Guild Wars 2

Loxsus.3841:

Sunflowers.1729:

Choppy.4183:

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

Well…

There’s also the argument that “Thieves have been able to do this since forever, so why is everyone fine with them doing it but not Mesmers?”

That’s basically it, yes.

It’s cheesy, like you said previously, but this is NOT new. What’s new is that mesmers can do it now and not just thieves and that’s WEIRD (for some reason). The duration is fine. The buffs it give are fine.

What needs to change, as has also been said, are there needs to be more ways to REVEAL a target. The length of stealth isn’t the problem it’s the lack of counter play which has been echoed a lot by a few people. But if they nerf PU’s duration they should be fair and gut the thief while they’re at it.

I can also think its fair that casting a phantasm SHOULD count as revealed … unless it misses like the thief blind thing.

It’s also kittening false that “everyone was fine with them (thieves) doing it”. Tons of ppl were definitely NOT fine with it at all. I sure never was and I still am not. Now, it’s no longer just thieves but kittening Mesmers too with all the consequences that goes along.

That thief argument is pure BS squared.

denis.9487:

Also the pure lack of knowledge. The hate is from reading or listening from others. People still worried about clone death. Lol. Please play the Mesmer then understand what’s going on in order to fight them. It is blind hate. Because we Mesmer use stealth they scream pu. Just really a lack of basic knowledge and the riot mentality. Hate for no reason.

Like I said, I do play a mesmer and I do fight a lot of them too. It is not just blind hate. They really are extremely hard to defeat at all for a large majority of the builds even if facing players that have thousands more hours on other professions.

Some build factually carry little to no risk vs high reward and were made even worse after the patch. Looking at you PU. Ppl have legitimate reasons to complain in this case whether you feel like acknowledging it or not.

Necrotize.2974:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Necrotize.2974:

This will probably be a fairly divisive topic judging from what my guildmates had to say, but I’d like to know where everyone stands on Prismatic Understanding. Also a really long post, but if you’re not willing to read it I can’t really force you.

I personally think it is fine as is for a few reasons. Way back before several changes, 1 second of extra stealth really didn’t mean much(hell, thieves got that in a minor trait), but the boons were strong since they were all defensive. Then Swiftness and Might got thrown in, making it a lot less reliable kitten seconds of might when you’ve just entered 4 seconds of stealth is kinda…not useful. So adding Might and Swiftness to the mix was(IMO) a nerf. Increasing the duration to 100% was a good decision because now all the Chaos Grandmaster traits actually feel like build defining traits. It is actually a tough decision to pick one of them, which is how it should be for all trait lines. I’d much rather have tough choices to make instead of entire trait lines that are only really worthwhile if you’re going in for one specific trait. I think this is how all GM traits should be, build and playstyle defining, but not inherently more powerful than the others.

I understand a lot of people’s qualms with PU have to do with stealth. Mesmers, stealth, conditions and clones were all things that made for an annoying fight that didn’t require much risk on the mesmer’s part. This strategy was only really viable and common in WvW roaming(which is btw not a gamemode the game is balanced around) and was essentially useless in 2 of the 3 gamemodes(SPvP and PvE). Long duration stealth doesn’t help you kill your opponent, that’s why those mesmers relied on clone condition application. With the nerf to maim, this strategy is a lot less viable, especially now that burning has become king of dmg conditions and mesmers have almost no way to apply it, let alone stack it.

I’ve started using PU in SPvP as sort of an offpoint harasser and sidecapper. I can say from experience that while 100% duration is a lot, I almost never stay in stealth for that long. Staying in stealth for that long just gives your opponent time to regain cds and prepare. I use stealth for re-positioning, which the added duration is great for. If it were reverted to its previous iteration of 1 extra second and random picks from 5 boons, 2 of them being almost useless at that point, I’d probably never consider PU on tier with the other GM traits again. Giving my opponent a chance to recover and coming out of stealth with 2 stacks of might, some swiftness and maybe one of the defensive buffs really doesn’t seem worthy of a GM trait and if I really wanted boons that badly, I’d just go for Bountiful Disillusionment.

Also keep in mind that Anet seems to be moving towards more reveal access for certain classes. Engi’s lock-on, the spoiled guardian trap, ranger shout and WvW’s stealth trap are all good sources of reveal, so please don’t come to this thread just to complain about stealth. I want to hear opinions on Prismatic Understanding on MESMERS, not stealth in general and not cross class comparisons.

Anybody who has played for at least an hour in wvw and was not a mesmer will tell you this build is supremely broken with no risk at all. It is just THAT bad. At least in WvW.

And I’d be willing to bet it’d be coming from a 1v1 or small group roaming perspective, which may come as a shock to you, but those aren’t supported game modes. This game isn’t balanced around 1v1s or 2v2 in an area expanding almost endlessly on all sides with no real objective other than to kill as many people as possible. If it was, there’d be no need for zergs in WvW, everyone would just run in small groups or go solo. PU has always been superior when it came to dueling because there’s no real objective other than to slowly win. There’s no downside to backing out to reset the fight in a 1v1 in WvW.

As for PU’s contribution to a zerg(the other two GM traits would probably be better suited for a zerg though), the only big impact is on Veil, and stealthing an entire zerg for greater than 2 seconds was nothing a few mesmers couldn’t accomplish already anyway.

It does come from 1 v1 perspective and such but also from entire groups having very hard time catching ONE mesmer and not all of those trying are bad players at all far from it. When you HAVE to mobilize 10+ ppl just to get ONE guy it’s kittening annoying. And sadly, no, you can’t just ignore that mesmer because if you do all hell will break loose inside any objective it is in as opposed to a thief trolling you while doing the same.

You could always solo towers. However, yeah, it should be made near impossible for one player alone.

