Those mesmer traits grant protection, not invulnerability. And yes, i know, why they are easier now – not because of their mechanics.
Warrior isn’t the most op class rith now, so even if he doesn’t need the knowledge against thief, he might need it against mesmer or ele (Actually i think, thief has an easier time than warrior against mesmer, at least at “pro level”).
The point of this thread was “hard to play classes should be stronger than easy classes”. I said, this won’t work, because stronger classes would be automatically easier.
Agree. For me it would be a mistake to aim for the ‘harder to play = ultimately better’. Once you are at master level of your profession it is no longer hard to do what you need to do. The only thing that should differ is how long it took you to get there.
Any profession will have difficulties vs some builds and contexts but also have it very easy vs other builds and contexts too. Balance should be about risk vs reward and rock/paper/scissor mentality. Any build that is ultimate because harder to master is inherently badly designed IMHO. It would only lead to all players eventually all playing that same thing.
Your edit was still bad. A thief has 2 weapons at a time not just one like ele. So short bow and something else was expected not just short bow or one dagger.
As for my assumption I must disagree. I said “I personally always seek what is more fun to play and it’s almost never what is easy” and that my point was “don’t assume all of them would make that choice”. I for one would not and I know I would not be alone.
So an ele has got 4 attunements and can heal himself with water, a thief can’t. an ele also has got invulnerability which a thief hasn’t.
Why? Because it would meant that, if we accept your opinion (which I certainly do not) of thieves and engi being the profession who would have the highest potential because of their highest skill floor, all pro players would invariably seek to play them because they ultimately lead to the best potential. Nothing in competition but thieves and engi? Really? That sux. I’m sorry but that is the mother of all bad ideas.
So you didn’t say that, I’m sorry.
Edit: Lets just agree to disagree, I hope those who are able to remember their own words and know wvw/pvp get my point.
And btw: There was some kind of balance before the june patch – the classes and weapon sets the hardest to play usually hit the hardest as well, with a few exceptions and without taking condi builds into account. Now nearly every class is face roll. That again isn’t directed to you just my final statement on this matter.
I don’t understand why you bring the fact ele has 4 attunements, can heal with water and has invul in the context of my reply. It changes nothing to what I said and I could point out that Thief can spam weapon skills as long as he got initiative and can stealth. Two things ele can’t do but really what has it to do with the topic or what was discussed?
As for admitting your mistake and agreeing to disagree I think it is the way to go. It’s ok to make mistakes and see things differently. No harm in that.
For your first point, how many players with 2 weapon slots do you know that uses only one? Your reply is as ridiculous as me saying I play my ele with a focus only.
Now for your other point, I did not assume nobody would go for what is easier. I know many will. I said not everyone think in these terms. If there is a flaw in my thinking about this it wasn’t what you say I said as opposed to what I actually said.
I already edited it, so I don’t really see your point, sorry.
No, you assumed that people would play what’s the most fun for them and for some that would be the easier option (= class), so make harder to play classes equally rewarding and a lot of players will go for the easier class – as seen with mesmer, for example – so your point that if you make harder to play classes more rewarding would lead to an imbalance is wrong in my opinion and I explained in now three posts why.Edit: Grammar
Your edit was still bad. A thief has 2 weapons at a time not just one like ele. So short bow and something else was expected not just short bow or one dagger.
As for my assumption I must disagree. I said “I personally always seek what is more fun to play and it’s almost never what is easy” and that my point was “don’t assume all of them would make that choice”. I for one would not and I know I would not be alone.
Really? Because I can tell you right here and now that no matter the thief I play they all have it infinitely easier than I do at solo roaming while on my zerk staff ele. On a cele d/d ele tho that is extremely different I agree. But the point remain that the context and build determine what is harder not the profession alone. There are contexts where the zerk staff will enjoy a far easier time than pretty much any thief but not when dueling or roaming for sure I can tell you that.
Yes, try to play thief with only dagger mainhand and compare that to staff ele.
Edit: Or maybe more accurate: SB thief vs Staff ele.My point is, don’t assume all of them would make that choice. Specially not if they desperately are the kind who want to prove they are the best… that ego is such a kitten… If the builds are all overall equivalent in potency, logic won’t be the factor to decide what is good or not based on a profession, which will bring diversity.
You assume they wouldn’t. My best friend in this game started out as a main thief and switched to guard because it’s easier – and he wasn’t bad by any means.
And you can’t change the mechanics of the classes- take a warrior, easy to play,no matter what build, harder to master, still he can allow himself a mistake against an equally skilled opponent, no matter the class and he doesn’t have to know all the classes’ mechanics in comparison to a thief.Again: My point was to show you the flaws in your thinking, I don’t have an opinion (yet) on the OP.
For your first point, how many players with 2 weapon slots do you know that uses only one? Your reply is as ridiculous as me saying I play my ele with a focus only.
Now for your other point, I did not assume nobody would go for what is easier. I know many will. I said not everyone think in these terms. If there is a flaw in my thinking about this it wasn’t what you say I said as opposed to what I actually said.
I also have all classes and in my opinion most of them are really easy to play, no matter the setup – if you chose only useless traits then it becomes harder, sure, but compare that to a thief with only useless traits, oh wait..
And no, my perception is that all classes but engi, thief and guard (because I don’t understand it at all) are easy to play. From what I see when facing these classes the perception stays the same. With the difference that guard looks pretty easy.
Really? Because I can tell you right here and now that no matter the thief I play they all have it infinitely easier than I do at solo roaming while on my zerk staff ele. On a cele d/d ele tho that is extremely different I agree. But the point remain that the context and build determine what is harder not the profession alone. There are contexts where the zerk staff will enjoy a far easier time than pretty much any thief but not when dueling or roaming for sure I can tell you that.
Hey, I quoted a psychologist who gives me a free analysis, isn’t that great?
