(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
Swinging the olde banhammer? That sounds like a funny thing, because I came back 7 months later to find that banhammer hasn’t been used at all. I rather have a thorough fix of banning people who waste supplies/moving defensive siege (some trolls shift defensive trebs to opposite directions).
This griefing has been going on for 2 years. Coming up with a “nice” solution doesn’t fix things. You ban them from coming back into wvw.
After quitting for 6 months and coming back to check up on what the devs come up with, it’s another round of nerfs and bad balancing for thief and some other professions as usual. I hold no expectations for whatever content they have and will continue to abstain from this terrible game. Maybe when they finally learn how to balance it better I can come back and have fun.
And I’m glad to know that people understand thieves are useless in wvw (I participated in GvGs to know the class better) now other than a gimmicky annoyance. Everything that I predicted for thief back then came true, making me realize the devs are most likely never going to fix the class because they don’t know how to.
useless in WvW? Maybe in mindless zergs. But a single roaming thief can harass, annoy, distract a much larger group, making it a net gain for your server. They are great at kill people semi close to spawn. This is also a huge boon, because usually when someone get wrecked 3 times in 15 minutes trying to catch up with his group, he’ll log out and not WvW for a few days- another net gain for your server.
Thieves are totally awesome in WvW. if pvp is your main thing though OP than stay away from thief.
thief in WvW: Possibly best class? easily most fun, if WvW is your main game mode you’ be crazy to not have a thief. If wvw zerging is your thing- POWER NECRO
in pvp: Possibly worstest? the pvp game mode conquest discourages stealth usage which is our main form of defense. Roll engi if you want to obtain a high in rate easily.
I forgot to mention that I was in one of the busiest servers, where roaming is usually pointless and zerging is highly encouraged. Anyone who “roams” for fun is usually seen as not contributing during server resets. To actually make sure that I was at the top of my game, I actually created a calculation system to serve my own purpose and had repeatedly confirm my observations in GvGs and practical field battles in WvW.
While I am certainly not an elite player, I am very confident in my calculation system (although it might be seriously outdated now because of 2 major changes) and the strategies that I had came up with using it. Well, it’s all in the past and there’s really nothing else to talk about.
A top level GvG right now has no real place for a thief and even if there is, it is seriously limited to an elite player who doesn’t make mistakes in his skill set. An ordinary player like myself will not be able to do that, so I retired.
After quitting for 6 months and coming back to check up on what the devs come up with, it’s another round of nerfs and bad balancing for thief and some other professions as usual. I hold no expectations for whatever content they have and will continue to abstain from this terrible game. Maybe when they finally learn how to balance it better I can come back and have fun.
And I’m glad to know that people understand thieves are useless in wvw (I participated in GvGs to know the class better) now other than a gimmicky annoyance. Everything that I predicted for thief back then came true, making me realize the devs are most likely never going to fix the class because they don’t know how to.
(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
I was considering whether to post this here, but well, you probably won’t get to see thieves at their former glory anymore and there’s probably little to no GvGs thief videos.
I’m not sure whether warrior out damages condition, but your calculation is grossly wrong. Imagine if you claim to have a salary of 100000 dollars, but in actual fact it was only 80000 dollars, maybe 60000 dollars after tax, would the people around you feel annoyed?
For condition damage to only require condition damage for the most part, while physical damage requires ferocity, precision and power to work together, I would think that something is wrong when a PVT warrior where VT is in the tank area out-damages a pure condition damage engineer.
The reason why I stay out of this physical damage > condition damage is precisely because I don’t know anything about condition. The only thing I will correct is other people’s mistakes on the physical damage portion, and also tell the condition people to back up their statements so we know what is true and what is not.
11760 damage from PVT? Now I think dancing monkey doesn’t know how to count either. Take a look at the wikipedia, the entire Axe AA sequence takes 3.6 seconds, therefore you can only do 2 AA rotations (I saw something about 7 seconds).
I used my specialized spreadsheet (that checks damage against armor) to calculate full ascended soldier damage, and it does 9200 damage with 2 fully hit AA sequence. If the player dodges the final chop damage (we all know that dodging an axe AA really means there’s already a distance dodged away and the AA sequence might as well be ruined, but that’s another story.), the damage is only 7400.
Take in mind, I looked at shimmer’s build and calculated against 2600 armor. And I gave the warrior fully traited into power and crit line for stats based calculation. Incidentally, I gave warrior Fury as well, and I rounded it up with a 30% crit chance. Also, I checked into precision line for warrior, but it actually gave me lower DPS, so I guess at 30% critical chance it was more useful to up your critical damage instead. I also gave the warrior a bit of zerk stuff, ending up 189% critical damage.
