Guild Wars 2

Jackums.3496:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I have 0 difficulty killing Mesmers, I use a Mesmer myself, I use all classes, I can literally kill some Mesmers using only my Swamp Drake pet.

Lie. If it was so simple for you, you wouldn’t be whining on the forums in every thread you can. You lost to a Mesmer in some form of PvP, and you’re mad, so you want ANet to fix your problems for you. The “I play a Mesmer” argument was dismissed long ago. Everyone that asks for Mesmer nerf claims to main or frequently play a Mesmer, as if that somehow makes them an unbiased source. Basically, in your own words, get over it.

I am unbiased. The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, and in team fights Mesmers simply can do more than most classes. Mesmer needs to be toned down just like Ranger, once again, get over it. You haven’t provided any facts or reasons why I should care about Mesmer QQing about how their class is unviable/underpowered/bad when almost every top team has one or more. As far as I’m concerned, the only thing a Mesmer cannot do is bunker, and play a condition role. As far as I’m concerned, you are simply biased and have very little knowledge of how a Mesmer works in tPvP. I do play Mesmer, and I theory craft for it as well as all other classes.

As for the poster above me, if you actually need me to list to you why Ranger requires a nerf, then there is no reason for me to even recognize your posts.

jportell.2197:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

jportell.2197:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

That was the funniest post I’ve read in a long time, thanks for the laugh.

You know what mighty altroll mesmers are strong. Do we need nerfed? Hell no our condi removal still sucks compared to necros. The way we deal with conditions is to avoid them. Other classes can tank through them or heal them. mesmers are the only class that was likely intended to just avoid condis all together. hence the blurred frenzy. Also FYI you’re so kitten determined to see shatter build nerfed. I guarantee you that mesmers will adapt after. And buddy you will not like what you see.

That’s fine. As long as they adapt and find something else that’s viable I don’t mind. Once again, Mind Wrack and their Evasion skills are simply too strong/useful compared to other classes. As much as you people would like to make me look like a generic QQer, the point still stands.

I have 0 difficulty killing Mesmers, I use a Mesmer myself, I use all classes, I can literally kill some Mesmers using only my Swamp Drake pet.

HOWEVER: Mesmer requires a small nerf, and I’d be fine with buffing their Scepter to match Staff, and allowing condition builds to become viable. Ranger requires a huge nerf.

Get over it, this is not a learn to play issue, this is simply based upon all around balance.

See the thing is Mesmer condition builds were viable. then anet kittened over the way bouncing works.. nerfing weapon. Staff is viable only for defense the iWarlock projectile sucks at tracking so its usually useless in team fights and there just for shatter bonuses
… Scepter is only going to become viable when confusion stops sucking in Pvp

Once again let me reiterate… Mindwrack Just mindwrack the skill SUCKS… Base damage is terrible and unless mesmers take the corresponding traits it stays as such. My build which uses nothing for buffing shatter damage. Does terrible mindwrack damage. For mindwrack to do good damage mesmers have to take at least 10 into domination and (15 optimally) and 30 into illusions for the self shatter.
Also Mesmer is just as squishy in a shatter build as any other glassy builds. If they don’t take soldiers ammy they are sitting ducks after their shatters. Also a shatter Mesmer is easy to lock down because they have ONE stealth. And the only OP build mesmers have is definitely not shatter. Our evasions… yeah they are pretty sweet. But we have the WORST mobility out of any class in the game this includes necros you have a passive speed bonus and more than one access to swiftness through a spectral skill AND a weapon.

Mesmers have their weaknesses and have been nerfed enough.

Everything you say is absolutely false about your own class.

Try fighting a good Terrormancer underwater, you’ll see what I mean.

I agree that there needs to be a solution, but that isn’t one. Mesmer either needs to have it’s overall damage nerfed, or it’s overall survivability nerfed. I wouldn’t mind people coming up with a non-overpowered replacement, however what was suggested was beyond overpowered.

As for anyone whom says Mesmer is purely glassy and easily killed, then try going full glass Thief, or Ele and tell me how ‘glassy’ Mesmer is.

Necromancer and Ranger are currently enormously overpowered in underwater combat.

jportell.2197:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

That was the funniest post I’ve read in a long time, thanks for the laugh.

You know what mighty altroll mesmers are strong. Do we need nerfed? Hell no our condi removal still sucks compared to necros. The way we deal with conditions is to avoid them. Other classes can tank through them or heal them. mesmers are the only class that was likely intended to just avoid condis all together. hence the blurred frenzy. Also FYI you’re so kitten determined to see shatter build nerfed. I guarantee you that mesmers will adapt after. And buddy you will not like what you see.

