i guess anet was so affraid from the torment AA change that they nerf the whole conditions mesmer spectrum
i agree PU trait in fine
but why DD trait got 2 nerf. first the avoidable is too much as the enemy can just rush you without being punished and spammable build of blind and evade will take you down much easily
so ppl will now have to use PU as a defense mode against them
the seconds nerf i can agree as it nerf clone passive creator gameplay
also if lets say i fight s/d or s/p thief i need to place my clones far from each other thus making also the shatter condition even worse as you wont be able to shatter fast
so 1 nerf above pretty much will push the condition mesmer build diversity to PU build again
so they nerf the dmg of the DD trait by around 140*7 =980 dmg for each clone death (in 33% chance) so 340 dmg nerf in average while adding the ability to miss by dodge/blind/block
so if you might PU and you want to kill the clones and burst the mesmer you can use
as thief – stealth to aoe blind and kill them
as guardian – block and kill them
etc
might be that pu will have more hard time now to do dmg but will have the same abilities to stay alive
i will correct you little bit
Don’t be to rough with him, he mains thief. He’s prone to getting sour whenever anyone else uses stealth based defense. Heaven forbid anyone apply condition or direct pressure then go hide……
Yes I main a Thief, haven’t played it much lately. And I mainly play S/P, and as you know this does not include stealth. I got bored by the stuck bug and other bugs related to teleports/Pistol Whip plus Immobilize.
So I play Mesmer 2x shatter a lot more, and I like playing a spec that rewards positioning and paying attention.
Looking at your replies, I take you are interested in finally trying to play mesmer when this AA torment patch arrives?
have you tried to land AA with scepter?
my main also is a thief and play all builds even when they weren’t so common
i can assure you that the AA torment wont be much QQ in pvp area
maybe in PU build while roaming . but fight against those build these days
i at start said NO
but
i went to the mist to try to land full rotation with the scepter while dueling
i can assure you its hard 4 seconds so will it buff in pvp or roaming spec – NO
will it be more useful in group play – might yes if your AA will stack torment like any other profession which stack bleed/poison with AA (necro/warrior/thief etc)
p/d thief – base 4 seconds 1 stack of bleed – 140*4= 560 dmg mid activation so in 4 seconds its 2,240 dmg
s/x warrior – base 8 sec bleeding and cripple rotation = 100*8*2 = 1,600 dmg fast activation so in 4 seconds warrior can do 8 stacks of 8 seconds which is 6,400 dmg
sc/x necro – base 5 sec bleeding and poison rotation = 140*2*5+250*4= 2,400 dmg mid activation. so in 4 sec its around 3,000 dmg
sb ranger – base 3 sec bleeding – 140*3=420 dmg but fast activation so around 3,000 dmg in 4 seconds
p/x engi – base 2 sec bleeding aoe – 140*2= 280 dmg fast activation
mesmer scepter – the slowest activation rotation
1 full rotation which take 4 seconds will result in
a. first torment for 2 sec
b. second torment for 4 sec
c. clone which apply 2 sec torment
so potentially 8 sec of torment 100*8= 800 if not moving and 1600 if moving
which as you can see the lowest dmg from AA in 4 seconds and the slowest thus the most dangerous skill use
so maybe in pve area you can spam it or in zerg fight at close range to tag
Why you call it shatter if you don’t use shatters
i know its seems bit different playstyle as to power shatter
power shatter can do fast huge spike with 2-3 shatter skills
BUT
conditions do dmg over time thus you cant spike as the power shatter
i tried several approaches
1. big clones spike as with power shatter – result was that i could do 10 stacks of torment and confusion but it got cleanse right away and i had from that point to play defensively and without pu or stealth its hard against those spike direct dmg . sure i could kill some but again…defense problem
2. shatter at the right moment even with 5 stacks of torment and confusion makes my enemy play defensively and give me more time and room to play right. also i tried to always stay with 3 clones to use heal skill and to confuse my enemy on my location giving more time to stack more condition with staff
as is this video each time i use slow motion you can see me using 1-2 shatter usually after my enemy use his cleanse or get below 50%
also i use #2 scepter on close range – i notice ppl dont notice if they AA hit you when you are in their face as they dont see the animation of me raising my hand thus taking 5 stacks of torment
also this build setup enable you to play defensively and offensively
if enemy kills your clone he gets conditions
if you shatter he gets conditions
so each way he gets kittened
so here is the build and a short video in hot join pvp
