You don’t want to fight them when they have their greatsword out, it’s huge AoE damage, instead when they have their GS out, you kit with SB and apply poison, most of the time they will have gs skill heal trait.
then when they are with sword or scepter and focus, go in and damage, focus block can be broken before it explodes.
and after one rotate, guardians have 10 second weapon swap and weapon skill CD, you see them chasing you auto attacking it’s not because they are doing w/e, they are just aaing because thats all they can do. so you gotta bait med guard to use it’s CDs when first engage
and about DD, basically, don’t get him start his rotation, when hes in fire, you burst him down, before he can place fire field and swap to earth for protection, basically if you can mess up his rotation hes easy kill, but that only applies to zerker, if its cele, don’t bother, or just perma kit and land perfect ice spike and hope he make mistake
btw, i wouldn’t recommand DP against med guard, med guard hard counters DP then anything else like SD, med inside blinding power hurts..a lot.
its gonna be overused by everyone like the shattered wings and then no body will use it anymore because it’s overused.
i literally 100-0 myself using rush on stairs in temple trying to get that tranq
Really awesome!
Reason why people don’t complain about scepter or staff ele is because both build lose 1vs1 to all meta builds ate equal skill level.
nah, people don’t take scepter, because they get farmed by thieves.
btw what level do you want to nerf DD to?
You don’t have to level up.
You can access PvP and WvW from level 2.
They revamped it long ago when they release chinese version of the game.
any new account needs to level up to 22
Step one, Increase cast time to 3/4 for grasping grab or w/e it’s called, indirect nerf to DD protection chaining, does not affect other classes nor elemental shielding.
step two, decrease the duration of boon received by teamate by 50% which makes it 3 seconds instead of 6. decrease DD’s team support ability, too much support for the sustain it has.
step 3, reverse frozen aura buff.
Voila
a good player period
doesnt matter the class.the synergy is real. dont even need mic
I just disagree with the way you and the other ranger argue and I disagree with your claims what thieves do, can and should do..
Lol, dude, you didn’t even know DP had teleportation..
if you actually use the time you spent writing all these non sense to learn your own class, you would already be 10 times better.
btw i won’t be responding any more, because i wasn’t even have to argue anything to begin. and btw, try other classes, it will stop your tunnel vision and actually make you know your own class better as well for real.
The human gods again? Can the Charr at least get stuff that is already in game even if they are outfits?
http://i.imgur.com/6GuDIrC.jpg (I would love this for my Engineer)
i like fire is cooler
make ghastly claw ground target AoE lol.
Silver tier solo roamer here.
Have never been to gold but to me a server without roamers is lost, so I bet they have them too.
Why am I a roamer? Because of PPT and because I can’t really run in zergs anymore, although I also roamed when zerging was still possible and when I was able to defend (against 1) myself in my zerging roamer gear.
As you can imagine my skill and trait setup is matching my purpose – If I were a duellist I would have other skills than I have now – I would even have different weapons and traits.
There are less ambient or whatever creatures around than you make it appear and porting to an enemy door is deadly in 99% of all cases as there are veteran guards in front of it – and I’m not so sure if it’s even possible, I’ll have a try.
Anyway, there are quite a lot 1vs1 or 1vs2 when capping or defending camps or flipping ogres, frogs and moles.
But most roamers aren’t solo roamers anymore, I rarely see any thief alone. I see rangers solo roaming.
The main reason for thieves to be “good roamers” is SR and SB when encountering an enemy zerg coming in.Edit: And let me think how many times any D/P thief has used #3 on me lately.. didn’t happen.. guess they save their initative for more important stuff. Or maybe they just need a coach to L2P.
Lol the majority of thieves in WvW are completely noob carried by build and shadow rejuv, have no idea how to play the class properly even i can kill them with no effort on my thief (i only play thief in WvW and i rarely WvW). (ofc there are exception of a few good players).
and i am in no position defending ranger, LB ranger and thief are equally boring to go against. LB ranger takes really no skill to begin with, while thief takes a bit more skill, that’s a fact.
and i wasn’t even arguing in the topic, i was just laughing at some comments, but apparently some one called me out i guess.
