Guild Wars 2

BikeIsGone.8675:

Oh gee….1 bad game….Matchmaking definitely has to be broken. In all honest, I can’t hear this kitten any more. If you are so easily frustrated, then I guess leaving PvP probably is the right choice.

Leaving PvP is the right choice.

If i may add for everyones comments.

When did having the meta team comp become the necessity to winning?

Prior to HOT I could run any wacky build and be competitive and in most cases better then the opposing players that i was better then. I can understand if you come to the forum alot and see all the negative posts and say No i disagree with it because your having fun.

For me Build Diversity is the worse its ever been as well as team comp potential. In the match i was talking about I and 1 other player were winning the 1 vs 1 but could not win any team fights.

Its not about skilled play or even a unique build set up that you have to think about. If i was running hammer/mace-shield with the power trait line on warrior using condi. You would notice that any stuns/ knock downs/ cc would be the way he applies damage.

There is none of that, HOT specs are so OP compared to vanilla builds. And meta builds are so OP compared to other HOT builds. I truly dont know how anyone can defend GW2 PvP at this point, maybe i hit the breaking point.

Ok so many of my guild mates have already called it in. They play the new living story, run threw the new map once or twice then run off to another game.

So today the patch came in and i was gonna jump into the story but habits kick in and i go for daily PvP.

And here is why i will join my guild mates. We had a necro, a power rev and myself and another ranger are playing power rangers. I believe our 5th was a burn guard.

The other team had a necro, a condi engy, a condi mesmer, a condi warrior and a meta ele.

Match making aside, balance is straight gone. There was nothing our team could do to win team fights of any size. 1 vs 1 i got a couple wins and i saw a few others too. But 2 vs 2 and especially with the ele. The biggest kicker is we all died nearly instantly, team fights were 10-20 sec long. The score was about 280-500 so maybe Anet looks at it as a good match. This is unranked and there is alot of chasing and we clearly had better mobility.

But this is horrible, they were running 3 meta builds with the mesmer, warrior and ele. Potentially for necro but i dont know. We were running maybe 1 build with our rev. Its clear that there builds some what work with each other with the stuns, dazes, gyros etc etc.

Our team didnt simply because build diversity is shot. I say this all the time but Pre HOT wasnt like this.

Solo que in unranked is not fun anymore either. Pre HOT i could run hammer, s/s. mace/axe, and rifle on warrior and i could perform really well. It didnt matter if it was meta or not. I could always bring something to the table.

I was trying beserker amulet with longbow and greatsword on ranger. I think MIAZ does builds like this and im no where near that skill level. But this mesmer shielded, distorted, blink and dropped a portal and came back from the portal and started again.

I wish i took a pic but at one point i had like 10 condi on me and it was like 12 confusion, 10 bleeds, 8 torment, chill, blind, cripple etc etc etc.

So after i finish the story later i will wait for the next update to log back in.

Good Luck everyone in PvP

Tybalt i agree was the best.

My 2nd and 3rd personal favorites were Eir and Caithe.

In the original GW2 story they had the most character. Eir feeling the guilt of team member. Zojja was really dumb about this as if she was the only one upset about it. (they were all pretty mad)

Caithe bringing you in and seeing the GREATEST TEAM OF HERO’S assembled and her sharing pain about her love for Faolin and with some details of what shes gone threw.

HOT really really upset me with the story line of how they treated DE. Eirs death (spoiler alert) was really weak to me and Caithe/Faolin saga really really was terrible.

This story was a potential chance to show this dragons power over the Sylvari and what a huge threat he was suppose to be.

On my Sylvari rev and necro threw story mode, it felt rushed and nearly identical to my norn and human. I threw my hands up when on a story mission Canche cared more for a Sylvari soldier who was turning more then I did.

HOT story felt rushed and actually makes me despise it with its quit story telling and damaging effects on my favorite characters.

Its like being a Cyclops fan from X-men and then on the 98th comic book the jerk writers start turning him into a bad guy because people are butt loving wolverine.

SO MUCH FRUSTRATION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with alot of what you say but i like to add something.

S1- S4 we had more levels. Bronze-Emerald- Sapphire- Ruby-Diamond-Legendary

S5-6 We had bronze- silver- gold- plat- legendary

They cut out a whole division. As someone who was in the gold3-plat 2 range i can tell you right now i did not belong in some of the games where the other team had 2 ESL players and mine had 1 and it looked as if i needed to be the other hard carry.

Bronze and silver players should only play each other, gold and X division should only play each other and the Semi pro and pro players should be playing each other in the plat and elite divisions.

Why will this not work though? Simply put no one played this season.

As someone said in a earlier comment, the skill level/ understand from Gold 1 to gold 3 is too high. And the same goes for plat 1 to legendary players.

When you can legitimately say that of the best 250 players on the ranked Leader Board, only 50 of them can play with each other and the next 100 can play with each other in S5.

When S6 rolls around and there is legit gold 3 players in the top 150-250 range. That is a huge drop off in ability from the community.

I honestly would not be surprised if Anet just didnt a S7.

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

This is what you wrote,

My issue is what seprates skill pre hot and post hot and how are you defining it?

Glass P/P thieves could be in a game Pre HOT. It was a decent build at certain levels but ELITE LEVEL PLAYERS could easily counter it with skilled play.

What im saying is HOT makes it less unskilled play when HOT gives me a ELE Elite Spec that gives myself a reflect with a new weapon which we had with the focus and staff before. What makes it unskilled is i can give my team reflects with 1 shout and i can give myself another one with a earth over load and if i need overkill i have rebound for everyone as well.

This isnt increasing the skill cap. Your statement says a lower skill floor which is true but in no way does it shot a higher skill cap.

Also you point to the community whining about build diversity, guess what chaith a while back wrote a huge list of things to improve ENGY build diversity but none of it happened.

Are you better then Five Gauge?

Toker wrote the Illiad version of his disappointment with Anet ability to balance PvP since HOT came out.

Are you better then Magic Toker.

I myself am a nobody and i use to run some awkward non-meta builds all the time. I got to legendary every season i tried season 1-4. (they were seasons 1-3) I also was able to get to plat 2 with a rating above 1800 at one point and i finished S5 at over 1700. I did it running a rifle warrior build and ele with S/W.

To this day ive ran non meta builds and from my personal experience PRE HOT non meta builds were far more successful then POST HOT META BUILDS.

I want you do understand since im being clear about everything i say. Nothing about you being a pro means anything when you cant defend your stance on HOT skill level.

Your arguments are about attacking the forum whiners and addressing how build diversity cant be accomplished.

No one has asked for it to be perfect. But the fact meta builds are so much stronger shows the lack of a skill ceiling and when you say the skill floor is easier it contradicts what the majority are saying.

If it takes a 4-6 to play a average trap DH. But it the skill floor for a p/p thief 1 and the ceiling is a 4. This is terrible build diversity with a HOT build and core build.

But Pre HOT a pistol thief ceiling could be a 6-7 that means that build diversity to a extent was working.

Lastly you talked about the dps warrior and the condi warrior. Ive done this with olrun as well but these 2 builds are nearly identical.

Defense/ discipline / beserker with what rune of the krait- strength or beserker ammy and what carrion? With maybe dead or alive or cleanising ire are the differences?

Seriously 1-2 traits are different and amulet rune change, this makes them completely different? How about them using all the same utility skills?

Yeah thats way better then Pre HOT where dps warrior and shout bow used a different spec line, amulet, rune, weapons like greatsword and hammer and sword shield. As oppose to mace shield and greatsword and mace shield …………………….. and longbow.

Also they used 3 different utility skills and 2 different elite skills.

Biggest and most important they had different styles of play.

Styles of play is where you measure skill level on top of all the base things everyone already knows.

