Guild Wars 2

I’m not disagreeing with your suggestions, but why is it you think these skills should be changed as such? Imo, to better make the staff a team support weapon, the only one of these changes I’d really like is the change to #4. Other changes should focus on staff 1 and staff 2 as they’re some of the most underwhelming weapon skills in the game and don’t really work well for either support or damage.

Pretty sure OP mistakenly used future tense instead of conditional tense. If a
ANet even hinted at us getting +25% movement speed, the reddit and everyone in this forum would be all over it.

On topic: I doubt we would ever be given a free +25% movement speed like chronomancers did. It would either be conditionally available through a trait (probably unscathed contender or battle presence if I had to guess) or a utility skill (reworking one of the signet passives). That being said, it would be something you could very easily switch out of when not in combat unlike “Retreat!”

Obtena.7952:

I can only tell you that Anet thinks it is because they have told us we are in a good place. I can only suspect that means that all the other classes need more work to achieve whatever targets Anet has for those classes than Guardian does.

Maybe people are delusional but … that’s what matters here. Balance is relative and there are no set rules for fairness or equality between classes, as nice as that might be. Anet sets those targets, Anet decides what work and what path to take on their timetable to achieve them.

I’m pretty sure ANet hasn’t said guardians are in a good place since before the trait overhaul in June of 2015. It just seems to be an implied statement because 1. We don’t ever seem to get any large worthwhile changes that are frequently requested. Last one I can remember is a small cd reduction to shield skills when HoT shipped. 2. Other classes do.

Obtena.7952:

Arcaedus.7290:

Obtena.7952:

Aza.2105:

I’ve been playing Guardian since launch, I’ve seen fellow guardian players have high hopes each time a patch drops. Only for most players to be disappointed by lack of changes. Anet will tell everyone, guardian is in a good spot!

Looks at signets, spirit weapons and consecration

The state of a select few skills is not indicative that the class does not perform or if the class is hitting Anet’s desired target for performance. It pains me to see people make this ridiculous claim all the time. It demonstrates a lack of critical thinking.

This has less to do with desired performance and more to do with build variety. Arguably one of the reasons we fare so poorly in the current pvp meta is our lack of effective builds. It’s pretty much meditrapper (or a fairly similar variant) or go home. Even if we were performing at Anet’s desired performance for guardians (whatever this means), it doesn’t excuse the fact that these “select few skills,” which by the way constitute nearly half of all our utilities, are next to useless in all game modes. They need buffs and/or reworks, period.

Build variety is not necessarily correlated to performance. You can have a class with a single build and that build could be absolutely killer, or a class with EVERY build and they all suck. I won’t argue that ‘the few’ builds we have are good or bad, but we already know what Anet thinks. It’s clear that people are talking about relative performance … that doesn’t necessarily mean Guardians get buffs or that it’s even class driven assessment. Anet might take the approach that a set of skills is in need of buff or nerf. Who knows.

Oh it’s correlated, but it isn’t an absolute correlation. In general, a class that has multiple viable builds will perform better overall in pvp settings – reapers, druids, scrappers and to a degree, revenants are good examples of this concept. Our relative performance to other classes is hurting in spvp. Many classes are suffering from the same issues as we are (poorly designed traits and/or traitlines, out-dated weapon skills), I think that if ANet wants to move in a direction of fixing these issues, guardians would be a good place to start.

Saiyan.1704:

Guardians don’t need a speed buff to be viable, it’s just QoL that most players want for the class. It’s mostly wanted in WvW and PvE. Can’t argue against 90% of Guardian players asking for it though.

You pretty much nailed it for me. Despite how vehemently I argue for said +25% movement speed, I don’t really have mobility problems while in combat or engaged in some sort of fight in general. It’s out of combat that things become painful. Imo this takes lower priority than fixing/buffing guardian weapon skills and utilities. I still stand by my argument that giving guardians +25% movement speed through trait/skill would not create imbalance issues and would instead only bring tidings of joy to the class.

Guardian’s lack of build diversity and viability in spvp comes from 3 overarching problems imo:

1. Outdated core skills (weapon, class and utilities)
2. Too much projectile hate/ unnecessary projectile property on guardian weapon skills
3. Poor trait choices; often times inadequate entire traitlines.

1. and #3 are problems shared by nearly all classes, but #2 is sort of the last straw for guardians and is something that could easily be fixed aside from lowering cooldowns on guardian weapon skills.

Some really simple fixes that I think would put guardians back into the meta without overtuning: For starters, the third sword auto attack and GS2 don’t meed to be projectiles. Make sword 3 mobile, increase the target limit on mace auto attack. Also, lower cooldowns on hammer 3, 4 and 5, mace 3, GS 3, both focus skills and severely lower cooldowns on core guardian virtues.

Obtena.7952:

Aza.2105:

I’ve been playing Guardian since launch, I’ve seen fellow guardian players have high hopes each time a patch drops. Only for most players to be disappointed by lack of changes. Anet will tell everyone, guardian is in a good spot!

Looks at signets, spirit weapons and consecration

The state of a select few skills is not indicative that the class does not perform or if the class is hitting Anet’s desired target for performance. It pains me to see people make this ridiculous claim all the time. It demonstrates a lack of critical thinking.

This has less to do with desired performance and more to do with build variety. Arguably one of the reasons we fare so poorly in the current pvp meta is our lack of effective builds. It’s pretty much meditrapper (or a fairly similar variant) or go home. Even if we were performing at Anet’s desired performance for guardians (whatever this means), it doesn’t excuse the fact that these “select few skills,” which by the way constitute nearly half of all our utilities, are next to useless in all game modes. They need buffs and/or reworks, period.

Ghotistyx.6942:

I’m your analogy, you didn’t take into account what each person started with, nor did you say Mr Anetto was contractually obligated to provide each person with $200. Just because someone else gets something nice doesn’t mean you also have to get that same thing, and that doesn’t necessarily mean you end up being unequal.

Another thing to consider; perhaps Mr. Anetto wants all 9 people to have anywhere from $800 to $900 each. Each person is making their own money in addition to what Mr. Anetto has given them. Mr. Anetto doles out what he thinks will be enough money based on each individual’s different earning potential. Sometimes be guesses correctly, sometimes not. He readjusts how much money he gives out each pay period based on previous factors and future projections. At no point is he forced to make sure each person has the same dollar amount. He just tries to keep everyone in a close range.

