Guild Wars 2

Kill.6973:

gamefreak.5673:

Etc etc, im done with the QQ ive moved on to depression.

I moved on to a thief, try it someday. I have no regrets

<3

I have a 80 thief, guardian, engineer, mesmer, and necro. Necro from gw1 is what i loved and i wanted to love it in gw2. I made all those other class’s so i could figure out how to counter them in wvwvw and pvp mostly, i learned enough to understand what “insert class here” is doing and what i might be able to do to counter it. I never found them fun so they kinda just sit at 80.

edit: now since they fixed nothing of note for necro i guess he will be the same.

i dont want to QQ, i just wanted them to the fix the AI, change reanimator to a major trait or disable, and bloody just keep fixing traits and stuff in general. Not buff terror, and make defiant stop fear along with daze. Etc etc, im done with the QQ ive moved on to depression.

So, i think i understand savan, more dps is the answer to everything. We have have weak/broken/pointless traits we just ignore them. We have a broken minion AI not attacking mobs for 20+ seconds sometimes, just ignore those as well. We have discussed our flaws with things over and over and over in these treads already, this though really distress’s alot of necro player base because its something i dont think anyone ever complained about.

So finally comments DS, dodging and dps is the key to necro. Everyone else needs to l2p who disagrees with you. Thank you sir, i am enlightened now.

no
15 characters.

Savan, most of the necros that are still on this forum like Sheobix.8796 and ascii have tried multiple builds with multiple armor stats and trait setups over and over. They crunch numbers, try out instance/wvwvw/pvp and just about everything. Sheobix has defend the necro so many times and he has a very good build on the forums that i encouraged others to use because it is a good solid build that works for the necromancer. If you do not see how the defiant change affects necros with daze and the fears you do not know what you are talking about for pve purpose. We could use the interrupted boss mob during its attacks, heals, and even help move to a location because of how fear worked. Same with the daze, it was something we had on basically demand, sure our fears didnt last long but we have access to more of them and could help out groups with them when we needed to.

bumping because Ascii made a good opening post for the tread that should be heard.

Bumping this tread because it needs to be.

I thought in the nice tread tread we already had open made it clear, most of dont want it, the few that do let them keep it by making it a major trait.

+1

Wethospu.6437:

So necros have better dodges than everyone else?

Nope, you just have to be at the edge of the bubble or guardian ring of ward, or the line skill then roll though them to get out or though it. When i said slow me down, i mean i would stop for that very brief second so i am on the edge so i can roll out/though it.

O just noticed, Lopez posted a picture of how to roll out a few posts above this.

keep reckless dodge on? besides that i know i can dodge out of the bubble if i can get over to the edge of the bubble then dodge out. Any sooner and the dodge will not get though, but i think that is a bug since that is how i get though guardian things, yes it slows me down for a second but hey it wont stop me atleast.

I cant solo lupi like you with my necro, and i highly doubt I ever will since they seem on killing my class somehow, but that is how i get out of his bubble when i get stuck inside it.

I feel bad for you guys, i loved my mad little grenade throwing engineer just as much as my necro almost. Sad both class’s are not loved as much as others are.

Most of us necros agree with you Ascii. I was really hoping that little cheerleader would just be gone this update or made so we had a choice to use him or not. As to our updates we got.

Necromancer

Vampiric: This trait no longer triggers when projectiles hit allies.
- still so little it barely puts a dent in our hp to matter
Quickening Thirst: Movement speed increased from 10%/5% to 15%/10%.
- does not stack with any movement speed increase we already have so very little reason to use it
Terror: Damage is increased by 50% if the target has any conditions on them.
- actually this is not a bad increase in damage but not what we really needed from fear
Spiteful Removal: This trait now removes three conditions when an enemy is killed, but can only trigger once every 10 seconds.
- also a nice change, have to test more but so depressed about the patch not in the mood
Gluttony: Life Force gain has been increased from 5% extra to 10% extra.
- i still cannot tell if this actually helps out, so the rounding issue could still be around so still a worthless trait but hey, still better then the reanimator.

I was really hoping for this, i wont lie. Also for them to get rid of the JH or make it optional and not force us to use a minion but hey what can we do really but suggest these things over and over.

