Guild Wars 2

Ephemiel.5694:

http://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-2-players-rightly-upset-by-heart-of-thorns-pre-purchase-scheme/

The Gates Assassin.9827:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

1. No power GM traits in Curses. I’d still like to see terror moved and another GM take its place.
2. Still no projectile reflect
3. Still no blast finishers
4. Still low mobility
5. No way for Reapers to defeat thieves. One thief could literally kill 5 reapers without getting hit. No stab + no effect of chill on thieves + slow attacks = thief wet dream.
6. Loss of access to torment if we take reaper… torment… the condition invented JUST for necros in the first place…

1. Low Mobility – By design.

By design the necro contradicts anets class description as an “attrition” based class.

In other words, “design” hasn’t applied for 2 years with the necromancer.

JonPeters.5630:

Keep in mind that some professions are harder to master than others. I believe Necro is the hardest, opinions may vary, but just keep this in mind. No we arent ignoring Necro, but once people start mastering DS, I’m afraid of how strong Necro will be. Give it some time for the average player to learn these things. For example early on in LOL master yi was dominant until people learned how to counter him.

DS does not scale in team fights…..the necro won’t get far if left in current state or hardly buffed with specialization.

Btw try looking at nemesis youtube vid to understand the key flaws with the class.

Provost.6210:

Show Spoiler

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Should old merriment be forgot,
and never thought upon;
The flames of love extinguished,
and fully past and gone.
Has thy sweet heart been crushed beneath,
ArenaNet’s bold heel;
That nevermore you’ll gain avail,
or from these insults heal?

For Auld Lang Syne, My Dear
For Auld Lang Syne
That nevermore you’ll gain avail,
For Auld Lang Syne

There was a time you stood among,
the other classes strong;
But now you’ve been nerfed to the ground,
how did it go so wrong;
Thy staff is cleft, thy rod is frail,
Thy traits to now be shot;
Though maimed you only suffer still,
And now to be kiboshed.

For Auld Lang Syne, My Dear
For Auld Lang Syne
Though maimed you only suffer still,
For Auld Lang Syne

Gone are the days you were fun to play,
you’re now a two-shot chump;
Jack-of-all-trades, master of none,
all others hold the trump;
Though versatile, you can’t sustain,
thy burst is but a fart,
Into the wind, thy future dreams,
Now take a bolt unto thy heart.

For Auld Lang Syne, My Dear
For Auld Lang Syne
Into the wind, thy future dreams,
For Auld Lang Syne

Elementalists have been nerfed every patch, even though we were long ago effectively neutered.
Now ANet wants to further beat us down, forcing us to choose, in the words of Karl McLean, between “core” features. They don’t understand Eles, 50-60% of them play Rangers (who now press ‘2’ to win).
Only you can stop the continued persecution of elementalists. Make your dissatisfaction known.

As for me… I came back to this game after a year, and after about a week of playing I’m once again too frustrated to devote myself to continuing. There are so many easy fixes to the problems elementalists face, and nothing is ever done.

Conjures are absolutely useless.
Sceptre damage sustain is a joke.
Our elites are garbage.
I’m still upset about RtL!
Going with any build that doesn’t have the majority of trait points dumped into water and arcana is simply suicide.
Any skill that enters the meta is insta-nerfed.
Any strategy that enters the meta is immediately rendered impractical or ineffective.

What’s worse is that the community is still toxic towards eles because D/D builds are still in collective memory. You can get steamrolled by every class and nothing is apparently wrong with that, but as soon as you beat someone else as an elementalist you’re clearly overpowered.

Here are the best suggestions that I have seen, which, if implemented, would compel me to continue playing:

• Completely overhaul conjured weapons to function as a single skill where your weapon changes according to your attunement, with benefits to conjured weapons added to existing traits.
• Put Ride the Lightning back how it was.
• Make sceptre auto attack deal damage proportionate to the target’s maximum health.
• Give staff some actual potential to survive/escape melee (e.g. fire 4 also gives you fire shield; it’s a 2-handed weapon we have to have better defensive options).
• Fix Bolt to the Heart. We’re already so limited on damage potential, this change was really stupid.
• Reduce CDs on Evasive Arcana to be in-line with standard endurance recharge rates. When I gain enough endurance to dodge again, I want an effect based on my attunement. That’s the whole point of this kittening trait.
• Do NOT make Evasive Arcana and Elemental Attunement both GM traits. That is dumb.
• Give Swirling Winds back the ability to block siege shots… but only at a 33% chance.
• Retool the useless traits that nobody even considers anymore (Zephyr’s Speed, for example… doesn’t stack with swiftness, which is extremely easy to come by, so kitten that).
• Give elementalists a weapon-swap option so that we don’t have to physically open our inventories to change what we’re wielding. Lock it out in combat, so you can’t go from one weapon set to another in the middle of a fight as an ele, but can still swap to a staff if we are wanting to defend the walls in WvW.

Elementalists will take a cup of kindness yet, for Auld Lang Syne.