Now, I have never used engineers in my entire 4000 hours game time (I have mostly ignored condition based gameplay, which is why I didn’t create a calculation system for condition, and also admittedly don’t know much about condition based gameplay), but I do know the previous crit damage era can break the dire players and I’m pretty kitten sure soldier’s axe warrior with no traits on him can do 11760 damage over 7 seconds. Now, I’m not so sure. And learn to calculate with a better system, dancing monkey.
PS: If you add protection to the player, 2 AA = 6k damage or 4.8k damage (dodge last chop)
(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
“Maybe condi isn’t OP” is false. It’s OP because power crit has been nerfed, and thus it’s OP because it’s way better than the power builds right now. That 15% nerf on ranged damage is big enough to affect things in WvW, and sigils runes are not helping much. Zerk professions have no HP whatsoever, while dire gear has vitality toughness condition damage nicely packed up.
I doubt you have the numbers to prove dancing monkey wrong anyway.
The nerf is not 10%. Coming from a player who runs a complete glass/zerker build, the overall dps loss is about 25%. The auto attacks (non-crit) are about 15-20% lower and the actual crits are 30-40% lower. This was no where near a 10% dps loss for full zerker builds, not even close.
This is definitely not accurate. The nerf was absolutely limited to critical damage. Your non-critting attacks are doing precisely the same amount of damage they did before the patch.
While I also don’t agree with the nerf to critical damage, I do like to have accurate arguments. Yours doesn’t even flirt with accuracy.
Im sorry, but it is 100% accurate.
I was well aware of how much damage I was doing with non crit attacks before the patch and it’s clear their is a damage reduction on those of 15-20%. I’ve spent hours in WvW after the patch and it’s distinctly noticeable.
That is unless they nerfed Ele’s damage across the board on top of the crit nerf. If they didn’t, then raw damage has taken a hit as well. It could very well be a case of your damage being low to begin with and the 15-20% isn’t noticeable to you. To me, a pre-patch auto attack non-crit consistently doing 2000-2300 now consistently does 1500-1700, I’d say is a crystal clear nerf.
“Im sorry” what.
That you don’t bother to pick up a calculator or use a spreadsheet? There is no 25% DPS loss, you’re pulling numbers out of nowhere. And you made me login just to scold you.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvE-Calculations-Ferocity-DPS-loss
There’s no need to thank me for helping you link a calculation. And there’s no mention of any raw DPS being changed in the patch. You must have been hitting ascended geared players all day for that “DPS nerf”.
(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
1) Empirical data VS Factual data.
ur first mistake is right here, data collected from the opinions and experiences of players would be labeled anecdotal data, empirical data would be collected with some form of technical methodology—with a measure
factual data…u prolly mean statistical data thurr
l2research
Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.1 Empirical evidence is information that justifies a belief in the truth or falsity of an empirical claim. In the empiricist view, one can only claim to have knowledge when one has a true belief based on empirical evidence. This stands in contrast to the rationalist view under which reason or reflection alone is considered to be evidence for the truth or falsity of some propositions.2 The senses are the primary source of empirical evidence. Although other sources of evidence, such as memory, and the testimony of others ultimately trace back to some sensory experience, they are considered to be secondary, or indirect.2
In another sense, empirical evidence may be synonymous with the outcome of an experiment. In this sense, an empirical result is a unified confirmation. In this context, the term semi-empirical is used for qualifying theoretical methods which use in part basic axioms or postulated scientific laws and experimental results.
The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.12 Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim; it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims.345
Anecdote
An anecdote is a short and amusing or interesting account, which may depict a real incident or person.1 Anecdotes can be as brief as the setting and provocation of a bon mot. An anecdote is always presented as based in a real incident2 involving actual persons, whether famous or not, usually in an identifiable place.
- Wikipedia
For lack of a better sentence describing builds that are capable of handling itself against pistol whip builds (health + boons vs direct damage), I chose the term “factual data”.
(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
OP, you can’t dismiss opinions due to bias. That’s a problem a lot of people have… A proposition can be true or not, even if the person making it is biased towards the truth/falsity of said proposition. So say I were to tell you “I’m good at working on computers” say for a job interview, would you dismiss it because I could be lying due to my personal bias towards getting this job?
Instead of dismissing opinions, what we need to learn to do is weigh the available data in support of opinions. Just dismissing every opinion is stupid, and this is a game after all… their prime concern is making sure people have a positive opinion of the game.
I did write “Mostly disregarded.”.
