Guild Wars 2

vespers.1759:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

vespers.1759:

I think they have a right to be annoyed when dueling on the east wall of SMC. You see a group of players from all factions standing around while 2 fight and you run up and get involved? how brain dead does one need to be to not recognize it as a duel? that’s also an extremely common dueling location.

And how brain dead can people be to pick a location like that to host a bubble event such as this? What is wrong with you ppl?

this is the guy that runs into duels and fights… gets ganked by the duelers,… comes back… gets ganked again and finally comes to forums and complains about the toxic duelers.

I fail to see your point and will also point out that what you say is plain stupid. How can duelers “ganked”? If you duel, you can’t ganked. At least it won’t be from the guy you duel.

Beside, I don’t see how myself being guilty of doing duels from time to time, a thing I have already admitted several times already (aren’t we slow on the uptake a bit), change even a coma of the argument I used.

Finally, I did not came here to complain. I saw a thread with a sorry amount of logical fallacies. A thread carrying an idea I have a long history of participating in btw. That I like to duel or not is utterly irrelevant to the fact most of my opponents in this thread, including you, are falling back on kittenty logic (AKA logical fallacies) to argue their side of the story.

Out of curiosity, were you part of that team of thieves that would appear out of nowhere in my back to simultaneously backstab my zerker staff ele? Too much skill for me… Must be very hard and risky to get such awesome results… Even 1 such thief is almost guarantee to win vs what I run when he start the fight non stealthed… let alone 3… if it was you, that was not a duel btw…

BTW, I don’t mind dying. It never stopped me from coming back again and again and again etc. I accept many duels I know before it starts I will most likely loose even if I make almost a flawless fight. You don’t get better by having it ez.

Ario.8964:

To define what is cheese:
From my observations, cheese is any build (or mechanic) that people dislike because it stops them from (if they are a typical complainer about cheese) spamming to win or it has a spam to win playstyle (p/d condi thief, condi ranger, etc.). Also used as a way to troll people who got wrecked in a certain scenario but as a description it’s just anything people dislike that is commonly used.

Cheese, for me, was always defining something that was never very risky but yielding big rewards. A lot of condi builds would fall there.

Kaos.9162:

It would be like two players messing around in a hockey game, if the matches went on 24/7 for a week, and one of the teams frequently had dozens or hundreds more players than the other team.

The nature of WvW means that it doesn’t matter if you’re walking around doing nothing, dueling, crafting, or what have you. The only time it makes a difference is if there’s a queue to get into the particular map you’re on, and even then it doesn’t make much difference.

If it makes no difference that you play for PPT or not, the score wouldn’t reflect your investment. Of course, we both know this is BS.

That the matches are unfair is true but it hardly nullify the fact it’s a team context.

zinkz.7045:

TyPin.9860:

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

That is a very good point.

Not really, what is “moral” is subjective, this entire thread is a fine example, some people think the “moral” thing to do is not jump in on a 1v1, others apparently have different views on what is “moral”.

Saying something is subjective is in no way a valid argument to counter the idea proposed when I say ppl who often refer to “laws” or “lack of rules” very often know why they go for that card. In other words, they know it’s not really a defensible position but they are not ready to accept the opposing side argument so they fall back on rules or lack of rules rather than admit they are in their wrong.

The rational behind what is “moral” is supported by the wvw context: Server > Guild or You. The duel moral stand point is that you can play however you like because you have paid just as much as I did and there are no rules saying you can’t do so.

Sadly for the duelers (I am one), that argument is a logical fallacy in itself. WvW is a team game so pleading an individualistic POV is always going to be inherently weak. This is a fact. In a team, let’s say a hockey team, if 2 players decide to play with the puck while not giving a kitten about scoring they, not the rest of the team, are the problem. That there are no rules or penalties for fooling around with the puck changes nothing to the fact they are a problem considering the context.

vespers.1759:

I think they have a right to be annoyed when dueling on the east wall of SMC. You see a group of players from all factions standing around while 2 fight and you run up and get involved? how brain dead does one need to be to not recognize it as a duel? that’s also an extremely common dueling location.

And how brain dead can people be to pick a location like that to host a bubble event such as this? What is wrong with you ppl?

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

KillEveryoneElse.3940:

if you want to duel go to obsidian map and stop being dead weight in wvw

(and if you just stand by when someone from your team comes to help you, your worse than dead weight, your a tumour that needs removing from the GW2 “community”).

“You’re”

And you’re being ridiculously hyperbolic about this. There are sometimes mutual rules agreed upon by duelers (some of us that duel often know them and nothing needs to be said usually). One of those sometimes-rules is that if someone interferes from your own side you can just let them be killed. Got a problem with it? Tough luck. It’s not against the rules.

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

Yeah and everybody goes to Hooters for the wings.

I’m not sure I understand this reference. Might be a language barrier for me…

Anyway, what’s the worst that could happen to anyone involved? Get a free repair and to run for maybe 1 min in a video game? People tend to complain about uneven server populations (and even double teaming) and how that kills the fun but will bandwagon the living daylights out of everyday fights. SMH

That’s beside the point. It’s the wrong place to do that and complain about it when it goes wrong. It’s a team game and too many here say they don’t care. It’s their right to feel that way, but it doesn’t change the game. I wish we will eventually get a place for all this, I really do, but it’s not WvW.

Joey.2769:

It’s super obvious when people are dueling and even if you don’t know if it’s a 1v1 let them do it.

Believe me, it is not always obvious at all and not getting help because someone might be in a duel is a very dumb way to think and a real bad thing to experience when you dont get the help you were hoping for. VERY dumb indeed. If one is to err on the side of caution, he should help his teammate even if in reality his teammate doesn’t want any help. Playing safe mean, if it’s red, it’s dead. Duels and GvG are tolerated. At no moment are they equally legitimate with PPT. Again, server > guild or you in wvw.

Food also make a craft relevant outside pve. we already have a pvp setting that doesn’t permit it. Let this one be…

Mightybird.6034:

Can we make WvW more like SPvP and control all these silly buffs?