Oh yay, my favorite game! So in the analogy, the cash refers only to mobility overall. True, across all classes, they may be balanced in total assets (some may have more expensive homes or cars to compensate for lower raw cash). Overall, if you look at guardians, our total assets are arguably lower than that of most classes – just look at where we are in terms of pve, spvp and WvW. I’d say the average that the other 8 have is $850 and we’re closer to $800. Giving guardians a bit of extra cash (mobility) isn’t going to imbalance us and I doubt anyone would complain. I’m pretty sure it would instead make a lot of us happy. It would also attract new people to the class. A lot of people can’t seem to pick up guardian solely because of the fact that it moves so slowly.

Of course, Mr. Anetto is not at all forced to give us the extra $100, and honestly I’m pretty sure our total assets are within a reasonable range compared to other classes. I’m just trying to make the argument that we should receive that extra $100 for many significant reasons and that there are very few strong arguments as to why we shouldn’t receive that $100. As Obtena pointed out, I’m a bit of an idealist here; realistically we probably won’t receive it, but that doesn’t change the fact that from a balance stand point, we should receive it.

Obtena.7952:

Professions are unique and those justifications are not sensible. lf you’re going to push for RS buff, it’s going to be based on the fact that it’s necessary to fulfill the concept of the class. Through the concept of Guardians, Anet decided that the buff wasn’t needed. Nothing has changed there if Anet didn’t change the class concept.

This is where our views differ. Pre HoT, I would have agreed with this statement. This is the whole reason ANet originally designed guardian without the +25% movement speed. However, things change over time, and that includes the range of capabilities a class possesses. Pre HoT, not every class had access to it. But now, every class except for guardian has access to a +25% movement speed util/trait. From a pvp and wvw balance standpoint I think that is a very compelling reason to give guardians a +25% movement speed buff somewhere.

Here’s a simple analogy to explain my argument: Mr. Anetto goves you 100$. That’s great right? Yeah! Free money is great, of course. Now then, imagine that at the same time you got that 100$, 8 other people around you get 200$. The value of that 100$ hasn’t decreased, but the disparity between you and those 8 others has. For the sake of fairness, I think it’s pretty obvious what Mr. Anetto should do.

Zenith.7301:

Situationally useful? Did you not hear the part about where WvW wouldn’t exist without guardians? Stability, aegis and CC are not situationally useful, they’re godkitten universal.

Guardians are far from situational. They’re plenty viable in raids, and the only place they’re weak at is spvp.

I mean, meta WvW is either staff/hammer or staff/GS, so with retreat and staff you have pretty much permanent swiftness.

If you’re complaining about open world PvE, retreat+staff is sufficient as you can swap out the staff before entering combat.

You’re taking my words out of context. I never said guardians themselves are situational. I was arguing that the stability, defensive options and subpar cc that guardians have are situational.

Can you name one other game mode/way of playing where these same utilities/traits are used by a majority of guardian players? I can only think of GvG which isn’t even a sanctioned game mode and also uses the same builds as organized WvW raiding so in a way it’s just an extension of WvW. In pve (raids, fractals, dungeon speed runs) it’s all dps with the occasional wall of reflection, and in spvp it’s medis/traps or bust. Even within wvw, guardians in havoc groups or roaming groups don’t run these utilities/traits, and in organized zergs there are even guardians that run longbow/backline with a fairly different setup than frontliners.

The GS/Staff meta for WvW frontlining is a situation in which guardians are brought out to their near full potential, but it’s not the only thing out there for us and balancing shouldn’t be done around this one game mode.

So yes I’ll reiterate: the stability, defensive options and cc we have are situational.

Obtena.7952:

Arcaedus.7290:

So you’re saying guardians don’t get mobility because they have some cc and defensive capabilities that are situationally useful? You know, I’d agree with you if elite specs didn’t exist. Fact of the matter is that literally every other class has a way to move at least 25% faster (through trait or non-activated utility) and at least 3 even have perma swiftness out of combat without sacrificing anything. It wouldn’t be a balancing issue to give guardians this same kind of access to +25% mobility, it would be qol.

Actually, that’s a good paraphrasing of Anet’s explanation so it seems your bone to pick is with Anet, not other people disagreeing with you.

The bone to pick is arguably anyone (ANet included) who disagrees that guardians should have access to +25% movement speed. Before HoT, guardians really didn’t need that +25% movement speed; the logic that has been mentioned in this thread applies to that time, but it no longer applies now.

Once HoT struck, the mobile classes became even more mobile (case and point: druid and daredevil), and at least one class which was originally equally or less mobile than us also surpassed us (chronomancer) for no good reason. Reaper is even in a better spot (mobility wise) than base guardian. And if you want to bring up our supportive aspect, well other classes out there can provide support that is equally important (druid, tempest, herald) yet still be far more mobile than us. Like the only thing we do better now than other classes is provide strong aoe stability. This is NOT by any stretch of the imagination a decent reason to deny guardians +25% movement speed.

Zenith.7301:

mrauls.6519:

It is sad to see so many Guardians constantly recommend that other Guardians use retreat, save yourselves, or staff to compensate for our sluggish movement speed. Why should we have to sacrifice utility slots for “certain” skills? Retreat is good, but we shouldn’t have to rely on it. Please stop recommending those skills to other Guardians. We NEED to be revamped!

Because in turn you fart out stability in a way nobody else can, you provide aegis to the group in a way nobody else can, you provide frontline lockdown in a way nobody else can, and alongside revenants you are the backbone of any melee group.

That’s why guardians don’t get mobility. Because their defenses and CC and defensive boon support added to the light fields that cleanse conditions right and left mean you can’t be a warrior with mobility.

I mean, are you really complaining? You could be as useless as a frontline necro, who also can’t escape/move around worth a kitten and does only a fraction of your damage, cc, and utility.

Guardian doesn’t need help. Dragonhunter, now that one does.