Lytro.9305:

I think they’re in a good place, even without using a meta build I still have fun. I use a staff build for pvp and it’s really fun, squishy but fun. I found them to be a little more accessible, although it might be a placebo for me, but they are still challenging to play. I don’t see anything wrong with them at the moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bd-9UY6eOI <- that’s the build I use, if anyone was interested.

I also play zerk staff with Fire, Air and Water and I love it. The only difference with you is that I went Tempest defense/LR in Air and I kept the cantrip traditional choices in water. I can easily sustain above 15 might stacks and reach 25 if the fight last longer than 15 seconds. I thought I’d miss my arcana but I really don’t.

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

This whole thing and the vocal people against PU (not that PU was ever short of haters) reminds me of when Rangers got the longbow buff.

Mesmers needed a stealth buff for WvW, as a Mesmer if you were losing a fight or had to disengage you had to use MI and hope you got far enough away that you could get somewhere safe.

Other promising combos were torch and blink or decoy and blink. Other than that you had to rely on your opponent being stupid enough to be fooled by a clone.

Just to remind those who don’t play Mesmer often, there is no cripple or confusion on clone death, no weakness and bleed. Put simply there is no drawback to slaughtering clones and phantasms by the bucket. There is simply very few ways to slow down an enemy from catching you if you’re a Mesmer and need to escape and everyone but guardian is faster than you.

If you’re wrecking people as mesmer, well it’s probably the rapid fire syndrome, people just aren’t used to it yet. Give it a few weeks and you’ll be running over stealth traps everywhere and PU will become a wasted trait, especially when you look at inspiration and illusion GMs.

Have you been on the receiving end of such mesmers? I get that it is fun to play them, and I have played them myself, but come on… And the stealth trap as a counter? You serious here?

Yes I have played against them, I even did it this morning on my (very neglected) ranger as I was setting up a WvW build and very rarely have I lost because of PU. When I have lost its because someone else +1 the fight.

Mesmer burst is easy to predict if you know what you’re looking for. I guess my experience with mesmer is what meant I wasn’t being killed by them.

Mesmers used to be very easy kills, if you trained them down they were in a lot of trouble as the stealth they had didn’t last long enough to really put distance and stand a good chance of getting far enough away, remember all classes but guard are faster than Mesmer in WvW especially in roaming specs.

You describe a very different experience than mine, but then again I mainly play a zerker staff ele (pretty bad match for me whether shatter or PU). I almost never die when I’m on my mesmer (also zerk) unless I’m being too arrogant. What you describe with mesmer stealth and them not being able to escape absolutely doesn’t jibe with what I’ve experienced on both side of the fence. If I wanted to reset a fight there was barely nothing my opponent could do to prevent it and I got thousands more hours on my ele than on my mesmer so…

Before the patch it was very hard I found to escape, people generally would give chase even if you popped out of stealth 3s distance away. Generally I needed blink and decoy or blink and torch to get away. That or MI. Even then some classes could chase me down.

After patch I can get far enough away that they stop chasing or don’t bother. Still a CD wasted and I wait before engaging again. MI is very strong right now, veil seems about right and torch and decoy are strong but wouldn’t call them as overpowered as others would lead everyone to believe.

Here’s hoping if it does get nerfed they stick it to +2s. We’ll see tomorrow.

I don’t want the mesmer to get nerf. I love the mesmer concept a lot. I just think that some game mechanics in the game are cancerous and that unfortunately mesmers benefit a bit too much from that cancer in WvW at the moment.

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

This whole thing and the vocal people against PU (not that PU was ever short of haters) reminds me of when Rangers got the longbow buff.

Mesmers needed a stealth buff for WvW, as a Mesmer if you were losing a fight or had to disengage you had to use MI and hope you got far enough away that you could get somewhere safe.

Other promising combos were torch and blink or decoy and blink. Other than that you had to rely on your opponent being stupid enough to be fooled by a clone.

Just to remind those who don’t play Mesmer often, there is no cripple or confusion on clone death, no weakness and bleed. Put simply there is no drawback to slaughtering clones and phantasms by the bucket. There is simply very few ways to slow down an enemy from catching you if you’re a Mesmer and need to escape and everyone but guardian is faster than you.

If you’re wrecking people as mesmer, well it’s probably the rapid fire syndrome, people just aren’t used to it yet. Give it a few weeks and you’ll be running over stealth traps everywhere and PU will become a wasted trait, especially when you look at inspiration and illusion GMs.

Have you been on the receiving end of such mesmers? I get that it is fun to play them, and I have played them myself, but come on… And the stealth trap as a counter? You serious here?

Yes I have played against them, I even did it this morning on my (very neglected) ranger as I was setting up a WvW build and very rarely have I lost because of PU. When I have lost its because someone else +1 the fight.

Mesmer burst is easy to predict if you know what you’re looking for. I guess my experience with mesmer is what meant I wasn’t being killed by them.

Mesmers used to be very easy kills, if you trained them down they were in a lot of trouble as the stealth they had didn’t last long enough to really put distance and stand a good chance of getting far enough away, remember all classes but guard are faster than Mesmer in WvW especially in roaming specs.

You describe a very different experience than mine, but then again I mainly play a zerker staff ele (pretty bad match for me whether shatter or PU). I almost never die when I’m on my mesmer (also zerk) unless I’m being too arrogant. What you describe with mesmer stealth and them not being able to escape absolutely doesn’t jibe with what I’ve experienced on both side of the fence. If I wanted to reset a fight there was barely nothing my opponent could do to prevent it and I got thousands more hours on my ele than on my mesmer so…

ASP.8093:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

And right now, in WvW at least, this is pretty much all the mesmer is. A joke that let players with a few dozens of hours on their mesmer possibly easily triumph over players with thousands of hours on their main or that can troll entire groups forever (yeah so can thieves but how does that help it make it less annoying? I hate those thieves too).

In WvW, I can tell exactly who is an experienced mesmer (or a very experienced thief playing mesmer) and who is just trying it now. The latter absolutely get pasted by organized teams even without any way to apply Revealed(*), and die very quick in 1v1 unless they’re playing tanky PU condition builds (in which case you have to hit them a lot to kill them).