That was basically your own argument from the different point of view, to show you the flaws – and yes a lot of people chose what is easier to play, even though they could chose the harder to play class (skill wise).
My point is, don’t assume all of them would make that choice. Specially not if they desperately are the kind who want to prove they are the best… that ego is such a kitten… If the builds are all overall equivalent in potency, logic won’t be the factor to decide what is good or not based on a profession, which will bring diversity.
Apart from the fact it makes no sense whatsoever to me to say a profession has a high or low skill floor in itself (a build yes, not a profession)
With that perception you’re wrong, there are classes which are easier to play, no matter what weapons you chose.
I do not agree it would be a good idea to clearly make a profession, regardless of how tricky it can be to master with it’s hardest builds, potentially inherently better.
I didn’t quote the rest of what you wrote but I refer to it:
If you make all classes equal at pro level, then again some classes wouldn’t be played, such as thief or engineer who are a lot harder to master than others.And how many really good players are there anyway, so would it make a difference when all of them chose to be an engi or thief?
Just a flaw in your reasoning, I don’t really have an opinion on that as I can see why lower skilled players might be afraid of both classes and maybe that isn’t right. The approach anet took though, to make both classes basically unviable isn’t right either.
From my experience with all professions, depending on the context you are speaking of, all professions have easy builds and harder ones. Sure, not all equally hard to master but the judgement about what is or not the most difficult is so dependent on context and players preferences of play and past habits that it really becomes a futile argument.
If all classes are equal at pro level than they would all be played because they would ultimately all be equally viable. Only the time required to reach that level would differ. If your argument is that players would always go for what is easier it says a lot about you I think. I personally always seek what is more fun to play and it’s almost never what is easy.
Some like to drive automatic transmission because there is less to think about while others prefer to do it manually because it give the an active driving experience. But in the end, they can both reach the same speed and get you where you want as fast.
TL;DR
Thief/engineer take the most skill to play, therefore they should have the potential to be dominant(See highest skill caps) over classes which require significantly less skill to be competitive at.
Apart from the fact it makes no sense whatsoever to me to say a profession has a high or low skill floor in itself (a build yes, not a profession) I do not agree it would be a good idea to clearly make a profession, regardless of how tricky it can be to master with it’s hardest builds, potentially inherently better.
Why? Because it would meant that, if we accept your opinion (which I certainly do not) of thieves and engi being the profession who would have the highest potential because of their highest skill floor, all pro players would invariably seek to play them because they ultimately lead to the best potential. Nothing in competition but thieves and engi? Really? That sux. I’m sorry but that is the mother of all bad ideas.
If you are anything like me you want to play more complex builds for the fun they provide, not because you want to feel legitimate to be OP and look down on ppl. I play all 8 professions and they all are max level fully geared but some of them I can’t play for long because I too often find them boring and too often irrelevant in too many contexts. Your reward is the fun you have to play something more exciting. The last thing this game need is what you suggest and which looks to me like an elitist validation. We already have way too many ego driven players anyway…
All profession should have the same overall potential but not all build should be as easy or difficult.
Again, the only real way to nerf d/d ele without touching other builds much is to target the one thing that is different: the weapon. Why staff or focus or scepter aren’t as good with the same amulet? There is where you need to look at. Scepter, staff and focus are far from broken so don’t lash out at what will also affect them.
Any changes made should ONLY seek to target the ONE build that is problematic: cele d/d. Touching arcana and water will more than likely affect more than just that build… they should target the weapon skills not the traits.
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
To be fair, these mesmers apparently often really think they are something awesome and that it is their superior skills that made you flee… It doesn’t help that it’s a troll wet dream come to life.
To be fair, most of the complainers also really think the spec has that much of an impact in who wins or loses the fight, and not just 40/60 impact.
But then, that’s much easier than having to admit you played badly. It’s the same with weak specs, easier to class your own spec as underdog and rationalize it that way.
As an example, the strongest way-OP-out-through-the-roof heroes in MOBAs often swim at 55%-60% winrate. Considering 50% as balanced, wow, that’s surely rocking everyone’ socks off, like, up to 10% of losses could have been avoided by balance. Totally only the spec’s fault someone lost. :P
Well, I’ll speak for myself here and say that I see a huge difference in difficulty and success when I play on my main with my usual zerk staff ele and when I play on my mesmer using PU. I’m the same player with thousands of hours on my main and maybe 80 hours on my mesmer in pvp but god is the difference obvious to me in the numbers of time I’m in real danger and how easy I can achieve a win. The skill floor is absurdly low for the PU mesmer and the build does make a significant difference in that since I’m after all the same guy and far more skilled at staff ele.
I have played this game since launch and I know that condi mesmers dont work too well in pves or massive zergs, but it’s just rediculous in 1v1 or small group fights. As a pu condi mesmer I have not yet lost to anybody, simply because no matter how much condi you remove (believe me I fought classes that were built to have a kitten ton of removal) but in the end they still lose (fighting them takes a long time but they have to focus all their attention in removing the conditions I apply, so they have no time to focus on dealing damage to me, even if they manage to deal some damage, my ether feast heals over half of my hp anyways, so they basically deal no dmg to me. Also I’m constantly kiting with staff 2 etc, if you try to catch me [I can apply alot of torment], if you try to attack [I apply alot of confusion]. Therefore I’m constantly punishing players for attacking or even moving…. How in the world can that be fair???? I stacked up to 15 stacks of confusion at one time that the enemy deals around 1.5k dmg to himself per melee attack………. Oh you want to heal yourself? NOPE! I run doom on each weapon set, good luck healing…. Pu mesmer can spam stealth, and punishes players for doing anything. In a 1v1 situation, I can never lose.). I run ether feast, disenchanter, null field all which removes conditions applied to me (Just try fighting me with condi build you will understand how every condition that you apply to me gets removed almost instantly) and strip enemy boons, they have absolutely no chance at winning against me using a condition mesmer
PS. TO ANYONE OF YOU CLAIMING THAT PU CONDI MESMERS ARE NOT OP ETC. FIGHT ME!!! I will beat everyone of you. PU condi is so faceroll i wont even have to try.
