion/first#post5209372

It was never that “one nerf” that made Mesmers so uncompetitive. It was a series of over-nerfs, followed by a series of completely indirect nerfs that together watered the profession down.

I think people who believe that after only 5 days they know exactly what needs to be nerfed, and what doesn’t, for not only Mesmers but also other classes and the game as a whole, are just self-righteous loudmouths. You will never balance this game by following the vocal crowd.

I agree with the first paragraph. No one is advocating for over-nerfs. Where are you seeing these posts from Mesmers. Again, please direct me to them. Otherwise, I consider it hyperbole & conjecture.

Of course, deluding yourself in thinking that anyone is actually interested in achieving balance, including Anet, is probably the first mistake people like me make. ;-)

You have a right to be distrusting of Anet based on their biased treatment against Mesmer for 3 years. In terms of whether I’m interested or not in balance… Check my post history.

edited to add: Since some people seem to confuse my helpful suggestions with somehow being “self-defeating”, for the record, I don’t think Mesmer is an OP class. With very little information and time on our side, I think the strongest classes are Mesmer, Ele, Guard and Engi. I don’t think any class is necessarily weak outside of perhaps Ranger. I’m actually loving what each class has brought to my matches thus far. That’s my official opinion.

Fay.2357:

MailMail.6534:

Check out the build in my signature. I don’t have any trouble taking damage from zerkers/maurauders. This could partially be because of the high amount of invuln and reflects.

That being said, everyone is dishing out a good amount of damage.

Really, not dying is a function of active defense right now, not passively being able to soak damage. In a tanky rabid condition build, if I eat a full burst from a power mesmer…I die. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Very true. That being said, if you’re trying to tank, you’re going to need an amulet that’s better fit for it than Rabid. <16 health is not efficient for tanking without having something like healing or vitality. This is of course strictly speaking for Mesmers.

Wow, are we actually having a discussion about tank Mesmers?! I never thought the day would come!!

Check out the build in my signature. I don’t have any trouble taking damage from zerkers/maurauders. This could partially be because of the high amount of invuln and reflects.

That being said, everyone is dishing out a good amount of damage.

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective, “clone death” builds are no more. The good news is that condition dmg is actually ok in PvE now based on what I’ve heard from others. If this is your preferred style of play, there’s hope for you. I don’t really play PvE, but there are many elements to it that would call for different builds.

You mentioned solo-PvE. Does this mean you’re doing open world content? Silverwastes? Dungeons? Fractals? That would help in people helping you to come up with another build.

StickerHappy.8052:

MailMail.6534:

StickerHappy.8052:

MailMail.6534:

Sticker, there is nothing “righteous” or “honorable” about asking for balance among all professions. No one is asking for nerfs that “will make us a skilled class”.

What posts are you guys reading? I’m not seeing exactly what you guys are. Quotes would be nice, because there’s a disconnect between me and these sentiments that Mesmers are “self-defeating” in any shame or form.

The self defeating posts is that we get Blinding Dissipation then we say it is OP, we get Confounding Suggestions rework then we say its OP, do other classes award us for doing that? They are just laughing at us.

I don’t believe I’ve seen a single Mesmer say BD is OP. It’s the trait that has MOST improved our survivability imho. It’s also turned thief from our hard counter to simply a counter which is what it should be.

Confounding Suggestions is definitely OP. Do you disagree that having an automatic unavoidable(Mantra of Distraction + a myriad of other dazes) stun with no counter-play every 5s is balanced? You keep saying the word “self-defeating”, but I don’t believe asking for balanced professions is “self-defeating”.

It is, dude do you think other classes think we are “honorable” asking for our stuff to be balanced, hell no. This is even works to their advantage.

I don’t care what other classes think or what works to their advantage. I want a balanced game, and if that isn’t every player’s goal, they’re hurting the system.

StickerHappy.8052:

MailMail.6534:

Sticker, there is nothing “righteous” or “honorable” about asking for balance among all professions. No one is asking for nerfs that “will make us a skilled class”.

What posts are you guys reading? I’m not seeing exactly what you guys are. Quotes would be nice, because there’s a disconnect between me and these sentiments that Mesmers are “self-defeating” in any shame or form.

The self defeating posts is that we get Blinding Dissipation then we say it is OP, we get Confounding Suggestions rework then we say its OP, do other classes award us for doing that? They are just laughing at us.

I don’t believe I’ve seen a single Mesmer say BD is OP. It’s the trait that has MOST improved our survivability imho. It’s also turned thief from our hard counter to simply a counter which is what it should be.

Confounding Suggestions is definitely OP. Do you disagree that having an automatic unavoidable(Mantra of Distraction + a myriad of other dazes) stun with no counter-play every 5s is balanced? You keep saying the word “self-defeating”, but I don’t believe asking for balanced professions is “self-defeating”.