How about no? What is it with ppl trying to make wvw more like spvp?

makku.2508:

crouze.3078:

Now let us look at what they gain from 6 points in SA:

• 323 hp / sec in stealth
• remove 1 condition every 3 seconds in stealth
• 2 initiative when entering stealth
• 2x 15s might when entering stealth

Try to compare it to a celestial ele and you’ll see that thief is nothing compared to it.

elementalist gets like:

• perma regeneration (230 hp / sec)
• more heal
• perma protection
• 10 might stacks
• tons of condition removals

Maybe it’s just me, but that sounds a bit silly, huh? You list the things a Thief gets from just speccing into SA, and compare that to what an Elementalist gets from his ENTIRE BUILD (multiple traitlines, sigils, runes & utility skills)? Loving the Thief forums, lol. You guys always find a way to twist things around, don’t ya?

(ironically, just like ingame I might add; losing a fight badly? oh np, I’ll just press that button and it’s k – that’s a nice twist as well, heh)

True. And let’s not forget that stealth in itself is a pretty big deal that is kinda completely left aside in the comparison. Going 6 in SA also mean 1 more sec of stealth each time.

When I duel anywhere in WvW, and I do it a lot, I forgo my right to be angry at anybody who would interrup the fight. It comes with inherent risk. Assume those risks or go
away…

Thanks for your concern. I still enjoy WvW enough to still play it after 2800 hours. Been in WvW since level 2, it is the reason why I bought this game along with my brother and my friends. It is the best mode for players who like chaos and outmanned fights. You won’t find that in PvP, you won’t find real players to fight in PVE, you won’t find any challenge in EotM.

Oh, you think WvW is your territory. But you merely adopted WvW; I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see the PVE/PVP side until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me!

Calm down and stop pretending you know more than you actually do. For starters, I too play since day one so back-off with with your empty adoption claims. Besaide, I really don’t see how the time spent into the game mode is even remotely relevant with the argument you try to counter.

WvW is not “my” territory. It’s the territory of the people who want to fight for their server. Not just you, your server. The way the game is designed the server that makes the more points wins. So if you fight for your server (again not Guild or you) while not caring about making more point, you are not playing it “right”. Sorry to burst your bubble but, yeah, not all play styles are equal in legitimacy.

tl:dr: WvW = SERVER > GUILD OR YOU

Phantom.5389:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I see a lot of irrelevant answers that make it sound like the problem is being a roamer or having duels. It’s not. It never was and it never will be so stop the straw men already.

The problem is the intent and the attitude regarding fights and PPT. Competing for PPT will naturally bring fight if the opponent care to defend. So if you want to fight, just wait for the ennemy to come to any objective. The question is, do you roam, or duel because it will let you cap something (directly or indirectly), or you do this in spite of your team?

I know what you mean. But ‘’for the fights’’ players do not take an attitude regarding PPT on itself, atleast that is not the case for me. I think PPT is not a bad thing to fight for but the way I see players defending a keep/tower is just no to my liking.

Exemple : 4-5 AC’S on the wall firing on the people trying to invade when in fact, the ennemies field 20 person while we field 20 too. I would love to ’’defend’’ if it meant getting open field fight in the lord room or by the gate.

As for capping towers/keep. The same thing apply, but this time I am the one that can’t see the sun since there are too many arrows firing down on me.

You also have to take into consideration that blobs usually goes hand to hand with the PPT/karma train. Those fights can be fun for some people, just not for me.

I understand that, but it’s not how the game is designed. I would prefer if my ennemies would come down and face me but, OTOH, I understand the necessity of having sieges for when you are faced with overwhelming odds. If the sieges are built you are stupid to not use them… The goal is still making more points for your server. Whatever accomplish that goal, short of cheating (which too many do), is good.

Maybe WvW is not for you if that is a problem.

I see a lot of irrelevant answers that make it sound like the problem is being a roamer or having duels. It’s not. It never was and it never will be so stop the straw men already.

The problem is the intent and the attitude regarding fights and PPT. Competing for PPT will naturally bring fight if the opponent care to defend. So if you want to fight, just wait for the ennemy to come to any objective. The question is, do you roam, or duel because it will let you cap something (directly or indirectly), or you do this in spite of your team?

Dhemize.8649:

T raw.4658:

This again?

Thieves are weak 1v1 except vs shatter mesmers. Even then a dble ranged shatter mesmer can win if he’s not taken by surprise

T raw.4658:

Thieves are weak 1v1 except vs shatter mesmers.

T raw.4658:

Thieves are weak 1v1

……………… O.O ………

I pretty much had the same WTF reaction…

Juken.5391:

Discuss?

My problem is I do no dmg. Stance warriors seem incredibly annoying to me.

Wvw and Pvp just wanna see if it’s something I need to do or I just got shrekt by gear (which I doubt)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFEQJAoYlcMozhNOwyB8rNQHQRO/ngPYUAUOHahZA-T1SHABpt/QdKBXUlA+UDwQVI+QVlCOBANp8DMtAwpDAgHAAA-w

this is what I am running atm. probably gonna replace my boots/gloves with cav and my shoulders with celestial. I’m not gonna run food/utility if I’m just guarding my borderland. Rune wise is gonna have to stay too since it’s just too convenient for me.

The focus here is how to fight em btw :P

hammers, axes, sword warriors.

Simply put, your base power is way too low. As for fighting them what weapon are you using?

EDIT sorry for my dumb question about what weapon you use…
As others have said, your best bet will be an attrition war you should win if you play your cards well.

Ballads.2509:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

They can go play another game is the answer. It is sad but it is not because you have no place to play football that you are as legitimate to play football on a golf course as a golf player. Golf players are more legitimate to play golf on a golf course than football players. At best you will be tolerated. And remember that I’m myself indulging in duels regularly and it doesn’t stop me from acknowledging that fact.

Finally, if the only motivation to win lies with loot in this game (and in life) you are missing so much… I hope one day you will get it…

If the Golf course said “Play your way” maybe you could play football there. Anet has said “play your way.” That includes playing for capture points or playing for fights. Sorry you don’t see it that way, but it is the way i play.

You can do e-mote contest if you want but I will credit you with enough intelligence to understand why it would not be as legitimate as PPT.