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lol shadow shot is like the biggest part of dp’s in fight defensive sustain outside of stealth
does surprise me how many thieves in thief forum don’t know how to play a thief.Great, can you explain?
Like, I can’t see myself in a situation where I need to get out and I do shadow shot which brings me closer to the target, blinds the target for 1 attack ofc…
So yeah please elaborate how it can be used defensively and how it’s the “biggest part of dp’s in fight defensive sustain outside of stealth”.
Do you shadow shot then evade and then shadow shot again to repeat the cycle? (that’s not really shadow shot alone that’s doing all the magic…) Feel like I’m missing something here…
Honestly I would think that SB’s disabling shot is more defensive than shadow shot.
Not surprising again.
most people in this section of forum just don’t know how to properly play their main.
you have no idea how useful fast blind like this can be.
btw by “in fight” which means in fight, i don’t consider SB 3 spamming = in fights, that’s disengaging.
first of all, when you see a thief with venom, you land a shadow shot, and his zenom will already be useless.
or you just see any thief, you land a shadow shot, they will not try to steal which is the skill that determines the fight most of the time or will the sword 2 hit cause immo which will follow by strong AA damage majority of the time with sword, the only option is to melee or throw dagger, or also use shadowshot or headshot which is pretty much waste of initiative cuz non of these will hit, or SB.
and way against big hit class like warrior, hammer, do i need to say more?
greatsword rush and arcing slice are also predictable single big hit that can be easily countered by shadow shot. killshot, evis?
Oh BTW, you know whats a cleansing ire? it’s the freaking skill that warrior use to clean conditions, you blind that earthshaker, killshot evis, arcing slice. either they have a longbow, or sorry no cleanse for you today.
and shadowshot is also unblockable blind, which means when engi has gear block, you can still blind him cuz him not to able do pry bar which is huge condition and direct damage if cele, and force him to swtich out of gear kit or they can choose to use slow auto attack to clear blind which results in taking heavy dagger AA damage.
should i teach you guys more how to play a thief properly?
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Elemental Attunement, please
5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown is already ridic, when combined with 2 ele, it’s even more ridic..
Elemental attunement is a master trait. Out of 4 boons only 2 are really good: protection and regen. Regen is good mostly because sinergizes with other traits. The other 2 swiftness and 1stack of might are weak. The self protection should stay the same. Protection is here for a reason eles have low hp and light armor.
I would say that elemental shielding, a minor trait, giving 3s base protection (4s traited) is the real problematic one. Maybe they could change from 3s protection to 2s swiftness+2s protection. Or any other boon like retal. Look at how Zephy’s boons works. Has 2 boons on a higher base duration (5s) and is not as op as Elemental shielding.
While elemental attunement can work with any ele weapon elemental shielding works better in main hand dagger users. This happens because if you have a main hand dagger you have 2 auras. Staff or scepter will have only 1. Nerfing elemental attunement will hurt almost all ele builds. Nerf elemental shielding will be a bigger nerf for d/d than anything else.
ill give me thoughts here.
I’m not saying that elemantal attunement is strong because the boons it provide to ele himself, but the AoE effect. doubled with another ele, you get on insanely high on demand team protection that has no counter play other then boon strip, not only for regular team sustain, also useful for rezzes etc
we should look at it’s supportive effect, maybe lower it for boons duration applied to allies.
as of elemental shielding, it will just kill ele’s self survivbility which can easily results in DD build being completely dead if we don’t be careful about it, it’s meant to be work good with DD because DD is a close ranged weapon set which is why they gave it so many access to aura..
personally, i’ve suggested a different way of making elemental shielding less good for DD, which is increase cast time on Magnetic Grasp to 3/4. this is the combo DD use to chain their protection. So this is a dagger skill which DD used to chain protection via fire aura via elemental shielding. so basically it will make DD chain protection more difficult by providing more counter plays, not simply nerfing the trait and affect every single build out there.
but i don’t really care w/e you guys want to do with this trait,
imo elemental attunement is one OP trait that makes multi ele insanely desirable in teams not elemental shielding.