You have yet to debate/ argue your point with out throwing out that you play against/with Pros so there fore you know more. Please read your own statements and then explain on why the skill floor is lower and the ceiling is higher with actual comments and examples that make sense.

Forsty.7968:

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

I dont understand how you can say that.

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

These are the kind of people that most people in the forums agree with nowadays, amazing isnt it.

I can say that because i play at that level. HoT complicated the game. I mean if you take for example mesmer youd be crazy to think pre hot power mesmer was harder to play perfectly than condi. Even the skill floor raised on mesmer.

Wow explain to me then.

If the skill floor changed why are the exact same players the meta?

Tarcis was still the number 1 warrior ( or 2nd) and it didnt matter if he played core or HOT version. He stayed at that level.

Helseth Pre HOT was probably the best mesmer in the game, crazy thing happened he was still the best mesmer after.

You and crinn talk about how the skill level increased, my question is for who since all the best players easily adjusted to it?

You and crinn have just argued my points and if i may say. Its a weak rebuttal at best.

Your “point” doesnt make sense. The good people dont suddenly get bad at the game when it gets harder and the bad people dont suddenly get good at the game when it gets harder.

Why do you think the top players were the top players before HoT? Why would you ever think some other people would replace them? Skill floor has nothing to do with the top players. Complicating the game doesnt mean the game is going to change into a completely new one. What the kitten is going through your mind even, are you actually kittened?

Your not saying anything,

My point about the Pro players was nothing changed. My point about myself was nothing changed so what evidence do you have that the skill floor actually changed?

How did you miss that?

It changed for new players coming in who want to play thief or ele and dont look at meta battle and die instantly to traps?

Thats not skilled game play at all.

You want to play a core build and forgot YOU HAVE TO STABILITY to play against a warrior. Your a fish in a bucket for the head butt and mace F1 spam you are about to see.

Thats not skilled game play. There is no give and take in HOT.

You are literally missing all the points. You said this is the most balanced the game has been maybe ever. You said HOT is more skilled game play. If that it so why is everyone running the same builds?

Lick form necros are dead, rampage warriors are dead, banner warriors are dead, etc etc etc.

What we got in its place was a super build for each class. Pre HOT you could of faced a shoutbow warrior or a rampage warrior on most occasions. And if they werent they still could possibly be running something that could ruin your build like if you brought stun breakers instead of condi cleanses.

At the end of core GW2 people where screaming that d/d ele was OP and it was.

Look at these threads now, DH is broken, thief is broken, warrior is broken etc etc etc.

If the game was more SKILLED game play people wouldnt be constantly talking about how HOT specs have ruined PvP and WvW so much.

fishball.7204:

The majority of core GW2 builds don’t really live up to the levels of elite spec builds, that’s pretty much a fact. Outside of niche stuff like condi engi, necro, thief maybe burn guard there’s not much else which would be comparable to elite spec builds.

When you think of balance that way (core v elite), the balance is super poor. However, if you look at the class distribution, every class now has playable builds utilizing elite specs which sorta makes the balance ok there.

It all depends what you’re looking at and I think both of you are right in your own way.

It’d be nice to see more variety on various classes though, especially on classes like Ele & Rev.

Question?

So i use to run some wacky builds pre hot, like i use to run hammer rifle with carrion amulet.

I did power/ arms /defense

For the condi interrupt and the always crit on F1 for kill shot.

I use to beat people all the time even whent he d/d meta was going on.

So my question is doesnt it take more skill to play against multiple builds?

I mean right now HOT hard counters so many things, build variety can change it. For instance i use to see phanta all the time use a s/f aire ele in unranked and he would crush people. Every now and then you find a p/p thief and it could work if the other player didnt know what to do.

Doesnt HOT specs kill alot of builds therefore making game play easier when you know your gonna see alot of the same builds? And even if they decide to run something non meta, you dont even need to change anything to counter it. You simply wait since now a shout can reflect for the whole team.

Doesnt it simplify the game?

Forsty.7968:

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

I dont understand how you can say that.

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

These are the kind of people that most people in the forums agree with nowadays, amazing isnt it.

I can say that because i play at that level. HoT complicated the game. I mean if you take for example mesmer youd be crazy to think pre hot power mesmer was harder to play perfectly than condi. Even the skill floor raised on mesmer.

Wow explain to me then.

If the skill floor changed why are the exact same players the meta?

Tarcis was still the number 1 warrior ( or 2nd) and it didnt matter if he played core or HOT version. He stayed at that level.

Helseth Pre HOT was probably the best mesmer in the game, crazy thing happened he was still the best mesmer after.

If we want to make a comparison, its like the NBA right now. Today there are more 3’s being shot then ever before. The speed of the game is much higher and shots are being taken like they were in the 70’s. The game has changed drastically since the 90s. HOT and Pre HOT.

Can the teams today like Golden State and Cleveland beat the 98 bulls or the 95 Rockets?

You and crinn talk about how the skill level increased, my question is for who since all the best players easily adjusted to it?

Even above average players like myself fell into the exact same rank as before.

All my points still stand, just like the NBA today. Every team in the nba playoffs play nearly the exact same. Ball dominant scorers, 4 all around players that can all do a little of everything.

In the 90s you had alot of specialist and alot of different styles of ball.

Pre HOT there was alot of different team comps. You saw it with EU vs NA how they always had different set ups.

HOT is so broken that Five Gauge (maybe the best engy in the game) tried to play ranger because its simply better for team comps.

That isnt increased skill level, that isnt more build diversity, that isnt a evolution of game play and a higher skill floor.

Anyone can say what they want and X says this because he plays at X level.

Im using literal examples which are true, im using myself as a example which is also true. Im pointing out things that almost everyone can agree with when it comes to game play.

You and crinn have just argued my points and if i may say. Its a weak rebuttal at best. Crinn said at 1 point guardians sat on virtues ……………

You have said this is the most balanced the game has been maybe ever.

If that was true you would see more then 1 build more most classes. Like we had Pre HOT

Saiyan.1704:

ellesee.8297:

BnS is just simply the better game! I encourage people here to join some veteran Guild Warts 2 players like me, Ostrich Eggs, and many more and play some fun, competitive PvP

No offense to Ostrich but he stopped being competitive the moment The Abjured kicked him off the team.

Please tell me again about all of these Ex-GW2 competitive players being top 100 in this other mmorpg, a game where Rank PvP is filled with these so-called Destroyer Bots.

OE was on a team that placed 4th on that last Pro Season, i dont know if you call that not being competitive.

I disagree with the losing rankings. You need to lose rankings if you lose alot at a certain point.

But i do agree something needs to change with the numbers.

I was literally in a match 2-3 days ago where a DH ran to far where i was capping home. I won the 1 vs 1.

My team lost 4 vs 3 at mid and then 1 player decided to blame me for the loss because i was running rifle.

I lost 15 that match, Anet put me on a team where the other 4 players on the team could not win a single team fight.

Its S6 and we dont see the teams MMR rating which is total BS to me. How can i get -32 one game and +9.

Show me the teams ratings so i at least know i wasnt cheated with your MM.

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

I dont understand how you can say that.

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

I will take myself as a example. I have always considered myself a above average player. Cant really compete vs the ESL players but better then the majority.

In the old solo que i was rated in the top 300 if i remember correctly and i was in the top 500 for team rank. ( alot of yolo que)

Ill drop a pic of my rating last season.

Nothing has changed, pre HOT and post HOT the players are near the exact same skill floor.

All that changed was HOT created some of the most unfun build diversity/ team comp diversity/ and broken game play since this games launch.

I truly dont understand how increasing the speed of the game 10X, by adding things like engy hammer which has a reflect, block, movement speed and a high damage combo is more skilled.