Sticker, there is nothing “righteous” or “honorable” about asking for balance among all professions. No one is asking for nerfs that “will make us a skilled class”.

What posts are you guys reading? I’m not seeing exactly what you guys are. Quotes would be nice, because there’s a disconnect between me and these sentiments that Mesmers are “self-defeating” in any shame or form.

Solori.6025:

So I noticed that on every other subforum people are embracing there new abilities, figuring out new builds and counters. Then you have us. Asking for every new thing we received to be Nerfed. Not looking at the big picture.
People are pointing fingers at every one and everything.

But in this class community.
We have people advocating for everything we have be Nerfed into the ground before the dust for a new meta even settles.
why are we like this? I am genuinely curious.

You are utterly wrong.

I have not seen a single Mesmer ask for any nerfs outside of PU, the 5% reduction recharge on Staff and Confounding Suggestions. If you’d like to debate why these things need to be nerfed/balanced, I’m ready to have that debate any day.

Like I’ve said in other threads, there’s nothing “self-defeating” about adding your opinion on BALANCE. It doesn’t matter what class you play. Players like myself who ask for balanced skills/traits across all professions should not be criticized. People who do such are part of the problem, not the solution to a balanced game.

messiah.1908:

guys you forget something

confusion on shatter was there before the patch so confusion stacking was always there
now the torment got nerfed to mtd build got nerfed whether you can stack confusion
as you could did it before

Mailmail – video is uploading so i would love to hear your thoughts

Confusion sucked before. Confusion is a lot stronger now. And you could not stack confusion like you can now with Ineptitude/Blinding Dissipation.

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

There’s no argument about what is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. You’re apparently the only one in the dark about this. Illusions and the shattering of such is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. We’re going in circles with the discussion, and I don’t care to repeat myself.

Like I said before, phantasm builds are in a great state right now both in PvE and PvP even. Click on the build in my signature, Hermetic Inscriptions, for a fantastic current example of such. There are plenty of phantasm build options right now. I don’t really know what else you want out of this discussion. lol

What I want is not for the community. The purpose of my post is to inform Anet not to keep pushing us to shatter. Who knows what changes they might make next?

What you want is a different class with a different defining class mechanic. There’s 7 others. 8 when HoT comes out.

There’s no argument about what is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. You’re apparently the only one in the dark about this. Illusions and the shattering of such is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. We’re going in circles with the discussion, and I don’t care to repeat myself.

Like I said before, phantasm builds are in a great state right now both in PvE and PvP even. Click on the build in my signature, Hermetic Inscriptions, for a fantastic current example of such. There are plenty of phantasm build options right now. I don’t really know what else you want out of this discussion. lol

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

dank.3680:

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

Yes, a huge number of warrior traits are tied into adrenaline. There are a lot of things adrenaline can be used for. Condi cleansing, burst damage, and even restoring itself. My point is that even if warriors never trait anything for adrenaline, they will still have those skills available to use when the time comes.

Anet has never said “We want warriors to use adrenaline” – duh, why would they! It’s obvious that adrenaline is a huge benefit to a warrior. Yet Anet has said more than once “We want mesmers to shatter more”. There is a reason for that. A reason why mesmers use their class mechanic less than all other classes.

No disrespect, but effing DUH! That’s the entire point. That’s why our shatters have been so immensely buffed with all of our baseline stuff as well as the ability to trait for multiple shatter traits… It is now VERY lucrative to shatter no matter what build you’re playing in most cases. There is a lot less drawback from shattering than there was before the revamp. That is a fact.

Personally I don’t think Anet should worry about what playstyle people choose to have – all they need to worry about is balance. If as a mesmer I never shatter, that should be none of Anet’s concern. I feel uneasy when they talk about imposing a particular style of play on me.

The class mechanic is to shatter. It’s not about playstyle, but more about basic design. It is inherently bad design in and of itself if for whatever reason, we are discouraged to shatter. For 3 years now, we have been discouraged to shatter. Even our best build (power) was limited because of the design.

What they’re imposing on you 3 years later is what it should have been at the start. Sorry you’re having trouble adjusting.

I feel the mesmer is not defined only by shatter, but also by phantasms, clones and (maybe) mantras. It’s a very weird philosophy of Anet’s if they care about people’s playstyles! How does it matter to anyone?

I don’t think you read my post. It’s not about playstyle. It’s about reinforcing the basic design of the class that was poorly implemented in the beginning and for the last 3 years. The Mesmer is not defined by Mantras (classes are starting to share utilities via specializations; see Wells) but by illusions and shattering. Think Lyssa the dual goddess and the Chaos line. Mesmer has always been a “pull & push” kind of profession.