That’s fine. As long as they adapt and find something else that’s viable I don’t mind. Once again, Mind Wrack and their Evasion skills are simply too strong/useful compared to other classes. As much as you people would like to make me look like a generic QQer, the point still stands.

I have 0 difficulty killing Mesmers, I use a Mesmer myself, I use all classes, I can literally kill some Mesmers using only my Swamp Drake pet.

HOWEVER: Mesmer requires a small nerf, and I’d be fine with buffing their Scepter to match Staff, and allowing condition builds to become viable. Ranger requires a huge nerf.

Get over it, this is not a learn to play issue, this is simply based upon all around balance.

That was the funniest post I’ve read in a long time, thanks for the laugh.

animalmom.1062:

What is a mesmer phatasm? Is it different from a clone?

I really don’t understand mesmer much and it’s about time I do.

Phantasms are clones that are tougher and do more damage, basically. They also can do special things.

Score means nothing in tPvP. I have rolled P/D before in both burst and condition, it is not nearly as effective as other classes that attempt doing the same thing. I would rather have Beastmaster condition Rangers to do that, as they are far more reliable.

If you truly believe it is effective, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and if you like, send me your build ingame for me to try. If it is effective, I’ll support it 100%.

/laugh helps me beat Thieves. It’s hilarious to see some prideful Thieves leave stealth to try and backstab me when I do that, only for me to immediately counter burst them to death.

Mesmers can do a bit more than a Necro, while still being somewhat tougher to kill. Necromancers don’t come close to the mobility that a Mesmer has, and the problem with what you described is that Necro has to build specifically for one or two things that make him suck at everything else. Mesmers get everything they need on a single build, considering everything they could need happens to be in their class mechanic and weapon set.

Granted, Necromancers/Warriors are definitely looking better the closer we get to the patch, but that’s then, this is now. After the patch, I may change my opinion completely and be screaming for Necro to be nerfed and for Mesmer to be buffed.

ens.9854:

I understand these skills a basically meant to never be used. At the very least they should be much more exciting; a nice surprise in case a player decides to get creative.

Example:
What would a thief wielding only a sword do? He would probably evade or parry before unleashing a devastating riposte. I should feel like I can duel melee mobs with this (the slower attacking ones anyway). Instead we get a “stab” that does less damage than simply auto attacking.

Repeater is strictly a worse Unload. Shouldn’t it be a single, carefully aimed shot?

The same with twisting fang; it is a strictly worse death blossom.

Hate being the “flavor police” but this seems like a huge failing where there could have been tons of potential.

I agree with this completely. Bring more versatility to Thieves, I want to be surprised when I fight a Thief in tPvP sometimes, not physically ill and annoyed at their overly meta playstyles, and vice versa when I play a Thief.

I can ‘talk’ to people on the forums/PMs. When I take someone ingame, it’s to train them generally. However, any EU player can whisper me ingame for advice/answers to their questions, but again, I generally try to physically help them.

WonderfulCT.6278:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Because against a good player/team, you’re going to be squashed like a tiny insignificant bug on a Mesmer’s carpet.

Try it in tPvP against a premade.

I’ve been playing it for a bit and the worst that really happens is a stalemate (or a group comes along and maybe CCs you to death). Also I’m mostly refering to WvW as I don’t play s/tPvP (much). Furthermore I can’t really see how going agaisnt a premade is a good way to judge one build.

Because in WvW, a stalemate means you just run away. Which is actually a loss. Like I said, against a good player, you’re going to have to run away. Try it in tPvP, you’ll see how bad it really is. Fighting a premade is a very good way to judge a build, because you’re stressing it under intense conditions. Any good build would be able to last/significantly aid your team, such as my Necro wellmancer builds, or Mesmer shatters. I have used P/D, P/P, S/P in every possible build combination in high level tPvP, and every single time I get squashed. It’s simply not good.

Enferian, I prefer to actually help people, not talk at them. So I take them ingame to show them strategies on Golems/Duels/tPvP and examine their skills/provide advice.

Most people are ignorant on these forums, and you cannot argue that. Anyone that places Engineer in a bottom tier in WvW knows not what they do. Honestly practically every class is on the same tier save Necro (which is low tier only in WvW), Mesmer (High tier), and Thief (High tier)

Based on their capabilities and problems. Thief is virtually invincible, and can provide alot more than most people think.