build used 0,6,2,0,6 combined shatter conditions and on clones death conditions
you might can stack pretty high above 10 so you condition dmg is high for pvp arena
i mainly use it in wvw but i like hot join to test builds (in wvw i use perplexity runes)
for post patch the ie trait gonna buff this build concept but the scepter AA wont be much for the shatter build (maybe for the phantasm ou pu build)
i had trouble with d/p thieves and med guards mainly
short tactic: i try to stack conditions with clones death and critical dmg until my target cleanse or get 50% hp than i shatter to create massive confusion and torment stacks
hope you like it
here is post patch short video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91WeY2mVAmw&feature=youtu.be
i have been asked to put tutorial of condi shatter mesmer so i did fast one from yesterday hot join fights i had
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi-5sY32_cg&feature=youtu.be
(edited by messiah.1908)
so preparing myself to post patch with condition shatter
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7alknpMtFpxTNcrNCuBZqJg6fMkTW6AMgfB-TJRHwAFeCAJLDA4iAEa/BA
so far d/p thieves and meditation guardians are main problem but maybe after patch ie will stack faster conditions
in wvw i go with perplexity runes (torment just make duration longer so while perplexity stack confusion)
i usually do 10 torment and confusion
consider mod mantra with good aoe conditions dmg and cc
The pressure this spec is going to give, will give so much room for passive defense that you practically don’t use any “Mesmer” mechanics. So here’s your chance to finally play mesmer without having to worry about losing or dying!!
Here I will create a guide for you, so you can watch movies while winning 1v1’s:
- Take Scepter / Torch
- Take some funny defensive amulet
- Take PU
- Take preferred signets and decoy (including Signet of the Ether) for max passiveness
Okay now we’re set up.
1. Spam 1 for clone creation and torment – after 4 seconds rotation of AA any class and build will kill you so stage 2 wont come. good luck with that
2. Let your target follow you and die, or let him stand there facetanking conditions
3. Use optional skills to gain stealth if you feel like doing something special
4. Destroy the pride of mesmer
i will correct you little bit
i will try to upload some hot join pvp gameplay versus several classes so you can judge for yourself about the shatter dmg
so far i like it
build use 0,6,2,0,6 which use both clones death and illusion shatter
so when i shatter i can do around 1k torment, 1k confusion, 0.5-1k bleeding and random condition like burning poison etc
Mtd should use smartly or you lose it effectiveness if your enemy cleanse
start with staff to harass than switch to scepter to block than your enemy will use cleanse which is the right time to shatter away and win
the past two weeks i have try several build of condi shatter and also tried to consider scepter AA in the fight
my main problem kittenter as i had rarely the chance to do full rotations with the scepter to create clones while the shatter abilities alone enable me to do nice dmg and pressure to not heavy condi cleanse spec
also if i manage to create clonse i wanted to shatter then thus they dont have much chance to do torment dmg
so why yes to shatter condi?
1. new idea to play with
2. new form and tactic playstyle
3. its so nice to see 10 stack confusion and torment alongside ticking
why not shatter condi?
1. same as pu idea most ppl will be able to run away from you
2. with no boon when sealth you’ll be much easier to chase and burst especially by d/p thieves
3. still low contribute to a group fight
thus my main conclusion the scepter AA was given the scepter mesmer to use in group fight and not while roaming
i think the “buff” will be noticable in pve and wvw group fight where mesmer have the 4 seconds to apply AA more freely than pvp or smal scale roaming
so i have tried several shatter builds and pu standard build to test the scepter AA .
torment shatter build variant (pre and post patch)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsf7alknpRtFqxTNcrNSuBZqIg6e8kSW6DEgeB-TFyCABAcEAwR9nU0PglyvLOJALv/gEPAgxUCSKAYmDA-w
(you can go with mantra also and staff for more defense abilities and works too good with torment runes+mantra as heal skill stack 2 torments stacks every 10 seconds
staff variant is 0,4,4,0,6
you can go pu variant also 0,0,6,2,6 if you like it and perma vigor)
and standard pu build also
had 1v1 and 1v2 against thieves mainly d/p and s/d, hambow warrior , bunker guardian, rangers, power and condi necros, d/d ele, shatter mesmer but no engi
thieves are the hardest, ele are the longest
1. i rarely had to use the scepter AA to hit or to create clones to shatter them or the kill opponents with pu build
2. also the scepter AA is too slow about 4 seconds full rotation.
