Maybe the NBA should give 10 pts for free throws. That’s what we have in WVW right now.
They have to be careful about how they change it but it needs to change. It’s broken.
I read that statement on the poll and I was totally confused by it even being considered.
This is a game mode that’s active 24/7, not four hours each day.
The fuzzy math of some people in this thread doesn’t make sense. Making someone’s time spent playing less valuable than someone else’s due to their life schedule is has no place in a game running 24/7. You either get the points or you don’t.
p.s. I was about to mention making special objectives only obtainable by large groups or something similar, which means that off hours could still do it but unlikely. Something that, or like what SkyShroud described.
Night players are worth far more than day players. The server linking helped but it’s still the case. Far, far more.
As far as PPT, a good night crew will make day fighting almost useless.
An hour spent by a night player is the same length of game time as a day player. Just because one may face more resistance than the other isn’t the player’s fault and they should not be penalized for it.
Fighting for 2 hours to cap SM should get you more than strolling through the gates with a couple golems and not enough defenders to be a threat.
Winning a skirmish over a camp and then fending off roamers and havoc groups should be worth more than capping every camp on the map in 10 minutes and then letting them sit.
Right now players that play against other players are the ones getting penalized. Badly. If you’re playing late at night and cap something despite resistance you should be rewarded.
I read that statement on the poll and I was totally confused by it even being considered.
This is a game mode that’s active 24/7, not four hours each day.
The fuzzy math of some people in this thread doesn’t make sense. Making someone’s time spent playing less valuable than someone else’s due to their life schedule is has no place in a game running 24/7. You either get the points or you don’t.
p.s. I was about to mention making special objectives only obtainable by large groups or something similar, which means that off hours could still do it but unlikely. Something that, or like what SkyShroud described.
Night players are worth far more than day players. The server linking helped but it’s still the case. Far, far more.
As far as PPT, a good night crew will make day fighting almost useless.
yeah power reaper/necro is still an awesome zerg bird. Just have to get on the pirate ship and start flinging wells and marks + stab up and do some reaping when the other blob breaks up.
Yeah this usually happens to me when I get knocked down while trying to dodge or stun break or maybe just after. When it happens on ele I have to reset to fix it. Nothing will work. I can use all skills but can’t move or jump. Really annoying in the middle of a big fight.
When it happens on reaper I can usually clear it up with a movement skill.
Yeah low tier here too. I understand some of the sentiment behind things being too busy. It can be a bit of a culture shock.
I’m loving it though. We can roam, havoc whatever and there will always be fights. Camps flip back and forth and actually get defended. Small skirmishes between roaming groups everywhere. You just have to be more aware of where the blobs are and ready to disengage if you’re about to get rolled by a larger group.
Oh and SM fights are basically a slideshow lol
I must be living on a different planet than those that see the chill nerfs as “buffs”.
Chill applying bleed is indeed a buff in PvE, less so in WvW and PvP I’d argue
Bleed on chill is only a buff in PvE team fights against major bosses when running a condition damage build.
Do pve people actually bother to switch to staff/shroud or do they just camp scepter? Thought most of their bleed came through minions and scepter? I honestly don’t know but curious as I thought about gearing my necro for raids instead of WVW.
As far as queue times, duelers at least raise their level of play via practice and sometimes do some roaming or havoc. People standing around at spawn afk would be the dead queue spots.
Duelers can also act a bit like scouts.
The changes and actually having fights there completely salvaged BLs for me. I’m fine with them now when I couldn’t stand them before. Could still use some polish but doesn’t make me go into blind rage trying to get to a fight anymore.
I don’t think it’s really an issue unless they are tapping things or messing with siege/dolys. Stomping, ganging up on incoming, flipping sentries etc etc.
Dueling in EBG is like playing basketball in the street though. You keep one eye on the road to make sure you’re not going to get run over.
I think Moa should turn you into random animals. Not just birds. I’m tired of being turned into a bird and then stunlocked. Frog, lizard, something else…
Been watching this thread as I just haven’t been able to figure this out without going back to a power build.