• - The game definitely does need more ways to apply Revealed, though.

Sure, but how long does it take to get to that comfort zone? Not that long. Specially how it is now.

What the game really need if it want to keep stealth as it is is a way to force a character out of stealth. Not just prevent it from using it (revealed) but actively ending stealth.

apharma.3741:

This whole thing and the vocal people against PU (not that PU was ever short of haters) reminds me of when Rangers got the longbow buff.

Mesmers needed a stealth buff for WvW, as a Mesmer if you were losing a fight or had to disengage you had to use MI and hope you got far enough away that you could get somewhere safe.

Other promising combos were torch and blink or decoy and blink. Other than that you had to rely on your opponent being stupid enough to be fooled by a clone.

Just to remind those who don’t play Mesmer often, there is no cripple or confusion on clone death, no weakness and bleed. Put simply there is no drawback to slaughtering clones and phantasms by the bucket. There is simply very few ways to slow down an enemy from catching you if you’re a Mesmer and need to escape and everyone but guardian is faster than you.

If you’re wrecking people as mesmer, well it’s probably the rapid fire syndrome, people just aren’t used to it yet. Give it a few weeks and you’ll be running over stealth traps everywhere and PU will become a wasted trait, especially when you look at inspiration and illusion GMs.

Have you been on the receiving end of such mesmers? I get that it is fun to play them, and I have played them myself, but come on… And the stealth trap as a counter? You serious here?

Tristan.5280:

So i recently start playng with my mesmer in pvp, and in one of my first match one of my teammates told me that i am using an OP class and started telling baad things of me. And this happened to others matches and other players too.

Why all this hate? I though that the most hated class was thief, not mesmer

btw, i was using a burst shatter build that a friend of mine suggested me. Is that build so OP?

I’ll speak for myself. I love the concept of mesmer in itself and I have one too but I hate anything that get to have all the reward at no risk (yes, like some thieves since you talked about them). And right now, in WvW at least, this is pretty much all the mesmer is. A joke that let players with a few dozens of hours on their mesmer possibly easily triumph over players with thousands of hours on their main or that can troll entire groups forever (yeah so can thieves but how does that help it make it less annoying? I hate those thieves too).

The stealth mechanic is really bad in this game with no real counter play to it (don’t make me laugh with the stealth trap plz) and the mesmer, who was already very strong in duels vs a majority, just received a big boost in a broken mechanic. Hence, the hate from non-mesmers…

Choppy.4183:

Cut the stealth bonus. By how much, I don’t know… maybe make it +1 or 2 seconds. Yesterday I fought a bunch of mesmers (some of them using PU) as a warrior and later ran a PU setup myself:

Fighting them was ridiculous… I was playing a warrior with about as much mobility as you can get, some control, and lots of killing power, but it didn’t matter because the mesmers could disengage incredibly easily if they were ever in any real trouble.

Running the PU mesmer was also ridiculous. I should be considered, on all accounts, just trash on my mesmer. I like it a lot, I just lack practice so my reaction time isn’t as good as it needs to be and I’m still figuring out burst options and positioning. I was in a wvw havoc and it was so facerollingly easy to get the bursts out and to apply constant pressure it was embarrassing. I also didn’t die once, even if the rest of my party wiped, because the stealth and escape are so good.

So that’s some anecdotal evidence from both sides of the equation. It shouldn’t be so easy for crappy players (me as a mes) to defeat skilled players (me as a warrior). I’m supportive of most of the buffs the mesmer got this round, but the stealth on PU is ridiculous.

I had the exact same experience. Mesmer is FAR from my main and I had to be kittening reckless even before the patch to die when I played one who has invested into a minimum of stealth. Now, it’s just a joke in WvW. No wonder no matter where I roam I invariably run into entire parties of kittening mesmers. They are everywhere ATM.

Necrotize.2974:

This will probably be a fairly divisive topic judging from what my guildmates had to say, but I’d like to know where everyone stands on Prismatic Understanding. Also a really long post, but if you’re not willing to read it I can’t really force you.

I personally think it is fine as is for a few reasons. Way back before several changes, 1 second of extra stealth really didn’t mean much(hell, thieves got that in a minor trait), but the boons were strong since they were all defensive. Then Swiftness and Might got thrown in, making it a lot less reliable kitten seconds of might when you’ve just entered 4 seconds of stealth is kinda…not useful. So adding Might and Swiftness to the mix was(IMO) a nerf. Increasing the duration to 100% was a good decision because now all the Chaos Grandmaster traits actually feel like build defining traits. It is actually a tough decision to pick one of them, which is how it should be for all trait lines. I’d much rather have tough choices to make instead of entire trait lines that are only really worthwhile if you’re going in for one specific trait. I think this is how all GM traits should be, build and playstyle defining, but not inherently more powerful than the others.

I understand a lot of people’s qualms with PU have to do with stealth. Mesmers, stealth, conditions and clones were all things that made for an annoying fight that didn’t require much risk on the mesmer’s part. This strategy was only really viable and common in WvW roaming(which is btw not a gamemode the game is balanced around) and was essentially useless in 2 of the 3 gamemodes(SPvP and PvE). Long duration stealth doesn’t help you kill your opponent, that’s why those mesmers relied on clone condition application. With the nerf to maim, this strategy is a lot less viable, especially now that burning has become king of dmg conditions and mesmers have almost no way to apply it, let alone stack it.

I’ve started using PU in SPvP as sort of an offpoint harasser and sidecapper. I can say from experience that while 100% duration is a lot, I almost never stay in stealth for that long. Staying in stealth for that long just gives your opponent time to regain cds and prepare. I use stealth for re-positioning, which the added duration is great for. If it were reverted to its previous iteration of 1 extra second and random picks from 5 boons, 2 of them being almost useless at that point, I’d probably never consider PU on tier with the other GM traits again. Giving my opponent a chance to recover and coming out of stealth with 2 stacks of might, some swiftness and maybe one of the defensive buffs really doesn’t seem worthy of a GM trait and if I really wanted boons that badly, I’d just go for Bountiful Disillusionment.