This is not just directed at eles btw…HoT will target pretty much every class.

http://dulfy.net/2015/05/02/gw2-specialization-calculator-that_shaman/

phys.7689:

wow, when you see it right here all laid out

really feels like you dont have much options. Taking a lot of things just because you dont really have much choice.

Also, they should change the UI in the real game to show the Specs that arent active as well. harder to get a real quick feel for your options when you cant see them all at once.

Thank anet for the limitation…..in the end though, many have expressed a wanting for this system.

Oh well…..they should be careful what they wish for.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Continuum Shift (F5 estimated 80s+ CD) allows us to shatter our illusions to “displace” us from time. This effect allows us to cast freely, eat damage, and do whatever we want in an assumed 1-4 seconds until the effect ends, which then we’ll be reset to whatever state we were in before shattering, cooldowns/health reset and all.

This means we can literally use any skill(s) twice.

Alacrity is a new Chronomancer-specific resource that allows us to lower the cooldowns of our abilities. Mostly trait-focused, Alacrity works on Mesmers, their illusions, and even can be shared to allies in limited form. Alacrity will be gained through shatters, but it is hinted that there will be other ways to gain/grant it. ( Assuming interrupts, Phantasm summons, and on … Mantra charge? )

It is assumed this was the “something just as good” that was hinted before to make up for us only receiving an offhand. Are you happy with this or would you rather have gotten a new weapon besides shield?

Alacrity, new weapon and more condition removal options throughout “each” trait line as opposed to the future inspiration/illusion lines.

But…will anet ever care….and how long will it take?

FrozenChinchilla.5249:

Eggs.3142:

I’m really confused. This is not the only thread wherein i’ve seen someone say in essense:

“When you have Trait X on, it makes you want to use Skill A, and thus have no reason to use Skill B, which is boosted by Trait Y”

Traits INTRINSICLY reduce build possibility, because they focus you.

I mean, do people not take ice bow because they have 2 cantrips? No.
Icebow is amazing and you’ll take it regardless of your traits.

Ice bow will be nerfed…..

CodeHavoc.7926:

It could go well or it will go the April 15 feature patch where most traits weren’t used because they sucked or others were better.

Others will always be better…there will always be meta.

Silv.9207:

If we have to “steal” a Unique kind of skills from another class it can not be shouts because already more than one class have it. But the devs sayd that one class have to obtain it.

We also can’t obtain spirits. I think that Engi will obtain a mix between spirits and banners. Into a different way, something like flying robots on your back that give you boons and support. In the HoT release video we can see the engi attack some mobs with flying minions on it’s back that don’t move away from the engi and don’t attack. That can be a some kind of spirits.

What about a some kind of Glyph?

I think that it can be good: You curse the land and the effect last for X seconds, while all the enemy suffer from damage and conditions.
One to deal conditions and cripple (like the ranger’s Barrage), another that deal damage and Chill and Slow the enemy. Another that make every enemy that go in downed state lose 50-75% of they’re HP istant.
And that Glyph can grant some passive benefits to the necromancer.
Something like that.

A necromancer that can curse the land with powerfull effects. Why not?

Curse ground = Wells?…..

So the glyph active will have to be something else.

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

Who typed that it was my point of view?
Why would I type a non statement if I don’t care since it’s not from my point of view?
Why are the majority of your statements designed to shoot down statements manufactured to illuminate your hypocritical nature?
Why are you also constantly becoming confused and therefore making the wrong assumptions?
And when will the next “wall of text” appear that provides the same flavour as the previous?

You tell me. Clearly you have me at an advantage with all your experience.

pepper.6179:

kaikalii.4198:

I’m not particularly worried. While the new mesmer stuff is certainly interesting and probably strong, every class is getting a buff, and we haven’t seen what the thief specialization is yet.

thief specialization will get the revealed buff for 60 secs and endurance regen lowered!

Lies and scandals….

spoj.9672:

Shouts dont really make sense on a necro. Id expect something completely new for us. But other options could be spirits or auras.

We will get a ranger undead pet!!!

Necro stealth?

Oh…oh…a necro adrenaline life force f1 ability thing. o.O

Me Games Ma.8426:

HE’S FROM THE FUTURE!!

Or was it…the past….

Nemesis actually posted a long kitten youtube vid portraying all the issues with the necro. Even showcasing the main underlying issue of the necro as not being able to scale to multi opponent fights because of the unfinished class mechanic.

And yet anet seemed to not even care…..

There could be still hope with the necro specializations though….maybe.

Sebrent.3625:

Yes.

While running fractals last night, some of my friends and I were talking about this a bit more about this. Each of us feels like several items from our class’s subforum’s “wishlist(s)” have been answered by the new traits. Now, we’ll have to wait and see how the various numbers get tweaked, but mechanically it looks like they’ve been listening and incorporating it in the plans they’ve been quiet about until now.

While there are still the naysayers (always are, always will be), all of the class forums are abuzz with positivity.

We’ll have to wait and see how it all truly pans out, but the current look appears nice … like we have been listened to.

They were just quietly handling it … which I can’t blame given how horrid the community seems to be to any ANet employee that so much as shows their tag.