so the shatter build will rarely need the clones to do torment dmg
i can stack 5-10 torment stacks so to do 1-2 more with AA while moving dodging is not so useful risk/reward .maybe as an opener attacks
with pu i have more room to apply AA but with all the stealth again same problem 4 seconds to create clone to do 3 torment stacks… (also ppl dont like to fight boring pu build)
so even if i thought torment on AA may be too powerful on 1v1 situation you hardly gonna use it
BUT
in 5v5 or 10v10 when i had more room to play around i use more AA on the periphery and create more clones so in group fight i manage to do more dmg (and with torment it will be higher)
so i guess anet wanted to buff the condi mesmer in group fight rather the roaming play style and while confusion dmg got nerf in pvp/wvw they went to torment dmg which on group fight ppl moving always
so if this is the case and ppl really wont find 1v1 AA scepter torment to powerful the mesmer in group fight might get the chance to be viable a tiny bit more
build for shatter condi mesmer which i have tried with good success
0,6,2,0,6 mantra mtd shatter with torment or perplexity runes. stack confusion and torment at will with cover of bleeding vulnerability weakness
0,4,4,0,6 staff oriented torment applier rabid armor
0,0,4,4,6 staff/scepter oriented with full dire armor (so strong with perma vigor and regen)
0,4,0,4,6 scepter oriented rabid armor
pu oriented variant
0,0,6,0,6 / 0,0,6,4,4 pu scepter build
and more
just went to my mesmer and try the condi shatter torment confusion bomb
i eat thieves without even try and its shatter build which make me to be active and not like the pu passive game play
with 10 stacks of confusion and 5-8 torment the thieves melt down fast
the only problem i had is d/p build which took me by surprise and had the advantage 50% wins
so anet think what will happen if i’ll have clones that use torment they will put 3 stacks and than shatter for 11 more while pu build will be more devastating
i think you should change it to confusion which more mesmer oriented
regarding pu mesmer i dont think it will be make them more op from the point there are.
its just give them more ability to play with.
remember what you do when you fight pu mesmer? you walk away nice and clean
but this buff will give the shatter condition more room to play to apply more constant conditions
but i wish they would change it to confusion instead of torment
torment – does average dmg when not moving and good dmg when moving
confusion – does nice dmg when dodging and using skill
confusion is more mesmer play style oriented to stop enemy to use his skills
torment should be to the necromance or thief
so far my shatter condi mesmer does nice 5 stacks of torment and 10 stacks of confusion when shatter but it need more buff as i can push enemies to 50% hp but get easily cleanse
so if it was 5 stacks of torment and 15-20 stacks of confusion it will prevent my enemy to dodge and use skills more often give me more room to play against zerker builds
pu souldnt able to put 10 stack of torment it means his clones just sitting their hitting you freely. you just need to hit them from range
but shatter condi will be able to do so but more risky build than shatter.
for group play so support and harrass with some conditions i would go like this
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpUttqxQNUrNCuBdyUsCU3jdcySGgfB-TpgWAAw+DcZAA
or 0,0,4,4,6 for more staff icd
also i guess u mean wvw and not pvp as you use perplexity
more cd on glamour skills, blind and confusion
you must have viel with you
no torment
yes confusion (which is condition belong to the mesmer)
also the speed attack with the scepter is bit slow so any burst profession will able to down any pu mesmer using the scepter long enough . the power of the pu is by doing dmg from his clones while being stealth so to pull out scepter clones will be hard to the pu mesmer without taking risk
confusion stack should be able to done only in the second attack not the first one so not overpower it
so far i manage to take 1v1 thieves although with staff it was much easier as the confusion and their burst does nice dmg and torment prevent them to move
1v1 d/d ele i manage to burst him 50% hp in 3 sec as he just rotate skills and constant move around but i had to play defensively between shatters
but you right its not like p/d thief combo which can stack 5-8 different conditions but the icounter does massive dmg if i use it when they burst
so basically going to staff and act like pu mesmer without the boons help
do you think the new gm trait which make illusion distortion on creation would make them valuable in team fight as they wont instant death and i can fast shatter for aoe dmg?