This whole mentality and play style is why people hate condi mesmers, this is why it only really works i wvw where you have virtually endless space to kitten around.
But i could beat you easily on any class. Because in wvw, you beat condi mesmers by simply walking away (while smiling at the screen for having robbed that idiot of his daily dose of egotrip).
To be fair, these mesmers apparently often really think they are something awesome and that it is their superior skills that made you flee… It doesn’t help that it’s a troll wet dream come to life.
You say you are curious but never say about what? How can I help you? I play on SoR and am currently facing BP and SF… TONS of mesmers. We do have our fair share ourselves. IDK what to say but to me, as well as many people apparently, there is unarguably a very significant increase in the profession visibility on the field no matter the server we have faced.
I do not see PU “occasionally”. It’s, apparently, near mandatory now. Almost a bad running gag actually. People seem to be soooooooo afraid to roam without their stealth it’s ridiculous. I assume my kamikaze roaming style with my zerk staff ele but if I always felt alien before while roaming alone now the feeling is overwhelming when invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Yeah I’m ill at the moment so that slipped by, will edit it in.
For me I see PU on mesmers generally because of thieves. As I’ve said many times, Mesmer has very poor swiftness so escaping a thief without stealth won’t happen and 3-4s won’t cut it. You can’t outrun the things and you couldn’t out stealth them either. Roaming as a power Mesmer pre patch was painful. It was possible but you could be easily killed by the many, many thieves out there and they didn’t even need to be skilled to do it.
That’s without mentioning the necessity of being able to escape from a zerg or a bunch of people from the other server coming to outnumber you. Again, without traveler runes there is no way I’m escaping without stealth of a decent duration.
You can’t say mesmer stealth is too much without also saying thief stealth is too much but that’s been there for 3 years solid. Additionally it would be incredibly hard to change it. Please do try roaming as a mesmer without PU and see how “easy” it is without support.
I guess the increase in PU condition mesmer is an NA or upper EU thing as I don’t see it often in any of the servers we fight, but then as I said, those players tend to have a very bad time with the corpse jumping and laughing. Finally, you really need to put down the zerk staff ele, we’ve been over this in the last nerf PU thread, it just isn’t viable atm, seen zerk or close to zerk DD ele with lightening rod be effective though.
Then giving mesmer swiftest buff might have been way better is what I would tell you. Adding more of something broken is always a bad decision. But to be fair, even before the patch, I could pretty much escape all I ever needed to escape as a mesmer. I never needed so much stealth on demand for that.
Beside, many of you tell people complaining to stop expecting to be able to tackle all other builds yet having trouble with thieves seem to be the main argument you often have. Why not simply accept that thieve have the upper hand then? It’s not like mesmers don’t have a lot of upper hands over the rest no?
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
This is simply not true.
I am mostly a WvWvW, playing on Desolation, EU rank 1 server. Roaming matters to score at least as much as blobbing does. You can deny enemy its supplies by sniping the dolyaks, upgrade camps (effectively draining them to close to zero supplies before larger enemy group flips them back), place supply traps, contest enemy keeps or even try to capture them on your own. I play like that pretty much every day and several people on my server have called me “MVP” = Most Valuable Player on the map.
Several times I have been on map where I solo flipped every tower and camp which our side owns. You do the flipping 2-3 minutes before the tick and you hold it for the tick.
You can also flip a keep with just 2 players.And this has happened during busy prime time where there can be roughly up to 70-80 enemy players on each enemy side (a total of 140-160 enemies on the same map). Our side might have a zerg of their own, but they are doing gvg or having open field fights. Nevertheless it is roaming guys who matter the most when it comes to score.
Back to topic:
PU mesmers need a change. They have too much survivability and escapes compared to the amount of dps they can dish out. Either take shave off DPS or the reduce amount of stealth and increase the cooldown of blink.I have often been roaming for 1 h and encounter almost solely just enemy mesmers. If almost the entire roaming player population is using just one profession, it tells that the balance is a bad joke and Arenanet should do something about it.
Playing PU mesmer doesn’t require much any skill. It is a very forgiving build, which can easily handle 2-4 enemy players alone, unless they are built to take down mesmers.
You seem like an experienced person. If you think that you will encounter a certain class in roaming, why don’t you do something crazy and come up with a build that makes it easy to beat that class? If you truly want to stay and fight that condi PU cancer, then at least be prepared. Otherwise what are you complaining about? That your average roaming build cannot hold against this rubbish troll build for troll people?
Condi PU is basically annoying and nothing else. But so are most other roaming builds because a good roaming build has to be able to sustain itself, win fights where it has a chance to win and escape from fights it cannot win. Otherwise it’s not a roaming build.
The complaint is legit and not restricted to roaming as has been said bazillions of times though. But even if we do stay with roaming, the presence of these obviously overpowered troll builds in this context is a problem that could rather easily be fixed without crashing the house down on the culprits.
I get that ANET doesn’t balance around wvw bla-bla. However, there are limits to this line of thinking (let’s be honest here it’s a coward and convenient argument anyway). If mesmers auto-attacks were able to level SMC it would have no impact on pvp gaming and devastating one in wvw and we should just shrug? I’m sorry but ANET is expected to keep a minimum of balance in all game content. The “it’s not suppose to be fair” has limit too. I accept these imbalances as long as they aren’t ridiculous but past some point I expect something being done.
The good ole “risk vs reward” should be how things are balanced. You want to have no risk? Don’t expect a super high reward. Anything that strive to go away from that paradigm is bad to me. And telling me that profession X also can do Y is a ridiculous argument to give me here. It is a logical fallacy.
…invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Now see, this complaint has no meaning.