Trait line lockdown ftw…..and oh we so wanted that too (sarcasm btw).

Curunen.8729:

Levetty.1279:

Fay.2357:

Allow me to quote myself.

Fay.2357:

Let’s start with interrupt builds. Standard interrupt will probably be domination, dueling, and chaos. Chaos gives the strong CI/BI effects, along with good staff boosts. Dueling has the incredible pistol trait, along with standard DE for clone generation and other utility stuff. Domination has the amazing reworked CS, along with the power block + upgraded halting strike trait. This a really well-working, strong build. Now, to take chrono, you’d have to sacrifice some of that. You could…but it would be a significant sacrifice. From what we know of chrono, some stuff is comparable to stuff from other traitlines. This makes that sacrifice a viable option, but absolutely not the single best one.

Alright, now lets do power shatter builds. Power shatter is domination, dueling, and illusions. You’d have to sacrifice one for chrono. Domination has incredible damgae amp. Dueling has DE. Illusions has the powerful shatter cooldowns + shatter boosting traits. Chrono might be worth dropping one of those for…but it’ll be a big sacrifice. One that some people might take, but is definitely not the single best choice.

Now lets look at condie shatter. Condie shatter is generally going to be dueling, chaos, and illusions. This is a really strong set, with dueling providing conditions on crit plus DE, chaos giving staff traits and PU, and illusions providing Maim. One of these must be sacrificed for chrono. Again, maybe you could sacrifice chaos, maybe dueling…but it’s a hard choice. One that some people might take, but definitely not the single best choice.

I could do this for phantasm builds, mantra builds, literally any standard build archetype….I could do this same analysis for.

Conclusion
Chrono is an interesting specialization, has some strong utilities, useful traits…and is absolutely not going to be the only option.

Is it weird that I would rather go inspiration over chaos in condie shatter?

Not weird at all – I’m actually more excited about the core buffs to mesmer, like default iElasticity and improved confusing combatants, as well as the mirror traits than the elite spec.

If only we had every line with some form of condition removal….than just having it in inspiration and illusion.

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

Rin.1046:

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

I type for years of experience playing gw1 and gw2, within both pve and pvp.

If you can type for the same deal, you still will be ignorant.

Erm, what he meant was that he isn’t dreading the changes. This isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion. That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience, some people welcome changes with open arms, open mind.

In all my years that I played GW1 and GW2, I sort of expect them to change everything they can possibly change. I never dreaded any of the changes either way.

Then you will love being locked into three trait lines.

By the way, was laughable to see you try to break apart the statements but this “isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion” and this “That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience”.

Opinions are shaped by experience, which makes it matter.

Assuming that I care for the expansion at all shows off your ignorance and tendency to jump to conclusions (which is adorable). Knowing anets capabilities and faults that they have been demonstrated in the past, showcases a glimpse into possible outcomes. Seeing what they have so far completed or brain stormed, doesn’t yield to a positive atmosphere. You would just need to read the other posts within this forum to understand.

Though that was a different team in gw1 and anet have gone through a change over period in terms of staff. Something to keep in mind which makes you look towards current events during these 2 years. Could go “in depth” but that would be a waste of time.

Change is good for a game but if the actually developers, management and organisation itself choose to continue to go on a path that the majority don’t have confidence in without relaying their thoughts about the future change to the public’s build options and play style, don’t get confused when you think about it (that’s if you would bother to think about it).

So you believe that it is a the majority of opinions (which you didn’t even bother to prove) meaning that there are people who have different opinions regarding this issue.

I didn’t assume anything about your relation to the game other than you dreading anything arenanet changes. Ofcourse it would be a non-statement saying you don’t actually care. Since it would mean theres people who don’t care as well as others who do like the changes.

My point was just that not everyone will simply agree because you “have experience”. It is all from your viewpoint at best anyway. Hence that speaking for yourself would be probably a better idea than to randomly draw conclusions based on nothing about what everyone is feeling about these changes.

Who typed that it was my point of view?
Why would I type a non statement if I don’t care since it’s not from my point of view?
Why are the majority of your statements designed to shoot down statements manufactured to illuminate your hypocritical nature?
Why are you also constantly becoming confused and therefore making the wrong assumptions?
And when will the next “wall of text” appear that provides the same flavour as the previous?

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

Rin.1046:

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

I type for years of experience playing gw1 and gw2, within both pve and pvp.

If you can type for the same deal, you still will be ignorant.

Erm, what he meant was that he isn’t dreading the changes. This isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion. That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience, some people welcome changes with open arms, open mind.

In all my years that I played GW1 and GW2, I sort of expect them to change everything they can possibly change. I never dreaded any of the changes either way.

Then you will love being locked into three trait lines.

By the way, was laughable to see you try to break apart the statements but this “isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion” and this “That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience”.

Opinions are shaped by experience, which makes it matter.

Assuming that I care for the expansion at all shows off your ignorance and tendency to jump to conclusions (which is adorable). Knowing anets capabilities and faults that they have been demonstrated in the past, showcases a glimpse into possible outcomes. Seeing what they have so far completed or brain stormed, doesn’t yield to a positive atmosphere. You would just need to read the other posts within this forum to understand.