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no no no no please no, let them have grenth armor
make balthazar heavy armor only plox
please release naoooooooooooooooooo
i need dyes to make my armor with twilight like effect
so i can be one with the legendary greatsword and become the real berserker of darkness
the perfect weapon armor combination
hahahahayhahhahahaha
just imagine the coolness..
i need the helmet
Nerf Turret engi please. it takes no skill and it’s bullshet, even minions are easier to kill then turrets…
i just had a turret engi eat two full hundred blades + blade trail + whirlwind attack + rush + arcing slice and hes no where close to dead and he rezed his teamate, whattt
yolo swagggsssssssssss
Elemental Attunement, please
5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown is already ridic, when combined with 2 ele, it’s even more ridic..
lol shadow shot is like the biggest part of dp’s in fight defensive sustain outside of stealth
does surprise me how many thieves in thief forum don’t know how to play a thief.
Maybe it’s too strong on every single of these things ?
“best 1vs1 proff, especially on point”
“too much damage for its sustain”
“too much sustain for its damage”
“too much mobility”
“too much support”
“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s not like bunker guard ( full support) is any better, not even on condi clears.
Bunk guard with soldier runes = 2/30+2/35+2/60 = 1 condi clear every 15 secs ( approx).
1 ele properly rotating its attunements will give 1 condi clear every 10 secs AND more healz.
50% prot uptime and might stacking.
Moreover it can be stacked, something u just can’t do with eles.
Basically EVERY SINGLE ELE ASPECT IS OP.
The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
best 1vs1 proff, especially on point
It’s not.too much damage for its sustain
Not really.too much sustain for its damage
That isn’t the culprit.too much mobility
I’d agree with this.too much support
Two Ele’s in Group is.
[i] ahem,{/i] Cleansing Water’s icd of 5 was changed to 0… nerf to 2s icd pls.“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s fine.The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
Have you fought a good guard? You should duel me sometime.
tell me why is it used every where and it’s considered op?
mobility can’t be it, because thief has way more mobility, and i doubt it’s only cleansing water either. it has to be something, much like multiple things that make ele stands out so much! you tell me man.
and engi will still do very good compare to other builds with same role like staff ele, for the close to zerker engi damage out put, access to a lot of conditions to cover, and good survibility and kitting ability
and about Overcharge shot, no, it will never be predictable, it has no cast time, it will always be pure RNG, you think it’s predictable, only because the engis you’ve meet use it at the same situation every time or they are simply bad and try to use it the moment you get close.
one more thing about overcharge with no cast time, it’s almost impossible to predict that in big team fights.
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Oh my, what are you rangers all doing here?
D/P has got no teleports, S/D and S/P have.
Every thief has got potential access to shadowstep but I wouldn’t call that “tons of teleports”
So, enlighten me, please.
D/P has no teleports…..
ok, i feel sorry for the thief community..i feel really sorry
D/P meta build with 6 in shadow arts has interrupts condition removal teleports stun breakers etc etc
How long you been playing this game?
Lol right? I honestly can’t tell if he is an elaborate troll or just a really bad thief.
Yeah, sure – I’d love to know where the teleports come from though.
And don’t come with “shadowstep”, please that’s one teleport.
Please tell me you don’t play thief lol.
because that’s just embarrassing..
Trying to justify how thieves can survive inside enemy zerg alone?
i see no problem here. not to mention he clearly got out played, he didn’t even realize he got revealed, all he did was SR and he didnt even manage to get in.
man, i guess blacktruth is right, it’s DEFINITELY A LOT stronger in team fights then in duel.
it’s just as useful as hammer and do so good with boon stripping team.
and it is probably the only weapon that can bait cooldowns, dodges next to rifle ( ask me nothing here please.
you should already be reckting so many kitten s in teamqs! it’s just misconception that made you think that mace is not stronk in teams, listen to the blacktruth because he only speaks the truth.
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Nah, mace is already a pretty strong dueling weapon.
there’s really no need in buffing it farther in dueling area.about the traits, both are way too good to merge imo.
if anything, i would more happy to see the merge of reflection and cull the weak.Simon, come on man.
