Guild Wars 2

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, let me preface this by saying that I am a Warrior main. As such I hate all stealthing classes and find them boring to fight and generally obnoxious. However, I used to feel that in most situations where I wasn’t backstabbed at 25% HP (I’m OK with that that’s what the rouge archetype does) I had a fair chance if I avoided the initial burst.

Tonight that view changed. My guild encountered a Thief that had the ability to not only survive an onslaught of 3 players, but could also hit hard enough to down us. He never got to stomp because we all know to lay down CC on the downed guy then res, but the fact was that the second you got his health low he would vanish and then appear shortly after back at full health. These are not bad players. Most of us hit all of our skills but it never mattered, they could always escape, heal up, then go right back on the offense. D/P Thieves I can beat by forcing them to use their countermeasures then popping Zerker Stance and going for the kill, but this build had countermeasures on such a short CD that multiple CC focused builds couldn’t stop him.

I can’t say I know enough about Thief traits to say exactly what they were running but I do know that the combination of Sword/Dagger could strip our Guardian of boons and then burst them down. Their use of Infiltrator’s Return and Withdraw allowed them to quickly disengage when things looked hairy. What made things worse is that we KNOW we downed him via the scream, but because they always stealthed when they got low they could just stack more stealth while we flail around with no clear idea of where he was. THAT is what ate at me the most. They went down, but because getting downed doesn’t reveal you (which is stupid) you aren’t always punished for it.

It felt like it was less about their personal skill and more that the stealth itself allowed them to do things that shouldn’t be possible. This isn’t your ambush class archetype, this is sustained assassination. Even though we chained CC’d, Immob, you name it, it didn’t matter because all they had to do was chain stealth a few times and they would be all healed up again.

Rogue-like classes are supposed to excel at either high amounts of burst damage via ambushing their target or being more of a bruiser and using dexterity to avoid getting hurt but staying in the fray. In GW2 as a Thief it is possible to do both in one build. It seems that if you mess up your ambush you aren’t generally punished, you can simply stealth up and try again. I am so sick of this “you can still hit them when they’re stealthed” because while that’s true said Thief can use any number of methods to get the hell away from the danger all while healing up. This will only get worse on the 15th when they’ll be tougher while stealthed.

It seems like it’s too late to do a total redesign of Thief, but what we need is more anti-stealth mechanics in the game. Giving even a single ability to apply reveal for a few seconds would give you a chance to punish a Thief for screwing up. The same applies to Mesmers, the ability to harm your foe while remaining invisible offers little counterplay and simply shouldn’t exist.

There are so many things wrong with this post.

Namely 1 2 3 4 dodge/block.

I didn’t understand why this was posted until I realized it was Burr.

I have ZERO problems against thieves on any of my classes

ps. Once you figure out how to fight thieves the cheapest specs thar are cheesy are heavily specced into trickery. .

What thief ability has not been reported as being OP? Maybe Dancing Dagger??

They’ve not started in on all the traits yet I see though

I was wondering what was going on until I came to the realization that this happened in T1.

Did anyone notice how empty OS is in T1???

If this is true I applaud anet on a job well done

10 0 30 0 30

It’s WvW and this S/D spec be pr0.

Crit Damage Nerf is not being done because of PvE. If you honestly believe that I got a couple miles of beach front property on Mars for sale.

This is being done solely because of WvW

wtf sPvPs???? That crap is terrible.

Ptolemy.5086:

Azukas.1426:

Not any other good GM traits so ofc PU is taken pretty consistently. What I don’t understand is how people call it cheese or OP’ed when all you have to do is keep the Mesmer on target or just simply run away given most mesmers don’t spec appropriately.

A lot of PU mesmers run 3-4 invis skils. Decoy actually transfer target from mesmer to clone and all other invis skills remove target from mesmer.
You can run from fully cond PU mesmer with Staff Sc/T but it is not that easy to run away from power PU with GS Sw/P especially with Traveler/Centaur/Speed runes.

Are people really that bad at this game to consistently get completely fooled by clones and phatasms???? I’m new to this game and even I realize which is fake.

Not sure if OP is serious

Not any other good GM traits so ofc PU is taken pretty consistently. What I don’t understand is how people call it cheese or OP’ed when all you have to do is keep the Mesmer on target or just simply run away given most mesmers don’t spec appropriately.