Think I’ll give it another shot tonight. I slapped my tempest in condi gear for fun and the near instant and ridiculous 7k burn ticks were just stupid crazy.
Glad some are apparently able to make it work. Everything I’ve tried just made me feel like other classes have much better options.
I can understand from a PvE stand point, Yes, it will stack bleeds but even with that, it still doesnt compare to how much condition damage other classes push out. In a realistic fight against other real people, this is a huge nerf. 1 sec of chill duration for 671 damage is better than 1 stack of bleed for 120. With the amount of dodges, invul, blocks, and immune, you are luck to get 4-6 stacks of bleed with a necro. Not to mention that resistance is becoming more available so when someone gets 3 sec of resistance, all my condi damage is useless and with people running -20% condi dur, all you need is 3 sec of resistance to cancel the damage. Also, many other classes now gain regen very easily which counters bleed and poison pretty easy. I agree that it was strong even with the previous nerf but instead of getting rid of its damage they could of toned it down to like 500ish @1700 condition and have the trait remove one or both of the other abilities chill gave. So it would force the player to chose damage over speed and skill reduction.
With the amount of boon corruption we have, other classes melt between the conditions we pump out and the boons they try to use that we corrupt. Even with a decent number of cleanses, it’s pretty much impossible to be condi free with a necro going at you. And that hasn’t changed with the change of one trait.
It has. If you cleanse the bleed, you are gucci to go.
Exactly. And melt is a strong word unless you meant us.
And before they could cleanse the chill. I don’t see how that’s an argument.
Chill wasn’t our “other” primary damage set, was instant (did more damage up front, and didn’t need stacked every time to deal significant damage) pressure. Our chills also last less time making it easier to remove bleeds. I have a hard time seeing how anyone thinks this isn’t a massive nerf… It’s very logical and simple. o.O
But before if they cleansed, they removed the chill AND the damage. Now they have to remove 2 conditions instead of one to get rid of all the suck they are dealing with.
Before they needed to cleanse chill+bleed, now just bleed.
Wrong. Before they just need to cleanse chill to remove chill damage. I think chill gets removed 1st (someone please verify) now if they remove chill bleed still does damage. Now fear hits with 4 conditions to help cover the damage. I still would rather see Torment instead of bleed but it’s not as bad as I initially thought. I think I’m going to make more of a hybrid with some power but chillomancer isn’t dead as far as I’m concerned.
Since everyone seemed to have ignored this, I’ll reply so you can read it again.
If they manage to cleanse the bleed (hint full condi clears or classes with crazy cleanse) you have to start all over on dc bleeds without cooldowns. Before you’d just throw another chill on and be good to go.
Chill getting cleansed really wasn’t much of an issue except on classes with traits that made it crazy easy (daredevil) because there was literally no ramp up time and one or two ticks actually did some damage.
Meh guess I should just give up on this lol. Condi reapers are ok to hug now lol.
You could lay chill on someone for instant, steady damage. Bleed takes 4 to 6 times more landed attacks to stack up. For those bleeds to be dc bleeds that means using skills that apply chill.
With chill you could just re-apply if they cleansed. Not really rocket science and the instant dps is back. Bleed needs re-stacked if cleansed. Doesn’t matter if chill was slightly easier to cleanse as it had instant ramp up and easy to apply again.
I’m still not getting why this is so hard to see. Feels like people are counting every bleed we apply as a dc bleed.
No not every bleed is from DC, but I think because of the way bleed works you do kind of have to take other bleed effects into account as well.
If a trait such as DC affects bleed and that condition stacks and you’re using more skills that apply bleed, you should look at your overall bleed damage and how you can make it better. Because that’s what it is about when you take several traits, skills, runes, sigils whatever that affect one thing, it’s not about how much damage those chilling skills do compared to before. Chill and bleed have different synergy.
Atleast that’s what I do because I think about why and how I’m gonna use a trait..