You should know you don’t balance the game around something like dueling. The game was never built around 1v1 nor should it be, it’s a team game.
in that case, gs/ms build lacks in a lot of areas, like really a lot, to be in team match, lol
it’s just generally not a team build, at least i wouldnt recommend.
if really want mace, i would suggest mace sword lb carrion, gs/ms is just generally not for team in the most profound of it’s core…unless it gets some serious big changes in some way imo.
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I go away for a few months and come back to this kitten:
1) Warrior is supposed to be average at everything. Deal with it.
.
except the fact that warrior is not avergae at everything, but average at so little things he can do.
can he group stealth? skip? reflect projectils for team? give teamate protection?place waterfield? blind field?
nop, non of these he can do. i’m not even talking about things that he can do but insanely “average” at.he’s “average” at a very little few things hes already limited to do, except banner.
not everything, just not everything..if you want to talk about everything, it’s definitely not warrior you are talking about.kitten like this is the reason I quit the forums in the first place. Also the reason I came back, because arguing with stupidity is amusing.
Does your stealth/blind thief stack all the might/vuln? Does your reflect mesmer pile on banners that give huge stat buffs? Even engie can’t give fury. Warrior does all that kitten and still goes good DPS in the process, unlike your blindthief who’s puffing smoke instead of attacking like some college fratboy stoner every four seconds.
And if that still doesn’t float your boat, just delete your warrior and reroll, that’s what I did when they nerfed engies.
my stealth blind thief can also reflect projectils, safe rez any time, skip trash, smoke field, top DPS, strip protection and dancing dagger is amazing against fotm shaman
my engi can reflect projectils, group stealth for trash skip, stealth rez, smoke field, water field, fire field, strip protection.
sure mesmer might not be that good, but it can also reflect projectils, aoe stealth for rez and skip, and portal for skip, which are all fun and good.
what warrior does? dddddd drop the banna.
please, i have almost every class 80 even the ones i don’t have a few 80’d, i play them in PvP, so please, don’t try to act like i don’t know stuff and try to foul me over.
This ‘Jack/Master of all trades’ saying was burned and buried a long time ago in the history of MMOs. It should stay there, if you ask me.
The fact of the matter is that conquest dictates each team picks at least two bunkers/node fighters. Celestial Ele/War (Ele especially) is an utterly superior alternative to the previous builds which were pure bunker/support.
Clerics, Settlers, Soldiers, Sentinels, these defensive archetypes once had a purpose, such as Bunker Guardians, Eles, Tanky Rangers, Decap Engineer (good riddance), but now simply are replaced by Cele Eles/War across the board.
Bunkers are so dead right now. Cele Eles/Warriors have replaced every single one.
Engineer shares the same amulet, but does a roamer’s role and can’t compete for those 2 team slots for on-point fighters, currently 100% dominated by Cele Ele/War.
If Bunker Guardian/Warrior was brought back, and/or other support focused builds (Support Staff Ele, Support Engi) were brought up from Garbage tier, a team could have 2 pure bunkers/support and 3 roamers instead of 2 Cele off-bunkers and 3 roamers.
Is that better though, I’m not sure. What’s more fun to watch, 2 Cele Eles battling, or 2 Bunker res-bot Warriors, for example? I think the Cele Eles.. but what people really want is build diversity. Why should Cele Ele as a package be simply better than:
- Bunker Guardian, Virtues or Altruistic Healing.
- Bunker (Res-Bot) Warrior
- Bunker Engi (So far only Decap/Turrets have surfaced, ew)
- Bunker Beastmaster Ranger
- Support Staff Ele
- Support Spirit Ranger
^These are just the builds that have actually seen use in previous metas throughout the years. None have survived, there is only Cele Ele! (Cough, occasional Cele War is good). That’s a big lost opportunity, in terms of build diversity.
Roamers are not perfect, (Engi OP) but much more balanced than the Bunker/support options are right now.
I figure since we see pretty much next to zero dedicated support and dedicated bunkers in competitive games on NA (EU still reps some), that should raise some flags.