Several of you ppl are equating the ‘freedom to play because I paid just as much’ with ‘I can do anything I kitten well want’. Bad news for you guys because nowhere in life is it like that.

Kasteros.9847:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

To illustrate the ridiculousness behind the line of thinking…

The irony is strong…

WvW in terms of “winning” as in the score & PPT is a complete and utter joke, and is utterly worthless, for the vast majority of matchups over the course of this game “winning” has consisted of the difference in the number of players the servers have online between about 1am and 3pm the next day, and mindlessly PvDooring against minimal or zero resistance at those times.

The only ridiculous line of thinking is that of deluding yourself that PPT and “winning” at PPT is anything but a totally valueless exercise.

You have worked hard to miss the point so completely. The point was, are you part of the problem or part of the solution. If you refuse to play for PPT in a game designed to be won with PPT you only make it worse and therefore are part of the problem.

The point isn’t so much about winning than it is about showing respect to those that play the game as it’s intended to be. I personally don’t care a bit about the end result, and fights are what is more interesting, but I play to win even if it is mathematically impossible to win. It is a question of attitude.

What about players that want fights only? Anet didn’t make border for them So they have to fight at PPT borders, simple. Also where is wrote that u must ppt? Fighting is also part of WvW so gvg play as intended. Next thing is what win give u? 3 more chests for ranks? Don’t make me laugh pls, winning don’t give u a kitten lol

They can go play another game is the answer. It is sad but it is not because you have no place to play football that you are as legitimate to play football on a golf course as a golf player. Golf players are more legitimate to play golf on a golf course than football players. At best you will be tolerated. And remember that I’m myself indulging in duels regularly and it doesn’t stop me from acknowledging that fact.

Finally, if the only motivation to win lies with loot in this game (and in life) you are missing so much… I hope one day you will get it…

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

You have worked hard to miss the point so completely. The point was, are you part of the problem or part of the solution. If you refuse to play for PPT in a game designed to be won with PPT you only make it worse and therefore are part of the problem.

The point isn’t so much about winning than it is about showing respect to those that play the game as it’s intended to be. I personally don’t care a bit about the end result, and fights are what is more interesting, but I play to win even if it is mathematically impossible to win. It is a question of attitude.

I wasn’t responding to your point, I was responding to the irony of your choice of words, bothering with PPT when it is fundamentally broken and utterly meaningless, is to use your word ‘ridiculous’.

As for the problem, there is no problem, if you want to play meaningless PPT that is your choice, just like if others want to play for fights that is theirs, the only people not showing respect are those like yourself who think everyone should focus on the PPT aspect and play your way.

I’ve already explained before why the alternative to PPT isn’t equally as legitimate. You can decide to ignore it or disagree, it’s your right, but the arguments provided since forever are not equally valid on both side.

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

To illustrate the ridiculousness behind the line of thinking…

The irony is strong…

WvW in terms of “winning” as in the score & PPT is a complete and utter joke, and is utterly worthless, for the vast majority of matchups over the course of this game “winning” has consisted of the difference in the number of players the servers have online between about 1am and 3pm the next day, and mindlessly PvDooring against minimal or zero resistance at those times.

The only ridiculous line of thinking is that of deluding yourself that PPT and “winning” at PPT is anything but a totally valueless exercise.

You have worked hard to miss the point so completely. The point was, are you part of the problem or part of the solution. If you refuse to play for PPT in a game designed to be won with PPT you only make it worse and therefore are part of the problem.

The point isn’t so much about winning than it is about showing respect to those that play the game as it’s intended to be. I personally don’t care a bit about the end result, and fights are what is more interesting, but I play to win even if it is mathematically impossible to win. It is a question of attitude.

Phantom.5389:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

nothing.7941:

You just have to be content with people playing how they like. You obviously don’t like being pressured to give up the PPT battle, trying to pressure people who don’t like PPT to play that way is no better.

But there is a difference. This IS a PPT field. In the same way you can walk a golf course without playing golf, it goes without saying that the priority is for golf and the golf players. You are welcome to walk as long as you don’t have any negative impact on the current games.

Sir, you are wrong on that point. It is not a PPT field. It is WvW.

World versus World (also known as WvW) is a Player versus Player game mode where players from three different servers, or worlds, battle in the Mists.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World

Look at the -Roles- Section.
-The combat among zergs can also be divided into open field and wall fighting.

-Roamers are usually individuals or very small groups that go behind enemy lines to achieve objectives that would normally be impractical or impossible for a zerg. They include : Killing or deterring enemy stragglers and reinforcements.

To each their taste. I highlined the aspect of WvW that I do.

Roamers who contribute to ppt and roamers who don’t want to aren’t the same. Beside, nice try, but no cigar. It is still is a ppt field no matter how you seek to twist it. Ppt is the only way to realistically win.

To illustrate the ridiculousness behind the line of thinking some of you have let’s use spvp or tpvp. Yes, killing opponents gives points in pvp, but if you refuse to play the capping part (PPT) your team will have every right to hate you because winning without capping is not realistic all things being equal. The same applies in wvw.

Malediktus.3740:

Pure skills and GW2 is mutually exclusive since there is RNG in how much dmg you do

There is no such thing as pure skill. There is always more than ‘just skill’ involved even in the most controlled setting. Chaos is part of any fight or war.

Kavor.6183:

What gives the impression that the SOR wants to get to t1?
I can’t speak for all, but i know i don’t want it.

You are not alone. All I ever wanted was competitive matches regardless of tier (too bad our opponents this week seem to see things otherwise when looking at their strategy and behavior).

The community we have since Christmas is drastically different than it was before that point in a positive way. The player base has also gotten better/more experienced as a whole and fairweathers come more often as a result of that success, IMHO.

You can win (kill, not just cap) 1 v 1 with staff. You have to have a mobile playstyle, make good use or your cc and learn to anticipate where your opponent will move when placing your aoe (helping him make the decision you want if possible). Moving inside your aoe, or on the other side, will make it easier to maximize enemy exposition.

Since staff doesn’t have anything like the explosiveness of the other weapon sets, being able to make space to cast a meteor shower (knowing how much damage you can take before having to let go) will be the key to many victory. The staff ‘spikes’ comes from addition of powerful, albeit slow, skills.