Also keep in mind that Anet seems to be moving towards more reveal access for certain classes. Engi’s lock-on, the spoiled guardian trap, ranger shout and WvW’s stealth trap are all good sources of reveal, so please don’t come to this thread just to complain about stealth. I want to hear opinions on Prismatic Understanding on MESMERS, not stealth in general and not cross class comparisons.

Anybody who has played for at least an hour in wvw and was not a mesmer will tell you this build is supremely broken with no risk at all. It is just THAT bad. At least in WvW.

I love what they did to ele. I can now easily ditch arcana for fire while still going for zerk gear in pvp, roaming, gvg or zerg with my staff and I love it.

Loboling.5293:

Hey guys and gals,

I was wondering who else is going to be crazy and try a zerker build in pvp with these changes? I’m looking forward to it, but I’m not sure how to make it work yet, I’ll have to see. But with the ability to spec 100% damage, I plan on stomping on some people (not literally stomping as that would be nearly suicide with 11k hp).

I’m thinking either a staff massive aoe damage build with frost bow and elemental storm.

Or maybe a s/f (fire/air/earth).

This is going to be a fun week. Although, I’ll probably settle into a better build once the smoke settles, but the rage will be real before they remember how to sneeze my way.

I already am and I sure will…

I don’t know if it is related but I experienced some of the weirdest kitten ever in WvW yesterday.

I was minding my own roaming business as usual and was making my way to Speldan with my FGS to resupply myself and finish the cata I dropped behind AP when, half-way between AP and Speldan, I suddenly teleported over Speldan at seemingly hundred of meters in the air… and then I fell to my death…

kitten!!!

LionChain.7694:

Please don’t remove applied fortitude and strength…I’ve spent so much time getting rank points to get these for my toons. Please please please don’t take these out!

I’ve got max lvl to all my WvW skills and I applaud of that decision to remove guard stacks. It was an atrocious decision to begin with that only give you an unfair advantage over new players for a very short amount of time anyway since every one who don’t have guard stacks feel forced to get them first.

GreenRipper.6432:

I think a progression system for WVW is extremely necessary for this game mode. Today the player WVW has no rewards for playing this mode, the drop and items that can be purchased with badge are ridiculous.
With this you do not have any more attractive for a player participate in the WVW. You have to think more on the actions they take not only in order to facilitate but to attract and retain players. For this the game lose players every day, there’s nothing to keep the interest in it.

The reward is the game. If the game is not a reward to you…

I personally agree with the changes they propose. The guard stacking was always a very bad idea.

Tera GX.8149:

I just skimmed through multiple sections of the legal stuff, and I didn’t quite interpret anything to cover WvW spying conduct. I discovered my formerly favorite commander has resorted to spying with an alternate account, and I don’t know if I’m supposed to report that or tolerate it.

That it is legal or not is pretty irrelevant to me. You don’t need to hire an entire firm of lawyers to know that doing this is seriously taking the fun away from a lot of players. You are a kitten if you spy like that period. That others do it is no reason to justify you doing it. It’s merely yet another logical fallacy to reason in those lines (2 wrongs don’t make a right) .

As for reporting your commander I’d first talk to him to try and sway him away from that practice. If he continues fire away. f I know we have ppl on my server that does this I’ll do the exact same.

Knighthonor.4061:

I dont care about the name. DragonKnight would been better but I give it a pass. My problem is TRAPS…..

We could have got more Spirits or something from Rangers, but no we get TRAPS,,, very unGuardian-like…..

Man imagine if we could summon Ghostly Knight Spirits that follow us into battle and protects us? That could have been so much cooler.

We could have got a:

*Wizard Ghost- that deals ranged damage and CC.

*Knight Ghost – that deals melee damage and provides reflection fields, taunts, and protection to allies.

*Monk Ghost – that deals ranged damage, but is converted into healing to nearby party members, and provides cleansing and Boons. (this could been our Heal skill)

with a cool Elite skill that mixes with the spiritual concept.

You already have spirit weapons that follows you around and hardly anyone think they are worth it… Why do you think spirit ghost would be any better? As long as the AI on these thing aren’t better it will still sux.

How can they expect eles to go for conjures when almost all other options are better and they keep nerfing what was barely used save for some specific context?

Aethercat.7906:

What is with all the hate/dislike for this game mode? What’s negative about it and why is it having a bad impact on people?

If you go play that game mode what bad will happen that makes you hate it so much?

It is not so much EoTM that I hate so much than what the players have made of it. It’s a farming ground not a battle field.

fadeaway.2807:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

They are also one of the squishiest classes and require a fair investment of time to learn to play properly.

This misconception has always bothered me. Elementalist has never been hard to play.

What misconception? They are, all things being equal, the squishiest and they do require a fair investment to be good with.

Beside, let’s not make the mistake, again, of lumping all builds under a profession in the same basket. Stop comparing professions and start to compare builds.

Finally, maybe for you it was easier to play ele. For me, my shatter mesmer (zerker) is a lot easier to handle without dying than my staff ele (zerker). And that, despite having thousands more hours of playing my ele than my mesmer. Might be the opposite for others but for me it’s like that.

Jana.6831:

Draknar.5748:

Well, in PvE I agree Ele is the way to go for a good player. I’ve seen plenty of bad eles that die constantly, so there’s definitely a skill to it.