Here. Chaith summed it up 2 pages ago.
Celes are not OP. They are just the best at their role. If they were OP you’d have 5 of them on your team…
At the moment we have 2/3 roaming roles and 5 classes to fill that role. That is the problem.
I think ANET needs to move away from their defined class roles, because they are too limiting in a 5v5 conquest game.
They should be aiming for each class to have a dps/support/tank role. How else are you going to get 9 classes into 5 roles?
You do realise that best at their roles and kill off every single other builds also mean OP.
Cele ele is op as a point holder compare to every point holder out there.
and cele engi is just superior damage pressure then every same role build out there
and thief is just way better in terms of roaming around the map while mesmer is good alternative, it’s single mobility vs group mobility which is diversity inside a single role, but these are better then every other zerker roaming +1 fights builds out there.
and Magnetic Grasp needs 3/4 cast time for counter play.
but even so, it still can’t change the huge utility advantage.
having blink on certain map is just op for a point holder(tanky) build
blink spots op.
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Elemental attunement, definitely.
without talking about other boons it already offers.
5 seconds of protection for not only himself but every one around hin on a 10 seconds CD is ridic.
Again? That is not what everything means.
Unless it all fits into one build it means nothing. All the build that was posted for targeting offers is a lot off CC and average damage.
Stop trying to pretend players are using a mythical 6/6/6/6/6 build in PvP.
Im sorry, i thought we already have clarified multiple times it’s cele rifle build we are talking about here. tell me a thing which i listed in my previous comments which not include in the builds, or you just simply dissagree on what should be nerfed (which is agreed by every one else including engineers in this thread)
Or you are just simply being kitten over the word “everything”, then im sorry, i’ll change the word to “a lot of things” and lets move on. like i said it’s simple personal perspective, this conversation has no out come.
Ok guys, let’s just say Cele engi has too much of everything.
but in the end, we may only need to change one area just to bring it down from having too much of everything.False statements like this are part of the perception problem.
How do they have too much stability?
How do they have too much condition cleanse? (they have the least of all profession)
How do they have too much stealth?
How do they have too much might stacking?
None of those things are in the linked build the are complaining about
As pointed out before, the problem isn’t the skills themselves. It is the fact that too many of those skills either lack an animation for counter play avoidance, or lack a cast time for interrupt options.
Your right as well that IP is one of those aspects of the problem by lacking a counter play tell of any kind. The only problem with singling it out, is that plenty of traits across all profession offer passive damage or effect that others avoid because it might effect their profession negatively.
You are breaking things apart again..
we are talking of (having too much of everything) as a whole.
NOT being top in each and every individul areas.
if you understand what it means.
and tbh i have no intend to continue this pointless conversation, as in we already have an agreement in what should be nerfed.
which means this pointless conversation is pure personal perspective.
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Nah, mace is already a pretty strong dueling weapon.
there’s really no need in buffing it farther in dueling area.
about the traits, both are way too good to merge imo.
if anything, i would more happy to see the merge of reflection and cull the weak.
Yes, you should if you like it.
Imo warrior is just more fun then ranger lol.
but it’s personally taste.
Ok guys, let’s just say Cele engi has too much of everything.
but in the end, we may only need to change one area just to bring it down from having too much of everything. (which is what coglin saying, which means it comes to the same thing)
Like giving a cast time to overcharge i think we all agree.
Slick shoes should be look at,
and IMO gear block and net shot should have CD increase.
and IP should really have a visual icon probably.
(edited by Simon.3794)
While that is a lot of CC, CC is kind of the thing of engineers. That’s like faulting the thief for having too much stealth. If you want to say the CC is too hard to counter, that’s a different argument all together.
I would suggest we start by adding a cast time to overcharge then we will see.
not something like Point blank of ranger being 1/2 seconds, because it’s like as close as not have any cast time.
slick shoes should also be looked at somehow.
and imo Net shot should have higher CD
(edited by Simon.3794)
Is the problem really that it has so much CC? Slick Shoes is a little bit much, but warrior hammer has just as much CC. The difference is that Overcharged Shot is instant and all of the warrior skills have obvious animations. These difficult to counter skills need to be more counterable. The sustain on ele and the CC on engi are very difficult to counter because they’re extremely quick or instant.