I could totally see this if the trait actually modified bleed. A damage modifier like thief has for poison, for example, and I’m not sure anyone would be complaining about this. It would actually be pretty solid and build defining.
Cannon is just another death trap for aoe spam. If you’re shooting at any decent sized group with a cannon you’re putting your life on the line unless it’s an upper sm cannon.
Been in a lot of great fights on BL today. SoS has been great to be linked with so far. Just really enjoying all this and hoping that anet continues to give WVW attention.
You could lay chill on someone for instant, steady damage. Bleed takes 4 to 6 times more landed attacks to stack up. For those bleeds to be dc bleeds that means using skills that apply chill.
With chill you could just re-apply if they cleansed. Not really rocket science and the instant dps is back. Bleed needs re-stacked if cleansed. Doesn’t matter if chill was slightly easier to cleanse as it had instant ramp up and easy to apply again.
I’m still not getting why this is so hard to see. Feels like people are counting every bleed we apply as a dc bleed.
Seems a lot better but may still need a bit of a tweak. We just spent a bunch of time kiting a blob of 50+ with maybe 20 to 25. Those front liners are already barreling through pretty easy. Adjust it too much and you break any hope of a smaller group being able to choke larger groups.
Still not fun to get completely stun locked from 100 to 0 with stab stripped and stun break useless. Maybe stun breaks should get a little boost?
Mine’s parked for awhile. Just can’t find a build I like. Power is actually fun still just far from optimal. Too hard trying to chase people down. Don’t feel like changing the stats on my armor yet either.
Tried full bleed but bleed is so weak and trying to stack it is tedious. Feels like trying to ride a bicycle up a hill in high gear.
Power wells still works fine for zerging. And now with reduced cooldowns on the 1.5 wells worth using.
I’m not sure I like the idea of nerfing the host servers representation of identity just to make us smaller servers feel better. Seems like that could add salt where we actually need less of it.
Not sure I want to be red team green team etc either. I’d probably be happy if scoreboard and BL names used both server names. Maybe same for capture msgs.
I think that would go a long ways without being too complicated. I don’t really care what the enemy sees.
So great that WVW is finally getting attention. I hope it continues.
I also purchased HoT awhile back for the sole purpose of having elite specs for WVW. Bought more gems this week for storage and character slots as well…directly effected by the success of this patch. Even despite getting one of my builds nerfed all to hell lol
Honestly at least changing the score and tick indicators, BL names and capture msgs to say host land and guest land would be something. That might even be enough.
Our server was/is awesome. Just really small. Tier 7 but we still have a couple decent sized wvw guilds. A lot of pride there when we’re mowing down 50 with 30. Would like to keep our identity.
Doesn’t really do any good to assume you’ll have to wait 2 hours in queue every day of the week from now on. You will just stress yourself out.
Besides, tomorrow it could be 4. My guess is that it will get much better though. Beta and all
Yeah if we had to drop the whole chill thing altogether to get something meaningful I’d be for that. Right now this really doesn’t matter unless you land shroud 5/4. And they’d likely be dead anyway.
Without that combo you have to blow all your cooldowns, traits, runes and sigils for maybe 5 or 6 bleed stacks and then maintain it somehow with no cooldowns left. It needs a lot to prop the trait up.
Or maybe have a tempest handy for frost armor.
+1 to good job. Queues will get better and this is a new and very big change. I’m sure anet is looking for ways to improve performance and trim down queue times…among other things.
Nobody expected it to be perfect right away. Or maybe some people did lol
Yes, loving this so far. Kind of wish smaller servers had some kind of server tag to rep our community.
We had big queues tonight but late there were no queues and there was decent activity on every map. Good for roaming and small group stuff. So not always 3 zergs stuffed into durio with 60000 red circles.
Yes absolutely loving these changes so far. Haven’t seen much of our buddy server but we had nonstop good fights in BL. Zvzvz small groups 1v1 2 3 5 etc etc. Coming from tier 7 it’s basically reset night on a serious caffeine high and good match ups.