Thanks – I have no clue of my ele and I usually don’t die with her, she’s zerker in pve.
I was 1 vs 1 my friend, who plays D/D cele ele far longer than me, the other day and we quit of boredom after 15 mins as neither of us died/was hurt – and I really have no clue of that class. “Faceroll and call it skill”

Try a zerker version with a staff and solo roam with it in WvW. I die regularly in WvW with my staff ele while roaming but I didn’t die a single time the whole night when I played my shatter mesmer. Not once (yeah stealth is in for a lot). And I got thousands more hours invested into my ele than in my mesmer… it all depend on what you are rolling and the context you are in. Of course a celestial d/d is awfully different!

Chaba.5410:

Rocketmist.5436:

You can’t get slept/rooted for 10+ seconds from single skills, most dazes/stuns in the game are 1-2s as they should be.

Immobilize stacking says otherwise.

Not really. Stacking means several skills piling on top of each others, not just one. Beside, immob and stab are not related at all.

Reading a lot of people’s reaction I don’t blame him at all.

Caedmon.6798:

How long is it gonna stay like this ? With the recent stabi changes,wvw fights turned into a borefest.You effectively ruined lots of builds that used to be viable in wvw,all heavy melee builds have been rendered useless,everything is range,everything is aoe bomb,everything is kite.There is no melee going on anymore,i see less and less warrs running around,and if they do…they Run bow ! Great..you pushed warriors to start using bow in wvw aswell….just like they need to do in pvp.

You destroyed every possible melee warr build being viable in zerg fights..Before these changes we had a variety of melee builds with linebackers and kiters going on around…Atm the change only favors heavy kiting,and it favors the side with more people and if you’re melee you got no place in these fights.

Honestly,im getting less and less interested being in wvw..cant run the builds i love to run,and the fights are just a kitten snoozefest picking off 1 player at a time from 1200+ range with 60 ppl vs 60ppl…My god…Please,do something about this horrid playstyle.

I honestly don’t see much difference. In any event, how is it worse than what it was before? Oh, right, you were immune to all of my cc before while now it can possibly affect you with your bazilion years and sources of stab… From my perspective they made some skills that were not relevant, relevant again. CC are supposed to, you know, crowd control some… Beside, if I can charge into the fray with a zerker staff ele a big bad war probably can manage. Just saying…

yolo swaggins.2570:

mulzi.8273:

The mindset of a player playing thief is also to blame at some level. The class seems to attract the most elite jerks in the game, and even the no so great ones have severe attitude problems (in general, not all). I attribute it to the playstyle of the thief.

When I play my thief, I’ve noticed that I play more like an jack*** than with any of my other characters. Dunno why, its a subconcious thing i guess, but on any other class i’m friendly, helpful, etc. Put me on a thief, and i’m bloodthirsty, vengeful semi-jerk who’ll chase a target all over gods creation and farm them into oblivion just for looking at me funny…

Thief’s support role is purely offensive. Do you think that has anything to do with it?

It is not only offensive. How many times was I saved by a friendly thief when on the verge of being stomped? How many time was I granted free passage in hostile territory because of a thief? Nah, it’s not that.

Some thieves I’ve met were gentlemen but way more often the ones I see and remember were behaving like total kittenes deriving their pleasure out of others misery. Many of my friends told me the trollish aspect available from that profession is what made them want to play it. It’s a troll kit given flesh.

Narcarsis.5739:

I’ve played the class for a long time, and I can honestly say D/P Panic Strike is the easiest build I’ve played in the game – not just for thief. It’s unenjoyable to play because it requires little to no thought process for how effective it can be. So when asking for a rework I don’t think a lot of top players will look at the rework in the way you want. Nerfing thief in the wrong way will result in pushing them out of the meta – but buffing them would, in my opinion, be extremely unnecessary. The class is extremely strong once you learn it and can outpreform all (most in certain comps) alternatives.

My suggestion is to keep practicing and try to find a consistent group of people to play with. This will let you see where you go wrong a lot more easily than if you were solo queuing.

Good luck,
Caed

[It was too large for one post.]

Very good post sir.

Terkov.4138:

If you just walk backwards and swing your weapon in most cases thief won’t have enough stealth time to backstab you, so he will wwaste it on facestab or just run out of stealth. SA thieves are sure annoying as hell, but backstab itself should be totally fine for anyone who played thief ever once.

Again, that is only true if you know there is a thief to begin with unless you are telling ppl that they should do it everywhere they go always… This really doesn’t help to counter a first strike from a thief you had no idea was there.

Shinoobi.1259:

Thieves aren’t hard to play. Stop making it seem like using stealth or shadow step is hard. It’s not. Stealth really was poorly implemented and now they just can’t go back. There’s no counterplay, there’s no soft counterplay against a thief who knows how to use its kit effectively. CC during revealed buff? Please. Like thieves aren’t constantly aware of that and ready to dodge during the time their actually vulnerable.

Correction. They CAN be hard to play. OTOH, some builds are ridiculously easy to get reward out of them for almost no risk at all. Now, which of these builds are running rampant in WvW I wonder… hmmm

Zarania.6235:

when you kill them through backstabs?

either its 1 backstab
or its 2
or its 3
and if you’re a guardian or necro its 4.

so whats the issue with people crying about it? its soooo annoying when they flame you for it. like im sorry* im using the skills anet created for me to use to kill you.

*http://i.imgur.com/g0MAlA8.gif

Because, depending on what you play, there is too often very little you can do to counter it. People who say you can always be on the move and use AoE are either morons or trolling.

Of course if you know there is a thief in your vicinity this changes everything even if stealth will remain kittening annoying at best for most builds. However, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too often you don’t know there is a thief in WvW until your life is well below 50% if not outright very close to 0 if player is full glass.

Unless you are a precog, a paranoiac or the kind of people who throw away AoE left or right for no apparent reasons when you move in WvW and always move like a drunk person no matter what, there really isn’t any counter to an initial strike coming from stealth you had no idea was there.

The pewpew stealth (trapper rune) longbow rangers have all my hate too btw.

remiostad.2768:

Just quite simply asking if it’s allowed with coordinated double teaming against the third opponent.