Or a ranger staff which has a gap closer/heal, a passive attack which is a heal and team utility condi removal with a massive boon up keep more skilled.

My favorite is them turning classes like warrior which was about timing. Into a complete spammer with head butt which breaks stun and then stuns you. Then using a burst attack which damages you and then heals me. Then i use utility traits where many classes cant hurt me. Which now forces mesmers to take a shield and spam distortion, sword 2 etc etkitten

erally nothing about HOT is more skilled, does it take some skill to play? Of course which is why there are so many complaints on the forum. But we care comparing playing chess pre hot to connect the dots.

@ crinn

1- No F3 block for a period of time is not as skilled as a well timed F3 which only blocks 1 attacks. Not all of them and also cures condi on every block

2- Yes nerfing skills because mid level and below players dont know how to counter is a bad thing. Yes power creep is a bad thing when they combine things such as warriors do damage and get healed at the same time.

It creates this situation where snow balling happens alot worse. I head butt then smash F1. I get 3k health regen and i do 5k damage to you. This is 2 stuns and both can be stun breakers so i never have to worry about being stunned.

In core GW2 you had to set up the F1 and a bulls charge/bolas land a GS2. You can call it what you like but the set up and chess match of trying to trigger dodges and stun breaks are gone.

3- What do you mean no one at higher levels spams skill? What do you think myagi was doing with 3 and dodge in plat 2/3. My friend got to plat 1 with full trap DH build and he wasnt trying to engage fights but simply drop traps in places where people would run and get caught.

No one is saying GW2 HOT is skill less but you said core GW2 took less skill when i can literally play thief and dodge then 5 and then dodge and 5 to down someone.

4- Of course portal plays are still in use but not like that anymore, you didnt bother to check.

5-" Some classes are more vulnerable to certain things than other classes. This is basic knowledge" yeah and what you said are the weaknesses were basic answers.

How to beat dragon hunters tips. Watch out for traps, you cant hurt them while they use F3 or renewed focus and shortbow 2 and sword 3 can do alot of damage. Becuase i said this everyone who loses to a dh is a noob.

^ this is literally 100X better then what you said about class weaknesses. You were like revs are weak towards condi, not if they are using malyx but ok thanks for that.

Lastly your list of passives added doesnt say anything once again. Thief was given a extra dodge. Dodges on thief now do something added which makes X utility skills for valuable then before.

Engys have been asking for something other then hammer for ranked play.

Your talk about the power creep as if it some how created better/skilled game when it forced people into 1 meta style of game play which is that thing we called build diversity.

In ESL before HOT you would see pro team running full bunker builds such as 2 bunker guardians, 2 staff eles and a d/d ele and Five Gauge would talk about how X team really kills the joy some times.

OHHHH wait that didnt kill it for him it was S4 tournament where Anet didnt fix down state due to the huge amount of everything HOT brought.

But of course we wont bring any of that up.

CptAurellian.9537:

And I though sPvP always crippled the rest of the game with stupid balancing decisions …

can i ask for these sPvP changes that effect raids?

Because the heavy majority of PvP community do not like the elite specializations.

From pro players like toker saying they were not good to average joes asking for a a que with no elite specs.

Im wondering what skills balance this is?

Natto.5819:

I have a friend in Germany that tells me NA is a clownfiesta. I’m not sure what that means, but I’m guessing he’s just trash talking. When I told him the best player in the game is Naru since he’s going to be the God of PvP, he laughed and said in EU, he would be mid tier.

Why is European players better than America in PvP? GW2 is an American game. Is it because all the good NA players moved to different games that EU is dominant now?

this is silly

You can clearly see from the last tournament that EU and NA top 10 or so players are of the same skill level.

I dont know how you can judge the PvP level now when many of the elite players are not playing.

NA has always been top heavy on thieves, necro and ele’s. HOT base lined those classes so when NA won the first 2 WTS it was because those were the stronger classes.

EU 100% better on the mesmer class. Liek you could make the legit argument that 4 of the top 5 mesmers in the game are in EU which is why you saw 55, Vermillion and TCG become better then NA.

Simply put skill level is the same, if you asked Anet to balance the game properly we could find who had the better teams and i use the word “had” since anything competitive in this game is dead.

Its a PvE game moving forward and only small updates to PvP and WvW will come in the future.

@ crinn

Sorry i have to agree with the others.

The idea that the the old core builds were easier to play is bonkers to me. Especially since you said guardians sat on there passives. You could tell a good guardian from a bad when they would time a perfect F2 when the team has 8 stacks of burning on them. Or when someone is about to get kill shotted and they time a perfect F3.

Alot of people have died (including some ESL players on video) have died to traps randomly placed some where on a map. I have a friend who runs a 5 trap Dh and just drops all the traps on certain area and doesnt really engage fights. He made it to plat doing that.

Also your description of what classes weakness applies to everyone.

Prior to HOT a few necro players made necro the best 1 vs 1 class in the game. That was skilled based and build based. Anet nerfed things like lich form and ramapage because lower level players couldnt handle those skills.

Which was the process of dumbing down the game.

Now with HOT the game is in its simplest form. Everyone does lots of damage (except ele) and you can just hit the same 3 buttons over and over to do it. Thief is either dodge and 3. Or 5 and 3, warrior is elite skill with F1 then weapon swap and F1. Dh just put traps down and walk away, heck for revs dont even worry about how to get boons like in core GW2. They will just be passives for you.

You usually make some good points but i completely disagree with HOT being more skilled vs core GW2.

There is a video on Helseths page, maybe his first GW2 video. You watch him on mesmer fight far and his portal play is insane. Your not seeing anything like that anymore.

Exciton.8942:

kdaddy.5431:

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)

I disagree.

The meta prior to the d/d ele meta was really nice.

Warriors were shoutbow, rampage-power, and it took alot more skill to play. It had set ups for team fights and 1 vs 1.

Guardians had 2 legit ESL builds such as burn guardian and bunker shouts.

ETC ETC ETC

You could make the legit case that every glass (except thief) had 2 legit ESL builds. Since HOT came out we have had 1-2 classes be completely useless at high level play.

So i guess you can legitimately say the balance is the best its been since 2016 but this game is coming up on 6 years old.

Also no ESL players means what 30-50 players not playing. With there alt accounts? Thats alot of games not being potentially being played.

Lastly the plat vs silvers happened last season as well as plat 1 vs Legendary players.

I wouldnt say PvP is dead since its just a side game for Anet but we can say that for most players since the introduction of HOT PvP has become trash play.

Shoutbow warrior was more overpowered and easier to play than any of today’s builds.

How can a build be both the best team fight support and one of the strongest 1v1er? On top of that, it had a set skill rotation even easier than d/d ele’s. And with such power, it still has above-average mobility and decent kite potential.

Shotbow warrior is essentially today’s healer tempest combined with a bruiser type like scrapper or druid. It has potential to contend for the most OP build in gw2 pvp history.

I can agree with shout bow being OP. But it was most OP during the d/d ele meta so it barely got played in ESL.

Also most teams didnt run the shoutbow warrior for teams. They went with the power warrior and bunker guard which later turned into shoutbow warrior burn guard but by this team PvP hit the wall.

But you say easier then now? Im sorry but alot of things now are just hit it when it comes off cool down. I mean with so much spam skills like headbutt, to F1 primal mace weapon swap for another F1. You realize that Anet had to buff warrior healing on something because it couldnt compete after 2 full season from HOT?

Shout bow it at least made sense, you shouts to heal and cleanse condi. Use fire fields to stack boons and do condi damage.

Now its do damage to heal yourself. I do 10k damage to you in 5 sec and i heal for 6k.

This diverges from my original point though, in ESL you saw staff ele, s/f ele, d/d ele- burn guardian, bunker shout- point holding ranger and a longbow ranger- power warrior and a shoutbow etc etc etc.