So glad they smoothed out borderlands a bit first.
And so much loot!
I actually love the idea of adding a damage modifier on this. I think if you could go with something like 2 bleed stacks at 4 seconds and then throw in a damage mod for bleed it would make it worthy and very desirable for condi builds.
You would be able to stack bleed, the chill bleeds would be a bit more bursty and the trait would give benefit to all bleeds so actual synergy with scepter/dagger.
With chill there really wasn’t a need to unload every chill skill at once to try and stack dmg. You could chill them, cash in on an extra and immediate 850/900 tick full condi and then chill again if they cleanse.
It’s soft cc and very useful. It was actually pretty scary (hence the nerf) and made fear crazy good as well. Getting chilled for even 2 or 3 ticks hurt, as did getting feared for even 1.5.
You could land 1 hit from a skill with a relatively large cooldown and have it be meaningful dmg. Yeah now you can stack higher damage on training golems but this completely changes fights. You have to spam 3 or 4 chill skills in the same 2 or 3 seconds to try and lay down even close to the same pressure.
You can still wreck people if you catch them with enough but in many cases they’d be dead with or without this trait.
It’s fun to say 10 to 15 (if you land like every chill source in the game) extra bleeds do more damage but the extra ramp up time completely changes most situations and gives all those spammy heal and cleanse classes more time to cycle cooldowns that are usually shorter than ours.
And all the runes/sigils/traits it takes to have enough sources of chill is just annoying. If you can keep someone on the hook for 6 to 8 seconds, landing everything then you may get some ok ticks. Not compared to other classes but ok. If you manage to get someone to stand in dhumfire you’ll do better and cleave like a boss.
If you find someone like that, though, just run a power build. They’ll die a ton faster.
Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.
Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.
At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.
At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days
DC doesn’t have great effect so it’s not really possible in current form unless you can find someone that will let you land shroud combo every time it’s off cooldown. Bit like blighter’s boon actually. Looks like it need a few other traits just to try and prop it up.
Yep most decent people will block, invuln, evade, kite, los and then cleanse when pressure starts stacking up. Chill dmg gave our condi extra burst. Sure it needed dialed back but turning us back into bleed stackers seems harsh.
Pve could be a different story. Not sure it’s really efficient, and seems like a different trait line would be better, but I don’t pve much so I’m probably clueless.
Would love to see the math on this. I guess staff 2, 3 and 5 are still worth swapping for but I don’t see bleed on chill really making a ton of difference unless you land the shroud combo.
Why not just scepter auto for those 8 seconds? Mix in 2, 5 and 3. Get poison, torment, cripple, weakness and up to 2 bleed stacks per cast(5 and 4 on 2 and 5 + aoe). Better duration bleeds and you don’t need to blow 2 weapon sets and shroud worth of cool downs.
You can also stay out of melee instead of having to close for reaper shroud. Which begs the question…why reaper shroud?
Would rather spite sig or bip than deal with suffer for an 8 sec bleed. At least you get something for it or boon corrupt.
Yeah mark me down as one of the people with l2p issues cause I’m still not getting it lol
Chill at least gave us a steady tick that hurt. Could full unload cooldowns on someone and end up with a nice 2k tick or so for a few seconds. Even if they cleanse 2 ticks later you did some damage.
Yeah it killed people dead that didn’t have cleanse and were running around with 12k hp. Power wipes them faster though and cleanse doesn’t help. They just don’t get that helpless melting feeling and cry on forums later (to be clear I understand why condi needed dialed back)
At the moment our best bleed weapon set is scepter/dagger but no chill on it. You would have to trait chill on blind with the terrible icd or you have to rely on stupid people letting you drop a shroud 5 on them and then spin with nerfed stab uptime.
You could at least get a bit of chill in spite or spamming staff aoes (not even close to worth it now). You could take focus and use spinal shivers. None of this is near worth a single stack of bleed though. Dagger 5 is better and aoe. Spite trait they’re probably dieing from bleed anyway (health threshold) and will probably either die soon or cleanse your full bleed stack.