So you’re saying guardians don’t get mobility because they have some cc and defensive capabilities that are situationally useful? You know, I’d agree with you if elite specs didn’t exist. Fact of the matter is that literally every other class has a way to move at least 25% faster (through trait or non-activated utility) and at least 3 even have perma swiftness out of combat without sacrificing anything. It wouldn’t be a balancing issue to give guardians this same kind of access to +25% mobility, it would be qol.

zeight.5260:

The class clearly needs a buff and most people agree on that.

The issue is coming from the passive gameplay of the traps and that should not be up because it requires absolutely zero skill to use. This is precisely why beginners are moaning about DH because such a passive gameplay allows an average player to beat other average ones pretty easily without being more skilled.

This isn’t a valid argument against buffing guardian. Easy-to-use builds and passive gameplay exists for many builds/classes. Do traps need some nerfs? Yes arguably a couple small nerfs. Nerfing DH traps should be very low on the priority list though. I want to see all the fixes/buffs Rag mentioned before traps/DH/longbow gets nerfed again. Those fixes/buffs are long overdue.

Swagger.1459:

Please make longbow 2 mobile and slightly decrease the damage in exchange for the mobility.

I would like to see longbow 3 and 4 an enemy target skill without the aiming reticle. Increase the aoe radius of longbow 4 on impact.

Thank you for reading!

I’m don’t think these changes would benefit most DH players.

-Longbow 2’s damage does not need to be lowered any more. However, I would be partial to the following change: Make Longbow 2 mobile, and keep its damage the same. The damage is increased by 10% if you remain still while shooting it. This gives an incentive to use trueshot while not moving, but the trade off is the telegraph of the skill.

-Longbow 3 is fine. It takes practice to use this skill to its full potential and I like it the way it is now. I like being able to use this skill without having anyone targetted and shoot it in any direction I want.

-Lonbow 4; increase impact radius? Sure, not really a huge problem or priority imo, but it would be nice.

Currently in the game there are a number of skills that “destroy projectiles.” Just to name a few:

Death’s charge (reaper shroud skill #2)
Corrosive Poison Cloud (Necromancer utility skill)
Zealot’s Defence (Guardian sword #3)
Swirling winds (Ele, wind, focus #4)

There seems to be quite a bit of inconsistency between the tool-tip, the description, and the actual function of the skills in game. It seems that none of these skills (save for Death’s charge) can destroy unblockable projectiles. As for the inconsistencies:

Death’s Charge – tooltip and description match. Skill correctly destroys unblockable projectiles.

Corrosive Poison Cloud – tool tip says it blocks projectiles, description says it destroys them. Skill cannot destroy unblockable projectiles.

Zealot’s Defence – same issue as above.

Swirling winds – tool tip and description both suggest projectile destruction (no mention of blocking anywhere on this skill), yet skill cannot destroy unblockable projectiles.

Somewhere along the line here lies an inconsistency. Either quite a few skills should be capable of destroying unblockable projectiles, or Death’s charge should not. Would appreciate if this was looked into.

Rodzynald.5897:

I had a thought once.
If mesmers have their one of a kind boon that only they apply, then I thought about something special that only guardian could have and that isssss…
An improved aegis that will not block attacks but instead it will become a little damage sponge.
The thing is you get that improved aegis and it can withstand for about 10k of direct and condition damage, but only damage meaning that you can still get CC’ed (but not boon stripped, oh naw!)
This extra effect could come up with a new elite spec, what do you guys and ladies think?

I think this would be a fantastic idea for a future elite spec. Imagine an expac where all new elite specs focus on bringing new functionality to already existing mechanics (rather than making new utilities or class functions the focus). Guardian’s elite spec could being new functionality to aegis; aegis could now be a dps sponge rather than just blocking a single attack. This could also possibly be a major trait that is choosable in case players prefer negating single burst attacks.

Spirit weapons need some serious love. At this point, nearly anything that anyone has suggested over the past half-year is preferrable to what we have now.

Imo as a first step towards buffing spirit weapons, they should be made more reliable as utility skills. Change sword activate to a mobile skill, hammer activate is okay but should affect more targets, bow should be changed to an offensive/soft cc weapon and its activate should cleanse condis. Shield should stick to guardian better and its active should be an aoe stunbreak + boons for allies rather than a contradictory offensive skill.

Bow and shield have too long of a cd and should be shortened (to around 30 to 40s). Spirit weapons should also last indefinitely until killed.

Obtena.7952:

I think we should be careful about making assumptions about build templates; there are MANY ways these could be implemented and not make it easier to change gear quickly. I don’t believe anyone should hang their hat on that as a solution to deficiencies in a class.

There are many ways they could be implemented that would allow very fast switches though. I think from a design stand-point, build templates are more likely to be implemented as a convenience than a double-edged sword. Even if they were implemented poorly, we could just continue to do as we do now and ignore them.

Yannir.4132:

Class balance is very good actually at the moment, I’m only expecting minor tweaks here and there.

Only exception is DH/Guardian, which isn’t in a bad place either but it could use some more competitiveness. I’m also expecting some targeting improvements for revenants.

Ranked matchmaking on the other hand still needs a lot of work. The current matchmaking is the best one yet, but it’s not enough. It should distribute classes more evenly, and not drop 2 thieves in the same team as it does now. Or make 1 team include 4 necromancers.

DH has 3 overarching problems from a competetive aspect:

1. Lack of build diversity; all non-trap, non-medi utilities are undertuned and so are their respective traitlines. Signets, consecrations and spirit weapons all need reworking and about 30 to 40% of all of our traits do as well.

2. Significant amount of outdated weapon skills on most weapons, especially mace, staff, torch and hammer. Even on our “meta” weapons we have seemingly outdated skills; i.e GS 5 is too slow, GS2 has projectiles which shouldn’t be projectiles, third sword auto attack is a projectile (shouldn’t be a projectile), focus cds are a bit too high.

3. Too many projectiles on guardian weapons/too much aoe reflect. Certain skills and traits on other classes need some nerfing (sand squall on tempest, defensive field on scrapper). This may not actually be a problem if the projectile property on some weapon skills was removed.

Played well DH are actually quite competetive. I have almost no problems playing DH in ranked or unranked if the opposing team is lacking a tempest.

Imo scrapper only needs small changes, they aren’t as bad as many think. It’s true they have good sustain but their burst is very predictable. You dodge the hammer 5 and hammer 3 and it neuters their offence. Given this, a scrapper is still very forgiving to play and they do need some small nerfs.

