Guild Wars 2

Can you imagine how OP Mesmers will be when all condition caps are released? 100+ stacks of Confusion will wreck melee trains. I sense Melandru Runes are gonna be spiking in value in the days to come.

Viralseed.9362:

I However, I feel required to spend time mastering Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, Artificer, and Jeweler just to have access to four exclusive stat combinations.

I can answer your question by asking one of my own: Why is Gift of Exploration an exclusive reward for those who complete 100% of their map?

Wanze.8410:

Doggie.3184:

Wanze.8410:

Doggie.3184:

Wanze.8410:

Doggie.3184:

I still have 2 stacks of Evon buttons in mint condition. Evon4lyfe

at 6-8g per button, thats a nice investment.
Unfortunately you will have a hard time to sell them all.

They are account bound doe.

I beg to differ.

https://www.gw2tp.com/item/43957-evon-gnashblade-representation-button

Your differ begging doesn’t matter because mine are account bound.

Well mine arent. You might want to drag them out of your bank into your bags. IF that doesnt help to remove the account bound, try buying an unbound button from the tp and add them to a stack of 249 of yours that are bound.

You have 19 Kasmeers? Evon approves!

eduardo.1436:

Mouse.3608:

Team Hero-Tron, 2015

I believe in hero-tron!

Sadly he is Evon’s spy sooooooooo go gnashblade! even though I still also support Kiel

He’ll forever be known as “Hobo-tron” to me. But I digress, in-game dialogue confirms that Hobo-tron is Evon’s son. While Hobo-tron tries to deny it, when he searches his feelings, he knows it to be true.

When Evon is elected to the Captain’s Council, Hobo-tron can be his Vice-Captain.

So what you’re advocating for is a paid VIP system for players? A most excellent idea!

punkinkatt.4823:

In that case, I nominate Almorra Soulkeeper, if she’d be so gracious as to accept the nomination!

Sorry, according to the rules, write-in candidates are not allowed in Captain’s Council elections. If Almorra wants in, she will have to beat Evon in a charr primary.

As for the humans, I’ve heard rumors about the Terminate Ellen Already (TEA) Party and their grassroots efforts to put another person on the ballot.

No, we honor Lion’s Arch by removing Kiel. In real life, if a politician isn’t up to par, the citizens can call and vote for a recall. Anet should hold a Recall Election to see if enough players support her removal. At the same time, it allows us to cast our votes for a new candidate.

The time has come for a new direction. Anet, let us vote! May the best charr win!