Nemesis.8593:

Quillixx.7034:

• Necro
  • The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

Reading through the various comments on each class, I found myself thinking the necro doesn’t even come close to living up to it’s own descriptor.

…they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights.
Unfortunately necros are the only attrition based class. Such a description has NEVER been used to recount another profession in GW2. I can’t seem to even begin to properly describe the let down that such a dynamic is actually part of our balance, when none of the other professions are attrition based. The only comment that keeps popping into my mind over and over is, “Well, in an attrition necro vs necro fight, we can guarantee that a necro will win.”

The only fights that remotely resemble attrition based gameplay would be going up against a profession running a bunker build. Between the passive and active healing those builds maintain, and their cleansing capacities, our condition based builds fall embarrassingly shy of acceptable.

…and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills.
This is another comment from the quote that really felt far from being unique, and definitely not something that allows the necro as a profession to overtake our opponents. Yes, we can interrupt, and we have few options. The primary downside to this is, all of our interrupts are such a short duration, that we don’t actually have an opportunity to capitalize on these moments. The responsiveness of our interrupts are also extremely clunky.

The most common example would be attempting to interrupt a heal our opponent is about to cast. The average cast time of a heal across most professions is 1s. If the necro is mid cast on another ability and attempts to interrupt, the queue system is such that by the time our interrupts are done casting themselves, they are too late. Staff 5 is 3/4s casting time, Warhorn 4 is 1/2s casting time, Spectral Grasp is 3/4s + projectile travel time, and Flesh Golem Charge is 3/4s cast time + 1-4s before the pet may actually initiate the ability. DS 3 is instant, but switching takes 1/2s, and we have no visibility if the recharge when not in DS form.

…allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.
This comment actually makes me pity anyone that thinks it’s remotely true. Necro is the ONLY profession without a burst speed weapon attack, or utility ability. The only utility that ‘could be’ used as a teleport is Flesh Wurm. But with the 1-1/2s cast time, it cannot even conceivably be used as a gap closer. If you’re chasing after someone and you cast it at max range, by the time it goes off, you’re practically standing on where it spawns. EVERY other profession in the game has a means of disengaging the necro from combat, and once outside cast range, the necro has ZERO CHANCE of catching up to them.

The fact that it has been stated over and over that necros can keep opponents in combat, aside from it being completely untrue, is utterly disheartening. Every comment of this sort should include an asterisk that reads ‘So long as they remain in range, and do use their abilities to get out of range.’

Did anyone else read that quote and think to themselves that the current version of the necro in-game doesn’t live up to that class balance description?

I totally agree with you are saying. I actually made a video in which i explain in great detail the necromancer’s greatest flaw in SPvP, and i offer a possible solution.
Everyone agreed with me at that time, and that was it…

I still agree with you, i do like they bumped up the damage terror could do but really, not what we really needed.

Yes
Body length must at least be 15.

Its a way to solve the alt f4 thing, alot of players are using that to get away from a death stopping others from getting bags of loot.

I think they just didnt update the name is all, plague blast is the underwater life blast.

Never for the love of any thing holy make us play on map with tons of underwater combat. I am not going into reasons why because i should not have to.

Haya jii san.1978:

At least your pets are not linked class features so … yeah

We have jagged horror forced on us if we want to use the toughness line. I really hate that cheerleader and it is forced on me just because i love greater marks.

Melpomene.2367:

Still my favorite part about necro, the job that is about fear and death, has the shortest fear.

Hell, when a thief steals from us, they have a longer fear than us. Come on Anet. This is getting old.

Well a condition build with terror actually does good damage with our fears if that matters.

I agree with you, it is really why i wanted a necro. I spent weeks trying to get a build to perform decently once i got to 80, just nothing worked.

Did we actually get a good buff? Will have to test later when i can.