Though that was a different team in gw1 and anet have gone through a change over period in terms of staff. Something to keep in mind which makes you look towards current events during these 2 years. Could go “in depth” but that would be a waste of time.

Change is good for a game but if the actually developers, management and organisation itself choose to continue to go on a path that the majority don’t have confidence in without relaying their thoughts about the future change to the public’s build options and play style, don’t get confused when you think about it (that’s if you would bother to think about it).

Azzer.8137:

Palawa Joko !

He is still…undead!!!….

Rin.1046:

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

I type for years of experience playing gw1 and gw2, within both pve and pvp.

If you can type for the same deal, you still will be ignorant.

runeblade.7514:

MiniEquine.6014:

Okay, NOW it should be good.

6/4/2/2 yields the most results with 19,627,920 different combinations
3/3/3/3/2 yields the least results with 7,776 different combinations
66,713,226 different possible trait combinations with the current system
196,830 different combinations with the new system
99.7049% reduction in trait combination by switching to the new system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

Yet only 39 viable pvp builds.

Can you predict how many of those 39 will not be inferior?

That’s just one question btw.

Nate.3927:

MiniEquine.6014:

Since the new trait system will be shuffling the traits around a little bit, it’s sort of comparing apples to oranges, but there are very significant changes to the customizability of builds. From my post elsewhere:
Okay, NOW it should be good.

6/4/2/2 yields the most results with 19,627,920 different combinations
3/3/3/3/2 yields the least results with 7,776 different combinations
66,713,226 different possible trait combinations with the current system
196,830 different combinations with the new system
99.7049% reduction in trait combination by switching to the new system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

There are currently 20,724,390 build possibilities that only use 3 trait lines (about 1/3 of the total)

Your first point I agree with. Which is part of why I don’t understand some people’s complaints. If the traits are getting moved/merged/removed, then yes your build will change, but it will not necessarily become worse.

With your second point, I don’t follow your numbers, and won’t bother trying since I’m not in the mood for maths right now, but I’ve said this before elsewhere. 20 million possible trash builds are just that, trash. How many of those do you think actually gets used? Very few.

Will builds change? Of course they will, every single balance patch changes certain builds. Will you be worse off? Based on the info provided so far, except for a few very specific builds that are run by almost no one, the answer is no.

I will use the example I used before with the other person’s build, is “reckless dodge” truly so core to his/her build that losing that minor trait and gaining 4 more a net loss to his/her build? The answer is most likely no.

Now if you guys have complaints about specific grandmaster or master traits that are worthless. That quite possibly valid (again I am not a theorycrafter), but that’s completely separate to the new trait/spec system.

Your complaints so far is basically along the lines of “Nobody should be allowed to wear armor, because some armor skins clip badly with Charr tails” . It’s a ridiculous complaint. Complain about the specific armor skins/traits that are causing clipping issues/are useless don’t complain about armor in general when it works perfectly fine for most things.

Also to note by your comment “but it will not necessarily become worse”. What happens if you have to make the choice between the power line or the primary attribute line to get some form of conditions removal?

Yes every class does not have condition removal within every tree. That is just an example for when you need something but have to sacrifice an entire trait tree in favour of another that you don’t need to use at all. Your then required to make a clear cut choice that you never had to with the current system.

This new system in the end will limit choices, which in turn forces you to use specific builds thus compounding the whole “meta spec” issue and hampering build diversity.

But hey some of us can’t be optimists like you since we see the truth and understand anets short comings (restraining btw).

McWolfy.5924:

Changing, shaking things up always a good thing. If everything are the same i get bored

Not if you kill build diversity in favour for more meta control. Anet wants everyone to use predefined builds which they have direct control over since they will have locked us all into a 3 trait line choice.

You won’t be able to take points from wherever to spend into a trait line you haven’t invested into.

I find it ironic how anet continues to prove the fact that they do not understand what they created.

Jedge.3619:

The Primary.6371:

Those that spam dodging to get the clone death proc are bad. Mesmers are also not just type casted to being “deceptive”….misdirection…punishment for actions?….

The use of “active play” also works against anyone who uses crit sigils, runes that proc an effect not within your active control, AI that auto attack, every class trait that provides a “passive” boost to attributes or a proc effect that is not in your direct control, boons that provide passive effects such as “regen or protection as examples”, healing skills that passively heal you such as “healing signet” and skills that require an active use but are passive straight afterwards such as elementalists “meteor shower” (called fire and forget, which has been applied to a mesmers “shattering”).

Oh wait what are conditions…they are applied actively but passively cause damage over time to said target or targets.

Majority of these are used in supposed “high” tier game play. This game is full of passive effects that no one wants to acknowledge or consistently complain about.

But hey…death to clone death trait points just means something else taken away from the mesmer…again (though you would have to be a noob to have a problem with it, since the traits have already been nerf hammered and anet are simply finishing off what they started).

This of course will not stop there as those nice and shinny traits (e.g. confusing combatants) will be nerf hammered into the ground. That is just an example, because we also know a few others will obviously be nerf hammered as well or not turn out as expected.