shaman.1938:

~~~ snip ~~~

I don’t have access to the Flamekissed armor, but you do. You paid Gems for it, I didn’t. So the way I see it, you paid money to unlock something awesome looking, thus you got your money’s worth. The only time you should feel “short changed” is if Anet gave me access to the skin without having to buy it. Other than that, enjoy one of the best looking skins in the game.

Today, the great Evon Gnashblade has released some new and past items in the Gem Store. You can find details here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/lions-arch-commemorative-sale/

One thing that stands out is the truth that Evon speaks of:

Evon Gnashblade

We here at the Black Lion Trading Company would like to honor the memory of Lion’s Arch after Ellen Kiel’s tragic failure to protect it from the dastardly Scarlet Briar.

At this time, #TeamGnashblade would like to call for the removal of Ellen Kiel from the Captain’s Council. LA needs a real hero, one that will serve and represent the citizens well.

I feel the love! And FYI – I’m as fancy as they come!

Ohoni.6057:

If the devs decided to classify the TP as an exploit then it would be no less of an exploit. Aside from that, the difference is negligable.

In the wise words of John Smith -

John Smith.4610:

Wow…

…

Ohoni.6057:

And for the thousandth time, I absolutely reject your idea that TP profits are different than game-distributed rewards because they come from other players rather than from the aether. I get that there is some difference there, but within the context of discussion it’s a distinction that does not matter. It’s like if you have two pipes pouring sludge into a river, and one comes from a factory, and one comes from some magical hole in space that nobody can explain, ok, very different sources, but what matters is the sludge pouring into the river, and ideally both sources could be plugged up.

You reject the reality of the situation, because you’re completely biased against the TP’s existence. When we asked you about the impact of your suggestions to the economy, you had this to say:

Ohoni.6057:

And yes, I don’t care about the impact.

TP players can make a lot of money. You’ve openly stated that you have no desire to make money on the TP. Learning the basics of trading doesn’t take much effort, but being good at it does. Someone makes a lot of money, and you complain that it isn’t fair. You can’t eat your cake and have it too. You choose not to use the TP to make money, and turn around to complain that someone else did in your place.

A real world analogy would be if you saw $50 on the ground, and you just stare at it, refusing to touch it. Another person comes along 5 minutes later and picks up the $50, and you complain that it isn’t fair he’s $50 richer.

In game example – In the case of Silk, an opportunity presents itself to you. You can buy three stacks of Silk for 1 Silver each from a friend. You can then keep it, or resell on the Trading Post. If you have absolutely no use for it, and don’t want to keep it, you’ll sell it on the TP. Someone else is willing to pay 2.2 Silver for each.

There’s a willingness on the part of the buyer to pay 2.2 Silver per Silk. There’s a willingness on your part to get rid of the Silk. This is how the TP works. Existing money is exchanged between the two players, and 15% is destroyed. This is not reward created by the game. This is profit.

phys.7689:

the tp players dont correct mistakes, what he means is if a mistake is made, AND then fixed, the market will quickly adapt to the new equilibrium.

As for his silk price, its fine in a vacuum, but its not fine withing the design of ascended.
if clothcraft didnt require 10800 silk scraps, its cost of 2-3 silver would be fine. (even though it means the costs of a whole bunch of other items are relatively wrong)

This thread is more about the disparities of silk aquisition as its related to crafting ascended armor.

The way I see it, there’s different issues at play.

• Silk aquisition
• Silk requirements for Ascended gear
• Silk price

The first isn’t much of an issue, honestly. There are many ways to farm Silk. I can get tons from WvWing (Discarded Garments). I can MF Karma armors and salvage. Or I can just buy them outright from the TP.

Second issue is something that I can see being a problem. Sure a lot of Silk is required for crafting Ascended gear, everyone is in agreement here. BUT, I see it as an intentional decision by Anet to create volatility.

The third issue is price. The market currently has each at 2.5 Silver. One of the reasons why it’s at this level is because there are many players willing to pay this price. Compared to prices for Linen (5 Silver), and Silk is a deal. Now if players felt that this was overpriced, Silk scraps would naturally drop, as TP players would keep lowering prices until a new equilibrium is found. In this scenario, it would require ALL players to agree that it’s overpriced. If there’s even 0.1% of the player population who demands Silk that doesn’t see the price as a problem, they’ll continue to buy at the current levels, and TP players will keep selling it to them. Only when these Silk buying players had their fill, will prices then start to drop, as no one would be buying anymore.

250 Gems per try? You means GW2-China has a Gachapon? I would love it if we got something like that here.

I’ll just leave this little tidbit here to help everyone:

John Smith.4610:

We design in some volatility and some stability (silk wasn’t an accident ). We use our past experience, mixed with data to make predictions of what will happen given our choices. We then select outcomes that match whatever goals we have and use the data/experience to match those outcomes. We’ve gotten surprisingly good at this, but if we do make a mistake, the robustness of the player market helps smooth any bumps. For example, at one point a long time ago, we had an ecto exploit with snowflakes. This exploit produced a decent amount of ectos and put them into the market, but the market absorbed that and return to normal in a very short period of time.

As for mistakes, it seems that if any are made, TP players help correct them.

Bernie.8674:

If I could dump the million karma into silk the way I can into obsidian shards we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

There exists a way to do this, but it’s not the most efficient way to use your Karma.

Bernie.8674:

I don’t begrudge anyone their success in the virtual market. However, I take exception to the idea that every player in the game would be expected to do this in order to acquire their silk in a timely manner.

Here’s where you problem lies. Anet never made any mention of a required timeframe in which to get your Ascended gear. This BiS gear was meant as a long term goal. Your own desire to get it faster does not translate into a game wide problem.

Bernie.8674:

This is just plain wrong. Not everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit. Profit always comes at someone else’s expense. When one player profits another loses. In fact, there’s a 15% net loss to every transaction. That’s the way the system works.