For pewpew rangers I find it easier with a staff than with d/d mainly because of earth 3, not because of the range. In fact, you should aim to fight them up-close. Their auto-attack will be less dangerous and using their pewpewness might kill them if used with such little time to react to their own attack if reflected. The better rangers, IMO, will switch to h2h weapons set when in that situation and the fight become fairer.

You can play as squishy as you want but one thing that will be unforgiving is having too little condi-cleansing. A non-moving ele is a dead ele, so movement impeding condi are especially deadly to you. Poison is the other thing that will be a pain since it strongly messes your great healing.

T raw.4658:

Until 1 of you ppt players pony up and give him $60 you can’t dictate how he plays his game. I’m sure he won’t try to dictate how to play your game.

That being said I’ve done FAR worse than phantom. Imagine a for the fights player who just stands there watching you lose that T3 keep because you won’t pay him 20 gold to help defend.

Stop jumping all over him because there are worse ppl out there.

These boards are endless cauldrons of logical fallacies.

First of all, the ‘he paid, therefore he can play however he want’ argument is pure BS. People pay for cinema, games, sports, cars etc. and they can’t do whatever they want because they paid. If you talk out loud during a movie you might get flack for it and eventually get thrown out. If you drive your car like a freaking public danger you ill get arrested. If you don’t behave on a golf course you will be banned. etc.

Second, the ’I’ve done worse’ argument is also BS. Since when the existence of ‘worse’ make it ok to do something ‘bad’? Oh, it’s ok to steal 100$, I’ve stolen 300$… WTF?

nothing.7941:

You just have to be content with people playing how they like. You obviously don’t like being pressured to give up the PPT battle, trying to pressure people who don’t like PPT to play that way is no better.

But there is a difference. This IS a PPT field. In the same way you can walk a golf course without playing golf, it goes without saying that the priority is for golf and the golf players. You are welcome to walk as long as you don’t have any negative impact on the current games.

Vinegaroon.4369:

One point Phantom makes, which i think is ignored, is that he is fighting against the roamers of the other worlds. Now if he broke off his fights to help the besieged, then it would leave those opposite roamers free to do what they want. By keeping them occupied, i believe he was fulfilling a role in the wvw map.

Oh for crying out loud. Yeah, he prevent someone like him who doesn’t give a kitten about PPT to not PPT? Try harder…

What will it be next time? It’s ok to crash your stolen car into someone else’s car because it give employment to doctor, psy, police and mechanics?

If the guy break his fight to help, we have one more to help us and maybe the other side also has one. At worst the situation is the same as before. This is just dumb…

Phantom.5389:

-I will speak as a roamer. It is what I do the most afterall.

-Do I flip camps for the score? No. I flip them so ennemies come. If ennemies come and fight me, do I run and flip more camps? No.

-I once had duels for 2 hours with my friends versus other roamers in my borderland. Map chat was asking for help on Bay and it was fully upgraded/sieged. We lost Bay.
Map chat was asking for help on Hills and it was fully upgraded/sieged. We lost Hills.
Map chat was asking for help on Garri and it was fully upgraded/sieged. We lost Garri.

-In the end the guy wrote a wall of text saying thatif the duelers/spectators came to defend those objectives we could of defended it since it was sieged but had no one to use it. We had around 10 spectarors from both server (total of 20) and about 3 different duels taking place each minutes.

If I ever get in the same situation. I would act the same way. This morning will never be forgotten for me.

You may well do the same but, frankly, the person deserving any scolding here would be you, not the opposite.

I too roam 90% of the time, I too duel a lot, but it is almost always with PPT in mind that I do it. And when I don’t, it’s because my team can afford me to behave like that. It’s a team game and your team playing sux bad…

Discrimination by profession is dumb. The build is way too important to ignore it. You have ez and difficult for all professions.

Quednau.7390:

Ive been fighting for this server for over 2years now and its starting to upset me that my server no longer plays to win the match up.. Theres a matchup forum website where guilds argue and scold one another for “PPTtryharding”, so now we have many great guilds who dont give a crap about PPT.. Our pugs try to hold what tick and upgraded keeps they have but cant hold off against the enemy zergs.. Now our top guilds sit outside stonemist or each other’s keeps waiting for the enemies to show up for a fight. They dont care that we’re whispering them for help in our borderlands. I just dont understand why they cant cap points, defend and find fights at the same time.

I understand how you feel but you have little power over others so concentrate on what is fun and involve satisfaction regarding what YOU do for the team.

Even if fighting is the more fun activity IMO, people scolding you for PPTtryharding are to be ignored. THEY, not you, should GTFO anywhere else. This is a PPT game whether they like it or not.

Alchemist.3692:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

You are hardly only defined by that little detail of shadow step.

This is how you know this guy has never played thief LOL

So, you are telling me that, to you, that little difference is all there is to the profession? Who hasn’t played thief again?

morbidillusion.2759:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Um no. Read it again. The topic is not about the Thief but those who complains about the Thief. Those who single out the Thief (like you) for no valid reason.

Reading comprehension 101.

The rest of your so-called-arguments are moot.

So, the guy you’re talking to thinks Thieves are OP in WvW and plays a glass cannon staff elementalist which is the worst glass cannon build I can think of. The sad part is that this guy is playing a class that has one of the most popular and powerful WvW roaming builds around right now in the form of D/D ele and basically chooses to lose on purpose with his horrible spec that has no place in any form of PvP.

With that said, it is absolutely 1,000,000% more ridiculous for you, in a topic about why people think thieves are still OP, to tell a guy giving a reason for why he thinks thieves are OP that his comments are misplaced or off-topic. This is exactly where his horribly misinformed and out-right incorrect opinions belong.

The guy you are talking to… why the indirect communication? You can reply to me directly if you are to talk about me like that…

IDK why you bring the d/d ele in this. I’m the first one who will admit d/d and staff are extremely different and can themselves be OP in many context themselves. The point was NEVER about singling out the thief so much as to remind that maybe there are legitimate QQ regarding the thief just as with pretty much all other professions.