The passivity of GuildWars2 is unreal. Conditions are essentially fire and forget, buffs such as retaliation exist. Perplexity runes, I could go on for days. I also agree that a large portion of the new traits will have to be toned down (nerfed into oblivion) in the final release. I understand that something was taken away from mesmer, but I strongly believe that the amount of other buffs we got to condi and other builds more than makes up for this change. It hurts dire more than anything.

The over all 3 trait line “deadlocked” choice or nothing at all underlines it all for every class.

This expansion will never be worthy with it around….

mrstealth.6701:

Nate.3927:

mrstealth.6701:

It would be nice to put 2 or 4 into that line. But no, I have to meaningfully waste more points on traits that I have no use for. Why can’t I put another master or adept trait in the grandmaster slot? At least that slot would be doing something useful then.

what points are you wasting exactly? We get 4 extra points with the new system even if all 4 ends up used for traits you don’t need/want you’re still back where you started. You’re no worse off than before.

Even if the desired build is a 6/6/2 split, and you’re not losing anything, those extra points/traits are still wasted if there are no useful traits gained in your previous 2-point line. It really does not matter that they are added points on top of what we now have. If they are unable to be used as desired, they are wasted.

And if your build is using more than 3 lines right now, you’re losing that build and being forced to fully invest in lines you don’t want.

Exactly.

Jedge.3619:

phys.7689:

Jedge.3619:

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

no, one aspect of your clones is to shatter them.
there is a reason they look exactly like you.
they also supposed to be deceptive.

a tank/distraction mesmer actually wants his clones alive, and taking damage until the moment they die. Shattering all your distractions/meat shields at once, is only a good idea when the benefits outweigh the loss.

Now, i personally never really used the build, but to claim its pointless, or against the class design is foolish. Mesmer is not defined as being a explosion factory.

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

deception as a weapon: nothing deceptive about blowing up every illusion you have
confuse and distract: yup taking damage for attacking the wrong guy is confusing and distracting
cant believe your eyes: yup once again decieving the enemy/making the wrong choices.

clone death is very much one part of the idea behind mesmer.

If you’ve never used the build before, how can you either argue for or against it unless you’ve experienced it – maybe you’ve fought it before? A good player, will rarely pick the wrong mesmer – its pretty easy to tell who the real one is. There’s nothing deceptive about dodge-rolling or creating a new clone and having it explode causing new conditions. Sure, killing a clone is “deceptive” but doing the former is not. That is the main issue is the passivity of that specific playstyle. Phantasm/staff mode builds want their illusions alive possibly. There’s a reason they’re also adding in new traits to promote shattering even when you have phantasms – they want a more active playstyle. I’m not saying playing phantasm is wrong, but the way clone-death was abused needed to be changed.

Those that spam dodging to get the clone death proc are bad. Mesmers are also not just type casted to being “deceptive”….misdirection…punishment for actions?….

The use of “active play” also works against anyone who uses crit sigils, runes that proc an effect not within your active control, AI that auto attack, every class trait that provides a “passive” boost to attributes or a proc effect that is not in your direct control, boons that provide passive effects such as “regen or protection as examples”, healing skills that passively heal you such as “healing signet” and skills that require an active use but are passive straight afterwards such as elementalists “meteor shower” (called fire and forget, which has been applied to a mesmers “shattering”).

Oh wait what are conditions…they are applied actively but passively cause damage over time to said target or targets.

Majority of these are used in supposed “high” tier game play. This game is full of passive effects that no one wants to acknowledge or consistently complain about.

But hey…death to clone death trait points just means something else taken away from the mesmer…again (though you would have to be a noob to have a problem with it, since the traits have already been nerf hammered and anet are simply finishing off what they started).

This of course will not stop there as those nice and shinny traits (e.g. confusing combatants) will be nerf hammered into the ground. That is just an example, because we also know a few others will obviously be nerf hammered as well or not turn out as expected.

It’s more like you can’t take out those two trait points since trait points will be a thing of the past and you will only have 3 trait lines to utilize.

So say your a mesmer who has a 6/6/6/0/0 build and wants to take two points from domination and put them into illusions to get the torch trait. Too bad anet has screwed you over and you will just have to choose between a 0/6/6/0/6 spec or the previous one and have pathetic options for condition removal which makes you sacrifice utilities, sigils or runes.

That is just a small example, but the main point is simply anet taking away another tool we had control over which was “trait point investment”. The previous ones (bear in mind only for pvp) where the attribute tweaking that jewels provided/ear rings or the mixing of runes.

mtpelion.4562:

Right now, “build diversity” means “select the damage increasing traits so that you are using the exact same build as everyone else”.

Due to the way they are changing traits, it seems like there will be a LOT more build options now since we aren’t going to be shoehorned into taking the same selection as everyone else in order to get max DPS out of it.

You mean we will be “shoehorned” into set types of builds but from anet itself rather than….wait nvm it will be from both anet and the general trending meta itself.