I think the most important thing would be nerfing the functionality of the hammer skills (compensate on auto attack or #2 skill so they don’t lose dps). Hammer 3 should have a 15s cd and it should only evade on the first 2 leaps. Hammer 4 should completely have its damage gutted. Hammer 5 should have a 1s cast time, but increase the vuln stacks to 5. Their gyros are fine. Function gyro is a bit op, but I can’t think of a reasonable nerf that wouldn’t gut it. The toolbelt skill of bulwark gyro (defensive field) needs to be changed to projectile block instead of reflect though. Almost all other things I hear people complain about honestly have decent counterplay.

Saiyan.1704:

Kaizoku.1298:

So I was dueling a D/F ele, he cast air #4 (projectile destroying skill). I cast my F1 spear and it goes right through his skill and hit him, so it is not a projectile, can’t dodge it by reaction, pulls your opponents to you and low CD.

It’s a projectile that says unblockable on the tooltip. It can be “blocked” by objects on the field such as ground terrain. Whether or not it’s dodgeable is subjective.

More often than not, we’re reliant on it landing to pull off a ToF combo to win certain fights. It’s not as reliable as other classes who don’t need to try-hard like Guardians do.

If the guardian is about 600 to 900 units away from you, you aren’t going to dodge that spear. It just comes out too fast. The only reactionary counter I have seen is someone realizing they were hit with the spear, then popping stability or invuln so the pull wouldn’t work.

Yannir.4132:

aelska.4609:

9) Cleansing Flame (torch #5): affects also the character, not only the allies.

10) Mighty blow (hammer #2): allow back to use judge’s intervention while casting this skill. Since the patch where “judge’s intervention cannot be cast while mid-air anymore”, this combo has been made impossible and seriously affected the hammer.

°20) Adjust guardian base health to 15,922 (same as engineer, ranger, mesmer and revenant). Guardian’s crap defensive skills have long CD, guardian cannot disengage, guardian is slow, etc. . Low base health is not justified.

23) Do something with consecrations (utility). Actually, lowering the CD to 25s for ALL the consecrations is easy fix. It won’t make them op but can be interesting.

9. Or just throw the cleansing into torch 4, and the burning from torch 4 into Cleansing Flame. Would make more sense to me anyway.

10. Someone pls explain the significance in this? I don’t get it.

20. They can’t do this unless they do it for elementalist and thief as well. And I for one don’t want that. Even more unkillable eles would suck.

23. So a 10 s (even more when traited) pulsing stability that’s also a fire field doesn’t sound op to you on a 25 s (even less when traited) cd? I can’t agree with that. Consecrations do need some love, but not like this.

We used to be able to cast Mighty Blow, then right before the hammer hit the ground, JI to our target. This provided some fantastic burst if you paired it with focus 5, then a weapon swap to a weapon with hydromancy. Unfortunately they changed JI to only activate if you are not airborn and since mighty blow does lift you up in the air slightly, the combo was nerfed. It was a pretty bad nerf and along with moving Glacial Heart to a horrible place it ruined guardian hammer as meta weapon.

As for hallowed ground, 25s cd may be a tad bit too little but 80s cd is far too much. The cd should be closer to 40 seconds if you ask me.

I think a large number of players wouldn’t like the suicide skill as it would take a lot of the fun out of fighting someone. Even though you get the loot, it just sort of spoils it if at the end of the stomp, you get ccd and possibly single-downed.

That’s not to say we don’t need a 5th downed ability though. I think ANet should add a 5th class-specific downed ability that has sort of an “insane desperation” theme to it. One of said skills could be a suicide-like ability. It could be balanced by having a very long cool-down, so if you’re downed multiple times you can only use it once.

Saiyan.1704:

Speaking from a WvW standpoint, we can’t switch out staff/sigils/utilities very effectively. If we know we’re about to get ganked (or want to gank some one) then we’re pretty much caught with our pants down because we can’t swap out quickly.

If we had an instant Out of Combat swap between Mobility spec, Tank spec, or DPS spec then none of this would be an issue but… we don’t have one. It’s why this topic, as well as others, keeps getting brought up.

Quality of life is quality of life. Guardians could really use some loving.

That depends on how alert you are. I can click to change a utility bar skill in about 1 to 1.5 seconds max and unless I literally just rounded the corner into a waiting gank, I’m probably going to change that skill before getting ganked. A small qol that could alleviate this issue is allowing utility skills to be changed by right-click instead of clicking on that tiny little arrow. However I also agree with what you said for another reason; build templates needs to be a thing already!

Josh XT.6053:

You’re telling someone who has been roaming primarily since I started playing the game. I know that it is more than 1v1s, and I fight outnumbered all the time. I win 2v1s frequently, 3v1s are a bit more of a challenge – it would need to be 3 bad players lol. But I promise you that someone having better mobility isn’t going to be the difference maker. Their ability to run away from me isn’t going to win them a fight. I do 2v5s with my ele and a friend on revenant and win pretty easily pretty often and thieves are just easy kills for us lol.

What I meant is that roaming is more than just fights in general. Also, how do you define a “win?” For me, a win would be engaging someone (or someones) and either:

1. decidedly killing them
2. Forcing an indefinite retreat (which is arguably not a win at times).

Perhaps, let me explain by example: I encountered a druid roamer the other day on my guardian. This guy was quite possibly the most skilled solo-roamer I have ever encountered. We ended up fighting (non-duels, but mostly fair 1v1s) 4 times and I decidedly came out victorious. It still felt like a loss overall (for the ppt) because he was far more mobile than I, had very high damage and was smart. He was able to easily avoid me if he wanted, take camps before I could intervene, and intercept me at locations where he had the clear advantage.

In a sense, I could always win the fight (as long as it was a 1v1), but he was the better roamer. Had this been a 2v2 and up, the situation probably would have been skewed even more in his favor. A lot of that had to do with his mobility and ability to stealth, which helped him slip away from larger numbers or tough situations.

You’re right, higher mobility isn’t going to always help someone win the fight, but the fight isn’t what they always need to win.

mrauls.6519:

alain.1659:

Retreat’s swiftness is corruptable. That is the worst part of it. I use traveler’s runes for my dh. It is not the best, but it is ok.

ps: There should be a trait giving movement speed, or a signet.