A player doesn’t “lose” when they buy something from Wanze. They paid money to get something they wanted. And the 15% tax is a Gold Sink. It’s up to the TP player to price their items smartly to offset the sink. Works the same way in the real world.

And by the way, there are no gates to becoming a TP player. Anyone can do so with the proper understanding of what to buy, when to buy, and how much to sell for.

Bernie.8674:

The manifesto itself promised that we wouldn’t have to do that, and Colin reiterated that promise just last month.

Again, you’re misunderstanding the quote from Colin. He promised no grind for BiS items, and there isn’t any. You have yet to show me where it states that the game “forces” you to get Ascended weapons and/or armor. You’re forcing yourself, because you desire it. I do the same. And when that happens, we the players create the grind. And we the players can’t complain over something we did to ourselves.

Ohoni.6057:

And that is true, nobody is saying that it isn’t. The problem is that it’s a part of Tyria that is grossly out of balance with the other parts.

For another example of this, do a search for “Destiny loot cave.” When one part of a game is vastly more rewarding than any other part, that is a balance issue, and it should be corrected. Nobody is arguing that the TP should be removed, or that you shouldn’t be able to make money off of it, but the money you make off the TP should not have the potential to be vastly higher than through any other legitimate ingame means, any more than any one class should provide a hundred times more DPS than any other class without any trade-offs.

If the TP is to be considered “as much a part of Tyria as anything else,” then it needs to be held accountable to the same standards of balance.

You just compared an Apple to yet another Skateboard. The Destiny Loot cave was a Exploit. Also, everything you gained there was newly generated loot that didn’t exist in the game before. TP players are not exploiters or cheaters. They are knowledgeable players who take advantage of other players’ willingness to pay for goods they sell. By your own arguments, the government should balance Apple’s (the company) and Microsoft’s profits with that of my cousin’s start up App company.

Ohoni.6057:

This statement is utter nonsense.

It actually makes perfect sense when you don’t cut out the rest of my quote.

Ohoni.6057:

“And again, none of that “TP profits aren’t a reward because they come from other players” nonsense. If it’s something that you gain that you did not have in your pocket before, then it is a reward to you, regardless of the source.”

This is where you don’t understand the fundamental difference between Rewards and Profits. Newly generated currency in any MMO, if left unchecked, will destroy economies. Currency would be devalued to the point where we’d be paying 50 Gold for 1 Powerful Vial of Blood. Profits from the TP are limited to existing currency in circulation, and the competition in the marketplace. Profits don’t ruin economies, as the TP players are doing a service to the entire population. They

• provide items that other players desire
• help bring prices to equilibrium through competition
• buy goods off of other players, thus spreading the wealth

Now if the game only had 1,000 players, then I’ll admit that a few rich players could control markets. But there are hundreds of thousands of players constantly playing, earning coin through rewards in game, and constantly buying and selling goods online 24/7. The market is so dynamic, that it’s virtually impossible for a small few, or a guild of players to control the market. The Black Lion Trading Company balances itself via player interaction, as it’s not broken.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

Anet makes economic mistakes all the time. Nobody is omniscient

But with what some players see as a mistake, Anet sees as “Working as intended”.

Remember, there’s a reason behind ever decision made in terms of the economy. John doesn’t have the ultimate power to decide on the fate of each item, and the players’ happiness. There are goals lined out by upper management, and John’s job is to make sure that the decisions are implemented properly so as the end result doesn’t deviate from their estimated figures.

The only mistake that I know of John admitting to was with the sheer amount of Bloodstone Dust players farmed. Something about it being 10 digits more than what he expected.

Celtic Lady.3729:

The silk discussion is interesting, no doubt, but it’s amusing how many people are pretending to know anything about either economics in general or this game’s economics in particular. It’s fairly easy to tell which is which, though.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, as you probably don’t know who we are from the days of the Black Lion Trading forums. We’ve been debating (and defending) this game’s economy for years now. 99.9% of the time, we fall in line with John’s thinking, and direction of where he takes the game. There’s that rare 0.1% time when I didn’t agree with something. But it made me a lot of Gold, so I didn’t want to push the subject.

The same threads pop up constantly, with themes of “X, Y, and Z items are overpriced”. Some players want cheaper prices because they desire the item in question, and dislike the costs. Some players understand how the economy works, and ask for minor adjustments (like making Silk 3/1 -> 2/1 for Bolts) to make things more fair. But as far as overall prices are concerned for this thread, the underlying cause is Supply and Demand. Due to the artificial need more more Silk, Demand is high, and thus players are willing to pay more per Silk scrap. This leads to a naturally occurring rise in prices.

Celtic Lady.3729:

It isn’t a concern of mine and your quote is completely irrelevant to my point.

It’s very relevant. See your quote:

Celtic Lady.3729:

This kind of TP trading is simply not accessible to most players playing the game. If it was, we’d be seeing a far different economy than we now do.

If more players took the time to learn basic skills of Buying low and Selling high, while being aware of the breakeven/profit points, competition will naturally force prices downwards. To get to Wanze’s level is something else though.

Ohoni.6057:

This is an adventure RPG, not a stock market simulator. Learning to use the TP should not be considered an essential skill for the average player to learn if he wants to make a reasonable income. If I really wanted to become a market fat-cat, I likely could, but that is not an activity that I have any interest in.

John has stated that the Trading Post is very much a part of Tyria as anything else. It’s not a required skill to play the TP, nor is it required to be skilled enough to be in the Top 10 of PvPers. You have the choice to do so, and as you’ve said, you have no interest in it. Therefore you’ve basically given up all rights to complain. It’s like saying that you could become a pilot, but you don’t want to, then go on to complain that pilots make a pretty high salary.