At the highest level of the game there was some build diversity until everyone saw how broken d/d was which they could of easily fixed.

Look the at last Pro leagues, everyone ran the exact same build and the exact same team comps for every team that had success. In WTS 1 and WTS 2 you saw different comps.

Thats all i was trying to say.

Aresian.1872:

and look scoreboard!!!all time add me losing team!!!!!!gm answer me!!!!

Ive actually never understood this idea.

In unranked the MM should try the fairest match.

In ranked i dont think they should be trying to find win for players.

My problem with ranked MM is when one side clearly has the advantage. Warriors vs Blazers obvious but yet if im Damien Lillard i still lose 30 pts from my rating.

If you play 10 matches and the rating system is like 45% to 55% chance every game and you just lost, thats gonna happen in ranked.

Soltar.9643:

lol rev isnt unusable, dont talk kitten

I think for the majority of the PvP community it is.

Ive done some matches recently after saying i wouldnt play this season.

Seeing a rev in general is rare. When i was teamed with some other players in silver – t1 gold. I would target the rev simply because they have been nerfed and only good players know how to survive it.

I mean even in gold 3 and plat 1 when i was a rev it was iffy.

So just from my experience there might not be as many good revs and its a class where the ceiling is higher then a warrior, DH and thief a class that can replace a rev.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

That isn’t even air/fire/blood/leeching hitting or pulm strike.
That is just… vault…

yes this is a legit

HOT has created insane everything creep

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)

I disagree.

The meta prior to the d/d ele meta was really nice.

Warriors were shoutbow, rampage-power, and it took alot more skill to play. It had set ups for team fights and 1 vs 1.

Guardians had 2 legit ESL builds such as burn guardian and bunker shouts.

ETC ETC ETC

You could make the legit case that every glass (except thief) had 2 legit ESL builds. Since HOT came out we have had 1-2 classes be completely useless at high level play.

So i guess you can legitimately say the balance is the best its been since 2016 but this game is coming up on 6 years old.

Also no ESL players means what 30-50 players not playing. With there alt accounts? Thats alot of games not being potentially being played.

Lastly the plat vs silvers happened last season as well as plat 1 vs Legendary players.

I wouldnt say PvP is dead since its just a side game for Anet but we can say that for most players since the introduction of HOT PvP has become trash play.

@ vayne

I can agree with that. The difference i was trying to point out was the vast amount of maps. I mean you talked about Timber Line falls and this is its own area but there is also many other maps you can explore.

To the point that when you finish map completion with 1 character and you say that was fun. Let me try on a necro this time, you might forget some things or find some things you missed before. Since Core GW2 had alot more stuff to do.

@Tanner Blackfeather.6509

I too would also like to point out some things. In core GW2 you can run straight threw your personal story and go to the end dungeon or you can go threw all the dungeons story lines which tells the story of DE.

Core GW2 has a ton of story if you choose to do so. The reason why the maps are a issue is because in HOT you need mastery points to do the story. IN GW2 core you needed to strong enough to finish the last dungeon in ORR do finish the personal story.

At no point in either can you just run threw the story without getting gear or leveling.

Its part of the ride along.

@ Vayne

What did i do in timberline falls? I explored, i watched npc/ did escort missions/ stopped pirates.

Everything you said like ohh there is gliding stuff, there are mini games, there are etc etc etc. Ummm yeah thats part of exploring and seeing what you can and cant do.

Also if you read my comment i wrote that if you like farming, that would mean doing the same events over and over again. I dont even know why you are upset and trying to make a point saying the exact same things i did. I know its because mine is negative and you are being positive but can you at least change the approach.

Also if you look at my history i play PvE but i have mostly played PvP and WvW. So i wasnt one to do X event 100 times. I completed Core GW2 map completion with 2 characters and 2 more around 50% +. That is with thousands of hours played.

It took me a few hours to get most of the HOT maps done simply because its 4 maps.

I like exploring threw things and taking my time. Core GW2 had next to no grind because there was so much for everyone. If you didnt want to explore you could farm, dont want to farm you could do dungeons, dont want to do dungeons you hunt champion bosses, dont want to train go to PvP, dont like being in a small group in PvP then you can join WvW. That was on release and they added guild missions and fractals later.

HOT for the masses has destroyed PvP and WvW. Anet has not touched old content from GW2 therefore dungeons have died as well.

If you like exploring guess what it might be tough since alot of content takes zergs like ogre lane or bottom AB needs help or need more for 3rd commander in DS.

Anet merge all of them together, boss hunting/ farming/ exploring/ meta events into 4 out of 4 maps.

I dont know how you can even argue this, right now as it stands. The only people still loving this game is PvE farmers and raid groups. Raids has found a nice place with in this community. People who like coming on to do stuff like boss runs, meta events and farm mats love the new stuff.

I mean thats a huge community, WoW has lived off the next tier of stuff you need to get.

The complaints you are seeing from me and threads like “New player, Sad player. Expansion ruined it” is that GW2 was not suppose to be like those other games.

When GW2 first came out it was unique and different from other MMOs. HOT has turned into a straight grind from Achievement Points, titles ( look im rich- or some crap) scribing, ( its alot easiar to level now and it still takes 2k gold if you actually make items to decorate your hall with) events and Guild halls.

Then you talk about TEQ and Tiple Trouble. Triple Trouble i can give needs some team work and some explaining. But nerfs destroyed the difficulty of TEQ as well as HOT power creep and how easilly everyone can get Ascended gear. So really core GW2 had 1 meta event which you need to look for a timer and HOT which has 4 maps, you need 3 timers.

If you want to say you enjoyed go ahead but dont try to tell someone like me who has thousands of hours played, 29k + AP and played GW2 on a PvP team for AG that the game hasnt taken a change of direction.

HOT is 800% more grindy then core GW2

If you really enjoy farming then HOT is for you.

Anet tied some things you need to mastery skills, to do some of the story but alot of the HOT story lines are in the PvE areas.

For me personally HOT is alot of grind. For instance in VB land 100 rifle shots. Ive done this event a few times and it becomes a pain especially in a dead map.

Another great one is AB do the meta event 100 times.

I and many guild mates have had huge issues with 3 maps being mostly about the meta event. 3 of the 4 HOT maps are checking times of when the meta is coming on and getting into a good map.

The new maps with LS can be fun but another issue is they created a new type of currency for these maps. Then they do stuff like 100g for circus sword.

Or in the last map, many of us spent X amount of gold to scribe. (especially if you are in a smaller guild) Then say Logan Thackery picture for 50g.

HOT has alot of fun aspects but for me the farming garbage out weigh the garbage by way too much.

So if you like farming HOT has endless hours.

Runiir.6425:

People always say a harder timein PvP but it is relative, core classes can still compete though it is dependant on your willingness to learn every class and play to your class strengths in a huge way.
Base Necromancers are still contenders (and in some instances are actually preferable) as an example.

PvE? You have all of core Tyria to play in and it will be enjoyable. HoT brings a few maps and some QoL improvements but the base game is a lot of fun without it.

LOL what?

No HOT specs are far better then core specs in PvP and WvW.

Players who play core builds in PvP can get away with is if they are the exception like Crysis for instance.

Or because Match Making is so broken you have silver players vs plat players ( which there are pics in the PvP forum to show that) which allows some lucky players to run core crap builds like signet ele.

Or better yet using a season like S2 which stacked similar MMR players on the same team vs other players in the same pip range. This was great for having ESL players vs completely new players.

Yeah in those cases please core build your way up otherwise no HOT specs for PvP and WvW are a must if you want to be competitive.

Crusader.5497:

And if you get caught out you get killed and lose your caps too. Like I said, I don’t know who you are, but people with years of experience tell me CLOSE-MID is the only viable strat, so I will trust them.