There should definitely be a trait… not a signet… or if it has to be a signet, make the active effect give us super speed for 5 seconds and make us invulnerable to damage too

If it was given to us as a trait, there’s a good chance it would be a major rather than a minor and get stuck in one of the trait-lines not commonly used: Honor or Radiance. I could possibly see it in virtues (removing glaical heart) too. Eh, I’d rather the movement speed be given as a utility. If I’m traveling around and suddenly need to switch from my mobility back to regular skills, it’s much easier to navigate utility skills than traits.

mrauls.6519:

Make sword 1’s auto attack chain have a range of 150… Remove the 3rd part of the chain’s projectiles… Remake it into a normal slash that deals like 2.4k~ damage (since the mini projectiles do like 900 each).

Make it so sword 3 is a single projectile that covers a radius of 300 and works like lb 3

I think just changing the third auto attack to deal 3 × 900 damage but change the hits into non-projectiles would be just fine. I like that this attack synergizes well with virtue of justice (and some sigils). Honestlty though, it needs to be changed to non-projectiles. They did it for revenants which had literally THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM with their sword auto attack….

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Personally, I’d like to see the torch shine as a burn oriented weapon, while still maintaining its “cleanse with holy fire” theme. Here are my suggested changes:

Skill 4 – Zealot’s flame/fire

This skill is fine for the most part. But It would be cool if the zealot’s flame part of the skill (where you get set on fire) removed a condition from the user and nearby allies for each second the flame is active on you. This to me would be better suited as the condition remover skill and it would be easier to affect allies with it just by standing near them rather than trying to aim with Cleansing Flame.

Skill 5 – Cleansing Flame

Personally, I’d remove the condition removal from this skill. Instead, I’d change it so that Cleansing Flame removes boons from enemies with each tick and then applies a stack of burning for each boon removed.

This way the skill would still fit the theme of “cleansing” but you’re just cleansing the enemy of boons instead. I also think it makes more sense because the skill is much easier to aim on enemies than allies. The duration doesn’t need to change because the utility and burn these changes would add would make up for low physical dps and long cast time.

These two changes together I think would greatly improve the utility of torch, and make it more competitive as an offhand option (right now, there’s basically no reason to choose any other offhand over focus).

+1, I like these suggestions. We used to have a trait (before the trait/specializations revamp last summer) that removed boons on enemies that we burned. It was kind of a bummer to see that removed and not replaced anywhere else.

Euthymias.7984:

I think that energy cost should just be removed from weapon skills, honestly. I can deal with current energy costs if our weapon skills didn’t consume energy as well. It seems unfair to deal with energy+CD on skills while our utilities cost quite a bit of energy to use also.

This. Having cd-based weapon skills works perfectly for revenant. Imo if you disregard the energy costs, rev weapon skills already seem quite balanced around cds. Having the energy cost associated with weapon skills just strikes me as an odd inconvenience.

Josh XT.6053:

DoomKnightMax.6592:

My advice for t1 roaming, like people have previously stated is thief due to the mobility alone. But as for roaming in general. Leave t1 asap. It was a miserable roaming experience a year ago and with the condition builds avaliable now, I bet it’s even worse.

On that note, LOL EVERYONE HATES MERI

I don’t understand why everyone thinks thief is a good thing to roam on. I’ve literally never lost a fight to a thief on my ele, they either get completely rekt or they run away when they realize they do no damage and I do a lot..

If your idea of roaming is playing the class that can run away fastest, then go play thief, but if you want to actually win fights against people who aren’t just bad zerglings trying to get back to their zergs, go play a real class. Every time I see a thief or a mesmer roaming, all I think they are is a loot bag, or someone who is going to stealth and run. I’ll engage and if they don’t run, they’ll die. Easy life, play Ele.

Roaming is more than just being able to win 1v1s. You can easily get “out-roamed” by someone with higher mobility that knows they can’t beat you in a 1v1. Also, a thief may not be able to beat you in a 1v1, but how do you think that may change in a 2v2 and up?

Keksmuffin.1450:

Arcaedus.7290:

LazyDad.2037:

If you complain about retreat, what do you want? Signet of speed? Still going to use that utility slot for it.

Actually, I’m pretty sure a lot of people do want this. Suppose you use “Retreat!” just to get around. You suddenly come upon some action and, oh, retreat has 20s of cd…. it’s inconvenient, ESPECIALLY if you’re in WvW.

Well if the movement speed signet wouldn’t have an amazing active effect it would still be inferior to retreat even in that situation.

How so? I was thinking one could use this signet to move around, and when any action comes up, one could quickly switch back to the desired utility skill. This is what many necros do and what rangers used to do pre HoT. You can’t do this with retreat.

LazyDad.2037:

If you complain about retreat, what do you want? Signet of speed? Still going to use that utility slot for it.

Actually, I’m pretty sure a lot of people do want this. Suppose you use “Retreat!” just to get around. You suddenly come upon some action and, oh, retreat has 20s of cd…. it’s inconvenient, ESPECIALLY if you’re in WvW.

A full zerker Staff/LB druid is probably one of the most terrifying opponents for a DH to face. A competant one will have a lot of access to stealth (LB3, Smokescale f2 + staff 3, traited Celestial Avatar) and decent stun-break/stability access so it’s difficult to land a burst on them. If you make a mistake and they land rapid-fire on you, it’s lights out.

For your weapons, I highly recommend running either GS & LB or Sword/shield & Longbow (druids honestly don’t have that great of a way of dealing with the second weapon-set). Run Shelter instead of Purification. Purification is great vs. condi-builds and vs. melee-based classes but you’re going to need every block you can get vs. a power-based druid. Your utilities are otherwise fine. Try to stay close to them and land smite condition (through your heal and through utility) as often as you can and burst them after you see them blow utilities or after dodges. Use your blocks and projectile defences in anticipation of rapid-fire. Lastly, count the seconds they’re in stealth. They generally can’t stealth for more than 3 seconds, and tend to burst you with longbow from stealth. Near the end of their stealth period, prepare for that burst.

For fighting other regen/high sustain builds, just remember that they likely can’t chase you down. You should kite, bait them into blowing their utilities, then lay on some burst. To do this, you should probably use Longbow instead of Sc/F.