Ohoni.6057:

All I want is for the rewards available to those who do enjoy TP-play to be more in line with the rewards available through other activities.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to make money off the TP, but the money that you earn should be comparable to the amount that a player would earn through normal PvE gameplay on a “per hour of ingame time” and a “per day/week/month of out of game time” level.

And again, none of that “TP profits aren’t a reward because they come from other players” nonsense. If it’s something that you gain that you did not have in your pocket before, then it is a reward to you, regardless of the source.

/sigh

TP profits are not the same as rewards. One is newly generated coin that never existed in the game before. Profits are the exchange of existing coin between players, with 15% being deleted from the game forever. Your whole argument here is flawed because you’re comparing an Apple to a Skateboard. They are not the same.

Celtic Lady.3729:

The number of people making 1000s of gold a day trading on the TP is likely comparable to the number of people in the current sPvP world competition. This kind of TP trading is simply not accessible to most players playing the game. If it was, we’d be seeing a far different economy than we now do.

Here’s a quote that should address your concern:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

From a psychological standpoint – The difference here is that being a TP player is much more in reach to nearly everyone, while being an expert PvPer is not. Because everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit, but don’t make the efforts to do so, they’re really angry at themselves. This anger then manifests outward to the very people they wish to emulate. These people need to take a step back, and focus that negative energy into a positive attempt to learn Wanze’s skills. Learn how to buy low, sell high, and understand breakeven price points so they, too, can make money on the TP.

NOTE – Profit on the TP is finite. Players currently profiting only do so because there’s limited competitions. The more players who enter the competitive TP market will diminish the potential gains for everyone. If you truly want to “fight the system”, the best way is to join the very system you claim to hate. But as the saying goes, more competition is healthy, and will benefit the players who just buy to gear themselves.

Bernie.8674:

I do mind having to grind for BiS gear in a game that marketed itself as not requiring a grind for BiS gear.

You’re in luck. GW2 is a game that’s designed without a required grind. See Colin’s quote recently:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again.

Anet gives us stuff to do. Getting BiS gear is a privilege, meaning you’ve earned it once you get it. No one is Entitled or forced to get BiS, nor is there a timeframe in which one must get it, thus there is no grind.

Ohoni.6057:

Agreed. Highlighting play like Wanze’s helps no one. If he wants to give an example of “the system working,” he should try to achieve the same results, while accessing the TP interface to sell ONLY items that his own character looted from the world, and to buy ONLY items that he himself intends to consume/equip. See how long it takes him then.

I’d like address this. What you’re doing is highlighting the problem that exists in this game, and many others. People are jealous of success, and look for ways to justify calling TP players terms like “exploiting”, “manipulators”, or “cheaters”. Wanze, Vol, and other expert players understand the Demand of certain items, and in turn sells them for a profit to others who are willing to pay their prices. What about other players of skill? Yes, we can all be jealous of the SPvP Champions. Their game play is above and beyond what many of us are capable of. But I’ve yet to see anyone call them “cheaters” for knowing how to coordinate map strategies, and team compositions to be the most effective group.

From a psychological standpoint – The difference here is that being a TP player is much more in reach to nearly everyone, while being an expert PvPer is not. Because everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit, but don’t make the efforts to do so, they’re really angry at themselves. This anger then manifests outward to the very people they wish to emulate. These people need to take a step back, and focus that negative energy into a positive attempt to learn Wanze’s skills. Learn how to buy low, sell high, and understand breakeven price points so they, too, can make money on the TP.

NOTE – Profit on the TP is finite. Players currently profiting only do so because there’s limited competitions. The more players who enter the competitive TP market will diminish the potential gains for everyone. If you truly want to “fight the system”, the best way is to join the very system you claim to hate. But as the saying goes, more competition is healthy, and will benefit the players who just buy to gear themselves.

Logging in now to buy all the mini Kasmeers.

MatthewMedina.5419:

Call it red tape. Kiel is doing her darndest to devote spending to infrastructure, but the Captain’s Council keep talking in circles about defense spending and tax reform.

If Evon won, not only would we have had Lion’s Arch rebuilt, but we’d also have tax reform, universal health care, and racial marriage equality.

Kiel should definitely stop writing threatening letters to Mordremoth, and instead focus on helping the immigrants to LA get a fair shake.

Ohoni.6057:

What I said is that they should give us what we want, for no other reason than that we want it, unless they have a compelling reason not to.

I think this is the pure definition of Entitlement. “Give us what we want because we want it” is not a valid reason onto itself. Just like saying “Rich players should be taxed to balance them with how much Gold I have in my bank”, or “Make Precursors cheaper so that I can afford them easier”.

Right now, the Silk market is not broken. The economy is not broken. The only imbalance that exists is player skill. Some players know how to farm smarter and faster, and some players know how to efficiently profit on the open market. Asking Anet to simplify things to make you happy results in other players getting punished for being good at what they do.

Should the government punish Bill Gates and Steve Jobs for being innovators? Should the NFL punish Marshawn Lynch for being a good running back? And should Anet punish Wanze for making 200 Gold off of players who willingly buy his Silk?

Ohoni.6057:

Because we want it. That’s a compelling reason. Now there needs to be a reason to not give us what we want. In game design, everything is about “what do the players want,” and “can we feasibly give it to them?”

If Anet gave players everything that they wanted, the game would last one week. We’d all have 50k Gold, full Ascended armor, and every Legendary weapon upon purchase of the game.