Eonxbonx, I do not believe you understand the point, or the concept of it. He’s not asking for a Thief skill that could be spammed on an initiative cost to interrupt someone that even thinks about dodging/evading/healing. We’re talking about a skill counter to a skill capability, (and honestly, evasion isn’t exactly a skill-required thing, since most of the time you’re just evading until your heal is up)

Death Card.2904:

“Contact me ingame for Necro, Ranger, Mesmer, and Thief advice.”
How does one beat the renowned phantasm or the shatter cat mesmer builds?

Phantasmal: Terrormancer, or Beastmaster Condition SB Ranger.

Shatter: Wellmancer/Terrormancer, Beastmaster Ranger, Phantasmal Mesmer, Meditation Guardian.

Rock paper scissors. However, that’s only for 1v1s. My point was that they are not overpowered in 1v1s, but they bring far too much to the table in team fights.

Also, to the poster above, Deathshroud does not stop a Mindwrack entirely unless you trait specifically for it, which means you’d be useless at everything else. Once your deathshroud is gone, it can take ages to get it back up again, which by that time you’re dead. Any Necromancer that sits inside Deathshroud for more than 2 seconds is a bad Necromancer, Mesmer is literally the only class in the game that can FORCE us to stay inside Deathshroud just to survive.

Thieves and Rangers are actually quite useful in dungeons/fractals if they’re good enough. I agree that Thieves are bad in PvP and could use a serious buff to their other weapon sets. Thieves are simply far too good in WvW. I’ve seen coordinated Thief teams actually melt a zerg.

Because against a good player/team, you’re going to be squashed like a tiny insignificant bug on a Mesmer’s carpet.

Try it in tPvP against a premade.

C Hanson.4056:

One thing I love about necro is that there is no “bread and butter” build. This class has so many ways it can be played effectively.

Example: I’m running a d/w daze build on my asura in wvw. Technobabble and warhorn 4 durations are increased by my runes of the Mesmer and sigil of paralyzation (also increases dagger 3). There have been instances where my daze+immobilize+daze have been enough to drop an enemy invader without him getting much of a chance to retaliate.

What builds do you guys run that might be a little out of the ordinary?

Most people create power-vampire builds which are incredibly awful, I run a Condition Vampire build on occasion that works quite well for tanking. I also used to run a condition-power hybrid D/D build that used Thieves runes. Good times.

Honestly, I have a considerable amount of builds that are odd, but useful. 36 viable for tPvP, 12 viable for WvW/PvE, and a bunch that are unviable/experimental.

eldain stenlund.4306:

we got into a fight with a mesmer.

Got mesmer down. was about to use the stomp.

I had 12 k hp left of my 20 total..

I saw a poff of smoke.. and then i was dead. looking at the target that killed me.
a Thief…

My first reaction was… wtf realy ?? 12 k hp.. insta killed. on heavy armor… seriously.

WTF is wrong with the Designers that should balance this game.

On top of the supreem mobility on a thief. it has invisibility. that not even Dots uncloak… they dont even leave a bleeding trail or anything… just… gone.
And Also thieves have this stupidly insane op burst dmg, wich you cant realy protect yourself against… your dead before you react.

Because the fight is like this most of the times:
I target a thief.. i start to shoot at him..he notice he gets dmg and vanish…
switch weapons to prepare melee…
2 seconds later. you see a poff of smoke around you.. THIEF…
You start to swing.. “my hp is fine, i get this”… “WTF.. iam down already ? its 2 seconds into fight”…

My warrior in 20 k hp.. have actually been 3 hitted by a thief..
It was the most stupid thing i have ever seen.
Sure, that thief had full zerker gear and low hp…
but who needs hp if you can 3 hit 20 k hp…

Feck, i dont want to know the dmg they can do against Light armor.
But i heard ppl in my guild getting 1 hitted………..

Maybe they should increase our base armor ? (like alot)…
Or nerf the thief insane dmg abit ?

I usualy find my thiev very boring to lvl… but iam REALY starting to think about joining the stupidly op side and lvl my thief to 80 also.

one in my guild occupied 6 ppl for 15 minutes…then they got lucky and could chain lock him.
So thieves are also super trollers… REALY good balance by A-net…

Don’t play WvW. Go to tPvP where Thieves are side gimmicks and things that I laugh at on a regular basis.

Honestly, I will agree that Thieves are blatantly overpowered in WvW, but if they were to nerf them, they have to separate WvW/PvP/PvE so as to avoid breaking the class.

Almost all classes save Guardian and Ranger have enormous difficulty against Mesmers. You’ll never beat a competent Phantasmal Mesmer 1v1, so just leave or hope that help arrives. Shatter Mesmers can be taken in 1v1, but not easily. As a Thief, you can be insta-killed by a single Mindwrack if the Mesmer is built properly.