Finally: Ragnarox has some good advice; don’t be afraid to change out your utilities to meet the situation. Contemplation of Purity should be seeing some action on your utility bar; especially if you’re fighting a condition mesmer/necro/warrior. Watching the videos of other roamers can also show you how to handle specific foes and mrauls has some outstanding vids (his wvw roaming and his spvp vids).

Good luck and have fun!

Keksmuffin.1450:

i doubt that they will improve hammer auto since its already stupidly strong in pve. maybe if they finally split pvp and pve.

This is a good point but there are certain changes or buffs that would make a world of difference for guardians in pvp without overtuning it in pve.

For example: Reduce cast times for the auto chain, but also take a tick off of the symbol on the third attack (add extra duration of protection to compensate). This would make the auto chain more reliable in pvp, but wouldn’t hurt the pve dps.

Honestly the only thing devs have to worry about for hammer in pve is the auto attack chain. Buffs could be made to hammer 3, 4 and 5 without really affecting its pve performance all that much.

Kicast.1459:

This is a good idea….
Anet will certainly do it on rev sword aa then.

LOL! The cruelty lies within the fact that your comment is actually completely true when we switch from talking about guardian hammer to guardian sword auto attack.

Aeolus.3615:

Seyiwaji.4082:

OP is right All trap, Symbole should enter cooldown only after activation.
remember how people cried about Mantras.

That would be interesting.

but only after this:

Arcaedus.7290:

Whether or not DH traps need nerfing, there are much higher priorities on the list:

1. balancing other op classes, builds and skills.
2. Buffing base guardian
3. Reworking and buffing guardian weapons (sword, hammer, mace, scepter, staff especially).
4. Rework undertuned guardian utilities and traits.
5. Probably time to refer back to #1 again.
6. Now, mayyyybe look at traps.

@Arcaedus.7290, still can u imagine how the forums would explode if all classes were more balanced, with stuff like “omg cant do nothing, i got less win buttons”

Still gw2 is ment for everyone both bad and good players, just follow gimmick.

You need a good laugh every once in a while.

Whether or not DH traps need nerfing, there are much higher priorities on the list:

1. balancing other op classes, builds and skills.
2. Buffing base guardian
3. Reworking and buffing guardian weapons (sword, hammer, mace, scepter, staff especially).
4. Rework undertuned guardian utilities and traits.
5. Probably time to refer back to #1 again.
6. Now, mayyyybe look at traps.

kdaddy.5431:

Your next post will be hammer warriors with headbutt and bulls charge is op because my friends dont bring stun breakers or stability to there builds. Im sorry your friends got frustrated and quit playing PvP but i dont want Anet to balance around players who dont know how to play the game.

Countering DH traps takes a little bit more than just bringing stability or dodging reactively. The problem is that if somoene walks onto a point where all the traps are stacked at once, then the sudden damage they take is so ridiculously high that they are very unlikely to survive it. A fix could include a slight nerf to the worst offenders: Test of Faith and Dragon’s Maw.

Just an example of some minor nerfs that I think would make playing against DH more noob-friendly: ToF needs a 1/2s cast time, and Dragon’s Maw should deal less damage up-front and more damage over-time for staying caught in the jaws (compensation would probably include a decreased cd on this trap, or adding a fire-field to it).

It would be a bad idea for ANet to balance around new players, but we should have some pity on them. Sufficient barriers to entry are never a good thing.

Ragion.2831:

Arcaedus.7290:

Ragion.2831:

If you think about it, the power creep is a step in the right direction. The main problems are DH traps,

Lol.

Naturally of course, take it out of context, shows how smart you are doesn it.

There isn’t much out of context about your power-creep statement. It is NOT a move in the right direction. The very reason we have a negative connotation to the name implies that it is a disfavored direction for pvp balance.

I laugh at your DH traps statement (as well as the rest of your context) for a variety of reasons.

“Buffing guardian directly will make traps look broken”? Uh no, buffing traps will make traps look broken.

No skill to use? I disagree. There are a couple traps that take quite a bit of skill to utilize effectively. Also, what does it matter that they take no skill to use, plenty of other utilities and even entire builds for other classes fit this bill.

Almost no cast time? Yeah, two out of six of them fit this description. As for the others, well literally every other trap in the game has a 1/2 s cast time, so this is not a valid argument against guardian. Traps going on cd as soon as they are laid down is also shared across other classes, again not a valid argument against guardian.

Then you dug yourself in an even deeper hole:

Ragion.2831:

Traps by itself are pretty strong. The problem is guardian sustain. I am hoping you guys arent so shortsighted that you cant see this.

The problem is now not traps, but guardian sustain? REALLY? We have like one build that has enough sustain that can even hope to keep up with the current meta. Also, it usually isn’t enough sustain unless you play the guardian superbly.

Look, EVEN IF every single point you made was valid, fact is other things need nerfing/other guardian skills need buffing before we look at nerfing guardian traps or sustain. As someone who has extensively played with/against traps, I’ll grant you that the only real nerf we immediately should be given is a 1/2s cast time to Test of Faith. That’s it for now. Long-term balancing of traps should be approached later on after aforementioned nerfs to other classes/buffs to guardians have been executed.

Shaogin and Saiyan: You two bring up excellent counter-arguments. I agree that there would be a lot (probably too much) to change in order to implement such a priority system. One way or another, I am of the opinion that certain condi builds are problematic in the current pvp meta, and this was my idea on “fixing” it. I am definitely a fan of Shaogin’s suggestion for condition-specific cleanses, although these would have to be more wide-spread and a lot of skills would need some slight redesigning. And Saiyan, your suggestion of looking at condi application is probably the most effective one, however I’ve seen it suggested so many times before with no real response from devs.

Here’s to hoping it gets addressed….some time….. within the next year…

Velimere.7685:

It is strategy that sees thorough application in this game, so of course I am going to call it what it is regardless as to any contrary personal disagreement that you may or might have with reality concerning the fact of the matter. Your attempt at a rebuttal (if you want to call it that) cites further preexisting strategy that also already sees thorough application and is thus a moot point altogether that does not serve your agenda. If you want to argue with me, then I suggest that you first present an actual argument. Cheers!