That is why Anet doesn’t give in to each and every demand from players. They know better than that. So from a business standpoint, give them a compelling reason to listen to what you have to suggest, but make sure it’s also a suggestion that doesn’t ruin the game.

phys.7689:

You are missing the point. Its not about tp earning or what should give more. Its just math
A + B +C + d = enough gold for ascended

If a is 1
B is 3
C is 20
D is 480

A and b are not worth mentioning in the how I got ascended money equation.
You can mention C, but its still pretty much not signifigant

If some one wants to know how to get gold for ascended d is the only thing that really matters

You’re skipping the fact that there’s another equation.

(A + C)B = Ascended gear

Where

A = playing the game to get material drops
B = time to play the game to acquire the drops
C = coin earned from playing the game

Edit – reformulated the equation

phys.7689:

Nah just math.
If certain variables contribute comparatively little of his earnings, they don’t really illustrate how you don’t have to grind content to get to do things in a timely fashion.

Ie if doing story mode contributed 1/100th of his earnings its not really worth mentioning in the equation of how I was able to by ascended in a decent time frame

You can’t compare rewards earned from your Personal Story, with profits made off of the TP. We’ve been over this before. One is newly generated coin introduced to the game, while the other is the movement of existing coin between players, and removes 15% out of the game as tax.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?

You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.

I just bought a new account during the sale last week. I made a new toon, popped some exp boosters and played for about 2 hours, did the behemoth, some eotm and events until i had 5 gold in my wallet. since then I retired that character to the trading post.

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.

Granted, this avenue might not be suited for everyone but its still there but if the possibility is there, you cant say its required to kill the same creatures over and over again to get enough silk for your ascended gear in under a year.

On the topic of grind

Eotm is one of the best farms in the game.
Trading TP is the best earning in the game by far, of you know how to do it.

Point is yeah, grinding one content over and over is the best realistic option for getting gear in a timely fashion.

And that’s why the game is grindy, because the feasible way to achieve bis is to grind, as you showed us.

But i wasnt grinding only one content.

I did personal story, eotm, behemoth and other pve events and traded on the tp and I only played about 8 hours so far, yet you call it a grind. Why?

The question is what activities were responsible for what earning.

I know where you’re going with this, and I respectfully ask that you not turn this into a “TP players are evil” thread.

phys.7689:

On the topic of grind

Eotm is one of the best farms in the game.
Trading TP is the best earning in the game by far, of you know how to do it.

Point is yeah, grinding one content over and over is the best realistic option for getting gear in a timely fashion.

And that’s why the game is grindy, because the feasible way to achieve bis is to grind, as you showed us.

Anet never said there wouldn’t be any grind, ever. They only said that it wouldn’t be required. BiS gear is available for all players to get, if you’re willing to put in the efforts to get them.

Doesn’t take much effort to get Masterwork or Rare gear, if Exotic or Ascended gear is too out of your reach.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand?

Where does it say that Anet is requiring you to do anything of the sort? What it all comes down to is you’re trying to push your own personal needs and desires onto the rest of the player base, and making the argument that “grind” is being required. So I challenge you to prove you actually need to get Silk. Prove you need to have Ascended gear.

I repeat myself – I don’t doubt that you feel that what you’re doing is grinding for gear. But I will keep reminding you that you’re misplacing your own needs for what’s actually required in this game. The day that Anet requires all players to be decked out in full Ascended gear is when you’ll be correct in your allegations that Anet didn’t follow their own Manifesto.

/sigh

Let me post a quote from Colin:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again.

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

The only thing the game requires you to do, in terms of story, is complete the prerequisite minimums before the next storyline is unlocked (i.e. Be level 10 for this, level 20 for that). THAT is the only thing Anet requires in this game. Everything else in the game is provided to you, and you make the choice to play them. Heck, Anet wants you to play them. However, if you don’t, it’s ok. Find your own fun.

So you need 1,700 Silk? Ok, your choice to need that. Play the game and gather the materials from drop salvages, or buy them on the TP. Grind to your heart’s content. Anet lets you play this game how you want to play. But because you decided to grind for these items, you can’t complain about it.

Edit – Reposting my doctor analogy: It’s like going to a doctor, and him forcing you to eat three apples a day, everyday, for a year or you die. That’s a grind. But if the doctor just recommends eating three apples a day, everyday, for a year, you can make the choice to do so or not. It makes you healthier, but it won’t kill you to skip a day here and there.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

So again, is there a grind being forced on you to complete your Personal Story, or Living World arcs? The answer is no. Anet kept their word since the days of the Manifesto.

This thread is about the price of silk. What does personal story or living world have to do with it? ArenaNet’s word in the manifesto was that you wouldn’t be grinding for BiS gear and that you wouldn’t be waiting to have fun. The reality is that you either have to grind for BiS gear or wait to have fun. Either choice is in conflict with ArenaNet’s word.

It’s connected. Price of Silk is due to Supply and Demand. Players who Demand it are also the ones who feel this game is a “grind”, because they “need” to have Ascended gear.

Again, you keep mixing your own definition of what a grind is, and what Anet sees as a grind. You aren’t required to kill the same thing over and over to advance the game and/or have fun. Anet doesn’t require a grind. But that doesn’t mean they eliminated the choice for players to “grind” on their own.

Not sure how else to explain it to you. It’s like going to a doctor, and him forcing you to eat three apples a day, everyday, for a year or you die. That’s a grind. But if the doctor just recommends eating three apples a day, everyday, for a year, you can make the choice to do so or not. It makes you healthier, but it won’t kill you to skip a day here and there.