Meglobob.8620:

Thief underpowered…lol

Thief vs Warrior 1vs 1, same skill level, thief wins 100% of the time. Thief 1vs 1 with any of the other 7 classes, thief win 100% of the time and you can have the fight knowing there’s 0% chance of you dieing. Worst case scenario for any half decent thief you get driven off and after find some other poor sap to kill…

Completely false and sheds light on how good of a player you actually are.

Sensotix.4106:

Azukas.1426:

Yes thieves need drastic changes.

Mug to crit again
CnD damage reinstated
3 sec reveal
BS damage increased by 20%

maybe in your world but not in pvp

I main a mesmer and this needs to happen so thieves can have a chance

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

Azukas.1426:

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

He’s not using shadow “im bad at the game” arts so ofc he is gonna over evade to compensate for lack of sustain. Thats how 30 in acrobatics works.

Congrats on the legendaries, what are the songs in the video though?

Ya you don’t need Shadow “Im bad at the game” Arts when running in a “small skill group” of 35 ppl either amirite??

Not sure what that has to do with thieves, but there arent even 35 people in Agg.

=/

I was agreeing with you….

Nice lie too btw

Yes thieves need drastic changes.

Mug to crit again
CnD damage reinstated
3 sec reveal
BS damage increased by 20%

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

He’s not using shadow “im bad at the game” arts so ofc he is gonna over evade to compensate for lack of sustain. Thats how 30 in acrobatics works.

Congrats on the legendaries, what are the songs in the video though?

Ya you don’t need Shadow “Im bad at the game” Arts when running in a “small skill group” of 35 ppl either amirite??

Unless we can get 10 v 10 and have the ability to properly build for it the game mode is a fail.

If Anet would get over the whole conquest mode that kills this game that is

I just would like to see them be removed from stealth when attempting attacks be if they miss.

I run the same weapon set with a different trait path. I always found sword/pistol best for when they eventually run, and believe me, they all eventually run.

whats broke with it?

a good starting point would be to spend some of that money you’re raking in to buy the best servers that are available.

GvG is a good thing… sPvP is a bad thing.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Azukas.1426:

Sons.5493:

Azukas.1426:

Pure condi builds take precious time to get their killswhich result in having to get dem stacks back up.

Nope, i’d even dare to say some of the burst cond builds out there have more burst than some power builds.

I haven’t seen it yet, but I will readily admit that my playtime is rather limited to most on here though.

He is correct, but only because not all power builds are meant to burst. Some are intended for sustained damage (such as any necro Power build).

However, compare any condi burst to any power burst, and the power build blows conditions out of the water like Mythbusters blows up trucks.

well that is what I was getting at with my initial post. I’m used to different lingo from other games and I ended up not explaining myself properly, thanks.

Harper.4173:

I’ve ALWAYS said that if people feel that Warrior is OP they should ask for buffs for their own respective classes.
I’ve always said I feel warriors are balanced and that other classes should be brought up to be on par with them.

I’m sorry sir but what you’ve described here is exactly the very essence of unbalanced classes.

Sons.5493:

Azukas.1426:

Pure condi builds take precious time to get their killswhich result in having to get dem stacks back up.

Nope, i’d even dare to say some of the burst cond builds out there have more burst than some power builds.

I haven’t seen it yet, but I will readily admit that my playtime is rather limited to most on here though.

Interesting thread. New to the game (maguuma ftw) but I’ve played quite a few MMO’s focused on PvP. First thing I have noticed is that condi builds are pretty solid and a bit stronger than pure DPS, but they in no way, shape, or form provide the gankimg power of full DPS. Knowledgeable players who run these builds can easily destroy players in 1vX encounters and then have time to either get out to keep their stacks or try for another before adds come. Pure condi builds take precious time to get their kills which result in having to get dem stacks back up. To me it’s a balanced ratio where a few minor tweaks are needed to bring certain outlier classes inline with the rest.

phaeris.7604:

Stealth should break on attack.

If I put up arcane shield on my mesmer, it will absorb all three attacks without the thief breaking stealth.

Why call it stealth when in fact it’s just unbreakable invisibility. It confers such massive advantages and damage increases yet has absolutely no trade offs.

To be fair then we mesmers get revealed when a clone attacks or using one the many stay stealthed while doing damage abilities

1st someone complained about whirling Axe steal and now we have this

Mind blown

I’ve read this thread many times before it seems…

Get over it the meta will be changing a bit after the patch. 1v1 mesmer > thief

You’re just focusing on 1 aspect of the game

To counter a thief using d/p is to use your dazes/stuns after they begin the HS animation.