There seem to be no end of QQ against thieves, but there are just as many QQ from the other side too. And this thread, among many here and on the other forums, tries to paint all the other side as “wrong” or “illegitimate”. Poor, poor thieve, they are so unfairly treated… It’s simply not the case IMO and I’ve said so and in what context it can be totally not the case. You guys have it easy in a lot of wvw context. Saying “so does the other profession” is utterly irrelevant since it doesn’t counter even a coma of what I said.

Still, it doesn’t make your reply any more relevant or any less weird in the way you address me indirectly…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok, now you are trolling me. You asked me why I singled out the thief and I answered you why. Here i the OP:

‘Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.’

The topic and the question asked by the OP ARE about the thief. Get it now why someone answering about the mesmer or ranger would be kinda out of context?

Um no. Read it again. The topic is not about the Thief but those who complains about the Thief. Those who single out the Thief (like you) for no valid reason.

Reading comprehension 101.

The rest of your so-called-arguments are moot.

The OP IS complaining about ppl perception regarding THIEF. Not WAR or MES, THIEF.

Also, I don’t see how you can pretend all the rest is moot. It sure is convenient to pretend it is thought… I guess. But what I understand is you will hear none of it no matter what one says.

Let’s simply disagree then. It’s likely the most we will apparently agree on.

No, the topic you posted is that stealth is the issue and you are singling out the Thief even though Mesmer and Ranger has equal access to the mechanic.

Ok, now you are trolling me. You asked me why I singled out the thief and I answered you why. Here i the OP:

‘Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.’

The topic and the question asked by the OP ARE about the thief. Get it now why someone answering about the mesmer or ranger would be kinda out of context?

My answer to the OP was that there are viable reason as to why many can see thief a OP depending on context. There are legitimate arguments to be made from all side.

You keep on focusing about Thief’s ability to reset but failed to acknowledge that other profession can do the same in their own way.

Wow! more BS! I totally acknowledged, and I do it again right here, that others can do what you said. Nike War was a fine example of it. The problem was/is, it was completely beside the point being made regarding the perceived control of the thief’s opponent. Remember when I explained to you why it was a straw man? Yet, here you are again with that logical fallacy… long story short you are not exchanging on the topic in good faith and I feel like I’m being trolled.

You complain about the Thief controlling the fight using stealth, yet a lot of Thieves would rather dance around you.

WTF is that answer? How is it even remotely relevant knowing my argumentation?

You’re just complaining about the Thief for the sake of complaining without any coherent reason why.

Sure, ofc if one is to ignore all I say and put different words into my mouth I can see why you say that… But that is different than me complaining for the shake of it. Beside I’m not complaining so much as saying Thief CAN be OP in some context and not at all in others.

What I’m telling you is that no one is of equivalent caliber to another. The only one who is your equivalent is you.

Sure, but I’m pretty sure you have perfectly understood what I meant. Compare a thief that has played his build for as long as I did mine if you prefer.

Many players plays Thief very differently and you’re using the fallacy of broad generalization just so you can complain about the Thief when you’re probably only less than 10% correct.

No. sorry but my answer to the OP was not a sweeping generalization. I took care of setting a context. I also said that thieves CAN be OP. CAN a opposed to ARE. Meaning not all QQ are always illegitimate depending on circumstance. So far, people here totally reject even the possibility of that nuance which is quite something. I have no calm about criticizing my favorite profession and admit when some stuff is possibly OP. I’m not going to suddenly judge by different standards.

Because that’s what it is. You simply play better — which doesn’t prove your point.

So, let me get this straight. I would play better than you, but you still insist that such a person has not yet learned what you obviously know? Anybody beside me is having a hard time grasping the logic behind that line of thinking?

Can those who would tell me L2P show me how it’s done? Here is a staff, and a zerker ele, show me vs a thief who has as much exp as you have with an ele… If you can’t show me what you mean by L2P, you got no place to tell me, or anybody, L2P. You should stop using a ridiculous argument. Because, let’s face it, it would be pretty worthless.

If I do better, it proves that I am a better player. If you do better, it proves that you are a better player.

Since when the lesser player is in any position to tell the better one L2P? Or do you really naively think someone who has a much experience as I do with my build and profession hasn’t had enough opportunities to learn and experiment? Is it even possible for you to admit that, yeah, maybe, in some settings, Thieves can be a tad OP at times compared to others? I can admit that for my main profession but thief is a no-no.

Either way, it has nothing to do with the Thief having an issue or it being OP.

If no matter the skill level of the staff ele overcoming the majority of similarly experienced thieves in most wvw context remain extremely hard, bordering the miraculous, I’d strongly rethink the matter being one of “L2P” and maybe begin to accept that thieves too can be strongly favored (arguably too strongly favored sometimes) in some contexts.

Yes, other professions can also be guilty of this, but, again, the OP complained about the thief perception not the mesmer or whatever else. Telling me others are no better is a logical fallacy in itself.

Are you even reading me or what? I complain about the thief and not the mesmer because the topic is about the thief. On top of it, I’m starting to get impatient because people show very little good will when they read me and argue.

Second, you are aiming at something particular when you say L2P. I’m sorry but that reply not only make no sense it it illustrate quite well what makes me less patient. You imply I should not have issues with thieves of equivalent caliber with my ele. We aren’t talking warrior or whatever. The target is clear.

Finally, how can it be a L2P issue if I play my ele better than you who seek to judge me about how I play it ? You said with my experience stealth shouldn’t be a problem. So either you are telling me you would do better than me with my own build vs thieves of equivalent level or maybe just maybe there is something about stealth that can make it a problem to tell others to L2P. L2P isn’t always the answer to everything being the point…

What exactly happen when they stealth? If you say they heal to full health, well other profession can do that too. Within the 3s-4s that the Thief is in stealth, they do no damage, which gives you the chance to regen your health.

What happens when they stealth is we loose trace of them and they don’t loose trace of us. If the thief decide to come back from stealth and fight, the fight continue. Otherwise it won’t. The power to chose if there is or not a fight and if it continues is essentially the thief to decide. That is very powerful. Healing or not isn’t the crux of the matter. It’s how much power you feel you are left when you play vs them with a squishy like me.