I want to like minions, i loved my necro from gw1, I really do want to use them but id be blind to think they are ok. They have major pathing issues for melee minions, die very easy, and have long cooldowns. Even selecting all the traits to help them live and you using all clerics gear to try to keep them up with regans from our skills and life transfers they still die far to quick and remain dead for to long. Have you never seen flesh golem just run off and attack those mobs in the middle of no place before, or that rack of spears or something? Have you never seen the little cheerleader attempt todo the same as fleshie, or can you tell me how often those little bleeds of his have helped you? Heck have you never noticed how hard it is for melee minions to hit a moving player? Have you never noticed that boss with aoes will aoe more often the more player/pet/minions that are out? The ranged minion do respond at a decent speed ill give you that and flesh worm port has saved me a few times on lupi fight and in wvwvw but that is it. Minions are a joke, anyone who claims they work right should have his eyes examined and maybe a cat scan to see if they have any brain damage because for them to say they like minions for all the issues with them they have to something wrong.

It still exists, just lasts slightly longer…just what we needed, a small almost pointless cheerleader. Its damage is still small, we cant have more then one up at a time, the AI is still broken, and o yeah, they still allow players to get a rally from players under teh effects of having vengeance up and or illusions of life from a mesmer, tested and video to prove it. Video link is in the forum page i linked.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Illusion-of-Life-and-Vengeance/first#post992594

So, i think you need to make a necro and play him for some time. We are not dominating sPvP. We do ok in pvp but no place near as destructive as you make us sound since we can only really spam the second mark quickly, 3-5 are on decently long cool downs already. Our specter + dagger aoes are also on long cool downs as well. Those buffs you say they gave us are not is what we need. We need AI fixes, we need traits fixed, our ability to create LF in-combat is still horrible. Our res signet is pretty powerful but has a really long cooldown. Epidemic is pretty powerful since it spreads conditions on one person to others around him but necros themselves are pretty slow at applying conditions to players, other class’s do it better. So have a engineer or mesmer apply conditions then have a necro spreading is a decent tactic but still, necros are not OP in this game. We have major issues with traits just like everyone else in the game.

Ele’s can almost have regeration and protection up almost all the time now with this patch, thieves are going to be harder to guess where they are when they stealth now, warriors got some ok changes, not great but ok. Necros are meh for the updates since most of it is underwater combat, they did not fix AI, JH is a joke still, vampire traits are still a complete let down.

Edit notes: sry i keep updating this since im writing from my phone and its fickle with web pages and sometimes refreshes before im done so i make quick write ups then fix them with edits.

Last i checked no speed buffs stacked at all, quickening thirst did not stack with the signet. The 15% for main hand and the 10% for off hand do not stack together, swiftness with the signet will not make you run faster as a whole. This was tested some time ago and I have not retested them all today as of yet but I highly doubt they will stack because they never did before.

My thoughts will be below following each one.

Necromancer

-Vampiric: I do not believe this was made it a weak trait, they should have buffed its heal by a bloody lot
-Feast: besides them buffing this under powered underwater skill which is a nice change but really, no one really fights underwater.
-Frozen Abyss: This skill is now a blast finisher, thats good and all but again its underwater.
-Foul Current: o joy another underwater skill buff.
-Dark Spear: still underwater skill what the heck
-Deadly Feast: still underwater, dont really care
-Wicked Spiral: happy about all the buffs to underwater skills but come on, enough.
-Signet of the Locust: great we have another decent passive signet speed boost, i dont see it being that useful since of its long cooldown on it still, we sacrifice a utility slot for just a passive speed increase that does not stack with other speed increases.
-Quickening Thirst: happy about the update but still worthless because it does not stack with other speed increases so whats the good of it.
-Reanimator: why does this exist still, i really hate that little thing being forced on me. They need a AI fix, not to mention we need to have more then one up for it to even matter.
-Terror: I can support this because with good condition damage builds it is a very nice bit of fear damage on a fear. Side note, they nerfed fear on boss like mobs so sad day for that.
-Spiteful Removal: i never liked this trait but now it might be useful that it clears more then just one condition
-Crimson Tide: again underwater combat…
-Plague Blast: already a good skill for underwater combat DS form, have to test it to really have an idea if they made it better or worse.. sad its still only underwater skill
-Gluttony: happy they updated the increase and all but, still have to test to see if it works better because before it barely added any lifeforce at all, not sure if making it 10 will be enough.
-Updated Corrosive Poison Cloud’s- Great a tooltip update, not really helpful to the skill but hey atleast we know the correct times.

kKagari.6804:

More importantly, with this buff look how much more useless this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickening_Thirst, becomes.