It’s more akin to smart theorycrafting that exploits the lifo system. For the most part there is very little strategy to it. You condi bomb, and then take it for granted that the 1 stack of vuln gets cleansed first. There is perhaps some strategy if you condi bomb, then weapon-swap to a weapon with geomancy or doom (assuming your respective big guns aren’t bleed or poison). Also, yes condi-bombing after cleanses is currently existant, however in many cases it behooves one to condi bomb on cool-down as condi application > condi cleansing overall. This system may better condition players (pun fully intended) to condi-bomb after cleanses rather than on cooldown.

Ragion.2831:

If you think about it, the power creep is a step in the right direction. The main problems are DH traps,

Lol.

Shaogin.2679:

Interesting to test sure. But Anet doesn’t have a great track record at reverting changes they made no matter how bad they are. Which means if it doesn’t work, we could be stuck with something worse than we have now.

Also, longer durations on condis wouldn’t be much of a compensation at all, considering most condi builds don’t bother trying to go for a lot of condi duration due to the frequency of condis being cleansed.

But from how you described it, it sounds like the condi player will just constantly be apply conditions on the target, waiting for him to use up all of his cleanses, and then burst him when he uses his last cleanse. Which of course would only work if that player’s other condi cleanses are not off cooldown by then, and of course if the condi player hasn’t died before then.

Maybe it could work if resistance and condi cleanses were heavily reduced, because again in the situation you explained, a power Scrapper would be able to destroy any condi build without worry.

By test, I meant on private servers/testing by game devs. No way I’d want them to just suddenly spring this upon us in game haha. Also from my experience, most condi builds have more than one condi-bomb just as power-based builds have more than 1 way to lay on some burst throughout a fight.

The main reason I suggested this system is to give a bit more of a fighting chance to builds which inherently don’t have much condi-cleanse (any power-based rev for example), reinforce the play-style of a condi-build, and also make things a bit more fair for condi-builds that don’t have access to a legitimate amount of cover-condis (burn guard for example). Other compensation may be necessary, such as increasing condi-application for various weapon/util/traits, or reducing resistance durations.

Velimere.7685:

Saku Joe.2857:

Ever heard about L.i.f.o…??

What he said. As someone who prefers power meta over condition meta, I still have to favor the strategy that goes into condition covering. I just can’t agree with a dumbed down system like this over LIFO which has actual strategical merit.

I addressed this earlier. Yes such a system would take the “strategy,” (if you want to call it that) out of cover condis, but the need for strategic choices would arise elsewhere, specifically in watching for condi cleanses and heals and deciding when to lay on the condi-bomb.

Shaogin.2679:

Arcaedus.7290:

Shaogin.2679:

Pretty much this.

You are asking for some of the strategy to be taken out of condi play just to make cleansing more brain dead. That’s a balancing step in the wrong direction.

Now cleanse skills that cleanse specific condis, I’m all down for. That helps to provide more skillful condi cleansing.

Can’t say I agree with this. As it is right now, there are so many instances where cover condis are cleansed seemingly because of luck, or how the original skill was designed (applies deadly condi first, then weaker condis later) rather than because the user applied condis in a certain order.

Contrary to what you said, I think such a system would involve a lot of strategy for condi builds. For instance, playing as a condi build, you would have to decide when to keep low-medium amounts of condis on and when to condi-bomb as opposed to just constantly condi-bombing on cool-down knowing that your single stack of vulnerability is going to get cleansed first. A condition build is not meant to be an alternative way to burst people down. It’s an entirely different play-style, and a priority system like this actually has the potential to reinforce that if designed properly.

Anet seems to want condi builds to be an alternative way to burst people down, so I can’t agree with you there. If cleanses prioritized damaging conditions, my Scrapper would never die to condi damage, period. I played Engi for so long that I know when to best use my cleanses and how to prioritize. When playing a condi class against someone that knows how to properly cleanse, I have to bait out cleanses and defense skills, then condi bomb at the right time and then lay on some cover conditions. This proposed change would mean no matter what I do on a condi build, the enemy can negate my damage any time he wants.

I don’t think ANet actually believes that despite the position condition builds are in now. We can both theorize the way in which this system would play out on paper. Take note that I suggested compensation would include longer duration of conditions for skills that applied fewer stacks of conditions. The image I had in my mind is that a condi-build could at all times be keeping up a handful of damaging condi stacks. This would keep the condis in one of the lower tiers so that the target player would either be cleansing higher priority things (blind, immob, fear, taunt, chill, that stack of 10 vuln) that don’t do damage, or be forced to eat the condi damage and save the condi-clear. Once the target has blown most/all of their condi cleanse, a condi bomb will destroy them.

If the target is bringing a large amount of condi clear, then honestly that should be a soft-counter to a condi-build (which doesn’t seem to be the case currently for some condi builds). Many/most classes can’t do this without gimping their offence anyway. Overall it looks pretty balanced on paper to me. Whether it would turn out balanced or not, I think such a system is worth testing.

Jack Skywalker.5674:

@Arcaedus.7290 & Ghotistyx.6942, here is where I do not get you guys…how is having twice as much or 4 times as much slow moving orbs,which are easy to dodge because they come from one location and lack any means of tracking it’s target considered bullet hell?

When I think bullet hell I think about the images in the article bellow
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/ten-great-bullet-hell-shooters

The reason why those games are competent forms of bullet hell is because they apply pressure of some form (they either deal buck ton of damage,come at a scary speed and shred your hp or both). Scepter AA fails miserably at being a threat and I don’t think it’s a vaild concept for a class focued on front line support via the means of defensive magic.

You know who got manage bullet hell.Mesmers.Give them a projectile based weapon ( any form of bow,rifle, main hand pistol, or main hand axe as ranged weapon – cuz rangers ffs) and give those weapons the ability to create a field you can’t escape and a spamable fast traveling bullet which bounces of the field of that impassable dome…that would be bullet hell done alright (impressions may vary based on travel speed of projectile and damage of projectile).
Give Mesmer clones the ability to generate more bouncing projectiles in said dome…that can become a hard core bullet hell minigame.