I’m still not convince why it is ridiculous.

I don’t remember saying it was ridiculous. I said:
Thieves CAN be OP in WvW.
Thieve are not OP in PVP.

I even said they aren’t OP in general if you actually read what I write as opposed to put more words in my mouth. BUT, frankly, thieve CAN be OP in WvW. Some builds are pure crazy cheese that have 1% risk vs 99% reward (looking at you condi/rabid pistol dagger who only need to spam condi and safely watch his prey die in the shadows).

I’m sorry but I also have all profession at 80 and I call BS HARD core on this. A thief can FAR more easily reset any fight because he can do so with or without running away. For some reasons you completely evacuated stealth out the window. At this point you should just be honest and say: “F*** you, I don’t care”. It would at least have the merit to be honest.

I can as easily reset the fight with my Necro just by going in and out of death shroud. My Mesmer and Ranger has access to stealth. My Warrior has a ridiculous 24/7 health regen. My Guardian resets using meditation. Engis resets when they drop turrets. Elementalist has many ways to reset a fight just by switching attunements.[] If you read what I write, that is NOT the point. Many necro are incredibly hard to defeat for me but I never felt I was not in control of the fight or the decision to have or not a fight. With a thief, and to a lesser extent some mesmers, (yeah stealth is the problem) it’s very different.

Take your pick. You’re probably just building your professions wrong.

Come on… I play that profession since day one, I solo roam, tpvp, duel and whatever else with that profession and it works vs 90% of the builds out there. I have won vs pretty much all possible builds in the game and I’ve played enough to have died more than 10k times with it. In other words, I’ve played a lot with it. The L2P thesis is r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. Seriously.

Ah! here we are… pathetic. Ok, mister I can play your staff ele better than you… duel me and show me. You wanna defend that L2P BS? Here is your chance, pick your time and place and take your ele. We will see how works for you. No more empty words, actions. If you win, Ill be the first to apologize and eat all my words back… Show me…

What exactly will this prove? Even if you win, it will not prove that Thief is broken, simply that I need to L2P my Elementalist. /facepalm

Uh… I dunno… that it is not a L2P issue? If you can tell me I should have no problem vs the thief and it’s a L2P issue, it kinda imply you play better than I can with what you judge: my ele build. Therefore, I expect you to put your money where your mouth is… To make it simple it might force you to resort to something else than “L2P” to defend your POV. Any other easy questions? Still facepalming?

And if I win, you simply need to L2P your Thief. It doesn’t negate the fact that it is a L2P issue.

You really like your logical fallacies. My problem is with my ele, not my thief. Your L2P comment is aiming my ele, not my thief. Be coherent plz.

I fought good Thieves in WvW with my other professions, but never would I call it broken — they’re just good and they’ve outplayed me.

Compare apples with apples. I’m talking about a player as good with his thief as I am with my staff ele. Even I can defeat scrub or ok thieves with my staff. I don’t compare myself to what can’t be compared.

To address your post; I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I said that some Thief would rather dance around you.

Which is nice and reasonable. I agree with that.

If you say so.

So, you agree with him? A simple yes or no will suffice…

Like I said, what would it prove?

Assuming that you win…then what? You hardly prove anything other than you’re good at playing Thief — has nothing to do with the profession being OP or whatever.

Read above. It will prove that a guy in a position to tell me “L2P” my staff ele will have failed to be better than me… make your own conclusions and next time be more careful about that “L2P” answer because it can come back at you.

TeemuS.7934:

Another nerf to thiefs?

There has been few places where it has been possible to use infiltrators arrow to get to roofs.

For example vale camp entry point. On the left side (looking from outside of the camp) its been possible to get up on the roof with infiltrators arrow (thief shortbow skill nr. 5)

Now it just says no valid path..

So imagine fight when there is 20 man group keeping choke down on the camp side because they have sieged up the wall to attack bay. All of their ranged classes are up on the roof protected by 20 man melee train.

we have equal numbers but we cant push that since we cant get to their periphery

in the old times i would have stealthed our counter periphery team went up on the roof and bomb their periphery so our melee can push to the choke.

Now i get NO VALID PATH makes me wanna change class already..

Even portal bomb there is impossible now since mesmer has to go all the way around and there is no enough stealth for that.

And thats not the only place where!

Second thing is when you get jumped.
In the old times i would have used a shortcut to get away.
not anymore..

Almost every other class has real things to get away from enemy spikes.
We have had these shortcuts to shadowstep to when you get spiked.

Elementalists have Lightning Flash, mist form, armor of earth
Necros have 40-50k health almost full BERSERKER if they are properly traited
Rangers got signet of stone making them ilvunerable, you know this stuff!
Warriors got endure pain (usually if they go zerker)
Guardians shelter and renewed focus
Engi also gets massive heals and ilvunerability
Mesmers can reset any fight if they know how to use portal, this class also has great amount of ilvunerability

Even downed state is so buffed that you cant kill an elementalist on a mile radius of their tower.

Ranger downed state? even full berserker thief cant do enough dps to kill ranger if they get to the point where pet starts to revive him.

What do we have? for condi removal we got shadowstep that you have to use fully to cure conditions so it means stepping back to enemy spike if you want to cure conditions..
And thats only properly working stun breaker aswell

Stealth is counted for our survival?
Not really, ranger rapid fire hits even if ur been in stealth for 10 minutes
so does necros chostly claws both doing over 10k damage.

I mean we only get nerfd in every singe patch all the time and its not so fun to play thief anymore tbh..

These shortcuts have been a lifeline to thiefs

Downed state on thief? Well we all know its a joke.

Best Regards
Teemus

Oh, cry me a river. Your “nerf” is to have exactly the same skill as others…

Yes other professions have other stuff, but so does thieves. You are hardly only defined by that little detail of shadow step. Or do we get to ignore you have insane access to stealth because it’s convenient to do so? I don’t know how many times I’d not be dead had I had stealth instead of mist form. Please…

The problem with this statement is that it is not exclusive to the Thief. Other professions such as Warriors, Mesmers, Elementalist, Necros, Engis, Rangers and Guardians can reset the fight also…wait, that’s all the professions. kitten right!