Yet another post from someone whos not even in the top 1000% telling people whove played over 4000 tourneys that thieves arent as op as we think this is why the game is how it is, anet are listinging to people like you and not listening to people like Lordrosky, he has 3 accounts that have been number one in solo que, a really good win ratio only reason people dont listen to him is because hes angry at how the game is progressing or not as the case may be, thats passion about this game Anet are ignoring, hes the best necro in the game and he knows what hes talkin about, hes one of the only people who dont say biased opinions all he wants is this game to get balanced, people like you need to stop posting your useless and always outdated opinions and leave it to people who know whats going on, oh and btw i said 3 months ago pistol whip was op, noone believed me and now look what happened.
So what if he’s the best necro? Doesn’t mean he knows anything about thieves or how to balance the game or even the thief profession. Pistol whip had a 15% increase in DPS with the reduction of aftercast, bringing thieves directly back to the part where they had a full 1 second stun (thanks to the rounding up of stun time) to do the same amount of damage. Makes me wonder why you didn’t complain about it 6 months ago.
Just before the december patch, pistol whip was utter trash 0.5 seconds that did 2/8 slashes before you can dodge. Way before that pistol whip stunned for 1 second (rounding up of stun duration) while doing 4/8 slashes before you can dodge. Now that ANet brought it back to 4/8 slashes, you’re complaining about it?
Pistol whip is in a good spot and the initiative system is almost a spamming system (S/D spam 3, occasional 2, we all know it annoys the kitten out of everyone because the evade frame was over 9000, including me when I see a S/D player in the past). If you want to change that skill, you need to improve the other sword abilities, including headshot, IS/IR.
(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
Miss Murdock,
Hello, I have a few criticisms on this topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Re-Pistol-Whip.
1) Empirical data VS Factual data.
Empirical data obtained from forum players should be mostly disregarded, due to subjective biased opinions from various players and professions, namely the lightest/glassiest builds, Elementalists/mesmers/mighty morphin power rangers! (sorry, couldn’t resist jabbing at that pun).
Nowhere did I see anyone giving out any mathematical numbers on the thread. I do hope you know that’s a known fact, that many players are disgruntled and irate over the thief class. If you don’t believe me, please take a look at https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Thief-stolen-Whirling-Axe-is-OP/first and see that Thumbs up, topic creator’s with a star post.
Thieves have one of the highest direct damage, be it backstab or pistol whip, the classes that find difficulty in mitigating that direct damage will always protest over how strong the thief class appear to be. I am certain that once upon a time, mesmers were very strong in putting out high dps.
Finally, rather than seeking opinions, you should actually take a look at top PvP win percentage. You should check the top ranking matches and see if thieves contribute to the winning rate. That is a far more accurate representation of the current situation rather seeking forum users claims.
2) Questionable balancing.
One of the major concerns I have is how class balancing is done. Right now, you make me feel like ANet is balancing the game around the opinion of players, not on skill + theoretical numbers offered by the game. Why do you seek the opinions from the forums and not the ranked tpvp players?
Another question I have over the previous patch PvP balancing is how one of the devs stated thieves were able to freely stomp players with infiltrator’s return, something that drew the players’ ire on the fact it was shadowstep with a 50 seconds cooldown that stomped players “freely”.
Your post here in the SPVP forums doesn’t make me any more confident in the team that’s “balancing” the current meta now.
3) Skill balancing.
And for my final gripe, thieves are in my opinion quite complex. They are using a unique initiative system, not based on cooldown but a pool of limited resources that need to be managed. It is in my opinion that players should not be able to influence devs.
At best it should be devs asking thieves “What sort of buffs you want to see to change the meta in sPvP”, while internally devs will crunch numbers and make adjustments to the current issues in sPvP.
4) I firmly believe that…
A large majority of the players here are biased against thieves.
5) In conclusion….
Do not actively seek players opinions but ask QA testers who are skilled to actively play the professions. Biased players are bad for balancing.
Personal opinion (maybe biased?).
Thieves S/P builds are at a comfortable spot to stop bunker meta. The problem is how other lower health professions like elementalists require better access to mitigate direct damage, while being able to handle bunker meta too.
Thank you for reading, if you did.
Please, this is your daily routine.
Mine was losing 4 fully upgraded keeps to 40+ man zergs when we had only 15 people to defend. Maybe you should try to play on not a blob server.
That is another problem altogether. Your problem is caused by the discrepancy of numbers. Maybe you should try not to complain when you’re playing in a small server that can’t pull out numbers.
The AC is the only way for an out-manned server to even hope to defend it’s towers and keeps from a zerg which only relies on numbers to get the job done. We get rid of that, or if we nerf it, this game will then favor larger servers even more that it already does.
So your solution is no solution at all? Because you don’t have enough players, you place ACs every day with 1 hour long treb wars?
Sorry, rather than solving the problem, you’re actually exacerbating the issue of having insufficient population. Why? Because nobody wants to play boring waiting games for doors to go down. PVD isn’t fun, but that’s the problem of smaller servers, you claim that your non-prime time has zergs PVDing. And if ACs doesn’t go down or stop super rams within 5 seconds of 5 arrow carts raining?