Oh and the fact that it has to be full on 6 points invested into only three lines so you can’t slightly diversify….why even call them trait points/trait lines anyways…..why even call them builds at all. They would be more like predetermined templates since that’s what anet wants, set in stone builds that can’t be personalised.

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Rialen.1524:

That’s what it seems like, the choice locking is pretty narrow and lame.

Seems like anet don’t care about build diversity…oh well time is running out. This is after all coming up to the 5th month, which means we are starting to come up to a couple of expected game release points.

Crossplay.2067:

calivaty.8295:

Totally agree from a pvp point of view. There is a reason every pvp build takes the trait.

Out of the four mesmers I have, two of them don’t have a single point in the duelist traitline. One is specifically a bunker build for pvp and the other is specifically to cause havoc for wvw. Both are hell to deal with. That alone makes your statement false.

Deceptive evasion is very powerful but it isn’t necessary. If fact, it would hamper my bunker build because that requires three specific phantasms to work.

You are part of the minority then.

maxheap.5286:

Thank goodness they are getting rid of builds that doesn’t shatter.

You have no idea…for what is coming…..

phys.7689:

Jedge.3619:

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

example:

I shatter, knowing full well that the guard I’m targeting will pull an aoe to destroy the incoming clones.

example 2:

I’m up against an elementalist in fire attunement. I switch to scepter and pound them from afar. Fire field comes up. I switch to staff and run in. Chaos Storm, Phant, dodge and phase retreat out, gaining chaos armor and watching the ele kill my two clones and phant.

Example 3:

I get jumped by a thief. Chaos storm, phase retreat,phant, decoy. Run back to my clones. Thief pulls dagger storm to destroy the clones so I won’t shatter on them and bleeds themselves down in the process.

I could go on. The point is that the thing “grouch” complained about, simply dodging to kill clones, is the crudest form of clone death play.

In reality, clone death is a very good add to shatter if played well.

I love the idea of a baseline clone death penalty.. but that is far too much consideration to ask of anet

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

no, one aspect of your clones is to shatter them.
there is a reason they look exactly like you.
they also supposed to be deceptive.

a tank/distraction mesmer actually wants his clones alive, and taking damage until the moment they die. Shattering all your distractions/meat shields at once, is only a good idea when the benefits outweigh the loss.

Now, i personally never really used the build, but to claim its pointless, or against the class design is foolish. Mesmer is not defined as being a explosion factory.

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

deception as a weapon: nothing deceptive about blowing up every illusion you have
confuse and distract: yup taking damage for attacking the wrong guy is confusing and distracting
cant believe your eyes: yup once again decieving the enemy/making the wrong choices.

clone death is very much one part of the idea behind mesmer.

Clones will never be “deceptive” as they are not exact duplicates of the main character. They have too many differences plus the ai is pathetically stupid in this game.

In the end though…many believe shatter is the be all and end all. Majority want it that way and hide behind excuses such as “passive gameplay” when it already exists in supposed high tier gameplay.

This suggests that the majority of the mesmer community does not want build variety. For wanting anet to provide tweaks to “shatter” based builds will never mean “build diversity”.

Ross Biddle.2367:

I got weakness on interrupt with PB. Was the only clone death trait worth taking (cripple a close second). So all is well.

Exactly, to complain about a nerf hammered trait and wanting it to simply “die out” is a major waste of time.

Oh btw, I don’t think about 5 seconds of weakness will be totally useful vs thieves that have “resilience” for about 5 seconds that can dodge a lot more than before HoT. This is also assuming you land the rupt. Another note though, thieves don’t care about skill recharge.

The application of blind upon shatter lasting only about 3 seconds will also not be very useful either, therefore it’s a joke that blinding dissipation is a master trait.

Kitta.3657:

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

Air sigil and fire sigil and any other sigil that procs off crit is actually higher in the chain of “passive gameplay”. They are used more frequently than mesmer clone death traits and are never brought up as gw2 humans can’t bear to see them nerfed or taken away.

Those are just sigils and they are widely used (but don’t forget how every class in gw2 have passive traits as well.)

Every mesmer in supposed “high tier” gameplay never use “clone death traits” or it is simply never going to be mainstream.

Oh btw

I don’t really see how this is any more passive or unskillful then some builds used by other classes.

Are they going to get rid of minions and turrets? Similarly are they going to change other classes weapon cooldown skills to be as complicated as Mesmers isntead of just passive reductions?

Levetty’s post just reminded me that you need to “actively” have the forethought to position your clones or phantasms majority of the time. Thus in turn actually getting a some what reliable damage effect, slight damage increase or damage mitigation placed upon said target.

The conditions also don’t have a long duration e.g. baseline bleeding has 4 seconds with 2 stacks, vulnerability has 5 seconds and weakness has 3 seconds. It is also randomized since you do not know which one will be placed upon the target. You can also “actively” dodge the effect too but can’t dodge an air sigil proc or fire sigil proc (those two are just some examples).

To complain about this trait at this point is to be foolish, since you have better ordeals to complain about e.g. “why is chaotic transference becoming a master trait as opposed to current state of being a minor grandmaster trait?” or “why is mind wrack a trait and what does this mean for the mesmer class mechanic?”.

opiomorph.7983:

This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.

Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.

Ignoring the trolling from “phantasm mesmers”, turning deceptive evasion into a grandmaster clearly goes against all that the mesmer community has advised as to it’s placement.

This will hamper builds that rely upon it such kittenter specs. Since they will need to waste an extra two points to get the trait.

Jekkt.6045:

currently you’re able to spend points in all the lines simultaneously, the most popular build using this would be medi guard with 0/1/6/1/6.

by forcing us to spend all our points in 3 lines only this will cut down build diversity and is imo not a good thing.

a response by a dev would be appreciated.

Good Luck….

Sizer.5632:

Pve isnt the only game mode, a lot of people play an ele for more than just facerolling your keys as fast as you can to see big numbers pop up.

Besides we dont even know all the changes, so dont freak out just yet. You could easily end up with more damage than before.

Humans are best known for “freaking out” about the “unknown”.

Lordrosicky.5813:

It honestly is the reason I quit. Getting insta gibbed by auto attacks and 4 fire/air sigils in a few seconds EVERY few seconds = no room for skill or counter play. It really is brainless. Unavoidable SPIKE damage. Celestial isn’t even that OP compared to these. I would make the icd 10 seconds for air and fire.

And people in general complain about passive play in this game with mesmer clone death traits debilitating dissipation and crippling dissipation as prime examples.

What’s even more funny is the fact that you can dodge those while you simply take the air/fire proc.

Still that’s for those that use zerker specs and are genuinely squishy to complain about.

HaxTester.9816:

Nerf celestial now. Remove the toughness and vitality part. Also reduce the toughness and vitality of other stats. Also buff power, precision, and ferocity in all stats. Please please make this happen. K thx bye.

L2p, learn how to also provide a real argument as well.

Joke threads ftw….

Anastasis.7258:

I thought my character was bugged at the moment when I see 15 min.
The queue actually poped at 17 min, which I think it breaks my previous record 13 min.

Can you guys at least let us join some hotjoins or personal arena to duel with friends while waiting for these life wasting queues? The average queue time for me now is around 8~9 mins, which is just ridiculous .

Waiting these queues also sucks for streamers to stream Guild Wars 2 PvP. Viewers lost their interest by watching streamers just standing in HoTM and do nothing but killing golems. I believe most of the streamer in Guild Wars 2 PvP has whined about that they can’t do anything while waiting for the queue pop. Even veteran players couldn’t really handle these boring queue times, how about those new comers who just join Guild Wars 2 PvP?

Polymock!!!

hackks.3687:

Clone production needs a nerf. Then there will be room for more build diversity. With clone production as it is Shatter will always be the strongest option and there won’t be room for anything else.

That would actually limit build diversity and screw up the mesmer class mechanic at the same time.

In other words, taking something away does not promote build diversity. Plus you will always trust anet to inevitable over nerf a particular trait or ability into oblivion.

Ross Biddle.2367:

First pro tip: Level your mesmer with PvP tomes, or in an EOTM kTrain. Once 80 you can start playing the mesmer game.

I’ll let someone else take over the rest.

Game of Butterflies eh?

Wonder if blind still screws it up…someone tests this as I am cbfed to care about this utility.

Bran.7425:

The main reason I can guess at why people want to get rid of the pets can easily be summed up in three statements:

1)The pets underperform* (effect to effort on ranger is not even close to a good place)
2) Anet know the problems exist, but proper solution take too much time/effort/work hours, so they will only bandaid fix at best,
3) The pets are completely out of sorts in the action/active defense based nature of the game (they current pet system would be better suited a a 10 year old stand and cast style RPG than the game they seem to want gw2 to be)

*This also leads to a problem of perception if the pet performs at a level that it need to be to be truly part of the 2 as 1 ideal that ranger seems to try to be, then it will be viewed and despised by much of the competitive player base (more so than it already is) as they view anything that isn’t in the players direct control is anathema to PvP and anymore most of the technical direction/focus of the game is centered around spvp and the dream of e-sports.

More like anet don’t want to put the effort in to fixing…wait this isn’t a problem…it’s an unfinished mechanic!!!

Ok rephrase….more like anet don’t want to finish off the ranger class mechanic. In gw1 rangers had evolutions(stages) for their pets. Anet could take it a step further and allow pet customizability and put more effort into pet control by allowing us to utilize the whole pet bar without any automation (as one example).

Bear in mind the whole pet “evolution/breeding” (w/e you want to call it) idea can be easily expanded upon. But that’s if anet would care about doing it.

Don’t put all your cookies in one basket…. always good to have variety with particular mesmer builds so that if condi fails you still have direct damage or vice versa.

Snakes, monkeys(boon stealers) and crocodiles ftw

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Ross Biddle.2367:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

messiah.1908:

these are not my words. go in the metabattle site and read counters. you will see heavy counter from conditions builds.

/snip

His exact quote was “every meta build is pretty much counter by heavy conditions pressure”

To which you responded by launching into a defense of “every meta team directly counters conditions”.