Example: You’re server “1” and is the one getting double teamed against. While one blob from server “2” is trying to take your Garri/Keep on one side drawing your attention, the other blob from server “3” comes behind. In this example, Server “2” succeeds to ram the door/cata the wall open where our server gets ready to fight, naturally. Server “3” succeeds getting their wall/door open also.

Now, from multiple observations and the fact that server “3” has higher score and is higher on leaderboards, server “2” is just aiding server “3” in getting points. At this time, We are holding the Keep/Garri as long as possible while small guild groups is caping stuff on their homeborders instead.

It is not only allowed but to be expected. However, it is sad when people whining about unfair match-ups are the ones who band together to attack the smaller and loosing server. The non-leading servers should work more often together instead to turn the tide. It would make for far more interesting match-ups.

I personally always felt they were one trick pony gimmicks. Once you get over your power trip of one shotting a motionless/unattentive squishy, you feel like doing something else. It’s more a duel thing than something useful for what I like to play. To each his own I guess…

law.9410:

I’m not trying to pass judgement, but I do think some people put their server’s victory over personal fun, which is crazy. An empty wvw dominated by one server that had a ‘victory at any cost’ mentality is pretty lame for everyone. Another misconception is that people duel for bragging rights, which for me at least isn’t true. Many duels aren’t really duels just spontaneous 1v1s where the opponent happened to be fun to fight against. The OS isn’t an option because it’s always empty. That being said, it’s wrong to be mean to someone who interrupted unless they’re purposely trolling.

As far as I’m concerned I agree with you. Putting Server above your fun IS crazy.

However, for many people the PPT game putting the importance on the server first is what is fun. What I have argued all along is about legitimacy, not fun. In short, PPT legitimacy > fights for fights legitimacy. This is the nuance that seems to have not been understood despite all I’ve said. The debate is all about what is more legitimate not what is more fun for you.

Ragnar.4257:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

At no point did I implied having fun was correlated with capping stuff. I’m talking about legitimacy here, not fun.

You’re just doing all the work for me here.

I must be dumbstruck because I fail to see your point and how it invalidate all I’ve said in this thread. Can you help me here?

Hexin.5603:

I’m not getting involved in your discussion together … just saying what relates to myself and how I play. I play for the community. We do all sorts of stuff. Including duels. Please have an argument with someone willing to join. I am not. That is why I did not quote you.

Then why reply if you did not want to get involved into the thread?

Hexin.5603:

Puck.9612:

For me the good of the server has very little to do with how many towers we are capping, the server is good when the majority of the players are having fun.

+1

How could I missed that…

You take the words I used but not the meaning and context they were used in. At no point did I implied having fun was correlated with capping stuff. I’m talking about legitimacy here, not fun. Nice straw man again ppl. Specially since I myself already said several times that fighting was more fun. But my fun is irrelevant to the point I defended.

MightyMicah.7451:

You’re asking the wrong question. Instead, ask this question: Why the heck would I care what all of these idiots think of me?

Seriously. Every professional/unique gamer got there from doing whatever the heck they wanted. They didn’t listen to all the nay sayers or the fools who can’t think outside of the box. Run what you want to run and screw the haters.

If you wanna shut them up, get good and whoop their butt. End of story.

You are never going to shut anyone up like that if they see your build as cheesy. There is no dishonor or problem to loose to a cheesy gimmick. It is expected and what makes it “cheesy” in the first place. That being said, not bothering with what others think is a very godd advice.

Slcrisis.6930:

The problem here is that no matter what build you play as a thief, you will always get “cheese” thrown at you because of the “TIEF OP LUL” bandwagon and people who just cannot accept the fact that maybe they were outplayed by a thief.

So it’s basically if you kill someone as a thief, you’re a noob cheese build thief, and if you get killed as a thief then you’re just a noob. It’s better to just politely offer a glass of whine in the face of a “cheese build” comment it’ll help them take it down better.

Let’s try something different since you avoid the issue. Are there thief builds you consider cheesy?

godmoney.6025:

Cheese is whatever you used to win it appears, even if you ran a sub-optimal build (Im running 6/6/2/0/0 d/d glassy glass) . Last night an enemy S/D thief running perma-evade 2/0/0/6/6 with signet of agility fought me. Like most bad s/d thieves he hit me once or twice then continues to evade and roll around for about 5 seconds. So I just waited for him to blow all of his endurance then I BV, C&D and backstab him dead. Countless angry whispers ensued, like ‘OMG cheesy scrub D/D L2P’

Receiving messages like that feels like a double win for me!

Nah. complaining about loosing has nothing to do with a build being cheesy or you being too good or bad.

You have people who are extremely good and successful with high risk/reward build and players who are as good and successful while running a cheesy gimick.

Your build is cheesy if with little training you get a lot of success out of it even with players who have spent a lot more time on their character than you did on that cheesy construct.

If you see a build that you feel your grandmother could play and win vs you it probably smell cheese.

Puck.9612:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Puck.9612:

aspirine.6852:

Puck.9612:

aspirine.6852:

Puck.9612:

If you decide to repeatedly interrupt players that are dueling after it has been made clear they are dueling, you should expect those players to follow you around and ruin your fun as well. Get used to having gates tapped early, areas being siege locked by balista sites, etc.

Not really, because in the end these duelers are egotistical people. They dont care about other people playing the wvw game.

My group and I stayed up late one night and ended up flipping about half a bl, while holding all of that we started running duels with the 2 opposing servers night crews. Everyone was hanging out having a good time, we were still holding the highest PPT without having to chase the defenders around the map back capping each other.

Another random guild from our server decided it would be funny to troll our duels. We told them we were dueling and asked them to stop but they gave us the same crappy attitude a lot of the people in this thread have, “WvW isn’t about fighting, blah blah blah.”

We told the players from the other server to go ahead and kill them and we all had a good laugh. Instead of trying to cap stuff on their own they spent about 45 minutes trying to troll us and repeatedly dying before giving up. Of course at that point we were pretty kittened so we started following them around while still in a party with players from the other servers and dropping bali sites over their ram sites. Any time they tried taking anything they ended up getting wiped and everyone would laugh spam them.