Omega rush. Woah, you see the problem there? And then you complain, Omygah, omega rush imba!
……..Sigh.
On bigger servers, coverage is relatively balanced and the PvD problem is solved. If anet manages to combine servers, population problem is solved.
Gate Of Kaineng.
Darkhaven’s rest.
Etc.
Please, this is your daily routine.
Mine was losing 4 fully upgraded keeps to 40+ man zergs when we had only 15 people to defend. Maybe you should try to play on not a blob server.
That is another problem altogether. Your problem is caused by the discrepancy of numbers. Maybe you should try not to complain when you’re playing in a small server that can’t pull out numbers.
Don’t blame players, blame Anet. Superior AC is the only reliable response for 1g omega golem rush. Just like treb behind gates is the only thing what can repel 5 superior rams.
They broke siege balance with bringing it to Trading Post and giving additional buffs, while ignoring objectives (gates, walls). Have fun blobbing.
1.7 G omega rush * 10. Breaks gate down, destroys ACs, lose half of attack force, and when allies come back gate is back at 50%. Enemies waypoint in every 3 minutes. This is your daily routine.
Waypointed garrison, hide behind ACs for hours, constant 3 mins waypoint and once the doors break down they repair it immediately to prevent allies from getting in, with new ACs on the roof. In history, I don’t recall a gate to be repairable within seconds. This is part of the reason why things are so silly and kittened. This isn’t off peak hours but prime time, and the zerg size is roughly the same.
If you really think golem rushes “work” you must be silly. You can throw 20 super golems and still fail because the enemy can just waypoint in over and over with warriors throwing warbanners on lord.
(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
So sad that PvD’ers every one in a while experience a little bit of resistance…
It’s surprising this was made AFTER the AC LoS was nerfed. If you are getting killed by AC’s, you can always build omegas to take them out and have them range dps the gate OR you can always catapult or treb down a wall out of AC range. You can even have multiple different classes that have the ability to AoE an Akittenil it goes down.
Unless you think once in a while resistance = turtling in keep Every Single Week If Not Every Day.
Primetime every day, 10 + ACs decorating the walls and houses in bay and hills. Shameful behavior of completely hiding gates. 2000 damage * 50 players. 5 super ACs = 10000 damage per second, you might as well be equipping your force with rifles machine guns.
Within 2 seconds bodies will be littered on the floor, and I can imagine Devon going “Wow! That was an exciting fight. ‘Grin.’”
Day in, day out, “some” guilds/players will hide behind them. And if we try to clear them with trebs, they just portal bomb them. This was 6 months ago, 3 months ago, and apparently players still uses ACs every single day and drag it out in a battle of 5 hours attrition.
I got sick of it 6 months ago, 3 months ago, and I’m still sick of thess ACs. I’m wondering if anyone still likes Devon’s statement.
Blah blah blah, you’re comparing apples and oranges. Are you really serious to talk about the functionality of Sword mesmer? Leap, blurred frenzy, mind wreck. This skill is not used as a defensive tool. Your closest comparison should be phase retreat.
That skill is INSTANT cast, with a cooldown of 10 seconds. Note that YOUR phase retreat illusion casts Winds of Chaos, repeatedly as long as the clone is not killed. Take in mind, thieves IS/IR needs 5 initiative to cast out (5 seconds to regain initiative), both of which takes from a shared initiative pool. OF all the ridiculous things you want to talk about you choose to a “1v1 thief” easily destroys mesmer/ele.
Look at the topic. It says WvW. In an area where a mere 0.01 second interrupt will cancel a thief IR because of the LONG CASTING TIME or 1 second stun will instant KO you, IR with delay is NOT OKAY.
Gosh, people, read the topic.
Ahm, you might wanna take your own advice. We were comparing sword #2 to the two similar skills: phase retreat and illusionary leap.
OF all the ridiculous things you want to talk about you choose to a “1v1 thief” easily destroys mesmer/ele.
Isn’t even true. 1v1 mesmer is as strong as any duel spec. I was mainly refering to tournament pvp where thief is over competent for it’s role. Yes the topic is about wvw but we all know that this kind of pvp/wvw split is out of question.
1) Exactly why the split is out of question? PVP revealed =/= wvw revealed. I expect wvw to have 0 instant casting time. Whether you can use it when you’re stunned is another thing, but the bare minimum is you can absolutely escape a telegraphed stun animation if you spot it. Adding a 0.5 seconds on top of after cast attacks makes it impossible to use it.