Your best bet is to go S/D full acrobatics and be ready at all times to teleport out of combat and leave if you get immobilized. Remember to steal from him successfully, because that boon burst will aid you considerably. Don’t bother using Thieves guild as generally it’s a waste against a good Mesmer. Don’t bother using Venoms either. Make sure to pack Withdrawal, since you can use that while immobilized to avoid a shatter. Also, Shortbow is rather strong against a Mesmer, so keep that in mind as a secondary. Cluster Bomb and autoattack can eat up their clones faster than they can output them.

Hope this helps, but again, Shatter Mesmers are somewhat overpowered for tPvP/WvW, and you’ll have some major difficulty against them, especially in a team-setting.

There is no OP/Noob friendly spec for Necromancers. If you are in NA, and want to learn Necro, send me a message ingame.

For once, I somewhat agreed with you, Pierce.

Some classes have far too many evades, and I personally feel that classes without them should be able to punish that.

Tobias Steele.2071:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Tobias Steele.2071:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

OKay, um…a crit necro? to tell the truth I almost couldn’t stop laughing. It’s a good build, but seriously, if you want crit with d/d go with an ele or a thief. I’ve been playing necros since the beginning of gw1 and it is by far my fav class. A necro is horrible at crit and straight out attacks. They’re not made for it. Just cuz it has precision and crit crap in the build doesn’t mean it should be used for every class. Necros have and always will concentrate on CONDITIONS and raising the nasty looking minions (which i rarely use) You can get a high hp necro with high tough and good cond damage and straight out raw damage. I will have to post a link to my build(s) at some other time as the links don’t seem to be working correctly when I try to post them.
But I too use a d/d necro with staff, But a d/d necro is more the exp necro and have to know what they are doing. If not exp with necro then stick with staff/scepter/focus or staff/axe/focus or staff/axe/dagger etc but not d/d. altho my build is more for spvp, it would work wonders in tpvp. It’s actually an adaption of my d/d build for wvw. I can take on a cpl attackers at a time and do great. Only issues are guardians with the constant cond removals. But will take down the crappy thieves in seconds whether or not they are hiding.

D/W Well based Necromancers are by far the strongest bursters in the game second only to Shatter Mesmers. Whereas we are actually one of the worst Condition-based classes, and our pet build is absolutely awful.

Unless you’re talking about WvW/PvE, where you can get by using virtually anything

Said like someone that has never used a necro in wvw or pve.

I can get by in PvE while using only half gear and 2 traits. WvW is a little tougher, but I can still get by with any build I can think of just by hiding in a zerg.

So you can get by 48 fractals with half gear and 2 traits?
“Hiding in a Zerg” says it all really.

Who cares about 48+ Fractals except the hardcore casuals. Also, no, you don’t need gear. At levels such as that, agony resistance doesn’t matter. It relies entirely on a good team. You can get by on very little in PvE if you’re smart about it.

Again, the point was “It doesn’t matter”, you can hide in a zerg or solo camps. The builds don’t matter as much in PvE or WvW as the skill ceiling is significantly smaller, and you can force reliance on numbers and teamwork.

Xsorus.2507:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Geff.1930:

stof.9341:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

You can dodge conditions. It’s very easy, you just need to dodge the attack that applies the bleed/burn/poison.

That would have been a good point if most sources of conditions were not no-CD auto attacks or persistent ground AoEs.

The fact is that condition damage specs are the only viable specs right now because there are so many ways to counter/avoid direct damage.

If condition damage did not do the ridiculous amount of damage it does now nothing would die. It has gotten to this state because of a fundamental flaw within the game. That is that there are no skillshots in this game, as a result high direct damage leads to QQ (eg. Oh no! Eviscerate does too much damage! Heartseaker does too much damage!). What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

Speaking of which, I QQ all the time about conditions being too easy to apply by most classes. There is no way in hell a Ranger should be able to stack 25 stacks of bleed in under 5 seconds just using a Ranged Autoattack WHILE having burn (the most overpowered condition in the game imo), when a Necromancer can’t even come close to 25 bleeds popping every single one of his utilities/weapon skills (and then it gets cleansed). It’s incredibly unbalanced when you really look at it.

I realized how truly strong conditions were on specific classes a long time ago when I found out why I couldn’t run an extreme glass cannon relying entirely on skill to avoid physical damage.

The only way to stack 25 bleed stacks on a Ranger in under 5 seconds is to rely on your pet for some of those bleeds..

which will tic for 60 at most.