is this build valid before the patch and after the new patch?
currently i am using perplexity runes which works fine but torment with mantra activation could buff the torment stacks along side with AA after the patch to the roof
in wvw it feels like the pu build . if they dont fight you , you hardly dmg them
but in pvp it was pretty good (sure had trouble against hambow and other meta builds)
i would give the trap passive effect while not being used like (like signet) but while signet give more passive effect traps would give more aggressive effects
like
every hit has a 33% chance to blind for 3 seconds
every 5th hit will immobilize/chill for 1 second
every hit has a chance to apply torment (buff the ranger like the mesmer)
thus the condi ranger will have the ability to use traps while passive and burst while active them
d/p – spamm blind with #3 and AA when they go hammer
SB – to kite when they use LB. dont try to do heavy dmg with your sb rather evades and AA
s/d – had hard time versus hammer even with few evades they can stun me eventually
d/d – its harder than d/p but doable which need more patient and kite around with bs and aa and cnd to blind aoe go sb and immobilize and kite again
against meditation guardian use just sb to kite around till he’s below 30% ho and go d/x to burst down
both build are harder since the thief got dmg reduction while not getting defense buffs
i would buff the heal skills to not just remove rather transfer the conditions on you to foes around you 130 range thus further give the thief the option to heal while being aggressive
as i see it pu condi still be pu condi even with the torment buff they wont stay long enough to use scepter AA to benefit the torment. again wont be usefull in tpvp and wvw group play only 1v1 if you stay and fight them
but the shatter condi can be fun to apply 10 stacks of confusion and torment but again niche build which might be used in tpvp (maybe bunker points)
and with the illusion getting distortion for 1 sec you can create them and shatter on zerg if you fast to apply confusion and torment stack but again condi versus zerg get cleanse too fast
I guess you play one of those p/d condi thieves that dies to a single putrid mark.
you got to be kidding… with 3k armor and 20k health with many ways to cleanse conditions i hardly die but hardly can contribute to the group as other power thief
[
in group fight i can admit i see more p/d condi but if you run with group they should easily cleanse. sure the p/d can catch you and kill you but as any other build
A p/d condi thief that chases you is harmless, he has no way to apply pressure while chasing. The best way to give a P/D condi thief the middle finger is to just run away. That guy went into WvW with his super awesome 1v1 spec and now you have the kitteniness to give zero kittens about it.
if i play p/d condi and i catch the backline memser/necro/ranger/ele 90% i can down them in 1 burst. dont forget they wont have full hp while i have full burst. sometime the ele can run away to his group and cleanse. but after i burst i have 36 seconds with almost nothing just pewpewpew
for 1v1 you will see more p/d builds but with little pressure the thief go to SR and you can go away or stay to kill him. most of them (at least the ones they i met) bit clueless how to burst
for me its 30% s/d, 10% d/p, 5% d/d, 55% p/d
so far in group fight i see d/p mainly
in group fight i can admit i see more p/d condi but if you run with group they should easily cleanse. sure the p/d can catch you and kill you but as any other build
still power build are more rewarding than ever and more fun (although i like the condi variant myself)
i have just tried my mesmer again with the shatter torment trait
took a fellow thief with 15 stacks of torment and 8 stacks of confusion
after patch it will be 20 stacks nice….