I completely forgot about that trait kKagari.

Actually on that JH post. Nero has a nice video of a mesmer using illusion of life on a down thief, thief kills a JH and the thief is now back in the game (not just for 15 seconds) since it counted as a kill for the illusion of life.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Illusion-of-Life-and-Vengeance/first#post992594

I vote to use this one, but if you a new one to make it easier to discuss the changes to tool tips i am sure that will be fine.

Ok the tooltip thing was rude of me but i do not see many changes besides a speed boost to one signet and maybe changing life siphons to be a bit more. Anet takes its time in changing things which is a good thing but i do not think they will change to much about necro.

My thoughts on the the signet change. It will not have its reuse changed so i do not believe many of use will use it for long after we test it out because we have to give up utility slot for a passive speed boost and a activated health drain which isnt not that large and on a 60 second cooldown. Anet takes it time in testing things so i am pretty sure they will not change its reuse.

i doubt minion AI will be fixed because i want it to be fixed and it from my limited knowledge of programming it could be a huge problem causing them to fail so well.

Nero just confirmed that horrors do indeed still give a rally when killed by a player under vengeance or illusion of life. Link to the forum post below.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Illusion-of-Life-and-Vengeance/first#post992594

I have not seen the little horror give a rally to players in a down state in sometime so i thought they fixed him. I will be back to hating it for giving out free rallies again. I already hated it for other reasons but just adding this one back to the list.

hackks.3687:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Illusion-of-Life-and-Vengeance/first#post991907

interesting video…

its been so long since ive seen someone just rally from the down state i just assumed they fixed it. I did not think of seeing if vengeance and illusions of life would cause a rally from the horror kill. I am back to hating him for free rallies.

Kain Francois.4328:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU9H7zaD6zs

Need I say more?

I think this proved the point very well.

You know the bad thing is, most necros will probably still not using it for the run speed buff. I can get perma swiftness on a much quicker cool down then 60 seconds if I need to use the activation skill for a aoe health drain. Even with signet cool down trait i still do not think most necros will use it for the run speed again because we have perma swiftness. That is just my 2 cents of it.

If it applied in combat that would great, last i checked on signets which has been ages, the speed buff does not work. So its still pointless for me to have on my bar like the other signets are besides the rez one and that is only used in instances not in wvwvw often.

As to the tread, minions do seem to work better when summon in combat to fight a target, they will still stand around if an add shows up or a re-spawn of the mob you just killed but will atleast try to attack the current mob you are fighting you summon them in combat.

I have not programmed anything since collage for database and basic html, but if they gave us the code to try to fix minions I would gladly start learning how to understand the games code to try to fix them.

I want my minion master from gw1 back. I know they will never let me have 3 flesh worms or 6 bone minions running around because the code does not allow us to have the same utility slot have the same skill but i miss my real undead army. Sometimes you needed all ranged minions in 1 and even in this game. Heck I miss all the combinations i had access to with my minions from 1. Besides a AI fix I still strongly believe for them to be effective in gw2 they all need much lower recast times. That way it doesn’t matter they die from everything, we would not be wasting a utility slot on them now when they all die from 1 aoe, we just keep them coming back.

Sheobix.8796:

gamefreak.5673:

XiL.4318:

KirinDave.6451:

XiL.4318:

So while I can competitively play Necro against the best PvP players in the game, within reason (bunker and burst being what they are to Necro…), new players cannot without frustrating themselves into playing something else. And that has to be fixed.

Guides and/or videos, pleaseplease… sticks hands out in the universal “gimme” motion again

I barely have the time I want to play let alone make videos and guides. That is ArenaNet’s Job.

Nemesis.8593 has made some good guides at the top of the necromancer page if that matters.