Even without the pet, I can make due with Sharpening Stone and Traps. Besides, I don’t use Lynx anyway, I prefer Swamp Drake (Quite underrated, I dare say. I’ve seen it solo glass cannon Thieves and Mesmers)

Richard Nixon.6573:

dylan.5409:

Mesmers are indefensible in the state they are in. To those of you that are still trying to , spent a bit of time playing a different class; this may help to improve your sense of fair play.
+1 TheMighty, I am amazed that you had to argue as hard as you did but impressed that you did. Shows that someone at least cares about the state of the game:D

OP downplays the strengths of other classes and exaggerates a mesmer’s strengths while completely ignoring their weaknesses and downsides.

I care about the state of the game- I am completely for giving classes buffs they need to be able to compete. What I don’t care for is the use of biased “arguments” to try and get other classes nerfed to stop them from being able to compete.

I have never produced a biased statement about Mesmer, since I use it as well. It does need buffs, but it does need nerfs as well.

Kravick.4906:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

You can get 110% fear duration, but is it worth it?

20% Necromancer runes
10% Sigil
30% 30 in Spite
50% from Master of Terror

Personally Fear would probably be the only thing worth speccing for duration on in tPvP, since almost everyone is practically oozing condition cleanses. Otherwise, go for quantity.

All conditions, and boons, cap at 100% duration. The only reason Lingering Curse goes over is because it modifies the base duration of the skill rather than act as a bleed duration statistic.

I was simply listing the sources out for people, but I am wondering if you can go over with Fear, since it is both a CC and a Condition.

Tobias Steele.2071:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

OKay, um…a crit necro? to tell the truth I almost couldn’t stop laughing. It’s a good build, but seriously, if you want crit with d/d go with an ele or a thief. I’ve been playing necros since the beginning of gw1 and it is by far my fav class. A necro is horrible at crit and straight out attacks. They’re not made for it. Just cuz it has precision and crit crap in the build doesn’t mean it should be used for every class. Necros have and always will concentrate on CONDITIONS and raising the nasty looking minions (which i rarely use) You can get a high hp necro with high tough and good cond damage and straight out raw damage. I will have to post a link to my build(s) at some other time as the links don’t seem to be working correctly when I try to post them.
But I too use a d/d necro with staff, But a d/d necro is more the exp necro and have to know what they are doing. If not exp with necro then stick with staff/scepter/focus or staff/axe/focus or staff/axe/dagger etc but not d/d. altho my build is more for spvp, it would work wonders in tpvp. It’s actually an adaption of my d/d build for wvw. I can take on a cpl attackers at a time and do great. Only issues are guardians with the constant cond removals. But will take down the crappy thieves in seconds whether or not they are hiding.

D/W Well based Necromancers are by far the strongest bursters in the game second only to Shatter Mesmers. Whereas we are actually one of the worst Condition-based classes, and our pet build is absolutely awful.

Unless you’re talking about WvW/PvE, where you can get by using virtually anything

Said like someone that has never used a necro in wvw or pve.

I can get by in PvE while using only half gear and 2 traits. WvW is a little tougher, but I can still get by with any build I can think of just by hiding in a zerg.

Geff.1930:

stof.9341:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

You can dodge conditions. It’s very easy, you just need to dodge the attack that applies the bleed/burn/poison.

That would have been a good point if most sources of conditions were not no-CD auto attacks or persistent ground AoEs.

The fact is that condition damage specs are the only viable specs right now because there are so many ways to counter/avoid direct damage.

If condition damage did not do the ridiculous amount of damage it does now nothing would die. It has gotten to this state because of a fundamental flaw within the game. That is that there are no skillshots in this game, as a result high direct damage leads to QQ (eg. Oh no! Eviscerate does too much damage! Heartseaker does too much damage!). What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

Speaking of which, I QQ all the time about conditions being too easy to apply by most classes. There is no way in hell a Ranger should be able to stack 25 stacks of bleed in under 5 seconds just using a Ranged Autoattack WHILE having burn (the most overpowered condition in the game imo), when a Necromancer can’t even come close to 25 bleeds popping every single one of his utilities/weapon skills (and then it gets cleansed). It’s incredibly unbalanced when you really look at it.

I realized how truly strong conditions were on specific classes a long time ago when I found out why I couldn’t run an extreme glass cannon relying entirely on skill to avoid physical damage.

Shar.3402:

there is no such things as “a lucky roll that saves them from all my burst omg”
when you want to burst someone, immobilize him or count his dodges, or bait a dodge with a fake-cast

dodge and vigor are fine.

I dare you to immobilize an S/D Acrobatics Thief for longer than 1 millisecond, THEN I dare you to count his dodges.