So misreading was your first mistake, the straw-men the second.

I know this is the Mesmer subforum – but confusion ain’t the main forté anymore since Anet decided that Torment is the way to go

However to clear up the confusion – how did I misread? I replied with the words he gave me which are
“if you keep reading closely you will see that every meta build is pretty much counter by heavy conditions pressure… MTD”
In which I replied that this is false, the meta is actually hardcountering full Condi builds, and is suspicable to CC’s – you can see this by the fact that Condi Ranger is not a thing despite being Extremely potent when not faced against the “current meta”, and the same counts for the example I gave with Condi Engi which once more seems to not be the top dog in Metagaming anymore – while Engi still has the Cele Rifle variant keeping them in the game

Second, what straw-man? I gave an in depth answer, unlike what you are accomplishing here…

I am sorry if you felt somewhat compelled to argue against me since I seem not to be in favour of MtD – but this is not my aim and absolutely not relevant to the discussion whatsoever
Besides, my experience within Condi pressure and the meta does not even come from MtD – it comes from Condi Builds in general, of which I gave the example with the King of Condis

Too bad the revenant can excessively apply both conditions upon said targets thus outperforming the mesmer.

Neurophen.9738:

I think I can explain. The Internet is tuned to find the absolute worst interpretation of anything written or posted.

People who like or agree with a post generally are not motivated to reply. Especially since loud obnoxious posters (who have nothing better to do) drown out any positive message. I see this pattern constantly everywhere on the net.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Skoigoth.9238:

Bhawb.7408:

DS enter/exit doesn’t interrupt res/stomping I thought

I´m pretty sure it does.

Since lacking group utility/support is one of our biggest weaknesses at the moment, why not make it a “shout”-type of effect?

e.g.

• 3 stacks of stability for 7 seconds
• 5 targets
• radius 600

I’ll try and use anet logic to say why that won’t happen.

Anet Logic: Necromancers are supposed to be a selfish class, therefore, no.

Before gw2, there was gw1 which had different anet logic. This meant that necros could provide team support just with a more offensive/sacrificial based role.

zinkz.7045:

Nebilim.5127:

That is simply not true.

No it is very true, for the first 12 months or so, engy was the most nerfed class, some of the nerfs:

- In a single change went from the class with the highest stab uptime (juggernaut) to a class with barely any. (didn’t even have the crappy elxir B toss then)
- Shield 5 nerfed twice – duration, attack through block.
- Elixir R nerfed multiple times – cooldown increased, stun break removed, cast time added.
- Elixir S nerfed – used to be able to use toolbelt skills.
- IP – nerfed twice, burn duration shortened, got moved to master.
- Mines blast finsiher removed.
- Transmute nerfed
- Smoke bomb pulses nerfed.
- Automated Response nerfed
- Grenades – have been nerfed multiple times.
- Kit refinement – the effects were nerfed, but more importantly it was absolutely destroyed by going to a GCD.
- Vigour nerfed on engy by changing speedy kits to 10 sec duration.

And so on.

Nebilim.5127:

If i had to pick the most heavy nerfed class would probably be warrior, and will probably be just a matter of time before the class is killed entirely when they nerf cleansing ire.

LOL, warrior is one of the least nerfed classes, the most nerfed classes over the entire time are probably thief and mesmer, and of the nerfs the warrior has got most are down to the ridiculous buffs / changes that came in with the healing signet / cleansing ire patches.

Not that which is class is nerfed more actually means anything, all that matters is the result of those balance changes, thief has had a boatload of nerfs, but the core design is so broken that even after all those nerfs, yet again for a big tournie – WTS, there were still two thieves in the final, it is still the case for most classes other than the remedial faceroll that is medi guard that they wil be inferior to a zerker thief. Given the current state of the game the only classes that are in any position to complain are mesmer, necro & ranger.

It is funny this thread is people complaining about the passive IP, when you have disgustingly passive classes like warrior with high armour, high HP, the most ridiculous passive heal in existence, condi cleansing designed in a way that terrible players don’t even have to think about it, etc.

But then this thread is full of it, fullstop, instant IP proc is indeed lame in terms of counterplay, but then so are half skills in the game on that basis, everything from stealth to instant teleports to passive healing to random fear procs and so on.

Someone go find that youtube vid of that dude stating how anet will turn the engi into a tree.

ArrDee.2573:

Every class can deal with it! It’s just that a Warrior can deal with it by equipping Healing Signet and standing there! 2000 damage over 5 seconds every 10 seconds is pretty godawful in comparison to something like an Air Sigil 1200 instant damage every 3 seconds!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Not every class can deal with it “consistently”. Plus idk if you have a “extreme friend” that’s actually here for you.

But here is another point, currently panic strike or sleight of hand (ignoring s/d specs) have pathetic condition removal and effectively can get countered and finished off by engi’s IP.

In other words, if they “balance” (or nerf hammer since that’s what anet will most likely do) the engi’s IP they should also do it for every class as well thus effectively balancing the meta. This though will again shift the meta as they will also have to give something back (over buff since that’s what anet also does).