Nem’s vids a re a little long for my tastes, and i’m a speed reader so i actually tried to write a LOT of different guides to help new/old players with the necro.

most of the time, they got shot down

Hey you try to help out the community so it goes along way. I still miss my old army of undead from the first one and the ability to have then be the same type of minion instead of just 1 bone fiend i would have 6-8 running. Good times in gw1. I will be glad to spend many hours/days testing the MM again once anet says they fix them and tweak reanimator.

XiL.4318:

KirinDave.6451:

XiL.4318:

So while I can competitively play Necro against the best PvP players in the game, within reason (bunker and burst being what they are to Necro…), new players cannot without frustrating themselves into playing something else. And that has to be fixed.

Guides and/or videos, pleaseplease… sticks hands out in the universal “gimme” motion again

I barely have the time I want to play let alone make videos and guides. That is ArenaNet’s Job.

Nemesis.8593 has made some good guides at the top of the necromancer page if that matters.

Kithzyan.5034:

All i’d like is 2 extra hotkeys next to our Death Shroud…

F1 – Death Shroud
F2 – Pet Attack
F3 – Pet Withdraw

Yes, it is what the Rangers get as well.
Yes, full pet control is meant to be the Ranger’s thing.
Yes, it means we have more to be aware of.
No, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t get it with the AI at present.

Until ANet can fix the pet AI (its a hard problem, I totally understand), doesn’t this almost entirely solve the problem? You target something, hit F2 (or your rebind) and all currently summoned pets will head out; none of this attacking something and waiting to see which minions figure it out and decide that its a fun plan. Adding the 3rd button also gives us a “holy carp aoe, get OUT!” option as well.

f4- all pets die, would help when you want to respawn them for the next fight quicker then clicking the arrow, swapping to new skill, then swapping back.

1) At level 80 it will last for 10 seconds, 3 seconds of the animation for it to get out of the ground and 7ish seconds for it to maybe attack something. Now it only living for only 10 seconds bothers me for many reasons.
-one being its on a 30 second cooldown, secondly and it is spawned after i kill something so great use that does since most times im done fighting already. not all the time but most times.
-those rare times in pve or pvp setups that a mob or player is left for me to fight. The JH and its damage is so small it might not even be there if it ever gets to the target
- if nothing is alive there is a small chance for it to run off and attack something so yeah, i do not find him helpful or wanted.

2) The issue is it a melee minions have to be right on something to hit them, and 7ish seconds is not enough time for it attack mobs or players most times.
- the AI plays a large part of the failure of a minion from hitting anything because it will run up to something and wont connect with its attack because the target is moving or it dies because it bleeds out
- other times it just stands around anyways regardless of how many minions you have.

3) That is great that they fixed this issue in September, still hate him for months that he did cause this to randomly happen.

4) The JH or even other minions like flesh golem have and still run off and attack mobs for you, large part to AI being so bad.
-I have not seen the shadow fiend, bone fiend. or flesh worm do it but fleshie, bone minion, jagged horror have all run around rocks, small hills, and even around walls to find something for me to fight.
- Fleshie did his very best to get me killed many times in twilight arbor. Not sure if JH ever pulled a mob in TA. Now i know he has pulled mobs in CA, AC, SE, CoF and Arah before the group was ready for more fighting.

5) I remember many fights in wvwvw when i was able to find some good 1 vs 1 fights, i would down a player, horror would pop up. He would die and right before my animation finished for down the player they would get up in most cases. Now this has not happened in sometime so i guess they did fix but it should never have been in aloud to happen in the first place.

6) Some fights he is a detriment to the team, along with other minions.
- Arah on the lupi fight. It is possible for a grub to be spawned on the annoying JD, does not happen all the time but it can happen which will make the next 2 phases harder then they need to be. I can kite lupi during phase 2 and 3 very well if i have the flesh worm up so minions are not bad during phase 2 and 3 just in phase 1 they could cause a problem.
- Someone says they fixed this but i dont remember seeing a red post or update about it so ill assume its still not fixed. Been over a month since i ran arah with the JH anyways and i am not just going to run arah for the fun of it test one trait.
-Another example is subject alpha. His aoes target all players and the players pets/minions. So having tons of minions around is a bad thing and the jagged horror can be spawned from the trash mobs subject alpha spawns during his fights so it happens more times then you think.
-third example TA last boss with all the spiders. Sometimes he would run up the giant tree and spiders from behind him would charge the group, other times this does not happen but the fact is it does happen.
- I am sure there are other boss fights he has caused me to have issues on, just cant think of them at the moment is all.