How often do you not bail in front of packs of anything? Grouping up is kind of the name of the game, yah?Also, mesmers by their very nature (worse for condi mes) are at a disadvantage in more than a 3v3. If anything, grouping up into multi-mesmer groups is making this less of a problem, as a group of 4+ ele/guard/warr would be more effective anyway.
You are supposed to get the idea there are lots of them (mesmers) now and understand that as hard as it was to solo roam with what I like to it’s much worse now. The solo roaming rant is not mesmer oriented btw…
So you’re solo roaming on a zerker staff ele and complaining that you’re getting killed by packs of enemy players? Are you actually serious right now? Zerker staff ele gets massacred 1v1 vs anything competent, let alone most roaming builds, let alone actual groups…
Every time without fail there will be someone invariably building a straw man… If you actually cared to read the thread I did say I assume my Kamikaze build while roaming. Solo roaming on my staff ele is a very good training and challenge that I had no problem doing before with great joy (I still do and it is still fun more often than not).
However, since the patch it is more and more of a pain and I’m at a really good spot to witness the changes that happened… As for my last comment, again, it was merely to clarify what I meant as opposed to what ppl understood (or wanted to understood). I even say the roaming rant is not mesmer related. It was merely a rant about an added layer of difficulty resulting of solo roaming being next to extinct. So now not only the game balance is worst than ever but if you solo roam you have to multiply that by the number of players you encounter.
…invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Now see, this complaint has no meaning.
How often do you not bail in front of packs of anything? Grouping up is kind of the name of the game, yah?Also, mesmers by their very nature (worse for condi mes) are at a disadvantage in more than a 3v3. If anything, grouping up into multi-mesmer groups is making this less of a problem, as a group of 4+ ele/guard/warr would be more effective anyway.
You are supposed to get the idea there are lots of them (mesmers) now and understand that as hard as it was to solo roam with what I like to it’s much worse now. The solo roaming rant is not mesmer oriented btw…
I won’t enter into a possibly endless argument with you about that however can we agree then might have been a tad too far with the stealth boost? Couldn’t it have been something else they gave the mesmer instead of so much stealth? It was a very poor choice IMHO to amplify something already not too great in that game.
As long as they’re not willing to take away Thieves permastealth, increasing Mesmer stealth to not-perma is never going to unbalance anything more than it already is.
Thieves perma stealth was always kitten to this game. Perma stealth should never be possible alone period.
Just curious about people claiming they’re seeing these mesmers all the time in WvW. I’m mid silver EU and while I do see them, we see more SD, DP thieves, trapper thieves, rangers and power shatter mesmers. Sure we occasionally see PU condi roamers but generally they get ganked, corpse jumped and laugh spammed hard. They’re certainly not that prevalent.
Doesn’t even need more than 2 of you to blow them up. Caught one sitting there in the block animation on sceptre and we both had enough time to do the laugh emote. Then we murdered him for having the audacity to think he would stand a chance on that build. Dodge the mirror images and he was powerless as we killed all the clones. Literally he couldn’t do a thing except try to run.
You say you are curious but never say about what? How can I help you? I play on SoR and am currently facing BP and SF… TONS of mesmers. We do have our fair share ourselves. IDK what to say but to me, as well as many people apparently, there is unarguably a very significant increase in the profession visibility on the field no matter the server we have faced.
I do not see PU “occasionally”. It’s, apparently, near mandatory now. Almost a bad running gag actually. People seem to be soooooooo afraid to roam without their stealth it’s ridiculous. I assume my kamikaze roaming style with my zerk staff ele but if I always felt alien before while roaming alone now the feeling is overwhelming when invariably forced to bail in front of pacts of mesmers and thieves. As if they weren’t already super advantaged alone. No, they also have to band together… very sad and annoying.
Just curious about people claiming they’re seeing these mesmers all the time in WvW. I’m mid silver EU and while I do see them, we see more SD, DP thieves, trapper thieves, rangers and power shatter mesmers. Sure we occasionally see PU condi roamers but generally they get ganked, corpse jumped and laugh spammed hard. They’re certainly not that prevalent.
Doesn’t even need more than 2 of you to blow them up. Caught one sitting there in the block animation on sceptre and we both had enough time to do the laugh emote. Then we murdered him for having the audacity to think he would stand a chance on that build. Dodge the mirror images and he was powerless as we killed all the clones. Literally he couldn’t do a thing except try to run.
I won’t enter into a possibly endless argument with you about that however can we agree then might have been a tad too far with the stealth boost? Couldn’t it have been something else they gave the mesmer instead of so much stealth? It was a very poor choice IMHO to amplify something already not too great in that game.
So I’m supposed to leave the mesmer alone inside smc or a keep?
No, I can’t. It mean I have to bring lots of ppl to flush him out and take quite some time to do it if the mesmer is even not half bad.
You completely ignored where I said that staying in keeps is gonna mark you on the minimap. That’s going to make it extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, for mesmers to stay in a keep long enough to retake it.
So this is going to be a non-issue, which means nerfing mesmer stealth for this reason is meaningless.Lastly, I agree that not every build should be able to take on every other build…but that is pretty much what the problem of the mesmer in wvw is right now… they can do exactly what you say none should.
He wasn’t saying a “should”, you were. He was suggesting that it’s not important that any particular build be beatable in 1v1 WvW roaming.
For example, every MOBA has a few characters who are supreme duelists. Trying to fight a duelist alone in League of Legends is probably going to get you killed. This isn’t considered a bad thing, it’s considered a feature of that class over others. The principle that a dire or rabid condi mesmer can beat any other class 1v1 isn’t inherently bad, only if its effects are. But the effect of condi mes being unbeatable (if this were even actually true) is that you need to bring a friend when roaming WvW (which seems to have been Anet’s intention in the first place), and that your camps aren’t always safe when the zerg is far away. Since that’s extremely low-impact in terms of WvW objectives, it’s not important that Anet deal with it anytime soon.