You can get 115% fear duration, but is it worth it?

20% Necromancer runes
15% Sigil
30% 30 in Spite
50% from Master of Terror

Personally Fear would probably be the only thing worth speccing for duration on in tPvP, since almost everyone is practically oozing condition cleanses. Otherwise, go for quantity.

If you truly don’t care about progression, then why would making the unlocks so far apart matter to you? I want snap dragon, but I don’t want to play 24/7 for 10 years just to get it.

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

OKay, um…a crit necro? to tell the truth I almost couldn’t stop laughing. It’s a good build, but seriously, if you want crit with d/d go with an ele or a thief. I’ve been playing necros since the beginning of gw1 and it is by far my fav class. A necro is horrible at crit and straight out attacks. They’re not made for it. Just cuz it has precision and crit crap in the build doesn’t mean it should be used for every class. Necros have and always will concentrate on CONDITIONS and raising the nasty looking minions (which i rarely use) You can get a high hp necro with high tough and good cond damage and straight out raw damage. I will have to post a link to my build(s) at some other time as the links don’t seem to be working correctly when I try to post them.
But I too use a d/d necro with staff, But a d/d necro is more the exp necro and have to know what they are doing. If not exp with necro then stick with staff/scepter/focus or staff/axe/focus or staff/axe/dagger etc but not d/d. altho my build is more for spvp, it would work wonders in tpvp. It’s actually an adaption of my d/d build for wvw. I can take on a cpl attackers at a time and do great. Only issues are guardians with the constant cond removals. But will take down the crappy thieves in seconds whether or not they are hiding.

D/W Well based Necromancers are by far the strongest bursters in the game second only to Shatter Mesmers. Whereas we are actually one of the worst Condition-based classes, and our pet build is absolutely awful.

Unless you’re talking about WvW/PvE, where you can get by using virtually anything

Psychogene.6780:

Both moa and timewarp has its purposes and both are useful in team fight – coz teamwork literally is a counter for EVERYTHING in this game.

You could make the argument with proper use of moa morph (as shown in the previous weekly tournaments that just happened by good/organised premade teams) that it is just as effective at winning team fights when you can lock out a class and train your dps on it to get into a winning position (outnumbering the other team, forcing them to go defensive until moa runs out, forcing the person who is moa’d to get off points etc). So it really does go both ways with this.

From most of the mesmers I have seen in the previous couple of tournaments, most of them are using moa morph and they use it really effectively. These are the people who are playing in the most competitive environment of GW2 so they obviously know the value of moa morph over the other elite skills and I suppose it works for them in their team composition as pretty much all teams I have seen have at least one mesmer in it.

I also read somewhere that anet has acknowledged moa morph being slightly too powerful and plans on toning it down. Is there any truth to this?

I would argue with their use of it, but if they get results, I cannot judge. I do, however, believe that Time Warp/Invisibility is a far more effective use of an Elite rather than Moa. Unfortunately there is the ‘easy’ and ‘meta’ factor to apply. Honestly 90% of all tournament Necromancers run Plague form to support their team, when in actuality, I firmly believe Lich form is a superior teamfight winner.

What an amazing closer for an amazing thread. I’m certain the mods will just adore all of this.

Arganthium.5638:

Ababmer.8419:

Yeah thanks youre all idiots.

Aw man, I coulda beat all your arguments, but when you pulled this on me- oh man! My arguments were just, like, obliterated!

I tend to enjoy your comments considerably Arganthium. This is unusual for me, as I tend to hate everyone equally.

Nikkle.4013:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I only see bad Mesmers carry Moa, honestly.

Guess AL cutie and Xeph and pretty much all top mesmers are bad :/ Don’t know why people are mentioning moa as a 1v1 elite. Phantasam mesmers use it as such but in team fights shatter mesmers use it on a ele or guard and have the whole team spike the target. Dropping a teams guardian or ele in 2 seconds can determine a team fight. Without all that condi cleans, heals, defensive and offensive boons that come from those two classes a team can fall apart. See all the moa spikes in the recent tournaments as examples. Mass invis is nice but a lot of teams have a bomb engi or thief use shadow refuge and get much longer invis openers then a mes can offer.

As I said, Moa is always counter for something, generally a brainless one. With proper organization, a team can make Timewarp work far better to completely win a teamfight. Besides, there is also a counter for Moa, and that is teamwork. If a player is Moa’d, a team can protect him. It’s not an assured thing and is quite risky/ineffective.