7) He does not act like any shield or aegis.
- He does not take a hit for you in anyway since most times in wvwvw/pvp you are being attacked by aoes or players will single target you, not your pet.
- In PVE those seldom times he does die from a mob hitting just him because more then likely it was a aoe that killed him,
- it does not does not benefit you at all since the protection of the horde no longer gives you more toughness once it is dead for the next 20 seconds atleast.

8) He is a horrible 5 point trait compared to other class’s traits. What’s interesting about comparing all of these is that ours is the only one that doesn’t immediately benefit us in combat like the others (we have to kill someone first).
Thief:
Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches 25% (90-second cooldown).
Ranger:
Increases endurance regeneration by 50%.
Guardian:
Gain aegis when your health reaches 50%.
Engineer:
Gain regeneration for 10 seconds when you are attacked while under 25% health.
Warrior:
Extra armor when health is above 90%.
Ele:
Gain 1 toughness per level while attuned to earth.
Mesmer:
Gain 10 seconds of regeneration when your health reaches 75% (30-second cooldown).

Make it optional or a way to turn him off, do not force us to use a trait that can actully cause us more harm then good.

Wethospu.6437:

Zogyark.4597:

Guess it’s time to solo lup with my necro

Please do that!

Blackmoon.6837:

Very cool, but you could give me hope and impress me more by showing the same skills with a Mesmer. >_>

Unfortunately I don’t have much interest in leveling and gearing other characters. But don’t worry, I’m actually very jealous of Feedback.

gamefreak.5673:

fantastic work, got to love the vigor and 100% damage reductions with the shield skill. Very good job with the whole fight though.

Bit nitpicking but Signet of Stamina actually gives just half-Vigor.

Half vigor is more then my necro has, and not to mention only thing i have to soak damage is DS which lifeforce is really annoying to gain while in combat with a boss sometimes.

Nothing will make them happy.

I would like that along with a better way to get lifeforce while in combat since we have to rely on DS to take those big hits for us unlike guardian and warriors with aegis and block. So many times DS was just eaten by a boss AoE i couldn’t get away from because i used my dodges already. Then still waiting on my dodge to come up another boss AoE, fun times with lupi.

edit: i would love for them to fix the AI on minions but i do not ever think they will.

fantastic work, got to love the vigor and 100% damage reductions with the shield skill. Very good job with the whole fight though.

Great videos as always. I just wish that whole alt f4 would stop happening on 1 vs 1 fights i keep running into but 1 vs 30+ feel free to alt f4 to save yourself that pointless repair.

I happen to like Sheobix.8796 build since it is very close to my final build i am using. It has a few tweaks from his i just like myself but his is a nice solid build. One day minions will work and ill be happy since that is what i wanted to use but right now they are just horrible.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Update-28k-HP-3k-Armor-3-4k-Attack-Necro/first

Nice tip glock.

From the bug list at the top of the necro page. It has been over a month since i tried it out myself but last i tried it does not apply.

Curses
(NB0042) Curses: Chilling Darkness: Does not work with Plague of Darkness.

Necros have to hit F, then f1 very quickly afterwards to use death shroud to stomp or revive so most of us think its a bug but we are not complaining about since we dont get really anything else to assist us in stomping/reviving.

Sheobix.8796 has a very good build on the forums. I was running a very similar build to his for sometime. With practice you can do a decent job at 1 vs 2 players with his build in wvwvw.

I strongly wanted to be a minion master like from gw1 but gw2 are a complete joke because of long recasts, cant have more then one of each one out, die to easy, and the AI is a major factor in then failing. Now if the ai gets fixed and they make it so recast wasnt so long i think a minion master would be a good build. They already do good damage its just with the AI they do not work right.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Update-28k-HP-3k-Armor-3-4k-Attack-Necro/first

edit: i am advising against using minions to him, for reasons as AI, long recasts, and such.