For your first point I’ll simply say that I witness on a daily basis from our side and our enemy’s side what you say is near impossible. It simply not THAT hard for a mesmer to endure long enough to bring a zerg inside a keep unless you deploy what needs to be deployed.
As for your second point, I NEVER said or implied that any build are undefeatable. I said mesmer has access to builds that can defeat all others in wvw atm. Having the ability to 1vx is, IMO, inherently bad in a pvp setting. Being strong is fine but there is a line that I’m sure was crossed with the update that put the mesmer in WvW on the “too strong” side of it. I see it every day, I play it and i fight it, it IS too good atm in that setting. It is no wonder there is a plague of it now. The same is true of cele D/D ele in pvp.
As for PU, I still scratch my head trying to understand why they felt an already very powerful and viable trait was in need of such a massive buff… Specially knowing the problem stealth represent in at least one of the game mode.
IKR………. I fought this ranger that took every possible condi removing trait and utility and sigils and rune etc. He said he will beat me easy, but he lost every time :P. Fighting that ranger took a long time due to condi removal, but his skills has cooldown but my condition applying skills has such low cool down that soon enough I apply too much condition for him to remove.
These examples all assume that your opponent will be foolish enough to stand and fight in a prolonged, losing battle. As people have said over and over again, walk away. It’s WvW, you don’t need to worry about holding a point, just leave. Outrunning a Condi mesmer is just not that hard.
Every build shouldn’t be capable of stomping every other build, I don’t know why people think that they should. So you can’t win a 1v1 with a Condi mesmer; walk away, do something else, or come back with friends. Job done.
So I’m supposed to leave the mesmer alone inside smc or a keep? No, I can’t. It mean I have to bring lots of ppl to flush him out and take quite some time to do it if the mesmer is even not half bad.
Like said previously, if it was merely in roaming it wouldn’t be THAT bad. I mean it really sux to see so many mesmers in wvw making roaming a living hell but to have them be a nightmare each time you flip an objective is extremely annoying and impactful on the game.
Lastly, I agree that not every build should be able to take on every other build…but that is pretty much what the problem of the mesmer in wvw is right now… they can do exactly what you say none should.
I have played this game since launch and I know that condi mesmers dont work too well in pves or massive zergs, but it’s just rediculous in 1v1 or small group fights. As a pu condi mesmer I have not yet lost to anybody, simply because no matter how much condi you remove (believe me I fought classes that were built to have a kitten ton of removal) but in the end they still lose (fighting them takes a long time but they have to focus all their attention in removing the my conditions that they deal no dmg to me). I run ether feast, disenchanter, null field all which removes conditions applied to me and strip enemy boons, they have absolutely no chance at winning against me using a condition mesmer
I know. I’m a living condi-washing machine and there is simply no way I can hope to wash it all and if I don’t…
I agree with both of you, however, mesmer is right now not only ubber strong but comes with the added problem of portals that all other professions don’t have… It’s huge and extraordinarily annoying and time and resource consuming to fight and you don’t really have the option to just not care. It’s the mix of several key things that in that context makes a genuine problem.
Ok, now back to the original post:
Every noob and his dad is playing them now in wvw especially cause dire pu mesmers are the easiest thing to play and get easy kills.
That dear sir is a scrub thinking – http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub . Yes, the condi mesmer is efficient build, but mainly because so many players run full zerker without condi cleanse. Is it easy? That depends what you mean – the only thing that is really easy in this build is to run away from bad fight – getting a kill is not, because it has SO MUCH LOWER burst than normal power builds (not mentioning that condi cleanse like MoR completely wrecks it). Power necro’s 90% of damage comes from #1 button – slash with dagger till full bar, then Death Shroud and again #1 (yes, I’m oversimplifying here but not by much) yet I don’t see people calling them “faceroll noob easy builds”.
Adapt to the game dear sir and stop complaining.
While what you say is true my main problem with the mesmer as is in wvw is the eternal risk vs reward that is stupidly out of wack. Yes there are some pretty simple and efficient build to run out there but most of them are, IMHO, more balanced in WvW when we tackle the question from a risk/reward angle. If your professions has it super easy to escape any bad situations you inherently don’t risk much mounting any attacks. Specially when invisible while mounting them and teleporting around with blink (sometimes double blinks) and portals. The necro in your example is very deadly but for all his might he will have to face the music if he mess-up. A mesmer as is in wvw will never face the consequences of his mistakes unless he realllllllllly kitten-up baaaad. Yet, the reward he can easily reap is very real and brutal.
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable…
I think your bullkitten story is the evidence Anet needs to nerf Mesmer some more. You should email them your findings immediately.
And if you have any arbitrary bones to pick any other classes, include those in your report too.
In the same way I want d/d cele ele to get some nerf, as opposed to ele period, I don’t suggest a massive class nerf for mesmer but for some traits that do put them in a too good spot in wvw. PU and the pledge being some examples.
I understand your frustration. But it’s been said before, and it will be said again: The game isn’t (can’t be) balanced around WvW roaming. It just won’t work.
Also, (as has been said before), roaming is a weird kind of beast. It basically requires a class that can 1vX multiple enemies, and can avoid/escape groups or enemies that you can’t face down. There are probably 3 or 4 builds right now that can handle that effectively. Is PU Condi the near the top? Yeah, probably.
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
Basically, I think it’s just not a high-priority problem for ANet. And it shouldn’t be.
EDIT: Sniped by Fay, with 1/10th of the words. And I’m ok with that.
To be fair, as has been said many times, it is far more than just roaming. Reducing the legitimacy of ppl being POed at mesmers in wvw to roaming atm is dishonest. Stealth and portals on one so hard to catch person is a genuine problem that siphon at lot of fun out of wvw.
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable… but still… something is definitely wrong.