Bernie.8674:

My definition of grind is participating in activities that involve killing the same creatures repeatedly for hours on end.

Ok, but where does Anet force you to do so? Show me where in the User Agreement that states in order to advance the game’s story, you need to spend hours in SW farming mobs.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, Ascended gear isn’t a grind as per Anet’s standards.

By Anet’s standards, any activity which involves repeatedly killing the same creatures is a grind. By those standards, Silverwastes is a grind. Champion trains are a grind. Speed clearing dungeons is a grind. Collecting champ bags is a grind. Participating in those grinds is the only way to collect silk fast enough to keep up with the time gating. That’s why my claim is valid. Your claim that I can just do whatever I want and find myself with the silk I need is completely ignorant. Maybe back in your day five stacks of silk could be considered “drowning in silk.” Now they aren’t even enough to make one piece of ascended gear.

You keep falling into the same problem. Your definition of a grind is not what Anet considers a grind. Silverwaste farming is a grind, IF you choose to make it one. You aren’t required to farm 10 hours of SW and Vinewrath kills to finish the storyline. You aren’t required to Bandit chest farm. You aren’t required to train Champs or World Bosses. YOU made the conscious decision to do so. This type of “grind” is player made.

For full disclosure, I do all of the above. I made that choice, and I do see it as a grind, but it’s my own. When I get tired of it, I stop. It has no effect on how I view this game. Anet gave me the option to play this way, and I chose to do so.

So again, is there a grind being forced on you to complete your Personal Story, or Living World arcs? The answer is no. Anet kept their word since the days of the Manifesto.

phys.7689:

Guy already posted, been saving silk for 2 years, he had like 3k scraps. Which is only 1/3 the way to ascended cloth.
I have friend who been saving for like a year has like 1700

There’s no required timeframe in which to get fully geared. If it takes him 5 years of casual gaming to get enough Silk scraps, that’s ok. We all play at our own pace. But there are ways to speed up the process.

1) Convert Karma into cloth armors → MF → Salvage
2) Buy Silk from the TP
3) Get lucky with an Ascended armor box

The first two are individual choices. The last is RNG (which also isn’t a bad thing).

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ascended gear isn’t a grind. Anet doesn’t require you to have it to play this game. You choose to make it a grind. Big difference.

You’re trying to link two statements together, but they are unrelated. Whether or not the gear is “required” to play the game is up for debate (and I think you and I would be on opposite sides of that debate as well), but it is irrelevant because, required or not, ArenaNet explicitly stated that acquiring it was never intended to require a grind. You yourself linked a post from last month where Collin reiterated that stance.

The second issue is whether or not a choice between waiting a year to get end game gear and grinding for it is an actual choice. I contend that it’s not a choice.

Even if you were to convince me that it was a choice, I would never see it as a pleasant one. The reason I stopped playing Guild Wars for six years was the realization that the faction that I had been happily grinding for through PvP was much more easily obtainable by repeated sending my heroes on the same quest over and over ad nauseum. That was a choice, and it was one that made me realize the game’s futility. I had already achieved every other non-grindy objective that the game had to offer by that point.

Grind is not fun in any form. Waiting for 1200 scraps of silk to accumulate in my bank isn’t fun either.

Again, Ascended gear isn’t a grind as per Anet’s standards. That invalidates your first claim. It’s a long term goal that wasn’t meant to be achieved in a day. I’m not here to say that you don’t think it’s a grind, only to inform you that your definition is your own. You choose to want items faster, thus in your mind, it becomes a grind for yourself only.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get items faster. That’s why there’s the TP. It allows players to put in bids for items they want, or to buy it off of other players for a price. Want 1,200 Silk scraps now? Buy it from the TP. Want it the old fashioned way? Play the game.

Lastly, getting 1,200 Silk scraps is fun. How so? You see, before Ascended gear came out, I was drowning in Silk from just playing the game. If you didn’t sell them, you had a good supply to make Silk Bolts.

phys.7689:

yes, this is the big mistake with colins definition of grind, he says its ok, because you can get things through many means, but he is forgetting that highly ineffecient options are not real choices.

If i could walk to work, but it would take me 3 hours, versus a 12 minute drive, then that is not a real option.

Remember, driving is a privilege, not a right. If the government decides to revoke your license because of reasons, then you’d have to walk to work, car pool, or catch a bus. Sure it’s inefficient, but it’s still a choice. You could also find a job closer to where you live. Or you could move closer to where you work.

Bernie.8674:

The game doesn’t force you to get ascended gear, but Collin, who you claim you agree with, explicitly stated that ascended gear was not intended to be a grind.

Ascended gear isn’t a grind. Anet doesn’t require you to have it to play this game. You choose to make it a grind. Big difference.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ascended crafting is not a grind. Players choose to make it one.

How is accumulating 7200 silk scraps not considered a grind? By your definition, nothing is a grind. Even foxfire clusters (which I should point out were intended to be a grind) are not a grind by the arbitrary definition you’re applying. Of course you can get silk without grinding. No one is complaining about the need for silk in crafting. It’s the quantity of silk that’s required that makes it a grind.

You need to read Colin’s definition of what a grind is.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

I subscribe to his definition. The game doesn’t force you to get all Ascended gear. Players choose to. You can enjoy this game just fine with Exotic gear, or heck, even Rare gear.

By the way, yes I’m fully geared with all Ascended armor, accessories, amulet, Legendary weapon, and Laurel upgrades. I played smart, saved up mats before Ascended crafting came out, and was able speed through the sets. The only thing that slowed me down are the time gates, which I didn’t mind.

tigirius.9014:

That’s a false premise designed to try to make people’s arguments invalid and it’s a logical fallacy. Sorry you’re going to have to do better than “people just want things instantly” as an argument against the draconian systems in place right now which historically have been proven to cause populations to drop significantly in these games and historically have been proven to be not as profitable as people might think! I have several examples all of which have had to drastically change the AH centric nature of their games in order to keep their populations as well as their profits high.

So until you can come up with another argument I suggest we keep on target as to why silk is not available from karma and the damage that TP centric progression does to the playerbase.

It’s also not a natural progression nothing is natural here in this title, so bringing nature into this is not relevant and it’s no more relevant than the notion that the TP is optional. For many an account (and yes whole accounts we’re talking about here) the TP is not optional at all because you can’t farm for the materials.

I was also not talking about legendaries I was talking about making ascended gear.

1) You can get Wool, Linen, and Silk with Karma in a way that’s allowed by Anet. Last year, me and Gaile had a long conversation regarding the Anet’s definition of an exploit for using Karma to get low level armors to salvage. She confirmed with her Customer Support division that it’s acceptable to buy armors → MF them → salvage. I kept that e-mail in case someone ever decides to ban me for doing that.

2) Entitlement exists in all games. When I had an NES (yes I’m old), I used something called Game Genie to cheat my way to the best scores. It’s because I wanted the best score as quickly and easily as possible. Now with GW2, players want to fully equip their characters with the best gear as quickly as possible. The TP allows for this by purchasing necessary mats from other players. Because a lot of players Demand Silk, we’re able to sell them for a profit. Some legendary market players like Vol invested accounts worth of cheap goods to resell. If you stocked up on Silk when it was near merchant cost, you made a killing. So until you can come up with an example of how you can alter human nature, the TP will always cater to those who want stuff here and now. Prices will fluctuate on the Demand for said item, and the Supply of it. Break it down more, and it’s Demand (at a low price) vs. Supply (at a low price). If someone buys all the cheap stuff, you’re left with either paying a higher price, or waiting for someone else to sell cheap.

Bernie.8674:

My eye sight isn’t what it once was either. I’ve left the part that completely contradicts what you just said bolded for your convenience.

I’ll quote the part that invalidates your post:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You’re making a mistake here. What Colin said is that you shouldn’t have to grind for the best gear. Ascended weapons and armor are not a grind, by Anet’s definitions. They are a long term goal, but not as long term as Legendaries.

Ascended crafting is not a grind. Players choose to make it one.

Colin and MO both made a commitment to be more open with communication with the community. I have faith that more CDIs or similar initiatives will come forth. Or else you’ll see a virtual torch and pitchfork march on Lion’s Arch.

tigirius.9014:

Wanze.8410:

tigirius.9014:

eithinan.9841:

Ohoni.6057:

Of course part of this is that they need to better communicate these changes. They can’t just slip a new faucet in under the radar and hope players notice it fast enough to offset the new sink they announce, they need to announce both at once.“We added a new recipe for a backpack. . .” and elsewhere in the notes “we upped the drop rate for silk scraps in Silverwastes by 2%” or something. Really they only need to say enough to communicate to the savvy speculators “there will be no supply/demand changes here, do not waste your time.” The regular players will just do their thing and the economy will balance out as a result.

I can see why some would object to this, it would cut into their phat, phat economic PvPing, but it’s for the good of the game as a whole.

This isn’t the worst idea when you clarified what you meant. The issue I see happening is that with clearly announced mat faucets it would end up pushing the price lower during the “faucet opening” and then higher afterwards. Savvy market speculators would pull most of their buy orders that make the buy order walls and crash the price during this time, then just buyout all the under priced items afterwards. For better or worse those giant price walls are necessary for items to have value over vendor+1.

Here is something that i think annoys a lot of people out there. The prices of everything on the TP is set by other players. At this point in the games life there are some very wealthy players having a small impact on some things on the market. BUT the majority of common items like silk and other key things cant be manipulated to such a degree. They are too high of a volume in trades and in the end the market comes into balance between supply/demand.

I am not against faucets being opened, but they also need to be closed. When a faucet opens and the material loses its value because of that, people leave that farm when it hits bottom. Then the faucet closes, and demand starts to eat away at the lower priced supply. If you announce any faucet openings or closings you just help out anyone trying to manipulate those markets.

The reality is I know a few people who have 100’s of thousands of silk bolts from when they went from 2 scraps ->3. They quit the game a year ago but may come back for the xpac.

tigirius.9014:

RNG gold TP DRRNG it’s RNG plus DRgold cloth that was only available from Karma vendors,karma TP vendors in towns, a Karma DR everything in game that is a reward. CAN get these with gold for the TP loot, DR, RNG.

That argument to me is no less irrelevant than someone saying world poverty doesn’t exist because I got a paycheck today.

You can get karma armor from temples in orr that can serve you for any content available. I also convert my karma to linen with the mystic forge which isnt really behind a RNG wall.

Can you for silk. That’s the question I would have and does salvaging these things from the Karma vendors really produce as much as those bags that drop silk? That would be my other question because those bags aren’t just behind an RNG wall they are behind 2 as well as DR.

You can convert your karma to gear that salvages into silk but due to the higher karma prices for that gear, it would be economically more efficient to get linen armor with your karma, sell the linen and buy silk from it.

Not necessarily as the prices fluctuate. It might not be worth it if the linen costs are very low. However, if there was a way of getting silk by buying karma items from vendors that too would be far superior to the system we have now because then even with the salvage kits cost you’d have people who could actually get directly the kind of materials they need without the use of the TP which was a secondary problem people face with this game, the game is too TP centric.