so wrong anet so wrong
you will lose players and the community
pretty much all classes got some nice buff (mesmer and ele omg)
what the thieves get is nothing and spice it with few nerf
we still not so usefull in pve and wvw group fights
in pvp arena dp or s/d needs more high skill and all other build unviable
ANET common mesmer get AA torment and on our p/x we dont get nothing like power state (so u admit you can buff the pu mesmer even higher but the p/d not)
mesmer could pull now easy +10 torment stacks with confusion , also their power build buff with mantra aoe , ele buff nicely with vulnerability aoe etc…
is it the stealth mechanism which hold you back – if so pls take it back or neft it
i would be much happier with 1 seconds stealth and more evades possibility and more buff than nerf after nerf
if the thieves community will vote for stealth nerf will you consider to buff us as we deserve
they just make any condi mesmer OP with confusion and torment when shatter and easy reapplied
opponents wont be able to move or use skills at the same time
they should put confusion on the seconds hit for 2 seconds only (scepter#2 is already too strong)
so far i think the mesmer got the most love from anet
hey newly ranger friends
this is my first video after getting my ranger to lvl 80
with some of the community advices had much success 1v1 and some 1v2
hope you like it and i hope to improve
build used
2,6,6,0,0 and 2,0,6,6,0
so i decided to try venom share with a havoc group on WvW today.
it’s OP… against a single target, which 5 people should be OP against anyway. any other situation and your complete lack of damage and survivability (even if you spare a slot for a good stunbreak like shadowstep or roll for initiative) makes you a liability. you will be focused down and you will be unable to react.
point is, you can’t be a good supporting character if you can’t stay alive to provide that support. venom share forces us to sacrifice that ability to stay alive through overreliance on traits (less than 10 points on venoms and you won’t be providing enough to warrant using them).
my takeaway is i don’t know, maybe venoms could sustain a buff to their untraited versions without making venom share OP.
5v5 full venom is op and viable – if targeted any thief will have hard time. venom share thief will have to be more carefull
10v10 still usefull but have to time right the use because conditions get cleanse easily by shouts
20v20 here the thief start to be bit less helpful and should focused on more power burst build or basic venom build without share like 2,0,6,0,6 on the periphery
but maybe if the group will focus build on power alone the thief can share his condition dmg and healing power to support them when needed and to help them burst. only time will tell
so you suggest venom to bo signet or mantra
i would just buff the venom like
add more 200 power to your next 3-5 attacks – so it scale with power builds
add more condition duration/power to your next 5 attacks – scale with condi build
add more healing power to skelk venom – buff the heal skill
your next 3 attacks will crit
it will open new world for hybrid build which will buff when needed
or as other suggested
use f2.3.4 key for venoms/traps and give new skills for the thief
the main problem of the thief which anet cant seem to handle is the stealth
true community may qq on it but an average player by now knows how to deal with itYou deal with stealth by guessing/predicting, mainly, and a bit of luck. That’s not a good game mechanic given that it can’t really be overcome with skill.
not so true … the stealth isnt the problem. the ppl who think they can just auto attack and kill are!. so anet want to grant their wish its not guessing its knowing your opponent play style
tip: if thief went to short stealth get rdy to be burst so move move move and cc around you . or count 3 sec and dodge.
if thief went to SR or cc/aoe the area or get back for 15 sec range
believe me it will help you 80% on the time
p/s i went on my newly condi ranger and took 2 dp thieves just with traps and entangle when they stealth to BS HS chain. luck ?
and regarding group play . what should power ranger go with to be useful in team fight (20v 20 and up and 10v10 )
i hate to admit that anet fell to understand venom utilities
2 venoms cause condition dmg – torment and poison. the poison mainly can say wont affect much with condition dmg rather than the -33% on healing . so basically 1 good condition venom
2 left venom are cc – chill and immobilize with dont need condition dmg to take affect better.also regarding healing power only leeching venom benefit from it
so again it seems anet took venom to very nich nich nich situation in 5v5 or 10v10
as in larger fight conditions get cleanse fast so power base dmg is more suitable
but if group understand it and the mechanism and how it works it can do wonder on the first push but i can say the same on any other profession in the game
Don’t rain on ArenaNet’s parade. The changes to the Venom Aura is brilliant and awesome even though you’re 100% correct that it will only affect one useful venom (torment) and a useless venom (leeching).