You start of saying your not that great yet you face 20 plus people not using pu. You my friend are the greatest Mesmer that lives. Or maybe it’s hard to factor in opponent skill hence the raging.
I meant that I could nearly always escape even group that big that really wanted my head on a plate. If you play without bravado it’s hella hard to die as a mesmer… unless you loose your cool. That I can manage so well being far, FAR less skilled in that profession says a lot to me… I die a lot more on my main despite the ridiculously bigger time invested in it.
The mesmer is a great profession both mechanically and conceptually. That being said they are better, too good in some instance, outside of pve. I say give it time and you might like it.
I understand your frustration. But it’s been said before, and it will be said again: The game isn’t (can’t be) balanced around WvW roaming. It just won’t work.
Also, (as has been said before), roaming is a weird kind of beast. It basically requires a class that can 1vX multiple enemies, and can avoid/escape groups or enemies that you can’t face down. There are probably 3 or 4 builds right now that can handle that effectively. Is PU Condi the near the top? Yeah, probably.
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
Basically, I think it’s just not a high-priority problem for ANet. And it shouldn’t be.
EDIT: Sniped by Fay, with 1/10th of the words. And I’m ok with that.
To be fair, as has been said many times, it is far more than just roaming. Reducing the legitimacy of ppl being POed at mesmers in wvw to roaming atm is dishonest. Stealth and portals on one so hard to catch person is a genuine problem that siphon at lot of fun out of wvw.
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable… but still… something is definitely wrong.
The “Conjurer” might be a nice elite line to develop in the future that could address this… hopefully…
Elementalist doesn’t need anything added . If anything , nerf the crap out of them , they have enough power already. Other professions have been neglected, far to long and need tweaking more .
Nerf Ele and spread the love to other more needed professions . Maybe that’s putting it bluntly but oh well, ele’s have plenty of power as is. better yet , take them back to the drawing board and start over .
Nonononononono. Ele is not in need of a nerf. ONE of it’s build is. Let’s not scrap an entirely viable profession because of ONE build.
This all feels like deja-vu to me back when I was in T2 the capital of GvG…
I had a question about this trait. I was running with it on my Staff ele in wvw, and was trying to figure out how much damage I was doing with it.
Except it didn’t seem to trigger that often, or not every instance of it is shown in the combat log.
Correct me if i’m running, but Static Field, Unsteady Ground and Gust should all trigger this when you hit people right? So If i put Static Field in an enemy zerg, and 3 people get caught in it, it should trigger 3 times. Right?
Is there an ICD that I don’t know about?
I use that trait all the time with staff and it does pretty decent damage. Specially if it crit and you are on an offensive build.
It should trigger on all the skills you mentioned each time for each person but I did witness some anomalies were it didn’t when it should have. Is it because there is an unknown ICD? IDK.
EDIT: Also, it obviously won’t trigger if someone has stability on…
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
Off-topic: your username is hilarious.
You are indeed quite the talker :p
:)
Sure, but it is not always possible and like it or not, PPT is more legit than what we like. I do prefer fights but there is no way you can look at a conquest game mode and pretend you are as legit in the way you play if you don’t capture kitten.
Beside, I hope you roam because you like it, not because you feel force to do so. I hate players who play the diva and expect to have others cut them some slack because of what they would do anyway… If you don’t like roaming then just don’t. Same goes for tagging etc. Don’t play the diva….
I love roaming. But have some respect for people who don’t mindlessly blob, do the grunt work nobody else does, because they’re the reason you keep your precious ppt.
I hate players that expect everything done for them, and don’t offer respect for the work done, then scream and rage when it’s not being done anymore and the entire map is paper.If they stop doing it, you will have to. Or let things fall over and over and wonder why.
Believe me I do have tons of respect for them. I myself do that among many other things and I feel you.
This game has too many conquest mode and not enough elimination mode. This is why I’m baffled when I get courtyard in pvp and see ppl whining about the map. I’m like, WTF is your problem? This is the ONLY elimination map and it’s too much!!? Gah!
When I duel I accept that I’m a tolerated phenomenon, not the legit one.
Who dictates what is legit? You?
It is the same thing in pvp when you have players who only fight outside of caps. You sure can do it, but kitten your team will rightfully hate you. Same goes for GvG that I also participate in. Having no other places to do your activities is no excuses.
Scroll up in this thread for why I don’t use OS.
Honestly you don’t need a reason to not use OS. OS is not for roaming, it’s for premeditated duels and GvGs. What is fun about roaming in WvW, as opposed to, say, SPvP or OS, is that the fights are spontaneous and organic. It’s the same reason why people play PvP servers in other MMOs. Sometimes duels happen, and it’s toxic behavior to not allow players to enjoy duels that have no affect on their server’s performance at all.
Well what I think these folks who are saying “if it’s red it’s dead” don’t understand is that the bulk of these duellers/roamers are your server’s scouts who do all the grunt work others won’t do. If you continue to tick them off by not being respectful of alternative gameplay, a tiny bit of a break from the crap jobs they do, you’ll find your towers/keeps are not upgraded, siege is not built or refreshed, and then the enemy will just swoop in and take your stuff with no resistance.
Do all you like to do as long as it doesn’t come at the cost of other game play experience.
That cuts both ways. If it’s not affecting your gameplay, leave them alone.
Sure, but it is not always possible and like it or not, PPT is more legit than what we like. I do prefer fights but there is no way you can look at a conquest game mode and pretend you are as legit in the way you play if you don’t capture kitten.
Beside, I hope you roam because you like it, not because you feel force to do so. I hate players who play the diva and expect to have others cut them some slack because of what they would do anyway… If you don’t like roaming then just don’t. Same goes for tagging etc. Don’t play the diva….
All I say is Server > Individual in that game mode.
Actually, no. Roamers and especially duelers play for the fights, not for points or their server. A lot of them (me included) already switched servers a few time, so server pride has been thrown out of the window quite some time ago and has been replaced by pride for your guild and individual other guys you like fighting with.