2) I never compared Infiltrator’s strike to illusionary leap. Somehow you took it upon yourself to compare a mesmer clone that functions with hybrid builds to add on all sorts of condition. Even better if you’re skilled enough to pretend to pressure the thief into using an evade to escape the leap .
3) Over competent for pvp how? Does picking a thief = auto win? No. Picking a warrior hambow, decap engineer, bunker guardians = them over competent professions. You want to change meta, start with your own profession and ask for buffs. I don’t play as much PvP compared to WvW, but I know certain professions are in a bad place. Thieves are somewhere in the middle, maybe middle upper tier.
Actually Ele’s were a bunker build in pvp and they got nerfed the hell out of them
How everyone cried that they couldn’t kill eles (note – couldn’t kill, not that eles were killing anyone, just very hard to clear off points), Then they completely gutted healing numbers,SoR and RTL with no compensation in terms of other forms of survivability or damage and suddenly you’re left with the same class with none of the killing power and now none of the survivability….
How did they expect that to play out I wonder. Unfortunately as an Ele you can’t spec zerker and expect to survive more than a few seconds due to the awful disparity in starting stats.
All around bad planning and bad balancing.
It’s all thanks to posters like OP whining about balance when they don’t even know the meaning of it. That said, the dev teams aren’t exactly the sharpest tools to balance things. We know something is up when they don’t even know what some of the thieves abilities do (Devs reasoning: Infiltrator’s return = free stomping, so we nerf it, what a joke, it’s the utility skill called shadow step that allows us to stomp.)
Mesmer isn’t in a great spot right now, but it’s shameful how many players refuse to L2P.
And empirical evidence from “common opinions” isn’t any better. Unless someone pulls numerical facts about how the thief has an overall mathematical advantage, I can only write L2P statements, because tourneys right now are not thief meta, but warriors winning tPvP.
I could say the same thing but I will indulge you. Bringing up tourneys is pointless in this game because it’s casual and anet balance dev said once that they had to balance the whole game based on all tiers of skill level.
Also, people complaining about thieves are better than you and me and they actually play those tourneys.
Strangely it goes back to the part where you don’t nerf thieves, and buff other professions up to a certain level where it meets the level where it breaks hambow warriors (stun, switch weapon, press 3).
I can’t explain it any better to you. S/D thief has been nerfed to the point where it is not effective anymore for winning competitions. Any other builds that thieves have are basically trash and yet the only thing that other professions want to see are more nerfs.
Ask for your professions buffs. Make the 2nd “warrior” meta, because this game is so stale with thieves being FORCED to use zerk stats. I want more options but the only thing you know how to do is ask for nerfs, and you don’t even understand where the problem is.
Mesmers used to have protection applied when they cast chaos storm, I personally thought that was a great answer to burst damage, but instead of asking for that change, you went to state it was thieves burst that is at fault.
Pvp is not about duels. Check pvp forums to see common opinions on thieves.
And empirical evidence from “common opinions” isn’t any better. Unless someone pulls numerical facts about how the thief has an overall mathematical advantage, I can only write L2P statements, because tourneys right now are not thief meta, but warriors winning tPvP.
(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
Mainly because some guy stated “thieves glassy builds are the best in glass builds”, which is just as silly as saying “Bunker guardians are the best in bunking, better than other professions.”.
Thieves have good survivability only if the player is very skilled. The profession probably has one of the highest skill cap, and most players aren’t able to react properly to thieves burst damage + counter that skill cap, that is why you have so much complaints and gnashing of teeth.
At the highest competitive level, thieves aren’t really OP.
/end
He gave an example regarding glass thieves which is completely on topic. Giving an example about bunkers is different and kind of irrelevant.
So what are the top glass damage dealer classes in competitive PvP? Thieves, Shatter Mesmers, and Scepter Eles. Rifle Power Engineers have somewhat died out already. I wouldn’t call zerker HamBow warriors glass because they still have around 2.6k armor along with 21k HP because they will always put at least 20 in Defense trait line. Out of all 4 classes, thief is the most survivable simply because of its stealth mechanic. You don’t need skill to press 5 then 2 (D/P weapon set) then disengage if the fight is not going to your liking.
http://youtu.be/ZboUAtJSIt8?t=4m46s
Hambow needs SO MUCH SKILL to press ` and press 3 to drop a thief.
Learn at the gameplay itself seems that you need
Two warriors or more, and maybe a mixture of other
Play-ers to beat thieves.http://youtu.be/ZboUAtJSIt8?t=10m12s
PS: The commentators don’t know what they are talking about on the 2nd link. That was not retaliation, but pure damage from the guardian/warrior. Maybe someone wants to claim whirling axe is OP now.
Mainly because some guy stated “thieves glassy builds are the best in glass builds”, which is just as silly as saying “Bunker guardians are the best in bunking, better than other professions.”.