Back on toppic:If bullet hell is the theme for the Scepter’s offensive capabilities (I will never understand why Anet would want this sort of effect on a class whose primary focus is frontline support,based on official website description),then we need to make a way for scepter to apply pressure, and what I would recomend is this. Buff Scepter #3 with the ability to apply a debuff to the target which attracts the projectiles generated by party members and caster and buff the travel speed of Scepter Orbs or their damage in some way.

Final note…in a world with Guns and Bows….why don’t we have repeater crossbows?

We’re arguing semantics here. “Bullet hell” may mean something different to Ghosti than to you or I. Scepter did used to apply pressure. It was a constant source of dps in close to mid-ranged fights and while not particularly deadly, it often forced opponents to reposition themselves or else charge in with a large chunk of their health gone. It was one of the reasons that thieves used to hate fighting medi-guards so much. You can dodge the ‘bullet-hell," of rangers with two or maybe one dodge. For scepter AA, you’re going to be eating it eventually. It may not be at the moment that the guardian starts chucking the orbs, but it will be eventually if you stay and fight. That’s how scepter worked pre-HoT.

You may not like the design of scepter’s auto attack (I don’t either, believe me), but the game devs have already decided the direction in which this weapon has moved /will continue to move. I was trying to make suggestions that would improve the situation for us without asking devs to completely redesign a weapon.

Shaogin.2679:

Pretty much this.

You are asking for some of the strategy to be taken out of condi play just to make cleansing more brain dead. That’s a balancing step in the wrong direction.

Now cleanse skills that cleanse specific condis, I’m all down for. That helps to provide more skillful condi cleansing.

Can’t say I agree with this. As it is right now, there are so many instances where cover condis are cleansed seemingly because of luck, or how the original skill was designed (applies deadly condi first, then weaker condis later) rather than because the user applied condis in a certain order.

Contrary to what you said, I think such a system would involve a lot of strategy for condi builds. For instance, playing as a condi build, you would have to decide when to keep low-medium amounts of condis on and when to condi-bomb as opposed to just constantly condi-bombing on cool-down knowing that your single stack of vulnerability is going to get cleansed first. A condition build is not meant to be an alternative way to burst people down. It’s an entirely different play-style, and a priority system like this actually has the potential to reinforce that if designed properly.

Regon Phoenix.8215:

Jack Skywalker.5674:

Imune to death, unblockable stun, extra healing to downed….f@ck me not even Herald and Reaper are this op.

Reapers were op? When?

Season 2, condi reaper.

We’ve all had that experience: Someone sprays a bottle of premium super herpes on you, you decide it’s time to go to the hospital and get checked out and then you cleanse everything BUT those 20 stacks of bleeding. No fun, right? I would argue that this isn’t the point of condition builds. Condition builds are about wearing the opposition down over time; not taking advantage of cheap mechanics, sometimes seemingly by luck. Since classes will only receive increased access to all conditions in future updates/expacs, some of the more powerful conditions are no longer going to be balanced by being “rare.”

To address this issue, I think there should be a priority or tier-list in which condition cleanses in this game act in order to treat conditions. This tier list takes into account stacking, but not duration. I have not really considered condition durations in here as I think that would complicate the math behind this process a bit too much.

The general idea behind the priorities here is to cleanse the conditions most threatening to self first. So, without further ado, here is a tier-list of the order in which cleanses should remove condis in my opinion.

-Tier 1: 10+ stacks of bleed, 5+ stacks of confusion, 5+ stacks of torment, 7+ stacks of poison, 3+ stacks of burning

-Tier 2: Fear, Taunt

-Tier 3: Immobilize, chill

-Tier 4: Cripple, slow, blind

-Tier 5: 2-4 stacks of confusion, 5-9 stacks of bleed, 3-4 stacks of torment, 1-6 stacks of poison, 1-2 stacks of burning.

-Tier 6: 10+ stacks of vulnerability, weakness

-Tier 7: 1 stack of confusion, 1-2 stack of torment, 1-4 stacks of bleed

-Tier 8: 1-9 stacks of vulnerability.

*Note: Condis of the same tier should be removed as they are now (based on which was most recently applied).

Some final notes: I understand that this system isn’t perfect but would probably work better than what we have now. Since a system like this is essentially a nerf to condi-bombs, compensation should include longer durations on skills that apply low amounts of condis (to keep the damage up over time).

**Also, take note that I only know a small amount of coding. I wouldn’t be surprised if a game dev told me that implementing a system like this wouldn’t be possible. I visually imagine that the system would work like this: once applied condis on a target meet the threshold for the tiers, they will reorganize themselves in order under the target’s hp bar (tier 1 at the left, tier 8 at the right), and then condi cleanses will cleanse from left to right.

OP, I like your suggestion, it would definitely make me pick up scepter again. However, I’d have to agree with Ghosti on the design/style of scepter. The projectile speed works just fine at around 300-600 range and does indeed create a field of hurt. Well, it definitely used to before HoT power-creep. Scepter is an okayish weapon but could use some improvements:

1. Low damage. This could be fixed by either upping attack speed as Ghosti suggested, or increasing attack power. Increasing attack speed would also reduce the effect of mini-strafing essentially nullifying scepter auto attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSJ0pqRwjuU).

2. Scepter 2 isn’t a symbol. It also doesn’t do much damage against other players for a few reasons, but I believed this could partially be fixed by making it a symbol. This is more of an overarching problem though; I think guardians should have access to at least 1 symbol no matter what their weapon-set is. This means either attaching a symbol to offhands (unlikely) or having every main-hand weapon sport a symbol.

3. Cooldown on scepter 3 is a bit too high. Single-target, non-projectile, mild cast time, 900 range immob for 2 seconds. If you just gave me those stats, I’d guess the cd to be about 15 seconds (untraited) in accordance with HoT skills out there.

RodOfDeath.5247:

I’d like to see the boon “protection” reduce condition damage myself, just slightly because classes will get insanely OP if anet doesn’t set it right. Vampiric rituals with my necro really helps with roaming so I can run a little power instead of boring condi meta.

In addition to this, I think weakness should cause the afflicted player’s applied conditions to either last 25% less time or do 25% less damage.

As someone who has dueled against many necros (mostly wvw) I think it should NOT be 0%.

Now if I lose to a necro who started at 100% will I blame it on the fact that they started at 100%? Probably not. However I I don’t think a necro needs to start at 100% LF to be competetive in a duel.