This will cause them to spend 9 initiative for zero stealth. They got 3 left now so they aren’t visiting the cheese stealth mode for quite some time.

Or you can do what the rest of us do against thieves who run d/p. Begin the good attacks outside the BP and clear the initial blinds

RyuDragnier.9476:

Azukas, D/P thieves are the only thieves I cannot counter easily, every other weaponset I have a counter prepared for.

Than you need to learn how to play instead of going on this nerf D/P crusade. Pick it up for a few weeks and I bet you’ll find out quickly how to counter one.

Though you’ll have to leave the blob to achieve this

RyuDragnier.9476:

It’s considered cheesy because with a full 30 points into the traitline, you can remove conditions in stealth, heal while in stealth, and can even gain back initiative while in stealth. Any thief who plans on going into stealth often (D/P stealth spammers) will take the full points because they’re going into stealth so often that those traits give them massive sustain everytime they re-enter it. It’s very easy for a D/P thief with 30 in SA to completely dominate the fight just because it’s incredibly hard to deny them the stealth and thus that sustain.

So it’s OP because they get healed for a measly 300 a second and utilize the ONLY condi clear? No D/P thief is running gain more initiative in stealth as their 3rd trait.

It’s easy to deny D/P thieves stealth and I do it quite often.

I find 30 trick builds much more OP than any SA build. Sorry but your crusade against SA thieves is baseless. The only thing you are proving is your in ability to counter your own class….which is mind boggling until you read your guild tag.

Here’s my point

What about the SA line is cheesy???

Condi clear?

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

Great changes and is a testament to Anet’s willingness to balance their game properly. No skill engineers will whine but the good ones will adapt and still rip.

Bravo Anet

The no skill ones are the one who whined for its nerf.
Guess timing condi bursts instead of using skills randomly is too difficult a concept for the majority of pvp players.

But yeah, just screw with the class further, it isn’t like many will bother.

Aerathnor.8305:

Not saying I disagree with it being changed, but if the mark for something needing a nerf is 40%-45% of a class taking a trait then they need to look at Cleansing Ire or Empathic Bond.

I’d guarantee that at least half of Warrs and Rangers take those as they are the best things to use against condis, much like AR is/was for engis. Your benchmark for OP might be a little flawed is all I’m saying.

Usual incoherency in balancing. Something is used by the majority of warriors? It is because the others are bad, buff the others.
Something is used by the majority of engineers? Nerf it under the excuse of increasing build diversity (by leaving only crap things to use).
What do you expect from a class that has fixed penalities for optional utilities and has its kits balanced upon grandmaster traits? Engineer balancing never made sense to begin with.

When you balance the game you don’t take outliers into consideration (your top or bottom 5-10%). You take the average player and make your adjustments since they make up the majority of your player base. You can scream and cry all you want but these changes are extremely intelligent and needed.

cyyrix.6105:

Azukas.1426:

Minto.9201:

Azukas.1426:

cyyrix.6105:

Ask thieves in this thread how they feel about Prismatic Understanding (mesmer GM trait). In their responses, replace the word “mesmer” with “thief” and the words “Prismatic Understanding” with “Shadow Arts”.

That’s your answer.

I’m sure any thief would swap PU with SR in a heartbeat…..

I’m sure you would but he said SA not SR.,,

GM trait for GM trait….you wanna swap lines is different story

I know you were just trying to be cute, but it’s important to consider build concepts as a whole. Regardless of which traits provide which mechanics, the playstyles of a Shadow Arts thief and a Prismatic Understanding mesmer are quite similar.

So what you’re saying is you have no point???

Yet my statement still stands. Everyone complains about in healing in stealth but seem to forget that there are traits like PU that kitten all over SR

oZii.2864:

Khalic.3561:

Unless you’re relying on traits/sigils/runes that require crit to proc, the damage increase from precision on a build with less than 2400 attack is pretty minimal. Dire builds in general can hit very hard for the amount of survivability they’re given. Especially compared to how much survivability many crit builds have to give up to do the same damage a bit quicker. Let’s be honest, while it’s not instantaneous, there are plenty of condi build out there that can deal damage fast enough to be called “burst”.

With the reduction in crit damage, I definitely expect to see even more condi setups in small scale WvW.