On top of that, I have won by 200 points each time when people actually stayed CLOSE-MID, and I have not lost a single game.

You know what, I aleady know ArenaNet won’t fix this, or teach people how to PvP in a week. I’m uninstalling and this is my last post, I won’t bother with a bad PvP system. BB

Im not sure what you are saying.

Because literally the 1-1-3 push was the split among any teams for TOL and ESL leagues for years among the best players.

Also my Guild team use to do the 1-3-1 push with our best 1 vs 1 player going home. Our thief to pester far and power necro mid with a shout guardian and shout warrior.

I finished i believe at 1719 or 1704 last season but the close-mid thing is meaningless.

You want to hold 2 cap points period. If the other team has 2 players you can not beat in team fights against. It be better to cross push where they are not at. Also you should be fighting on the roads. If you can catch players running to a point you can pinch players sitting on nodes.

I dont understand that tunnel vision logic.

OMG if thats the best match up they can give and thats what he gets for winning, im shocked anyone still plays.

I bet they got -24 for only getting 24 and Sind must be thinking how can i stream this?

fishball.7204:

kdaddy.5431:

Why do people say this game is based around PvP?

Literally the last patched showed its not.

WvW has been complaining about ghost thief since the release of HOT. They killed it after a ghost thief solo killed a Raid Boss.

Did anyone else watched The ESL games heading into HOT and then HOT S1.

4 d/d eles and 1 thief followed by 3 mesmer 2 revs tournament teams. And the only reason they changed mesmers was because they were too easily boon sharing in raids.

Why!!!!!!!!??????

Boon sharing mesmer got killed because of WvW. It’s still 100% quickness chrono in raids so nothing has changed really for PvE apart from taking 2 chrono instead of 1.

The ghost thief still works to solo Sloth, just you can no longer use the traps so only rely on caltrops which makes it take 2x longer. However it is no longer stupidly broken in WvW.

Ohhh ok

The guild i raided with (months ago, havent raided since before christmas) started running mirror comps due to the changes to mesmer.

It was 2 mesmers, 2 rangers, 2 warriors, 4 eles. So as someone who used rev and necro in raids i kind was left behind and i havent bothered to check if there is a new meta.

The thief trap thing i took the word of my friend. He said it was a great idea and it was semi useful or at least fun in PvP. Broken in WvW and he would never attempt a 2 1/2 raid for 1 boss. But he said they killed it for PvP and WvW so im surprised to hear its useful still in raids.

insaneseagull.7063:

Jelzouki.4128:

Long time pvper here and semi pro necromancer player zojoel for team asap zerg. cough 1 win away from pro league cough

I haven’t played the game in months but I still follow the scene and know that a lot of top tier and just plain old loyal players have quit the game. I just wanted to share my idea that may actually bring others and I back and make the game fun again.

The idea: I think it would be cool to have a staking system, where you can wager in game gold or gems and winner takes all whether its small 2v2 arenas or 1v1s or 5v5s whatever. Either this or bring back the automated tournaments that let you win gems!

See ya later.

I haven’t been a follower of the scene but from my understanding there never really were a big scene,were there? Most pvp players were casuals and then there were the few elite pvpers going about their days.

And there wasn’t really a real interested in any ESL leagues,were there?

How many top pvpers quit?

Why do people do this?

Lets just take the Abjured and Team PZ. Boom thats 10 players + lets just say 2-3 of the other Pro League players are at the same level. So random number like 12. (its more but for this person saying there are no elite PvP players)

Then lets just throw out some of the older players who werent trying to get back in the PvP scene or player currently still playing the game who were ranked top 5 in the old solo que who dont like HOT.

For instance that ESLguardian aka darek who was in the top 5 last season who wasnt on a pro league team recently. (i dont think) With a handful of other players i know play at that level who never competed in the ESL tournaments.

So to make a pretty round number 30, there should be 30 elite level players who clearly stand out. If you look at the leader board, what about 5-10 of them are not playing. So about 66% of the elite quit, which means that probably a rough same margin of the rest of X level players did as well.

Also ill say that AG week 30-40 were insane. This was a semi- pro level and my team didnt even get to compete a twice in this 10 week span because they filled up.

That was 10 premades every week with 2 Free Agent teams. And the AG had there quality teams like Shark with Lazers and Button Mashers. Teams that would win AG over and over but lose every time in the ESL tournament.

The GW2 PvP community was very healthy until the D/D ele god tier meta and HOT.

Why do so many people pretend?

If it doesnt effect PvE they most likely dont give a hoot.

For instance WvW has issues with ghost thief for 1 year, never fixed or even addressed.

Ghost thief solo slothasor in a riad, next patch ghost thief build is destroyed.

Gw2 is not balanced for anything other then PvE. WvW and PvP are just sides games.

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

Skills need longer cooldowns, not shorter ones. The short cooldowns are what makes the game feel spammy and skill-less.

I agree with with olrun 100%

You want certain skills and abilities to have meaningful effects. Longer CD for potentially stronger skills and lower cds for abilites that wont have as much impact.

For instance the warrior who has a full adrenaline bar goes into beserk mode. Hits F1 misses but its ok because they are using beserker stance. In 3 sec trys to F1 again lands and then uses head butt then F1 again.

The most damage a warrior can do is be in beserk mode landing spammable attacks.

Before you had to make a choice, be OP in juggernaut for 20 or less sec. Be team support with a banner or have a really good passive signet for a elite that allowed for better regen.

People hate thieves because staff 5 with dodge is straight spam. Mesmer goes back in time to recast skills it straight spam.

If they rework traits they need to rebalance them and make items like engy 5 hammer skill have a long cool down since a stun should force players to use a utility which has a longer CD then the hammer weapon if they dont have stability.

PLayers should have to dodge a hammer 5 from a warrior instead of sitting on perma boons.

Fast game play isnt the goal (even though its already fast) competitive meaningful game play with build diversity and the ability to run unique team comps is.

Crinn.7864:

kdaddy.5431:

Thats not condi clear though, warrior gets more resistance from signet heal. Weapon swap trait which i personally dont even run since S4 since the condi are straight instant.

You are forgetting Cleansing Ire which is far stronger condi clear than what you have mentioned.

I understand what the OP is saying because marks are unblockable and scepter auto can literally destroy your build. Endure the pain passive will proc and it wont help with the 30 stacks of bleed, chill, vulnerability etc etc. So when you die your a clean slate with some of the highest cd in the game.

A warrior should never at any point have 30 stacks of bleed (or even 20) on him. Condi necro can’t even sustain 20 in sPvP.

But no one is wrong here, warriors are a bit too strong but not because of passives. Its the last trait in beserker line that gives stability and a break stun. Also a passive trait from going beserk gives might, fury and quickness.

That’s not how that trait works. It’s not a break stun at all. It gives you might when you break a stun. It doesn’t actually break the stun. It’s other effect is that it gives stability while you are in berserk.

1) CLeansing ire is a condi clear but only good on LB, if you miss you get nothing which is why you see alot of bronze/silver/gold heros complaining on “how to fix warrior”.

2) This warrior has potentially vs that many necros. I could easily apply 15 alone in 3 sec with a sigil and a signet on my necro.

3) I stand corrected but to me this is the warriors most OP trait for PvP. More boons more boons.

Crinn.7864:

Wait is a warrior seriously complaining about a necro?

What is this December 2015?

Also for the record warrior has access to condi clear outside of resistance.

Thats not condi clear though, warrior gets more resistance from signet heal. Weapon swap trait which i personally dont even run since S4 since the condi are straight instant.

I understand what the OP is saying because marks are unblockable and scepter auto can literally destroy your build. Endure the pain passive will proc and it wont help with the 30 stacks of bleed, chill, vulnerability etc etc. So when you die your a clean slate with some of the highest cd in the game.