Thieves have good survivability only if the player is very skilled. The profession probably has one of the highest skill cap, and most players aren’t able to react properly to thieves burst damage + counter that skill cap, that is why you have so much complaints and gnashing of teeth.
At the highest competitive level, thieves aren’t really OP.
/end
PW is such a skillful build to play.
Apparently pressing ` and ‘3’ is so difficult. Much balance required for make thieves a loot bag.
Going off topic again. This is about Thieves and other Glass Classes (Warriors are too tanky to be counted as a glass as long as they have 20 points in Defense). Everybody knows how OP HamBow is (though there are lot of Warriors who are still in denial), there’s no need to put them in discussion. One class being OP doesn’t justify another class being too-strong-but-not-as-strong.
Let me get this straight. You think that a glass thief which does relatively okay in spvp and wvw to be the best kind of DPS? So condition necro, hambow warrior, engineer beating a DPS thief is not okay, but HEY LET’S NERF THIEF anyway!
Either you buff thief to be as OP as hambow, condition armored necro, or removing engineer’s abcdefghijkl conditions/dps, or you nerf the meta.
IF you find eles/mesmers to be not as good as thieves, you buff it up. Whining because the thief can burst you down in 2 seconds because you’re a light is not an excuse. It merely means the builds for the professions aren’t diverse enough.
Finally, the devs are “balancing” eles by giving some buffs to them. Considering how they made warriors to be numbingly OP, I won’t cross fingers to how the game is balanced.
Nerf thief? HAH. You don’t even understand the meta, and heck you don’t even understand what you’re talking about. Thief =/= OP in SPVP. Other professions continue to do better, and thief is somewhere in between.
/END.
Hambow warriors are harmless. Melandru + stability = useless warrior. Condition warriors though. Well we all know that condition damage in general needs a major nerf.
Mainly because some guy stated “thieves glassy builds are the best in glass builds”, which is just as silly as saying “Bunker guardians are the best in bunking, better than other professions.”.
Thieves have good survivability only if the player is very skilled. The profession probably has one of the highest skill cap, and most players aren’t able to react properly to thieves burst damage + counter that skill cap, that is why you have so much complaints and gnashing of teeth.
At the highest competitive level, thieves aren’t really OP.
/end
He gave an example regarding glass thieves which is completely on topic. Giving an example about bunkers is different and kind of irrelevant.
So what are the top glass damage dealer classes in competitive PvP? Thieves, Shatter Mesmers, and Scepter Eles. Rifle Power Engineers have somewhat died out already. I wouldn’t call zerker HamBow warriors glass because they still have around 2.6k armor along with 21k HP because they will always put at least 20 in Defense trait line. Out of all 4 classes, thief is the most survivable simply because of its stealth mechanic. You don’t need skill to press 5 then 2 (D/P weapon set) then disengage if the fight is not going to your liking.
http://youtu.be/ZboUAtJSIt8?t=4m46s
Hambow needs SO MUCH SKILL to press ` and press 3 to drop a thief.
Learn at the gameplay itself seems that you need
Two warriors or more, and maybe a mixture of other
Play-ers to beat thieves.
http://youtu.be/ZboUAtJSIt8?t=10m12s
PS: The commentators don’t know what they are talking about on the 2nd link. That was not retaliation, but pure damage from the guardian/warrior. Maybe someone wants to claim whirling axe is OP now.
Mainly because some guy stated “thieves glassy builds are the best in glass builds”, which is just as silly as saying “Bunker guardians are the best in bunking, better than other professions.”.
Thieves have good survivability only if the player is very skilled. The profession probably has one of the highest skill cap, and most players aren’t able to react properly to thieves burst damage + counter that skill cap, that is why you have so much complaints and gnashing of teeth.
At the highest competitive level, thieves aren’t really OP.
/end
PW is such a skillful build to play.
Apparently pressing ` and ‘3’ is so difficult. Much balance required for make thieves a loot bag.
(edited by LoneWolfie.1852)
Any reply from devs on this? Is it safe to use TP now?
Mainly because some guy stated “thieves glassy builds are the best in glass builds”, which is just as silly as saying “Bunker guardians are the best in bunking, better than other professions.”.
Thieves have good survivability only if the player is very skilled. The profession probably has one of the highest skill cap, and most players aren’t able to react properly to thieves burst damage + counter that skill cap, that is why you have so much complaints and gnashing of teeth.
At the highest competitive level, thieves aren’t really OP.
/end
This image accurately demonstrates why you’re right to bring a warrior into any game mode
Just in case anyone is confused over the image, it’s rock paper scissors warrior.
Agreed that some of the steal skills are really kitten awful, worst of the lot is the Engineer’s.