If you are worried about PPT then spend your time getting a higher PPT. You can’t always tell when someone is dueling and accidents will happen, but when you know players are dueling and decide to waste time trolling them all you are doing is being a kitten and creating bad blood between groups for your own server.

But what you are saying now is completly different. With full map ques and still doing duels is kinda weird in my opinion. If you guys get bored and decided to start duels in the late evening when almost none is around who could be against that type dueling?

Good question. Unfortunately the answer is a lot of people.

A lot based on what?

Based on the amount of people that interrupt duels when there is no reason to, and the amount of people in this thread making posts like this

Duellers should be banned, like they are in other games.

I make it a mission when I see a duel going down to disrupt that duel. The abuse I get is priceless.

There are for sure but, overall, I think most people, myself included, don’t have a problem with duelers so much as with what often goes with it in WvW including the attitude many arbor toward PPTers. Dueling in itself is not a problem.

The problem in this particular issue is we have 2 populations that want respect appearing to be mutually exclusive. At least from their POV. On one side if you duel for dueling in WvW you don’t respect the server’s effort, while OTOH if you interrupt duels for the shake of it you show no respect for the players involved in the duel.

It being a server context and being coherent with my stance, the greater sin has to be lacking respect to the server BUT not everyone is as rigid in that regards that dueling is automatically disrespectful no matter what. As long as people are reasonable and nice, the huge majority will be able to coexist without much problems.

Puck.9612:

aspirine.6852:

Puck.9612:

aspirine.6852:

Puck.9612:

If you decide to repeatedly interrupt players that are dueling after it has been made clear they are dueling, you should expect those players to follow you around and ruin your fun as well. Get used to having gates tapped early, areas being siege locked by balista sites, etc.

Not really, because in the end these duelers are egotistical people. They dont care about other people playing the wvw game.

My group and I stayed up late one night and ended up flipping about half a bl, while holding all of that we started running duels with the 2 opposing servers night crews. Everyone was hanging out having a good time, we were still holding the highest PPT without having to chase the defenders around the map back capping each other.

Another random guild from our server decided it would be funny to troll our duels. We told them we were dueling and asked them to stop but they gave us the same crappy attitude a lot of the people in this thread have, “WvW isn’t about fighting, blah blah blah.”

We told the players from the other server to go ahead and kill them and we all had a good laugh. Instead of trying to cap stuff on their own they spent about 45 minutes trying to troll us and repeatedly dying before giving up. Of course at that point we were pretty kittened so we started following them around while still in a party with players from the other servers and dropping bali sites over their ram sites. Any time they tried taking anything they ended up getting wiped and everyone would laugh spam them.

If you are worried about PPT then spend your time getting a higher PPT. You can’t always tell when someone is dueling and accidents will happen, but when you know players are dueling and decide to waste time trolling them all you are doing is being a kitten and creating bad blood between groups for your own server.

But what you are saying now is completly different. With full map ques and still doing duels is kinda weird in my opinion. If you guys get bored and decided to start duels in the late evening when almost none is around who could be against that type dueling?

Good question. Unfortunately the answer is a lot of people.

A lot based on what?

ArchonWing.9480:

Sometimes I make the mistake of crashing a duel because it wasn’t that obvious. Here’s the typical interaction:

“We’re dueling. Could you stop attacking”
“Ah, okay”

And then I go off to do something else, and yes, I will attack anything that approaches the nearest objective. No need to start trouble.

It’s not that big of a deal. The guy is no threat and preoccupied, and I have better use of my time.

TyPin.9860:

@zinkz and Sirbeaumerdier:
As far as I can see it Sirbeaumerdier makes actually more sense. I get the feeling zinkz is arguing a straw man instead of Sirbeaumerdier’s actual position.

Nope, the strawman is with Sirbeaumerdier. Pretty much any post that “snip” quotes and makes the opposing argument a generality is. It’s also a fallacy fallacy. :p (argument by fallacy)

But at least he has a point.

I’ll give you that point about my sniping, but that is about it. At this point people who argue honestly understand my POV and those who won’t hear anything will, well, not ever consider changing their mind ever.

Cya later folks… I’ll be happy to duel those who want it but know that the server comes first and my duel second. Not because I don’t prefer fights, I do, but because it’s coherent and respectful to the context while my dueling is not.

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Juts for fun, count how many ad-hominen you have included in your one post… this is exactly why it’s a waste of time to argue with you.

Just for fun, the hypocrisy is strong from someone who likes to call people “slow”.

Don’t tell me, you have no idea what an ad-hominem is?

TyPin.9860:

@Sirbeaumerdier:
Are you German? Judging from ur name and your stance on WvW I think you might^^ Not implying that this is bad or good. But as I have noticed: German players are way more in line with the idea of organized server vs server warfare. It always amazes me, how many ppl care for dollies, upgrades and strategic play when faced against a German server.

I’m not even european. :P But it’s purely logical to me.

I don’t say I actually play like a devoted zealot at all, but I can admire the players you describe for the serious they invest and the respect they show. They place the server above the guild or the individual. Why do I, a very individualistic guy like me, think it’s better to place the server above the individual (Ayn Rand bots go away)? Because the context and the success lies at the server level.

zinkz.7045:

snip

Juts for fun, count how many ad-hominen you have included in your one post… this is exactly why it’s a waste of time to argue with you.

Now for the rest of the forum who may argue that WvW offers many ways toward an end I totally agree with you all. Does that mean all ways are equally valid? Nope, not even close in a similar way it would not be equally valid to go from A to B with a car using roads vs going in a straight line no matter if on the road or not.

The problem currently is that many person excuse ANY ways of playing in WvW because they either argue one of two things:

1) There is no goal in WvW it’s a pure sand box.