You could bring a great sword I guess lol.
Basically this single stack of bleed is just getting in the way of stacking bleed more efficiently. Unless you have an idiot willing to let you shroud 5 + 4 on them or you’re killing someone and have spinal shivers proc from spite this is a dps loss just to take the trait. Not even considering old chill dmg.
Really just drop a poison field and spin if you want to combo. Scepter auto more efficient than trying to chill and has boon corrupt (and can proc poison + an extra stack of bleed with curses).
TLDN : Not worth it in WVW. Doesn’t synergise well with condi builds. Dead trait. Lost burst potential.
Necro kind of feels all old school now. Like driving a Ford Pinto.
Oh we get to chase people around with scepter…only with nerfed chill uptime. I look forward to getting kited even more while working hard to stack those pitiful bleeds.
Naw actually probably time to bust the daggers out again and pretend I’m a thief with bad mobility and sub par burst. A thief with no legs and silverware instead of daggers.
Maybe even skip reaper line completely and ignore the awful base ds
Was nice while it lasted. Wish they had done something for power builds. Stab nerf effects them too unfortunately.
Let us all become minion masters lol
1 stack of bleed lol
I think it hurts if you’re crushing the other side and you actually want fights during the week. It’s easy to get bored and keep pushing when you have a weak matchup but sometimes better to let the other side recover a bit so you’ll have stuff to do and fights to be had later.
If they give up then WVW is more dead than usual for the week.
Yea it’s a bit crazy. I always like to cannon with condi reaper for the crazy op chill ticks. 2500+ condi dmg behind a cannon will mess a small group up really quick.
I’ll cry when they fix it but it should probably get fixed.
I like the fine tuning we can do with actual gear. Stuffing everything into amulets is too simplified for wvw. Wvw not really meant to be even. You run something…maybe meta maybe not…and tweak all the little details until they work for some of your favorite wvw situations. You get blown up a few times and either adjust a little, change everything or go full meta.
I would love having separate armor/weapons/trinkets for wvw though. I would actually love 3 or 4 armor sets that we could switch in and out of while out of combat and full hp.
Carrying stuff for pve, wvw, raid/dungeon/fractal is a pain.
I think the total amount of death shroud should be count in half, but necros should be allowed to use their heal, utilities, and elite to compensate
yeah cut it in half and give them invul and blocks + evades sounds fair
Yes please! We can call it a nerf if it helps everyone else feel better. I’m usually only in shroud for 3 or 4 seconds anyway. If I’m in longer it’s probably because 2 thieves, 2 rangers and a rev are trying to kill me.
More mobility too while we’re at it.
+1 for rise for helping against heavy focus. It actually works really well for that even in medium sized group fights. I believe the dmg reduction pulses in like 3 secs so good chance you’ll get at least a few seconds reduction even in heavy aoe.
Love spectral armor too though. Wish I had room for both.
+1 to not having to grind PvE for hours for a stupid recipe.
Loot based on tick is pretty interesting if we could solve some of the population and coverage issues. The only ktraining I see on my server is when the other server night caps everything every night and gradually pulls 50k to 100k ahead by end of week.
I try to tell myself I don’t care about ppt but I hate losing.
+1 for internal cooldown on stack use. I think we can find a balance there instead of going back to biggest Zerg pushes at will. We spent a couple hours farming 20v40 last night. With old stab that would be much more difficult.
Mixed feelings on this. On one hand always getting hard focused with tons of cc…easiest to just spam buttons here as you’re prob getting dazed over and over. That’s when I normally double tap shroud and either get myself killed or make my situation much much worse.
On the other hand, reaper mobility still sucks so it’s nice to be able to flash in and out of shroud for our pathetic gap closer. If you don’t flash back out you get caught by the 1 second hitch in the skill. Also our best projectile defense.
Like a half sec shroud cool down would prob work though. Stop most of the accidental double taps and still let us flash shroud.