It’s true, any other class running a glassy build will auto-lose to a glassy thief. It’s extremely hard to kill something that is stunning/blinding you and stealthing away the moment you have a chance to retaliate.
Thief is the only class that can get away using a glassy build in PvP and still have plenty of survivability.
People need to stop with the braindead reply of “stealth can’t capture points”, it’s not about capturing points, it’s about roaming and causing unbalanced fights. Also having a guaranteed stomp on 5 out of 8 classes with blind field adds further to their effectiveness.
Hi, show me a bunker thief that can hold points as long as a hambow warrior or condi engineer or bunker guardian.
People need to stop insinuating thieves can play something else other than a glassy thief. SHOCKKK.
It’s true, any thieves running a bunker build will auto-lose to any other professions bunker build. It’s extremely easy to beat bunker thieves that have no access to stability and decapping when you enter stealth.
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i use 10/30/0/30/0 full zerker and i can easily 1v4 because i play spvp and wvw players are so bad Kappa
Yes, and we all know which 5 letter word describes you perfectly.
Putting aside the balance that has gone to ****, ride the lightning (while warrior’s rush takes the cake for trololol you can’t catch me), increasing revealed to 4 seconds and this sword 2, are the worst nerfs. Balance my *.
Devs, why not take 30 minutes, go to WvW with a sword and fight in the large scale battles and tell me how to survive (WOAH THIEVES HAVE NO STABILITY TRAITS/UTILITY SKILLS 1!!!111 wink wink REMINDER?)
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Before they nerfed it we made a bunch of suggestions of alternative ways they could nerf it (reducing the return range to 600, reducing the length of time the rollover was available, etc.) which were all ignored because the last balance patch discussion was more of a warning of what ascended weapons to not make rather than them wanting real feedback. This balance patch preview felt different and a different person handled it, so I suggested they revert it in that thread since it seemed like they were actually listening. You might create this thread in the class balance forum since it would get more visibility there.
+1 for reversion. Sword 2 is very clunky and UP compared to mesmer staff and sword 3 (swap is still an actual stunbreak fyi). I compare it to mesmer since they use the same type of magic and similar tricks.
Oh my god whahahahahahahahahaha xD. Inflitrators strike UP compared to swap or phase retreat? Really ? :P
Just in case you haven’t noticed, IS is an instant cap closer that also immobilises, does not need los and teleports you vertically. It is broken as kitten.
Still, I agree that the IR should be made back to 0 because it’s so terribly clumsy and annoying to use now. The attack itself however, should not teleport vertically and should have slower cast time so that people can react to it.Sorry, I’ll specify. IR is UP compared to swap and phase retreat. iL might not give you the vertical movement and the clone from iL sometimes does weird zigzags, but swap is also instant cast, has a longer immobilize, has an actual stunbreak on it, and is available every 7.2 seconds when traited. Phase retreat can also be traited for low CD and has the added benefit that it can cause a warrior to burn adrenaline when used because they’ll connect with the clone. I’ll stand by my statement the IR is UP compared to swap and phase retreat, but next time I’ll use the name instead of “sword 2” to avoid confusion even though were specifically talking about IR.
Illusionary Leap is not instant because the leaping clone must be near the target for the snaring to work, and it’s leap animation is fairly obvious. The leap is very unreliable as well and this skill can’t be used as a cap closer at range greater than 600. Then again, compared to IR + IS, this skill breaks a stun (but IS removes a condition) and has 2xleap finishers (while IR + IS has none).
That said, I still don’t know if IR is so UP compared to these two mesmer skills. It has greater range of 1200 and can be fairly easily used to teleport vertically, unlike swap or phase retreat (possible but not practical). When taken into context of both the initiative system and IS, IR becomes a very powerful skill.
It is also well known that s/X thief easily destroys any non bunker mesmer or elementalist and so I don’t think s/X needs a buff. IR could be reworked to make it less annoying to use, but something else should be nerffed to avoid power creep and increase of the strength of s/X weapon set.
Blah blah blah, you’re comparing apples and oranges. Are you really serious to talk about the functionality of Sword mesmer? Leap, blurred frenzy, mind wreck. This skill is not used as a defensive tool. Your closest comparison should be phase retreat.
That skill is INSTANT cast, with a cooldown of 10 seconds. Note that YOUR phase retreat illusion casts Winds of Chaos, repeatedly as long as the clone is not killed. Take in mind, thieves IS/IR needs 5 initiative to cast out (5 seconds to regain initiative), both of which takes from a shared initiative pool. OF all the ridiculous things you want to talk about you choose to a “1v1 thief” easily destroys mesmer/ele.
Look at the topic. It says WvW. In an area where a mere 0.01 second interrupt will cancel a thief IR because of the LONG CASTING TIME or 1 second stun will instant KO you, IR with delay is NOT OKAY.