The TP is a part of Tyria. It’s a system that helps facilitate trade between players. People only feel the game is TP centric because they feel Entitled to getting everything they want fast. That allows people to profit off of items from those who demand it here and now.

Using the TP is optional. You don’t need to get your Legendary within a day. You don’t need to get Silk from other players. Game mechanics allow people to target and farm any material they need, albeit at a cost. That cost can be either coin or Karma.

Silk is expensive because it’s needed. Demand > Supply. To break that down further, the Demand is modified by how quickly a player wants to gather the required sub-materials for crafting T7 mats. Anet did this on purpose. You may not agree with it, but that’s how it is, that any changes to this would break the market in ways that John wouldn’t want.

Wow, sad news. But as a consultant, he can still work with Anet to coordinate internal strategies. Let’s hope his freelance duties take him back to Seattle.

Bernie.8674:

Wanze.8410:

Why do people assume that the changes to the refinement of silk bolts and their high requirement were only meant to get rid of surplus silk?

I think its way more reasonable to think they introduced those changes to have silk high in price as it is the only material used in all armor classes.

I don’t buy this because the T6 mats (powerful blood, ancient bones, etc.) are already used across all armor classes. If you want to apply the gold sink evenly then manipulate those. Silk requirements are not even across all armor classes. They hit cloth wearers the most.

Wanze.8410:

Crafting ascended weapons didnt really occupy the player base for a long time after it was released, so they made sure that armor will take significantly longer

I’d like to direct your attention to this post:

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

So what you’re telling me is that they deliberately made a change to enforce a restriction that the lead designer explicitly stated was never intended.

You’re making a mistake here. What Colin said is that you shouldn’t have to grind for the best gear. Ascended weapons and armor are not a grind, by Anet’s definitions. They are a long term goal, but not as long term as Legendaries.

Players choose to make getting the best gear fast, thus they create their own “grind”. Because the players are responsible for this, they have no rights to complain. It’s like me deciding to go for my PhD in Economics, then complaining to the university that my degree is a grind.

dietzero.3514:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

dietzero.3514:

It actually IS at the heart of silk going back up. People are once again competing over the diminished supply to make Damask.

What’s wrong with a little competition? It’s completely healthy for a market to have some.

Thanks for the irrelevant post.

Not sure how it’s irrelevant, as this whole thread is basically an economic discussion.

dietzero.3514:

It actually IS at the heart of silk going back up. People are once again competing over the diminished supply to make Damask.

What’s wrong with a little competition? It’s completely healthy for a market to have some.

Ohoni.6057:

Prices never change except in reaction to a choice ANet has made. If ANet make no further changes to the game, the prices of everything would level off and remain constant.

Not true. If players determined that Nomad gear was the next IN thing, prices of Sheets of Ambrite would increase without any intervention by Anet. At that point, you’d probably be calling for more quartz nodes to be put back into the game (temporary of course) to offset the increased demand for refining these.

Then, if the fad died off, and there’s too much quartz in supply due to the extra nodes, you’d be calling for more sinks to bring prices back to a predetermined level.

Take the above, and imagine having to do that for each and every item with value that can be sold on the TP. You expect John to invest the time to track and implement constant changes each day or week? All in the name of some utopian economic model that makes a small percent of players happy.

As the old saying goes: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Players who are smart with the TP will prosper, and players with no patience are willing to pay.

Capitalism, ho!

Svarty.8019:

John Smith.4610:

You don’t micromanage markets to maintain equilibrium.

Do you think the alteration of the number of silk scraps required per bolt could be perceived as micromanagement?

Nope. Micromanaging something, or someone, is vastly different than making a one time adjustment.

It’s more along the lines of brain science.

Anet may have internal specs on where they believe each item should be valued at. That doesn’t mean all T5 needs to be the same, or that all T6 should be the same. Through their data, they can correctly predict where each item value falls. It’s not through code changes that made Powerful Venom Sacs fall in value, while Elaborate Totems increased. It’s through players as a whole who changed metas, therefore changed demand for certain materials.

Right now for Ascended crafting, you need T2, T3, and T4 mats to go along with the refinement of T7 mats. This is why Wool and Linen out-value Silk. Players made it as such, but Anet theorized that the price fluctuations would happen. A side effect to this is new players with low level characters are able to make money by selling drops on the TP for higher values.

No one should approach the GW2 economy with a fine tooth comb, and attempt to suggest the perfect market. Once you do that, you move more towards a Communistic approach, where Anet decides how much of each mat you get and how much you a special merchant will pay for them, than a Capitalism one that allows us players to determine prices on our own.

John Smith.4610:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wanze.8410:

azurrei.5691:

John Smith.4610:

First off, ground turkey is amazing. Ground turkey makes you strong.

Agreed – ground turkey is amazing! I eat turkey burgers (sans bun) 3-4 nights a week!

Its not the turkey that makes you strong, its the hormones they add to their feed. But usually, you dont feel that strength building up due to all the antibiotics they also add.
While I was working (as a chef) in Boston about 12 years ago, my girlfriend was in the US Track and Field Team and preparing to go to the Olympics in Athens. She failed a drug test. Her hormone levels were too high and they traced it back to some turkey she ate the day before the test.

This is why you should stick to non-GMO turkey from Whole Foods. Studies show that humans were much healthier thousands of years ago, because they ate all natural vegetables, and meats from free roaming animals they hunted.

Nope, the antibiotics keep me healthy and the hormones are like steroids so get more gainz. I need EXTRA modified turkey!

So it’s confirmed that you’re part of the consumer base that demands the mythical 6 legged turkey.

If a moderator gets a complaint, this thread might croak. I’d hate to say that I toad you so.