IMO, the problem is not a specific area, but having too much of EVERYTHING
It’s like i can build to out heal a cele engi
i can build to out damage a cele engi
i can build to out condition damage a cele engi
but these builds are all bad compare to a cele engi.
because cele engis has too much of everything.
and cele engis definitely has too much damage, chaith and caed both said that it has good burst that is equal to a berserker engi. (not sure about now after might nerf)
So one/multiple areas has to be tune down.
i guess it will be CC here?
About CCs you are right, i can build hambow and have as much CC but can’t land a single one because of melee range telegraphed animation..
While engis have a lot of ways to actually land the damage, stealth to CC, immo (also low cast time) to overcharge, magna pull behind SoI, or just simply no cast time overcharge.
CC skills which are way too good should get an obvious cast time just like pin down did.
and another question that bugs me the most is that engi is like the only class out there that does not need a proper condition clear.
(edited by Simon.3794)
Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.
and? does your argument counter my argument of it has too much of everything?
you basically said there are simillar skills out there but it counters nothing to my argument.
What else build would have overcharge, grenades, nails, magna pull, turret explosion CC and been generally used everywhere in PvP?…
(edited by Simon.3794)
What CC uptime are you referring to? you avoid specifics there. What build would we be finding all of this in?
Link the build that you feel is problematic?
Overcharge alone is incredible CC uptime with no cast time.
in fact it probably has the highest CC up time in the game. (other then fear which is condition)
not even counting all the soft CCs from chill grenades, nails, immo or hard CCs like turret explosion and magna pull.
(edited by Simon.3794)
No, the difference is engi has too much of everything.
nails are incredible kitting skill.
grenades you can throw backwards
and have high CC uptime
while still having 16 seconds CD block
let’s not mention stealth etc.
ele has 3 cantrips for survival and 8 trait points in defensive lines
warrior has 3 shouts for healing and condition clean and 10 points in defensive lines
engi has 1(elixir) and a half (tool kit) and only 4 points in defensive line and they can spec the rest in to completely offensive. like why engis can be more then just viable every time without even the need to trait for proper condition clear. not to mention cele engi does damage like a zerker engi.
(edited by Simon.3794)
i think the resistance effect is too much compare to the general boon effect..
just feels like it’s not the same game.
thoughts?
WTH, why is my thread and heartless’ complete overview thread about how warrior is only average but effort less and the best class is elementalist are deleted
i don’t know why people want rifle, it’s like they forgot what is a thief and reason they pick this class..
Are you saying thief should only weild d/d and zerker gear with signets? Thief is a general term which assasin is in,as well as rogue,scout etc. Don’t limit yourself to other games, I am tired of the copy and paste of classes across mmos. Why would they give us traits,gear stats,sigils etc. available to all..?
im saying that people pick thief is because of flashy melee combat and fast mobility, if they wanted to pew pewpew safely 1200 range away they would be picking ranger or something long ago.
and D/D signets is meta, it will always be meta even thief get rifle. if you think people will stop using DD meta just because they get rifle, people would be already using P/P if that ever gonna happen. if you think ranged rifle will out damage the melee DD meta it’s not happening either, so i’m not sure about your argument..
(edited by Simon.3794)
either you choose warrior which you can play with no effort to be average and be a boring class for the rest of your life and still be average even when you get better.
or you get better and use classes with a bit more effort and be the best.
there’s no best at everything and no effort required class.
(edited by Simon.3794)
mes thief combo is strong and thief kill mes easy.
it will never be viable in any mod at all, unless devs made so it’s viable.
such wise words. “it won’t be viable unless it is”.
yes, it will never be viable because the meta is constant changing, and people change their utilize to match the meta.
but revenant can’t, so either dev retweak everything to make them viable and perfect fit or they will never.
which means there’s no balancing because of all the combinations, it’s either devs want them to be meta, or they are out.
i don’t know why people want rifle, it’s like they forgot what is a thief and reason they pick this class..