Gosh, people, read the topic.
I ordered 100 crystalline dust, cancelled it and didn’t get money back. I can confirm there is a bug in TP.
Its fine. Go watch Sizer play. Great for juking and repositioning both yourself and your opponent.
What sort of nonsense are you writing now? Does Sizer play WvW? Show me how he survives in WvW.
WvW =/= sPvP.
Lol, learn to actually deal with some risk in your gameplay for once in your life.
I can clearly see why the “whirling axe is op” gets so many thumbs up. Too many players here jumping on the “nerf thief everything” bandwagon.
If I wanted cheese I could have gone DP. Here I am, trying to give WvW thieves another option WITHOUT stealth gets shot down.
Well done.
A necro hit me for 8 k condition damage from one attack in WvW when I didn’t clear the conditions. OP much?
Here’s my problem. Thieves have no native access to stability, other than a 90 seconds cooldown daggerstorm and rune access via Lyssa.
A 0.5 seconds cooldown in a WvW environment, that would be nearly lethal to any low HP players. Is it really so overwhelming good that IR has to be changed from 0 seconds to a 0.5 seconds ability in WvW?
Infiltrator’s return, used to cost 0 seconds to cast (just like mesmer’s staff, instant teleport). Anet then made it 0.5 seconds (ZERO. FIVE.) making it a ridiculous skill set that allows no survivability for thieves. Had it been 0.01-0.05 seconds cast time, this skill might not suck as bad, but in the case of WvW this will be utterly insane and useless, a nerf beyond reasoning.
Just to remind devs, THERE IS NO STABILITY skillset for thieves. Either give us a stability ability or don’t touch this skill at all. Gosh.
Basically thieves need that.
I ordered crystalline dust 80 * 20.10 silvers, I canceled it and it didn’t refund me… (I doubt anet cares to refund that, but I want to know if there are other people like me.)
Anyone else got such cases?
Sword AA has higher damage output compared to dagger. But backstab and heartseeker makes DD feel it’s stronger.
Indeed, next leaked patch has traps buffed. But if the traps aren’t triggered by illusions, pets, minions and their “insert horrible mum joke to display the utter dismay upon learning traps are thieves buffs”, maybe traps will be useful.
Eles getting major overhaul, warriors getting 5 seconds weapon swaps, what’s new?
warriors have always had 5 second weapon swaps?
5 seconds sigil usage on weapon swap, forgot to add that in.
User swagg must be eating too many bananas recently to suggest ridiculous changes. Cooldown on a thief. Less damage. Useless mechanics. I’m sure as many other people have told you, please stop posting, you’re wasting kilobytes.
Indeed, next leaked patch has traps buffed. But if the traps aren’t triggered by illusions, pets, minions and their “insert horrible mum joke to display the utter dismay upon learning traps are thieves buffs”, maybe traps will be useful.
Eles getting major overhaul, warriors getting 5 seconds weapon swaps, what’s new?
In case we’re living in another planet, can any devs explain how a trap thief can contribute to PvP and WvW?
Edit: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/RE-Leaked-patch-notes
Uhoh. Leaked patch notes are fakeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee? Well maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell.
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The only way to get anet to change their mind is a absolute boycott of their game until they remove it. On the other hand, people won’t do it because they will just simply switch to their next option, condition damage.
In any case, I don’t think I want to play the game until the devs start reading the forums. (We all know how WvW season 1 turned out.)
I just want to say Phantaram only posted a few times here, and is simply posting here in hopes of people agreeing with him to get thief nerfed (once again). L2P, stop whining about how OP thief is and watch how other players beat them. I’m sure other players have already posted SD thief losing.
If anything thieves need a buff, and if there are any other professions that can’t beat it, they too need a buff, not more nerfing because SD is a pile of **** and is gimmicky as heck now.
So many ridiculous whine opinions on thieves for the past year. sPvP thieves are a joke, and if you’re in WvW, stealth traps counter thieves no problem. Just get 5 people to rotate their stealth traps and problem solved.
/end thread.
But thieves can still be beaten. Easily. Ultimately the same approach stands, just direct DPS the thief down (condition players will have trouble fighting stealth thieves). They are significantly weaker than warriors (I have even seen a ridiculous warrior who transform into a deer in wvw to run away from 20 people chasing him, while managing to down a player on his own).
Nope, there are some thieves on Piken or Kodash(PvP Guild from the tournament, I think it was “Ten Seconds To Rage Quit”) and they just killed everyone and everything in 1 vs 1 fights on the obsidian sanctum. Warriors couldn´t even touch them.
You are seeking balance in WvW? Are thieves invincible in zerg fights? No? Moving on.