Those people i know can hold a 1v1 and would rather do it than having me interrupt and ruin a potentially good fight.
I’m not asking for ppl opinion. I state a fact. WvW is a SERVER game mode. SERVER.
SERVER imply more than one individual. It is not because you, as well as many other players, have cast aside your server pride that all have done the same. And it ultimately doesn’t change the fact your team is SERVER based anyway and playing in a conquest mode game.
I don’t care one bit if you come to our team because you like it or because you were bored. You are expected to help your server if you decided to come on the battlefield. Can you decide to do otherwise? Sure. But, just like players fighting off caps in pvp just because they can and they want, you will rightfully be remembered as a nuisance.
Several of you seemingly want others to respect your way of life but don’t give a crap about PPTers way of life… you shoot yourself in the foot big time when you do this.
On one side I don’t want to interrupt a duel, on the other I don’t want to let my team down. This is a server game therefore the team is more legitimate than the duel. A lone player can cap anything is what matters. Killing him equal removing that threat. Very basic logic.
lol that’s a load.
IF the lone player was capping a camp, then I’d say, yes, kill him.
But if he’s just off to the side, playing with another player, then killing him does nothing for your server. Zero. Zilch.
You’re just trying to justify bad sportsmanship. lol.
What part of “having doubts about what is going on” is so hard to grasp for you? If you are convinced the guy won’t bother PPT and only wants to duel then by all mean let him be. You have doubts? Kill it with prejudice! You can’t possibly argue against that in good faith.
I seldom bothers known duelers unless they start to get bored and troll the kitten out of our new players. This behavior, btw, doesn’t help duelers one bit. Just saying… Honor doesn’t go far on kittenty trollish wings…
Beside, I know PLENTY of duelers who will cap a camp after they are done. They aren’t harmless at all from the PPT perspective. In fact, the poor sportsmanship from the PPT side is what many duelers do. I don’t need to justify my stance. It is self justifying in a game which inherent goal are points per tick.
So for the nth times, if having your duels interrupted kitten you, GTFO of busy spaces. It’s not hard to understand. When I duel I accept that I’m a tolerated phenomenon, not the legit one. It is the same thing in pvp when you have players who only fight outside of caps. You sure can do it, but kitten your team will rightfully hate you. Same goes for GvG that I also participate in. Having no other places to do your activities is no excuses. Do all you like to do as long as it doesn’t come at the cost of other game play experience.
I try to respect duels as much as possible, I duel myself, but must admit too many ppl duel in very bad spot (myself included).
Not all 1v1 are ‘legit’ duels and asking your team mate if it’s a duel when he fight for his life usually won’t get any answer anyway since he is kinda real busy atm. And, sadly, it did happened too often that I let a comrade in need be killed because I thought it was a duel and it was not.
My advice to duelers: find better spot than camps or SMC vicinity.
My advice to all: If you have any doubts about what is happening kill everything red because your team mate might be in need of assistance and you justify your inaction with dubious ‘honor’ reasoning. There is nothing honorable about letting someone in need die when you could have helped anyway… If he complain that he didn’t need help after, refer to advice to duelers…
Personally my ‘when in doubt’ reaction is, if you don’t know if it’s a duel or not I don’t interfere in an equal numbered fight. If you server mate wanted help and they die – oh well? When you die you don’t lose anything I can just rez them after, no harm done. But if he didn’t want help then you’ve gone and ruined a potentially very fun fight and if your server mate wants another he might have to go looking for that enemy all over again.
Except he did loose his stacks (guard or otherwise), possibly his trust in you, as well as time running back in the event you die realizing your mistake now that the attacker has turned to you having been spared a 2 v 1. Not even talking about possibly loosing an objective because you decided to let things happen… This is a team game and even solo roaming is a team contribution no matter what motivate you playing in the first place.
Have fun but not at other’s expense otherwise don’t be surprise if others don’t care about your kind fun… Many duelers don’t seem to realize that the way they duel and were they do it is probably what causes the most harm to all other duelers in the end.
Personally I have enough confidence in my own abilities that I won’t lose a 1v1 especially just after the enemy was in a fight. If we’re standing in a camp, what I’ll normally do is wait for the fight to finish while standing inside the capture circle and let the enemy heal up and engage me. If he wins two 1v1s in a row despite me being confident in my abilities I see the camp as his reward. Towers and keeps are a different story.
If my team mate gets angry at me for not jumping on the opportunity to outnumber the opponent I no longer care for his opinion because I see him as a coward.
Lavra covered the rest of the points.
Having confidence in yourself is extremely different than the end result. We all make mistakes and there is always someone better than you are or better suited to defeat what you play.
If he wants help he could, for example, kite into you. A dueler won’t do this since he tries to stay away from other people as much as possible.
Except he did loose his stacks (guard or otherwise)
Guard stacks are going to be removed, soon and sigil stacks – who cares. If you really want them, go fight some PvE mobs at spawn. Duelers rarely use them since those sigils would be useless in OS, anyway.
Not even talking about possibly loosing an objective because you decided to let things happen…
Ehh…okay. By now you must have realized, that winning or losing a matchup doesn’t matter at all. PPT has been cool for the first few months after release, but by now it’s meaningless except for maybe during WvW seasons.
It can help diminish doubts but in the end a decision has to be made and my suggestion is that if you still harbor doubts kill the red ppl.
Ultimately, if a team mate interrupt a duel obviously seeking to help you don’t blame him. Blame yourself.
I try to respect duels as much as possible, I duel myself, but must admit too many ppl duel in very bad spot (myself included).
Not all 1v1 are ‘legit’ duels and asking your team mate if it’s a duel when he fight for his life usually won’t get any answer anyway since he is kinda real busy atm. And, sadly, it did happened too often that I let a comrade in need be killed because I thought it was a duel and it was not.