But no one is wrong here, warriors are a bit too strong but not because of passives. Its the last trait in beserker line that gives stability and a break stun. Also a passive trait from going beserk gives might, fury and quickness.

Thats just HOT spec work at its best, more damage, faster damage and less counter play because of the boons thrown out as if its candy.

Also to that who said no one has the passive play like warrior just stop.

Seriously step out of your box for 3 sec and realize thief gets 6 dodges that do damage. Guardian get 8 sec of block with potentially 10 sec of invulnerabilty, mesmer gets 2 blocks with a shield and 2 sec with sword 2 and distortion from a F* skill and can do it all again and share with a sigent.

I wont do every class but please stop saying a class is OP when it looks like you might not understand where its strengths are.

If warriors were so OP Obindo wouldnt have gotten stalemated by a shout ranger in a 1 vs 1 in the tournament held by helseth and sind.

I dont know where you rank.

But i have personally seen ESL players, (pro level players) run far and win 1 vs 2 and sustain 1 vs 3.

As someone home lose a 1 vs 1 and we win mid. Only to have the person who lost home in a 1 vs 1 try again.

Crazy thing happens though, the ESL player at far still holds out and wins all those fights.

In my last game i ran into 1 vs 3 situations and sat on the point so they couldnt cap it.

Windwalker.7421:

Not meaning to rub salt into a wound, but as a semi-casual yet 100% committed old-school PvPer I am not sad to finally be rid of ESL in this game. I have said it many times before, but I never felt like ESL was improving the game, and most of all the fun-factor of PvP in this game.

I agree with many above that I hope we can look forward to more frequent balance updates, improving build diversity by actually fixing the many many broken aspects of all professions.

Probably a pipe dream, but if you take the grind out of PvP again and simply focus on fun —and not competition-- then I think you will win back a few hearts down the road. The PvP in this game is very solid at the core, and thus still has a lot of potential IMO…if Anet decides to focus more on fun and diversity, rather than focusing entirely on competition and with that homogeny in an attempt to make balancing easier.

Why would they fix it now?

The only reason they fixed ghost thief in WvW was because a thief posted a youtube video of them killing sloth in a raid.

I can make a stronger argument that ESL forced Anet to make changes. More then Anet actually wants to balance PvP/ WvW because they only do that when PvE is some how effected.

Hahahaha there is a pretty good youtube video with blu and OE talking about what ANet could do better.

The first thing OE says is more frequent patches and communication with the community . That was like 3 years ago like right around WTS 1.

At this point is safe to say a Zebra cant change its stripes.

@OriOri.8724

This last comment i believe is where Anet should of headed.

Really focusing on the PvP side of balance when it came down to builds.

For instance the turret engy is a good example, the build itself was way to OP for casual play. Yet they nerfed it into the ground. Instead of making turrets scale with the amulet they straight destroyed turrets. Instead of giving them longer CD they they simply put no effort into balancing.

Its why people dont have good memories of the cele amulet era. Anet could of easily fixed it by making bunker classes better bunkers and DPS classes better risk reward builds. Instead it was to easy to have it all with 3-4 cele builds.

Obviously the HOT specs really got rid of the idea of give and take but the idea Anet will fix any issues with WvW and PvP is laughable.

On a side note for everyone else, why fix it now? There will be no WvW tournaments, no PvP tournaments and anyone who knows how the business accounts work know Anet will not put marketing money into the game production money.

In the most likely circumstance they will put more ads into the next upcoming expansion or t-shirts and hats at a open viewing for there live events. Such as game con, comicon or a cosplay event.

The push for Esports was because GW2 mechanically is so close to perfect. All that happened was Anet wanted to balanced around PvE instead of PvP. The idea of potentially running a power necro on 1 team and another team running wells and both teams having good success was a incredible idea.

Heck the Chinese team brought a MM necro and had he ran a better build he would of won a 1 vs 1 vs the d/d ele. It was this part of the game that really could of made it special.

Had this game hit build diversity properly, we could of had heurix and storm breaking down builds and style of play. Explaining how the game and potential mechanics could work.

But that chance has gone, so why would anything change for the better now?

apharma.3741:

Ramoth.9064:

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

while im happy to hear that Anet’s hubris bit them in the backside and refused to let go in this case. a thought occurs to me, maybe this is because they’re losing devs to other companies?

Mike O said a while ago hes looking for a new lead dev with no announcement on finding someone new, theres been people leaving left and right, maybe they dont have the people to actually do anything about this, or fixing wvw, or producing more content for pve?

dont get me wrong, im still salty over seeing WvW being left behind in the dust and glad to see that competitive pvp not being a thing in the near future, i still think its probably due to the company being understaffed and not fully up to the task at this moment.

still my original opinion stands that at this moment, this is a good thing and bad thing for gw2. hopefully more good than bad, as much as i want gw2 to succeed in turning this around, i want them to take this lesson and actually learn from it.

there was a time when the devs listened to us and wanted our feedback and shared with us, now theyre as cold as ice with us and have turned their back so viciously that a ban or a reprimand or a thread lock is always the first thing on their minds rather than understanding and comprehending the issue thats being addressed.

https://www.glassdoor.com.au/Reviews/ArenaNet-Reviews-E255820.htm

this is interesting, take it with a grain of salt though.

Yeah if this is even remotely true it seems they spend a lot of keeping people very comfortable at work but pay less, how much we don’t know but it would explain people leaving. More money is more money after all and experience in this industry counts especially when the employees are still relatively young.

Strikes me that ANet isn’t understaffed it just has a lot of new staff which can be a huge issue as they need training but unless they sort out the pay gap they will lose them all when Amazon starts waving the green around.

As a consumer you need to look at some of the comments as red flags when they say “good” thing.

Like “laid back” and “easy going”, nothing better then the “stress free” environment.

For me those are not great things when everyone writes that down.

The other one is when they write length of time with a the company. Like many reviews say ohhh been working with them for 1-2 years.

This is not a good thing as well since that would mean a high turn over rate. In a MMO where the story has been worse, PvP and WvW have been worse. Also the original style of game play has changed, its pretty obvious that the original idea of what GW2 was suppose to be is no longer the same.

Lastly if i recall the current event Super Adventure Box, this wasnt even a planned event. 1 of the programmers made this in his spare time.

I mean the players currently not playing is a big red flag and the ESL should be a bomb to this game when it comes to the PvP side of things. Anet will have to keep the PvE players happy but it looks like even that has gone in the 50/50 side of things.

OriOri.8724:

kdaddy.5431:

OriOri.8724:

Good. Hopefully now they will focus on PvP balance for the average player, instead of ESL level players.

I dont know where you placed last season but i finished almost at plat2 .

The last PvP match i did THIS season looked liked this.

The idea of balancing for weak players wont work and it doesnt work the other way either.

I wished i taped it because i would walk into 1 vs 3 fights and they couldnt even force me to use a rebound.

That’s why I’m always asking them to balance around the average player. They need to be balancing around high gold (making an assumption about the distribution of players here). Not around bronze, and not around ESL. You will never have good balance if you balance around either end of the spectrum.

I disagree to a point,

You cant balance around gold players simply because they are not good enough. In season 5 i fell from plat 2 to gold 3 back and forth simply because i could carry in gold 3 but not in plat.

Imagine the ESL players, the things gold players struggle against is not the same and at times i dont understand everyones complaints on the forum.

With that said i try to understand, IMO the HOT specs were terrible design so i can see new players hating DH to the highest level.

Ive been a really big advocate of Anet fixing HOT spec lines (which wont happen) but to me thats how you fix PvP and WvW.

I mean ESL brought out alot of the ugly in GW2. The first season we had a ESL team quit 10 sec into a match because of the poor balance. Anet sped up the game 100X.