OR

2) The goal is irrelevant since it’s broken (insert coverage and pop imbalance bla-bla).

The #1 stance above is pure BS even if there does seem to have a lot of freedom in thej way you can contribute. You have servers vs servers and a clear metric that determine winners. There is a clear inherent goal unless you are mentally constipated or in complete denial.

Stance #2 is already way better, if only because it can see the obvious goal, but ultimately still a fail when you seek to argue fights > PPT or duel respect is as important (or more) as teammate respect (and I will agree with all who say fights are more fun btw but that changes nothing since my preferences are irrelevant here). That the game has inherent flaws doesn’t change how it works nor alter it’s goal. If you don’t like it don’t ruin the fun of those who still love what they are left to play with. It’s a team setting, act like it. Sure you can say kitten this. However, successfully arguing your duel respect over your teammate respect and server goal in that context is a lost cause.

zinkz.7045:

LOL, repeating it like a mantra doesn’t alter that it has no relevance to what I wrote, if I decide to go off and do something else instead of assisting the guy who interrupted my 1v1, our server might score more points, it might score less, it might score the same, I might be the person to contest the circle and save a keep, and so on, your “argument” is irrelevant.

How can it have no relevance on your stance? Please explain it to me. The setting is team based, not individualistic. Let’s take a look at your stance…

you said: “you may think the “moral” thing to do is help him, I’d say he made his own bed when he interrupted the 1v1 rather than doing the moral thing of letting it finish”

So in short, we have helping a teammate vs respecting a possible duel.

I repeat, not because it’s a mantra or it will make it more or less valid but because you apparently are slow to get it, this is a team game context asking you to score points and preventing your opponent to do the same. As opposed to what you seem to allude, the context is very in understanding why the act of helping is more valid than the act of respecting a possible duel.

If you do a duel out of necessity because you are 2 players competing over an objective, seeing another player help you will never be a problem. Just ask yourself if your pal interrupting a duel goes against the spirit of the game being a team efforts seeking to score points? This is a rhetorical question of course since the obvious answer is not even a little.

OTOH, if your pal decide to respect your possible duel (not always obvious at all and you can’t always be in a position to communicate) is he showing he has the server’s best interest at heart considering the goal of that game? Nope. He places your interests before those of the server. It’s nice of him to you and it might not change a kitten thing in the end but that changes nothing to the argument.

The end result is not what matters in this philosophical argument we have. The intent is. Only you know if you duel because you are 2 players competing over a resource or if you do so in spite of the game. Yes, your not caring at all for the game may help the server as a side effect for some reasons you couldn’t care or be bothered with while someone who do care can end-up not helping the server (best example is to order upgrades at the wrong moment. The intent is noble, the result can be catastrophic). The difference lies in the intent and the good will of the players. Can we prove it? No and we can’t stop people from doing what the hell they want anyway. However, in a philosophical joust about fight > PPT (remember the thread), your stance is just way weaker than mine is the whole point because [insert what you call my mantra].

You haven’t presented any evidence, PPT has nothing to do with it, you seem obsessed with PPT and try to make any thread into a “PPT issue”.

This is why people go to the rules, it is pointless arguing with people like you, I’d alos add that you seem to have a severely limited understanding of game design if you think Anet made WvW just for PPT obsessives.

Of course I haven’t presented why helping your pal vs respecting your duels has more legitimacy, you said so!! Anet has pitted servers against servers and uses points as a metric to decide who is the winner but “I severely don’t understand the game design” because, again, you say so…

Also, I’m not PPT obsessive one bit. I’m, however, very tenacious when I argue. You just can’t seem to read what I say (remember, I also duel) and you kinda force me to repeat myself to no end because you can’t accept what I say.

Seriously, I’m done…

zinkz.7045:

You haven’t made an argument, nothing you have written has any relevance to the point I quoted and the “morality” of letting a guy that interrupts a 1v1 die, you may think the “moral” thing to do is help him, I’d say he made his own bed when he interrupted the 1v1 rather than doing the moral thing of letting it finish, and that if he wants to interrupt my fun then he should not expect any help.

I’m sorry but for you to be in any position to say this you have to ignore the argument you pretend has no value about WvW being a server (team) context. Sadly, you are in no such position and WvW still is a server game that is won by people working in many different fashion to directly or indirectly score as much point as possible at each tick. Of course if we ignore the argument you say is worth nothing what you say has a lot more value…

Hence why people go to the rules, we are never going to agree on what is “moral” as we have different views of the game and it is very subjective, so all we can agree on is that it is not against the rules.

We don’t have to agree and it won’t make your stance any stronger by saying that. Your view of a game is only important up to a point. Wiggle as much as you want, it will still remain a server game won with PPT. When you stop fighting that evidence, it becomes a lot harder to sell the “my subjectivity is just as good as yours” line. It’s pretty much like saying there is no argument when there actually is one that you refuse to acknowledge. Closing your eyes won’t save you from a fist flying toward your face…

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Saying something is subjective is in no way a valid argument to counter the idea proposed when I say ppl who often refer to “laws” or “lack of rules” very often know why they go for that card. In other words, they know it’s not really a defensible position but they are not ready to accept the opposing side argument so they fall back on rules or lack of rules rather than admit they are in their wrong.

They aren’t “wrong”, yet again you seem to be under this delusion that your subjective opinion on what is “valid” in WvW, is fact and therefore “true”, which I guess may be a reason why people go to the rules, because you can trade subjective opinions all day long, and it means nothing in the end, and it gets tedious trading opinions with someone who thinks their opinion is “fact”.

If you actually care to read what I wrote I say my stance is better than yours because the arguments supporting it are better. Again, simply stating something is subjective is not a valid argument. Not all arguments, or opinions for that matter, are equally good.

The main fact my argument rest upon is that WvW is a Server based game. If you disagree with this let’s hear your argument… I’ll be waiting… Otherwise, good luck to you arguing your stance is more legitimate.