I thought that too then I crit with pry bar on my engineer for 1.2-1.5k and non crit for 854. I don’t call that minimal damage increase of course it helps that the base damage is already high which it is for many engi attacks why they can hybrid decently.

If your a necro running scepter then that scales like crap with direct damage so it’s a no brainer. Thief doesn’t need precision for anything in a condi build why carrion was the popular choice before. Mesmers need the precision if they plan to kill anyone at all with a condi build that is already weak on condi spike ability.

As a Mesmer precision is pretty important given the amount of bleeds that are given as a result of crits.

Adapt. Go more hybrid since full condi is a bit boring.

Great changes and is a testament to Anet’s willingness to balance their game properly. No skill engineers will whine but the good ones will adapt and still rip.

Bravo Anet

Warriors will be fine and still be the best class overall in this game

Minto.9201:

Azukas.1426:

cyyrix.6105:

Ask thieves in this thread how they feel about Prismatic Understanding (mesmer GM trait). In their responses, replace the word “mesmer” with “thief” and the words “Prismatic Understanding” with “Shadow Arts”.

That’s your answer.

I’m sure any thief would swap PU with SR in a heartbeat…..

I’m sure you would but he said SA not SR.,,

GM trait for GM trait….you wanna swap lines is different story

Allie Murdock.8152:

mango.9267:

Allie Murdock.8152:

sPvP players don’t get experience by playing in it. In WvW, players gain experience from events and killing things.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, just pointing out that the two don’t really compare.

Players also got experience for the LA events. And much more of it than they would have gotten if they’d spent that time playing WvW. And yet, they could still buy tomes.

Fair enough! That is a better comparison, although the LA content was not permanent content.

Yet living story is basically permanent

I can see tomes being available for each event too

cyyrix.6105:

Ask thieves in this thread how they feel about Prismatic Understanding (mesmer GM trait). In their responses, replace the word “mesmer” with “thief” and the words “Prismatic Understanding” with “Shadow Arts”.

That’s your answer.

I’m sure any thief would swap PU with SR in a heartbeat…..

All those things were indirectly or directly nerfed by the suggestions in this thread.

What aspect of the thief do yall not wanna nerf???

PW is bad because of the same reason Warriors are bad.

IQ requirement is at the level of an ape

S/D has an insane auto chain and LS hits for a boat load as well

S/P is a mindless 3 spamming weaponset that needs to be toned down. If it was actually more active in the play style it would be OK

Unfortunately you just hit 3 a few times and let the game do the work

Are people still dying to thieves????

Let’s move on b/c thieves are FAR from the most OP class in this game. I’ve killed them with every class in the game and RARELY die 1v1 against thieves…..or 1v2…..maybe 1v3 but I do get 1-2 of em.

Black Scoutsman.5830:

Realist.5812:

Black Scoutsman.5830:

Now that they have taken your damage away?? my god you would think with all the outrageous QQ on these forums that the “crit dmg to ferocity nerf” is going to gut damage builds. YOU ARE STILL GOING TO BE DOING DAMAGE. They are not removing the power spec, and the amount of time it takes a zerker group to cruise through a dungeon, or a backstab thief to cruise through a zerker ele is going to be about 1 maybe 2 seconds longer in each case. This forum does not need any more drama queen as we are rapidly approaching critical mass in that aspect. The game has much bigger fish to fry than a 10% dmg decrease to the highest DPS builds in the game.

Look at this example, drama queen.

Condi bunker > power build in 1v1, due to how easy passive play Condi spam is, and how easy it is to tank at the same time and faceroll.

Let’s say that in Condi build vs power build, Condi build is 1.5x stronger.

After nerfing crit damage, Condi build now becomes 2x stronger than power builds, all year round.

Yeah I can make up arbitrary numbers too. LEts say roaming around wvw on my zerker warrior i run across 5 condi bunkers. I beat 3 of them and 2 beat me. So Zerker warrior is 20% better than condi bunkers. Take a 10% damage buff and I am only 10% better off vs condi bunkers. See how ridiculous your argument becomes when you enter in random subjective numbers?? I beat condi bunkers with power builds ALL THE TIME. is it hard? yeah. it is. That doesnt mean that condi is automatically “1.5 times better than power” lol l2p

You’da killed all 5 as a condi warrior

Invigorating precision + SoM + Assassin’s reward

There’s the sustain thieves been asking for in large group fights

Problem is Anet moved the acro trait to GM lulz

Sounds like you bros need to adapt or die