In the last season The Abjured got screwed a tiny bit because of the broken down state. Which they have addressed, something we the community needs to worry about.

Is in future patches, since Anet is now focused on PvE only. The community needs to worry about the elite level players and the builds they come out with and they wont be shared. Now instead of the DH issue you run into build issues where your getting blown up with no elite level game play to look at why.

For me the ESL scene was good exposure to see the different styles of PvP. Hot killed that but we still got to see elite level rotations on the map and with skill use.

Thats gone and now there is nothing a gold player can do to learn to get better even though there is now no reason too.

Mr Godlike.6098:

Sorry dude they won’t say a thing…gw 2 pvp is completely now officially abandoned by devs.

+1

Its all up to you Olrun good luck

OriOri.8724:

Good. Hopefully now they will focus on PvP balance for the average player, instead of ESL level players.

I dont know where you placed last season but i finished almost at plat2 .

The last PvP match i did THIS season looked liked this.

The idea of balancing for weak players wont work and it doesnt work the other way either.

I wished i taped it because i would walk into 1 vs 3 fights and they couldnt even force me to use a rebound.

@ Azukas.1426

What are you posting?

Seriously we had more build diversity individually with cele ammy, we had better diversity team wise and we had more weapon options among classes.

Im not going to repeat what i said about d/d ele because you seemt o only read what pc you want to argue.

But once again yeah its HOT specs that created the bunker meta. WHen else can you say it was successful to run 3-4 bunker builds on a team? TOL 1 and HOT Por League S1.

Here ill post a a pic for ya.

And so we dont get into a argument about skill level. Its happened a few times to me since S2.

I would say more then it did prior to HOT since not everyone wanted to play d/d ele but plz post amulet removal as a example of cele being the problem. As we sit here in S6 with people not playing.

Silv.9207:

Then, the main problem of the Opener was that he’s forced to play as a healer?
A lot of classes had they’re role in this game and still have one.

The ele was a insanely bunker class with insane dps and heal, something that have to not happen again.
The problem is that that class was strong and funny, with basicly no counters and able to kill everyone. And eles, obviously, wants to turn back to be on top tier.

I’m sad but now the ele have to chose between heal/support and a dps build that let him vulnerable as every other class, with still a lot of defensive and really viable skills that grant him to survive and flee if he need.

Your statement is incorrect.

Necros counter eles in 1 vs 1 as well as 1 vs 1 warriors.

Also Fivegauge got into it with a player claiming to beat ESL players all the time, on these forums.

On engy five gauge destroyed the other player playing d/d ele.

The problem with cele only came with d/d ele which was top 3 in sustain ,damage, and team support.

I dont think asking for ele to have a role that isnt heal bot is to much to ask as well.

Azukas.1426:

kdaddy.5431:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

kdaddy.5431:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Spartacus.3192:

it was removed because it was OP especially on an Ele.

It was removed because it was used almost on everything after HoT and matches were extremely long and boring.

Oh and was OP on ele vs noob.

Was it 2014 or 2015 where the winning pro league team had 4 d/d eles and 1 thief on their team?

But please, tell me more how d/d ele was only OP against noobs…

Everyone is forgetting what really happened.

Yes the ESL league after the WTS had 4-5 d/d ele.

The op was talking about scepter, as someone who played staff ele it was not OP.

Cele D/D ele was OP not the other builds and a small damage reduction, a shorter burn duration (which would of been a small condi damage reduction) would of pushed this out.

All that happened was combo D/D ele could put out more damage/ have higher sustain/ with the most mobility in game.

Only on D/D, making it a tiny bit less of everything would of made it fall in line with everything. I mean ORNG and TCG took the Abjured to the limits when only playing 1 d/d ele.

People on this thread are acting like the CELE meta was straight crazyness when many builds didnt require a cele amulet once they introduced the 6-6-6 format.

Things like DPS warrior with rampage, Power necro, burn guardian, and power medi guardian benefited from the 6-6-6 format during the cele ammy meta.

Seriously quit acting like the amulet was OP when it was literally 1 build d/d ele which was better then staff ele ( dagger/dagger > staff) and the OP asked for scepter/dagger which was also less then dagger/dagger.

But the cele amulet was factually and objectively OP. There is just no arguing about that.
Celestial had higher stats than any other amulet in the game, fact.
Classes which would make good use of all the stats that cele offered were OP and became the go-to classes for anyone serious at PvP, fact.
D/D cele elementalist is just the most infamous example, but it wasn’t the only class/build that benefited a little too much from the celestial power creep. Warrior, mesmer and guardian all benefited from the celestial power creep.

You know something is wrong with your game’s balance when you have dozens of amulets to choose from but the go-to amulet for half of your classes is celestial.

The illusion that something is wrong because a majority of players are using is false. Heck a team of non cele amulet players could beat a cele amulet team if they were better and in FACT before the D/D phase i was on a FA team who which ran 2 cele rangers, 2 cele engy and a shoutbow warrior and we lost to a better balanced 2-3 cele with 2 burst players.

That is balance when you can pick and choose a style of play, choose utility skills and elite skills that are different for a certain situation.

Please show me the build variation on warrior, ele, rev from S2-S5.

Show me the great change since cele has been removed.

So you use a game you lost where 6-7/10 players were using the Cele amulet. Kinda proves your counter’s argument not yours LOL.

Lots has changed since it’s removal. Games actually end instead of go the entire alotted time to end 150-123.

Not really,

A team full of cele players lost vs the team with 2 or 3. The person who took control of the FA team had the idea like many in this thread that cele was complete aids who could not be beaten. Not taking into account all the other factors which can lead to a good team comp.

Also the games that didnt end happened with HOT. It wasnt because of the Cele ammy meta. It was because of HOT specs.

I still have this pic because people will stay and that bubble and try to say things that things that are not true just because they want to say something is OP.

Right now no one wants to play PvP, there are people on the leader board with gold 2 rankings.

Ill throw out the best team comp i played in, we won some TOL matches and lost to the team in the finals vs the Abjured in TOL 2.

It was a maruder mesmer, maruder thief, Myself on a power warrior (beserker) a bunker guardian (not cele) and a cele ele.

It only needed some small tinkering. There is a huge time gap between the cele engy- d/d ele and the OP d/d metas and most confuse them as the same thing.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

kdaddy.5431:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Spartacus.3192:

it was removed because it was OP especially on an Ele.

It was removed because it was used almost on everything after HoT and matches were extremely long and boring.

Oh and was OP on ele vs noob.

Was it 2014 or 2015 where the winning pro league team had 4 d/d eles and 1 thief on their team?

But please, tell me more how d/d ele was only OP against noobs…

Everyone is forgetting what really happened.

Yes the ESL league after the WTS had 4-5 d/d ele.

The op was talking about scepter, as someone who played staff ele it was not OP.

Cele D/D ele was OP not the other builds and a small damage reduction, a shorter burn duration (which would of been a small condi damage reduction) would of pushed this out.

All that happened was combo D/D ele could put out more damage/ have higher sustain/ with the most mobility in game.

Only on D/D, making it a tiny bit less of everything would of made it fall in line with everything. I mean ORNG and TCG took the Abjured to the limits when only playing 1 d/d ele.

People on this thread are acting like the CELE meta was straight crazyness when many builds didnt require a cele amulet once they introduced the 6-6-6 format.

Things like DPS warrior with rampage, Power necro, burn guardian, and power medi guardian benefited from the 6-6-6 format during the cele ammy meta.

Seriously quit acting like the amulet was OP when it was literally 1 build d/d ele which was better then staff ele ( dagger/dagger > staff) and the OP asked for scepter/dagger which was also less then dagger/dagger.