You should be patting them on the back for a job well done.
i think you know me as i using venoms from the beginning and the venom share concept in group fight b4 ppl knew it.
i love venoms but to take a major change to a thief and put it on a very nich build
for me its small change.
if the buff the dmg on the p/x to create another usable build i call it a more larger change
i hate to admit that anet fell to understand venom utilities
2 venoms cause condition dmg – torment and poison. the poison mainly can say wont affect much with condition dmg rather than the -33% on healing . so basically 1 good condition venom
2 left venom are cc – chill and immobilize with dont need condition dmg to take affect better.
also regarding healing power only leeching venom benefit from it
so again it seems anet took venom to very nich nich nich situation in 5v5 or 10v10
as in larger fight conditions get cleanse fast so power base dmg is more suitable
but if group understand it and the mechanism and how it works it can do wonder on the first push but i can say the same on any other profession in the game
but dont underestimate the power of condition – it may open new line of group builds which consist thief and while the power warrior use his sword which does bleed he will stack also torments which together can yield massive burst with conditions and direct dmg
(edited by messiah.1908)
the main problem of the thief which anet cant seem to handle is the stealth
true community may qq on it but an average player by now knows how to deal with it
thieves need some good group utilities to be helpful with wvw and pvp
this is why i think they are making the change in venom aura which i dont think many group will take thieves just for it (maybe as nich spot) as the thief will be a sitting duck every 36 sec icd on venom
also warrior getting buff on their GS dmg , mesmer on their scepter etc while thief dont as against stealth mechanism
so thieves still be playing s/d d/p and p/d with no mega changes , still 1v1 mainly in wvw and not group play in wvw and pvp as other class do it better
conclusion: nothing will change
ppl you forget few things:
condition duration wont be share
immobilize is cap at 9 stacks and dont need condition dmg (dont forget ranger will have thier elite in 48 sec duration instead of 120 so more CC is coming to the game)
poison is for the 6 hit with leeching venom so your heal will be around 3k with (healing power) to every ppl in your party so they can burst more freely
torment stacks can be devastating above 8
sklelk venom can heal you party for 1.3k every hit for kittens to 5 more ppl so its another good healing source while bursting
this is why i mix healing power for leeching venom
the enemies will need to time their cleanse as if rotate the condition burst right the enemy group can find them without cleanse rdy (not in zerg rather in 20 group fight)
sure it make the thief more vulnerable but more as utilitis bot (like mesmer in group fight with viel)
thanks for the input i will look into yours suggestions
so the basics are good ? or i need to o bit more glassy and more crit chance?
:D
would you think after the patch this build can work in wvw roaming and group play
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNMQJARTjEq0xaLLmsQ1ag9gadAUAndrhw9Wcwt9Jr4ErA-TVCEABaq+DEPAAFOCAdpEUKlf5s/QH6CA4QA8wFAgMAMTA-w
pet:
jungel stalker – give 5 stacks of might for 19 sec
give vulnerability in it AA so you do more dmg average 3-5%
can be switch with raven for blind, swiftness, and good AA dmg
wolf – basic
runes – pack for perma fury so my crit chance wont be so low
if you feel you armor is too high can go more zerker and change runes for strength or hoelbrak or privateer
also good conditions management and after elite skill change it can be even better
I can imagine it.
But that knockback on AA is too OP
these what i imagine in first place
thanks!
but a warrior who can perma stun you in 3-4 skills isnt OP ?
so a chain AA which can be much slower and/or with less dmg might work as enemies will have harder time to kill thieves (even rangers now can laugh at thieves)
but mmmmaaaaaa.. it is not like anet gonna listen but if they do thief needs more defense weapon and more group oriented weapon
so like the hit and run idea maybe protect and run idea too
(edited by messiah.1908)
Sry I didn’t mention it
For wvw group play
And as you mention the group will go power base so they will get my condition state
here is what i theorycraft for the new patch for group play
so i share 870 healing power and max 2100 condi dmg and 10 might stacks with group
so my group can focus on power state
but i must be very oriented to my location so i wont get burst down with no messure to escape beside cnd
go full dire p/d and d,d second set
go full venoms share build and stay at back.
take swap sigil like geo and hydro as both good in aoe dmg
you dont need speedbuff in group play as guardian ele will take care of it
share you venom at the right time and look for the necro/mesmer/ele and burst on them and all over again .
dont stay in melee range or you’ll be dead
in 1vx take out 1 venom for breakstun skill and change heal skill
how about a leap where u spin your staff above your head like a helicopter and fly off into the sunset?
that would be just op
Cufu hello friend. miss our roaming time …
p.s
its you who inspire me to try ranger as i remember your roaming abilities
i am in deso now so…