Besides, ‘top’ anything should be taken with a grain of salt. You can say Gibbly is a top Necromancer but his ideas for builds/strategies are near nonsense. He is a formidable player, and he does do some nice things for the community, but I wouldn’t consider him a shining example.

ronpierce.2760:

1v1 is a pretty big part of tPVP. Especially if you moa someone and they have to run off a base they were bunkering to even live. Just saying.

But also, I’m not sure if you’re mixing up conversations because I know rank doesn’t really mean much. If I’ve ever said anything about rank is that I would HOPE I could expect more out of a higher ranked because of experience time. Other than that, I know it really don’t mean anything. Unless you’re talking about the Board ranks, it is it what it is. You can use it as a scale or not, right now its broken, but even if it was based on a different formula, it may not be that great of a test of skill.

Further more, we’re talking about SPvP, not WvW zergs. There’s 5 people on either side in a map. 1v1 and 2v2’s are bound to happen a LOT, so yes, while team fighting is important so is small scale. Such as killing a treb user, a lone-defender, if only 1 guy goes after Tranquility. The list goes on. You’re just as blind and ignorant suggesting ONLY team fights matter. You’re just the opposite end of the spectrum of the side you THINK I’m on. Both sides matter, but it doesn’t mean 1v1 doesn’t need some sort of balance too.

A) It’s a small part of tPvP that barely matters. All of the best teams will focus on teamplay and holding 2 points with 2 bunkers while the rest zerg between them to bolster defenses on most maps.

B) Agreed.

C) What do you think is more important, being able to kill a single person but being useless in 5v5? Or being able to aid your team to winning the bigger victory, but having slight difficulty in winning 1v1s. Almost all of the builds I use in tPvP can win most 1v1s WHILE focusing on 5v5s, you merely beat my tPvP builds because that’s all your build could do. 1v1. I’d lose to a Beastmaster Ranger and a Phantasmal Berserker too, but you don’t often see those being brought into bigger battles, and when they are, they generally are nonfactors. Also, the game is fine for 2v2s, with my Warrior friend aiding with my weaknesses I never lose 2v2s, and even win 5v2s.

D) If you want to see 1v1 being balanced as well as 5v5s, then I’m all for supporting you. However it won’t happen.

Ababmer.8419:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Ababmer.8419:

milo.6942:

like i said mate, you’re the biggest nerd here
you’re right that the pvp is not good, but a gear treadmill is an artificial cover up for badly designed game. at the very minimum, gw2 is transparent with its imbalances

I AM INDEED.

It wastes time pretending to be something its not, fact is more people would be pvping if you gave them a hierarchical incentive that is materialistic and reflects our real world.

Guess what, more people would be WvWing if there wasn’t any gear grind.

Stop qqing, no self-respecting PvP player wants this.

You don’t know jack about pvp and should leave this thread, the game isn’t an ESPORT and it never will be because its pvp isn’t good enough, so bite the bullet and add gear progression so that you can get gear whilst you play the PvP

I’m simply waiting for you to be banned for about 5 infract-worthy posts in this thread alone, and for this to be deleted.

It’s truly a shame that it’s against the rules to call you for what you really are, he who dwells under the bridge of umad.

Ababmer.8419:

milo.6942:

like i said mate, you’re the biggest nerd here
you’re right that the pvp is not good, but a gear treadmill is an artificial cover up for badly designed game. at the very minimum, gw2 is transparent with its imbalances

I AM INDEED.

It wastes time pretending to be something its not, fact is more people would be pvping if you gave them a hierarchical incentive that is materialistic and reflects our real world.

Guess what, more people would be WvWing if there wasn’t any gear grind.

Stop qqing, no self-respecting PvP player wants this.

ronpierce.2760:

High Warlord Sikari (MM Necro that beat you with every character you chose, then ranted on how I’m an idiot for playing an MM, when I’ve also done just fine in tPVP with, topped out at 615 and rising, before having to quit playing for a bit and didn’t feel like raising the rank again.) Also, I was Sikari Snowcap, a Phant Mesmer that you also couldn’t get along with because my point of view differed. You just assume to know everything about the game but you’re just an average Joe. Atleast I can admit, I’m about the same. Just an average Joe.

Anyways, I’m done here, have a good chat.

But yes, Moa doesn’t need buffed. It does its job just fine as it is.

You didn’t beat me on every character I chose. You used a 1v1 build to beat me twice in a 1v1 match while I explained to you that it is ineffective in high level tPvP. Your point of view differed, but that’s not why I didn’t get along with you. It was because you were an annoying person who couldn’t understand the fundamentals of the game, I, and 5 other people were trying to explain to you. Rank doesn’t matter, as I have explained to you in the past, yet you refused to listen. Some of the top players on the leaderboards were inactive even before the leaderboards came out for weeks at a time.