But the cele amulet was factually and objectively OP. There is just no arguing about that.
Celestial had higher stats than any other amulet in the game, fact.
Classes which would make good use of all the stats that cele offered were OP and became the go-to classes for anyone serious at PvP, fact.
D/D cele elementalist is just the most infamous example, but it wasn’t the only class/build that benefited a little too much from the celestial power creep. Warrior, mesmer and guardian all benefited from the celestial power creep.

You know something is wrong with your game’s balance when you have dozens of amulets to choose from but the go-to amulet for half of your classes is celestial.

Why would we call it a imbalance?

Look at the amulets we have now? Tell me the difference?

You are like the person who says the 2-6-6 system is better because of better build opportunity but everyone knows that if you wanted to play at a high level you had top run a 0-0-2-6-6 build or a 0-6-0-4-6 build. ( ele and necro)

So what if 3 classes on a team cele. On every team you had at least 1 power, most times thief. 2-3 cele amulets and 1 X build whether you wanted the burn guardian, 1 vs 1 necro etc etc.

The biggest difference between now and then is his skills. Every skill you play now is more defensive with low possible CD.

You use to see players use rampage, battle standard, bulls rush for warriors. You use to see Lich form and eles who would use Elite glyphs.

The illusion that something is wrong because a majority of players are using is false. Heck a team of non cele amulet players could beat a cele amulet team if they were better and in FACT before the D/D phase i was on a FA team who which ran 2 cele rangers, 2 cele engy and a shoutbow warrior and we lost to a better balanced 2-3 cele with 2 burst players.

That is balance when you can pick and choose a style of play, choose utility skills and elite skills that are different for a certain situation.

Please show me the build variation on warrior, ele, rev from S2-S5.

I love seeing how condi build for warrior is the exact same as a power build except with a different amulet where as prior to HOT the beserker warrior was a huge thing as well as a cele warrior. The difference once again is they used 2 different trait lines and 4 different utility and elite skills.

Show me the great change since cele has been removed.

Alex Shatter.7956:

I think the real problem with PvP is much more severe: the game is old and people are bored. This game released in 2012-ish and the adrenaline is gone. PvE is expected to age gracefully because it attracts long time fans and casuals, but PvP appeals to short term players who have by now discovered other, newer, better competitive games.

I can tell you right now HOT killed it.

Right before everyone started running full d/d ele teams. I was on a PvP team for AG around week 30-40.

My team missed 2 because the AG tournament filled up and i missed 2 to allow the Alt to get some games in.

Thats how good it was, that 10 full teams every week signed up for the Semi- Pro level and 2 Free Agent teams. Thats not including the ESL scene with many players/teams starting new teams and what not.

The WTS happened and Anet dropped the ball big in not nerfing D/D ele. This went on for a few months creating players not wanting to play as much.

Then HOT came out and OMG this was a team killer. If you were on a team and you couldnt play mesmer/ele/rev you were not playing.

Its not the games fault, mechanics are great, animations are pretty good, and conquest is a great style of PvP.

What kills a PvP ( and WvW to add) is build diversity. This was huge, the fact that 1 team comp is so much superior then any other it kills game play. My guild team used to run a showbow warrior, bunker guardian with a DPS necro. We could beat other comps if we could coordinate and if they werent a ESL premade team.

Cant happen now, not even a little.

I have almost 10k games played i did because it was fun, even when there were no rewards. Anet came out with a crappy reward system and that kills motivation for new players.

This games poor build diversity kill average to above average players.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

Things are not going alright with WvW – we won’t ever see a new season and if you think PvP balance is in bad shape, head to wvw to see how to really f up balance (both skill balance and player balance).

Playing both pvp and wvw, I can see that a lot more development effort has gone to the pvp area than to wvw. Vastly more. Is it effective effort? I’m not sure it is, but its clearly there.

As someone who has played both more then PvE.

I agree from the perspective of effectiveness.

PvP was Dwayna awful for Seasons 1 & 2. Seasons 3 and 4 were better but they still had major issues since the HOT specs ruined what balance was therefore Anet had to go all the way back and fix things like down state health. (which still isnt working as well as it did prior to HOT)

WvW has gotten alot of small changes but once again they didnt think about WvW or PvP when coming out with HOT specs, with mallyx revs taking condi from team mates only for necros to epi them and kill full zergs instantly. Currently the trapper thief has gotten on peoples nerves which once again is full HOT specs with HOT runes.

You can make the legit case that Anet has attempted to fix PvP more then WvW but every decision they have made has turned off the PvP community.

When you had 2 things that were so good PvP and WvW before HOT. Then Anet throws out a terrible WvW maps and now 6 straight seasons of PvP where the majority of players absouletly hate the meta, style of play as well as build diversity. I dont know how we judge these 2 things.

Also Anet said they wouldnt do another WvW season because there was a huge drop off in players after the season occurred.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Spartacus.3192:

it was removed because it was OP especially on an Ele.

It was removed because it was used almost on everything after HoT and matches were extremely long and boring.

Oh and was OP on ele vs noob.

Was it 2014 or 2015 where the winning pro league team had 4 d/d eles and 1 thief on their team?

But please, tell me more how d/d ele was only OP against noobs…

Everyone is forgetting what really happened.

Yes the ESL league after the WTS had 4-5 d/d ele.

The op was talking about scepter, as someone who played staff ele it was not OP.

Cele D/D ele was OP not the other builds and a small damage reduction, a shorter burn duration (which would of been a small condi damage reduction) would of pushed this out.

All that happened was combo D/D ele could put out more damage/ have higher sustain/ with the most mobility in game.

Only on D/D, making it a tiny bit less of everything would of made it fall in line with everything. I mean ORNG and TCG took the Abjured to the limits when only playing 1 d/d ele.

People on this thread are acting like the CELE meta was straight crazyness when many builds didnt require a cele amulet once they introduced the 6-6-6 format.

Things like DPS warrior with rampage, Power necro, burn guardian, and power medi guardian benefited from the 6-6-6 format during the cele ammy meta.

Seriously quit acting like the amulet was OP when it was literally 1 build d/d ele which was better then staff ele ( dagger/dagger > staff) and the OP asked for scepter/dagger which was also less then dagger/dagger.

Its not just the rewards but alot of vets are not playing as well.

Im fully sitting out as well as a number of players i know because simply put we dont like the HOT spec lines and Anet idea of balancing is more boons and potentially more sigil play.

The only way to get Anet to actually balance the game is for it to fall flat on its face right now.

If the HOT maps can carry the game then i guess it time to move on but i personally would love for them to bring everything back down and do a complete reword of the HOT specs and raids.

Mr Godlike.6098:

I don’t see point of this vid here . WP isn’t even in serious pvp.

It’s sad to note that gw 2 community kinda see him as it’s voice and he like anet is also silent about current state of pvp population….

I think he did rather well in the PvP season.

He was in plat with a core burn ele build.

When i saw that i was like ohhh he must be pretty good. I then saw that he was clearly getting some matches where the players where not that good. I saw him playing only once and he was able to free cast all game as a squishy.

When i was in the top 250 and in high plat i ran into a ton of high level players. And stuff like “target the hammer rev” is said and people do it. Or noticing a rifle warrior, as a group you attack him to start his passive endure the pain and switch targets then go back to him.

A player who stood out so much to me was Edison on thief in S5. When on his team i literally won every fight i was in there with him on even fights and when against him it was so clear that he knew who the weak link was or a player running a sub par build and he would farm them all game.

I do find that frustrating, WP seems to be a pretty good player but it seemed obvious to me that he was always on the + side of teams and wasnt really expecting to carry. Even on his PvP video, he is playing burn ele and at no point is he being targeted and he is running willy nilly away from fights which is something you see in low gold and lower matches and not something you see in plat or higher matches.