And the problem with your reply is the fact it’s a straw man argument… I also have all profession to 80 and I can’t tell if you are serious or just purposefully missing the point of what I,m saying. It’s almost as if several of you guys refuses to even consider another POV. The lack of perceived control by the thief’s opponent I was referring isn’t even mainly cause by him having fast movements. A Nike war doesn’t give’s me anything close to the perceived lack of control a thief can despite the fact he can easily engage and disengage by running away. It’s the stealth on top of it that makes it all ridiculous in WvW.

I have level 80 of each profession and I can reset a fight whenever I want to. It’s much much easier with my Warrior and Necro though all thanks to the Warhorn.

I’m sorry but I also have all profession at 80 and I call BS HARD core on this. A thief can FAR more easily reset any fight because he can do so with or without running away. For some reasons you completely evacuated stealth out the window. At this point you should just be honest and say: “F*** you, I don’t care”. It would at least have the merit to be honest.

“Broken” is the word used by players with a L2P issue, so please abstain from using it if you want to be taken seriously.

Ah! here we are… pathetic. Ok, mister I can play your staff ele better than you… duel me and show me. You wanna defend that L2P BS? Here is your chance, pick your time and place and take your ele. We will see how works for you. No more empty words, actions. If you win, Ill be the first to apologize and eat all my words back… Show me…

Besides, not all Thieves “disappears” — many are willing to dance around you until you die.

Here is where I know you have only read and understood what you wanted instead of what I’ve said… I never said or even implied all thieves were SA6. I DID say, however, that the crushing majority in WvW were SA6. If you say you disagree, please elaborate because I’ve spent way too much time there to find it even a little believable. This argument, again, isn’t even one. It counters nothing I’ve said, it just tries to make it look like it did: straw man.

What’s next? You will tell me you agree with kid delusion above when he says Thieves are bad roamers and duelers?!!

Better yet, let’s not pretend that this is a Thief issue and not a L2P issue.

I’m waiting for you in game with your staff ele in zerker gear (you did said you had all profession at 80 right? and that it’s a L2P issues so…)… I hope for you you live up to your bla-bla… You are about to discover what “hard mode” really means…

MaXi.3642:

I like your first example, but this doesn’t really need to be done in the map functionality, people can just wait in their base after respawn if they think they would just come in a die instead of turning the tide… and if they think they can turn the tide, it’s ok to let them go… they have a choice…

Exactly. I don’t understand what is the problem with that map. People aren’t forced to be lemmings. Beside, it’s the only death match map we have…

Solo.2416:

aha you reap what you sow. none of us will ever go back, not with all that useless drama you made us go through. rott in tier 8 forever you guys deserve every bit of it especially the crap pve guilds bye and good riddance

Wow, that’s bitter all right. Sadly for you I agree that we deserve what we have and it’s awesome. Your loss…

Ok… I see that people will only listen to what they like. Have fun kids…

Thief is awful in WvW. In zergs, all they can do is sit in the back and cast venoms every 30 seconds and hit nothing because they are the only class in the entire game with no 12,000 range attack options.

They aren’t the best in that setting even if they do have their strength. They excel at putting a lot of pressure on the squishy…

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief. In small gang roaming, thief is ok, but only because it turns into sPvP and they can jump in to outnumber a fight and disengage quickly.

Wait, what?!!! I think it’s more a case of l2p here… that or the troll-o-meter just exploded…

If you’re getting owned by thieves you must be specced wrong or just plain bad. The only thing a thief can solo in this meta are zerker builds. The only zerker builds people are roaming with is guard, ranger, and maybe like power necro in groups. Ranger is the only one that stands a chance of dying if they are at keyboard. To most other builds, thieves literally die as collateral damage when they go into melee range and the bunker is healing, AOEing, etc.

Or, maybe it’s you who sux at it. If it’s me who ins’t good as a staff using ele, I can tell you that a boatload of ppl are sucking hard by your standards… Ask people who know me, or better yet, duel me…

Yes, I’m zerker geared, but most all other professions are perfectly fine for me to fight and hope to win. I do defeat thieve with my staff (beginner or an occasional good one who stopped being cautious and made a mistake) but I can assure you they don’t tell anyone about it because it’s quite hard to loose to a zerker staff ele when you are a d/d or p/d thief. It’s your fight to loose seriously…

The OPs “Serious Question” has been answered a thousand times by the very nerf-criers in these forums. People think thieves are OP because they can run away and not die and drop free loot.

Whether you like it or not they DO have some issues in WvW. Denying it changes nothing. They aren’t OP on general, but in WvW they have all you need to produce truly OP monsters.

1. The Good

What makes you want to play your elementalist? When I ask people in my guild they usually respond with “I haven’t logged into him/her for awhile.” I would think conjures would be the main selling point but what makes you play as an Elementalist?

No other profession give you the sheer versatility of an ele. None. You are always relevant/useful. Always.

2. The Bad

What are the worst aspects class I have to accept? I mained a ranger while they were still relatively tame and I made it work. I didn’t mind the lower coefficients on skills and the micro the pet had. Now, what do I have to learn to get good with an ele?

I hope you don’t mind dying while learning because if not don’t play that profession. I died over 10k times to get where I am… having the lowest life pool and armor makes you prone to hit the ground a lot at first (Ok, I solo roam with zerker gear and a staff 99% of the time so…). The moto “no pain, no gain” apply specially well here but the reward is sweet when you achieve a certain level of mastery…

3. The Build

I am thinking of making this character be able to do all content. Is dagger/focus fine for that (with a little staff on the side?) I know I am going to have her use celestial accessories but what of the runes/armor? Is it really fine to go full celestial or is the class more focused on damage to the point that I should mix it with some berserker/soldier? Divinity runes?

Staff is the best weapon to do all content for me (spvp, tpvp, wvw, pve). When I play d/d, for example, in wvw I feel half as useful as when I use my staff and I do jut a well in tpvp. Dueling with d/d is a lot easier though even for me who is far stronger with staff than I am with d/d… The exception being pewpew rangers that I find far easier with staff. Thieves OTOH…

Right now Celestial is the flavor of the moment. That being said, I came to my current build by starting with all zerker and then tweaking with my traits and skill until it felt at least playable for me. I sugget you experiment and find your own comfort zone rather than lazily go to metabattle. Chances are you will yourself end-up using a build very close to their’s anyway down the line… But the process will be worth it.