I disliked you because you were ignorant and immune to any sort of facts, and all you seem to have the capability of doing is attempt to discredit my opinion through passive aggressive insulting. You even missed the point of the actual original context of the thread, somehow.

You, just like Stealth, base all of your opinions on 1v1. That is a completely incorrect way of viewing the game. Essentially like calling yourself a pro because you’re good at killing a single type NPC in PvE.

milo.6942:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

There is also an unfortunate problem I’ve been having consistently lately, and that is people that go Away from Keyboard (annoying censor won’t let me use the abbreviation) on purpose just to hurt the team. I wish there was a report option for that, but until that is implemented, I’m just reporting them for botting.

i’d warn that it may be considered abuse of the reporting functionality. also it does nothing.

Unfortunately I do not have much of a better option. When 2 people on your team go inactive just so you’ll lose, it seems that it should be report worthy, no?

ronpierce.2760:

It’s actually not worth trying to argue with Altroll, he refuses to ever consider anyone elses’ thoughts if they differ from his. I’ve tried discussing the game with him in-game, and it is way too frustrating. He’ll just resort to insulting you. It’s best for this thread if you just stop.

A) I listen to facts, of which you do not contribute.

B) If you fail to produce facts and simply rant on about opinions and ‘ideas’ or simply fail to produce any form of logic then I will label you as one that cannot do such. i.e. an Ignorant person.

C) I do not know you. I also do not remember meeting you ingame. 90% of the players that I add from the forums I have become friends with ingame and have long/decent conversations with whether or not they agree with me. Obviously you were not interesting/intelligent.

If you still fail to understand the reasoning behind those three points, then you have only yourself to blame for my attitude towards you and your kind.

No. I do not want this at all.

Incentive is fine, Gear is not. I went into PvP so I didn’t have to do that nonsensical grind.

Fix the ranking system so it doesn’t take 12 years to reach rank 60, then add incentive such as Toon slot unlocks, and more interesting cosmetic/animation mechanics.

swinsk.6410:

This is not DAOC and that is exactly how DAOC stealth worked.

I much prefer stealth the way it is now. It’s WAY more engaging and it feels WAY more thief/assassin to me.

This is would be literally useless in spvp and practically kill the class in spvp.

The hell it is. No Thief/Assassin would do what a Thief does in this game. If you feel this is a correct feeling of a Thief, then maybe we should rename the class to “Dodgy Stealthy Spammer”

The hell it would. The ability to delay an entire enemy team with a well-constructed ambush? In it’s current state, Thief is already pretty much useless in sPvP. It’s nothing more than an annoying scavenger. It’d atleast be able to give Thieves some sort of purpose rather than the annoying thing that Mesmers replicate far better.

Zacchary, a party of 5 skilled Thieves can easily pick off 2-3 players and kill them every 15 seconds. Try it sometime, get organized, get a team of decent Thieves, and try it.

3 Stealthed-based berserker D/P players

2 Acrobatics based S/D Thieves

The Zerg cannot kill you, and you can just keep coming back picking them off.

You are by far the most impudent and ignorant person I have ever met on these here forums. You literally base all of your information on 1v1s. Anyone that reads that will see it reeks of inconsistency and blatantly incorrect opinions. Not to mention all you did during your entire rant was insult me, and you didn’t even use any facts.

Entangle, is a huge bonus to a teamfight.

Supply Crate is a huge bonus to a teamfight.

Timewarp, is practically an instant win in a teamfight.

Plague Form, can easily shift the tide of a teamfight

Mass Invisibility, can aid your teammates and shift the tide of a teamfight.

Juggernaut, can change the tide of a teamfight

Lich, can change the tide of a teamfight

Spirit of Renewal is a massive bonus to a teamfight.

Tornado can turn the tide of a teamfight

If I actually have to explain to you in detail how these things can be used to greater effect in TEAM PLAY (THE THING THE GAME IS BALANCED AROUND) than A SINGLE TARGET ELITE SKILL then you are beyond hopeless. I’m glad you’re going to ignore me, I can only hope others learn to ignore you.

Stop QQing about Moa, it’s not something worth QQing about. To quote all of the famous Thief forumites, l2p.

I only see bad Mesmers carry Moa, honestly. The better Mesmer cored premades will bring Timewarp AND Mass Invisibility, combination of those two can easily turn a battle. A single Moa is quite dumb and useless in comparison, as you’re only killing a single target. Not to mention that the target still has the ability to escape. Moa is best and only useful for countering Necromancers.