My advice to duelers: find better spot than camps or SMC vicinity.
My advice to all: If you have any doubts about what is happening kill everything red because your team mate might be in need of assistance and you justify your inaction with dubious ‘honor’ reasoning. There is nothing honorable about letting someone in need die when you could have helped anyway… If he complain that he didn’t need help after, refer to advice to duelers…
Personally my ‘when in doubt’ reaction is, if you don’t know if it’s a duel or not I don’t interfere in an equal numbered fight. If you server mate wanted help and they die – oh well? When you die you don’t lose anything I can just rez them after, no harm done. But if he didn’t want help then you’ve gone and ruined a potentially very fun fight and if your server mate wants another he might have to go looking for that enemy all over again.
Except he did loose his stacks (guard or otherwise), possibly his trust in you, as well as time running back in the event you die realizing your mistake now that the attacker has turned to you having been spared a 2 v 1. Not even talking about possibly loosing an objective because you decided to let things happen… This is a team game and even solo roaming is a team contribution no matter what motivate you playing in the first place.
Have fun but not at other’s expense otherwise don’t be surprise if others don’t care about your kind fun… Many duelers don’t seem to realize that the way they duel and were they do it is probably what causes the most harm to all other duelers in the end.
I try to respect duels as much as possible, I duel myself, but must admit too many ppl duel in very bad spot (myself included).
Not all 1v1 are ‘legit’ duels and asking your team mate if it’s a duel when he fight for his life usually won’t get any answer anyway since he is kinda real busy atm. And, sadly, it did happened too often that I let a comrade in need be killed because I thought it was a duel and it was not.
My advice to duelers: find better spot than camps or SMC vicinity.
My advice to all: If you have any doubts about what is happening kill everything red because your team mate might be in need of assistance and you justify your inaction with dubious ‘honor’ reasoning. There is nothing honorable about letting someone in need die when you could have helped anyway… If he complain that he didn’t need help after, refer to advice to duelers…
Please have a look at the latest patch, I’m losing blueprints before deploying them in the place, ex: use it and equip in your hand than move around a bit, just few steps.
I lost some superior treb and a superior ram, didnt happen with normal rams, normal acs, superior acs.
PS: for Iost I mean they re not in the inventory, they’re not on the ground, they re just lost.(disappeared)
Happened to me too.
That’s why I have a stack of Stealth Disruptor Traps.
If I see one coming I just run off a little bit, drop one, then kite them through it and they’re easy game after that. The hatemail just makes it even better.
Hate mail for resorting to the only counter available? Wow…
Dont come to sor, theres only freaks and weirdos here…
Yup! And we like it that way… :P
Easiest way to get a mesmer is use another mesmer to moa him. A good mesmer will also know all the hiding spots to check.
Or count to 60 and that’s when all mesmer stealth skills time out.
It’s not impossible, and I actually cheer on map when we encounter a good mesmer — there’s a massive difference between the ones that spam skills and actually know their class. I’m not sure it’s fair to penalize someone who’s honed and learned his craft though? I laud it.
But they still die in our searches, lol.
P.S. you still didn’t say your server. The offer stands though if you’re in EU.
Oh, yeah, sorry. I’m or SoR.
I really don’t even begin to see how game mode even matters when talking gem purchase. No matter if I play pve, pvp or wvw purchasing a skin, more space, conveniences or what else is relevant and possibly interresting. What is it with this myth that WvW is not worth investing in because it doesn’t sell gems?
This is so true. There are WvW booster, etc. that can be used. Buying wrenches and food, etc.
It is more than just the boosters and the food. It is as if some ppl believe that it is only desirable to buy more storage or loot space or skins when you play pve.
I mostly play wvw and I’ve bought my fair share on the TP. My storage and bag space is maxed and I’ve got quite a few skins and bought quite a few BL keys over the years when the prices were friendlier.
Just look around you in WvW. It is a parade of people showing their skins. Where do you think these people get these fancy hats and quaggan backpacks?
Don’t know what to tell you. We don’t have these problems.
What server are you on. If we are matched, be glad to play hide to help train.
Most of the time a few of us will get the mesmers relatively easily. The problem arise when you inevitably have to deal with several good mesmers who know the map and their trade. Between the abundant and long stealth, invul, the 24 sec 1200 range blink, the blind and aegis it can be extremely frustrating to finish some of these pests.
That being said, it is not the mesmer in itself that is the problem IMHO but stealth as a whole in WvW. I still didn’t figure why, oh why, they felt it was a good idea to increase stealth presence instead of giving something else to compensate.
Let’s be honest here, how many WvW players treat WvW as a PvP zone?
I do. It is players vs players unless for you the guys that opposed you are AI opponents only which is FAR from my experience. That would say a lot about your play style inside WvW…
I am a mesmer.
I enjoy chasing down the the opposition in keep etc.
I disagree it is a major problem in WvW.
The big groups move on and don’t check.
Because they can’t be bothered – not a balance issue.
I lost count of how many times 20+ ppl had to take more than 15 min to finally get mesmers out of a keep or SM and many involved were definitely not idiots or bad players. It’s simply too easy for a good mesmer to escape with the tool he has and it is annoying as kitten.
Well players leave game because they can’t l2p. They just smash their keyboard, blame balance and rage quit.
yeah thats the ONLY reason players leave a game…..riiiiigght.
Well Junk as also a bit of truth there..
It is like, play clever use what Anet made strong or super effective or leave, game not design to play how players want, if they want to be efficient.Anet barely balance games, they just change one meta to another…player just need to follow the flow.
Oh great! Let’s all re-roll to mesmers because THAT will obviously solve all problems…
The smart thing is to play what you want because what you want is what is going to be fun. Unless all that matters to ppl is to win easily, and I hope not, go with what you like and do your best with it knowing you are at a disadvantage hoping ANET will limit how bad the balance is out of control.