DeceiverX.8361:

The only way you’re resetting so constantly in WvW is by building 6 into Shadow Arts and using a permanent stealth uptime build. Otherwise, the reset potential is over-stated since most other classes have similar if not better engage potential and much better potential at keeping the thief engaged in combat while at a weakness if outplayed first.

Thief mobility can easily make him break of fight too without too much trouble considering all that is available and the ini mechanic. Not all opponents are Nike War (I main a staff ele that doesn’t use FGS). The extremely rare thief that don’t abuse stealth in WvW will have awesome mobility. But, let’s be honest here, the crushing majority in WvW have that 6 in SA.

I suppose I should be grateful they aren’t all condi/perplexity walking and smelling cheese with 1% risk v 99% reward though…

I have sympathy for Thief in pvp, truly, but absolutely none at all in WvW. It’s day and night.

Palleon.1657:

I’m fairly new to WvW, but a long time GW2 player.

However, I was under the impression that the other servers players were fairly anonymous – which made it very odd when, last night, a player started private messaging me giving me abuse because apparently I had killed him when I was part of a “blob” and that I sucked, and should come and meet him one on one where he would teach me a lesson. He kept telling me that my server’s “blob” was too big, and that I should stop them from doing this style of play.

How exactly he thought I was going to be able to influence all the players on the server I was part of, I don’t know.

However, my question is – how do players on other servers know my name (I thought it just showed my class and server)? Is it normal they then contact you to give you abuse? And then.. is my server bad for having a group of players following a commander as he runs around taking castles?

I suggest you block these insignificant peoples and be done with it.

Don’t we all…

Drennon.7190:

Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.

I have a lvl 80 thief thank you. I’m not a good thief at all mind you but let’s be honest here, in some context they are (WvW) OP while in others they aren’t at all (PvP). I’m the first one to admit thief are not that great in the conquest pvp mechanic we have.

Personally, in WvW, that ability to engage/flee/reset every fight at will until they get things their way (AKA waiting for the opponent defenses to all be on cool down and then unload with utmost impunity from behind) is what irks me to no end. 95% of the time, the thief control the fight or if there will be one at all. That lack of perceived control from the non-thief opponent (specially the squishy ones) is not helping.

Some builds, even if they are more annoying then efficient (endless strike and disappear rinse and repeat kinda mosquitoes wannabes), are also almost impossible to defeat unless the thief is willing to stop playing it safe. Again, the control is almost entirely in the thief’s hands which is kittening annoying as kitten and, yeah, broken in many ways from some perspectives at least.

Of course there are ways to counter some builds but let’s not try and pretend there are no issues…

Long story short, some qq are legitimate, others no so much.

Softspoken.2410:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Demonzu.4215:

The reason WvW being part of map completion is a problem is because if you happened to roll a character on a bad WvW server you have 0 chance of ever completing it. You shouldn’t be forced to switch servers to finish content. If you had no problems getting any portion of the wvw map consider yourself lucky.

That is false. You always had a chance because you never always play the same color. It might be long to get without any fighting, but hardly impossible even if you can’t be bothered to fight at all.

It’s not uncommon for low-tier servers to spend 4+ weeks without seeing the Green side of the map.

True, that mean it can be long, not impossible.

Ogre.3124:

With the growing in population of late with Gw2, more and more trolling of GvGs are taking place. All it takes is for one dude to ruin a GvG match whether its in the obsidium sanctum or by the windmill. Last year and before that I’d say 99% of players respected gvgs and stayed on the side lines. New players are not familiar with this and there seems to be here-and-there players with no guild tags shooting arrows into the arena. This is solved by many things; one of which being instanced matches.

As to why this is important; contrary to belief, GvG is popular among servers and especially the WvW community. Any person who even casually delves into WvW probably knows who the guild [Agg] is yet doesn’t know the top 3 tpvp teams. The matchup of the #1 ranked gvg guild in NA against the #1 EU guild got more than 1000 viewers on a channel which typically got maybe 20. Though many people like to watch gvgs and know the scores of who won/lost, people are discouraged from entering the scene due to two things: the gvg scene is simply dying off and the only support dev-wise is an open arena in obsidium sanctum (which everyone is thankful for.)

However, times have changed and near HoT release towards after HoT release; doing gvgs will be almost impossible without trolling. If GvGs were instanced similar to an spvp or tpvp matchup, many more people would be interested. As for the rampant disappointment of Stronghold only being 5v5, the players really want a viable way to do large-scale matchups of 15v15 or 20v20. For the gvg scene to continue into HoT, having instanced matches would save from having 100% of the people surrounding a matchup to simply not run forward and start pressing skills.

There is also the issue of there not being enough spaces for guilds to gvg. On Tier 2 NA servers there is always at least two guilds on the same server taking turns doing their GvGs in obs. Two nights ago there were three guilds rotating on fort aspenwood, of which isn’t really helped by doing gvgs at separate times due to guilds only being on around NA prime time. This is also including the current state of gvg which many would agree is in a dying state — imagining a surplus of guilds trying to gvg in HoT would be ridiculous in the amount of waiting and taking turns. Instanced 15v15s and/or 20v20s would help grow not only the gvg scene but interest in Gw2 pvp as a whole.

I said it in the past, I respect people’s tastes, I indulge in duels and I prefer fights myelf in WvW but there is no such thing as trolling a GvG that take place in a WvW map in the same way there is no duel trolls.

Even if I myself hate having a duel interrupted (yeah, I do them too), WvW is not the place for that. It’s not my teammate’s fault if he wanted to help me against a red guy. People who fight for PPT are legitimate, you (we) are not. You can do duel and GvG, but in many ways the trolls are those who GvG or duel from the perspective of the server population that came to play the legitimate game because when you GvG you don’t contribute to the game (spare me the 1 pt stomp BS contribution, you know what I mean).

That being said, I hope ANET can provide people with a place where they can do what they refer to as ‘GvG’.