Guild Wars 2

Weapon – Kodan Shovel

Shouders – T1 Norn
Chest – T3 Norn
Gloves – Whisper’s Gauntlet
Pants – Braham’s Set
Shoes – Phalanx Boots

Sort of my take on Norn cultural armor.

waste utility slots on easy mode world trash mobs? no thanks, rather equip more dps utilities.

Point is ignoring active defenses and utilities time and time again seems to become a trend, a trend on promoting idiocy.

If they don’t want huge reflect damage then either code it to destroy the projectiles or make it do damage in proportion to the player’s base power. Problem solved, active defenses still valuable rather than throw it out the window.

IMO they’re just being lazy

So anet is trying to make this game more dumb or what?

Yet again, boss blitz has introduced attacks that cant be blocked or obvious projectiles that cannot be blocked or reflected.

People immediately screaming cartels/manipulators without a shred of evidence, brilliant.

Serbianwolf.1652:

I play with warrior. If you killed her that doesn’t mean all players will be. We are very casual, not hardcore. And she needs nerf.

Liadri is far from “hardcore” levels of player skill.

Not everybody is meant to be able to kill her.

Keltach.8049:

Also I didn’t know it was parasitic to start a discussion in the discussion forum?

It’s not a discussion on your end, it;s a rant coupled with some seriously bad suggestions.

Keltach.8049:

Also can you link where the devs posted that most trash mobs are meant to be skipped if such a post exists?

Is skipping an exploit? no, read sig link. If it isn’t an exploit and if it isn’t against ToS then everyone is free to do so.

edit: lol thread got sent to the trashcan

Boyd.5438:

CptAurellian.9537:

It’s not the dungeons that need to be fixed, but rather the lacking capacity to think displayed by all the stacking/skipping/berserker/whatever whiners.

tell me,

if you dont stay within range for might blast, will you get it?

if a mob hits for 10k per hit with 3.5 million estimated HP, will you run out of the blindfield and attack him till it dies without any active defence skills?

if you play a necro, will you stand out of the feedback bubble and take the damage?

those are stacking isnt it? regardless if zerker or not.

Friendly fire!

might want to read his statement again.

Keltach.8049:

-snip-

Make your own group, problem solved.

clone thread#5168411350065103

Groonz.7825:

. At the moment placing buy orders is around 15g+8g. That’s 23g for the ticket to buy a skin (not counting additional gold for the different skin).

Once again newer players get the short stick.

23g is a problem? really? wow….

new players can easily get 1 skin, you’re really just being greedy.

cranked.3812:

Wasbunny.6531:

For those of us that actually play GW2 and have constructive ideas relating to the topic please post these. This is a great place to brainstorm ideas which could improve the game for all of us.

For those who do not play the game and therefore have no constructive input, well I would respectfully ask that you find something else to do.

Translation:

If you agree with my point of view, feel free to post. Otherwise keep quiet, especially if you don’t log in much anymore.

Yeah you;re right I also got off topic.

Basically as to my first post – current “stack everything” is a byproduct of poor mob/boss design and not a problem in itself. Using walls and LoS conceptually is mainly used as counter-play. Stacking is usually used as a burst tactic that makes the group move as 1 unit for breaching or eliminating groups quickly (also covering all sides/windows/etc, but this isnt an FPS) – so no, i don’t believe this is a problem, rather it should be encouraged to use it for certain encounters.

The issue is that the AI scripting has no “reaction” it just follows like lemmings (recall that game if you know it).

I don’t believe that the game should radically shift directions that forces you to take damage in small increments (which is commonly suggested) or other radical anti-stack measures. Rather, I think they should focus on movement and positioning for the AI as well as give them a “play style” of some sort for each class of mobs. They can be predictable individually, but if your melee mobs behave very different from your mage or ranged mobs, then it can alter your strategy significantly.

As for bosses, just look at cofp3 (if you don’t cheese it – simple pathing fix is sufficient for this bug). This is sort of a moderately good example – take your party and see how people stack him. Our strategy was on opening we stack and approach > ele might stack while someone does a KD on his location (not prestack)> then basically full melee until next need for might stack guardian pops aegis>sometimes if u have projectile block/reflect u pop it when he throws bolas. It’s a very active scene of combat which uses stacking, active dodging and lots of support.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

So tanks tank, when they are needed to do so? Sounds like a tank to me.

Good luck poking an eye with those big boxing gloves on.

Reality and games, how about you have to uninstall the game after dying once. GW2 is not touching reality in any context. Be it gameplay, physics, nutrition, or crafting.

RL arguements won’t work, most people play games because they are sort of tired of reality at the very moment.

Fireballs, clones you can blow up, fiery greatswords, lightning whip, giant dragons, leveling, etc = not reality

Paying taxes, work, love, war, family, death, etc. = reality

And I still do not understand why you think your argument makes stacking in a corner any better for the gameplay experience.

Didn’t say stacking in a corner = better gameplay, im countering your arguments because all you know is generic mmorpg and you can’t see beyond the genre and general direction of combat in gw2. Could it have done better? yes ofcourse, but again there are still conceptual constraints and guidelines they have to follow.

Yes all examples of reality you provided, some games probably touches on them. During the development of counterstrike as a mod the idea of “realism” was key to it. So you may not notice it as most people ignore the details of pretty much everything, but major elements of realism are present in a lot of games.

I said real tanks are not encouraged to be used as a bullet shield due to possiblity of anti-armor. How dense can you get? You really only hear yourself.

Completely repeating the game after dying once – it;’s called a rouge-like game. They exist, they sell well. Mainstream example diablo hardcore mode. You must have not played games before 2000, even rogue-likes are coming back nowadays.

Basically you have a very narrow gaming experience and you disagree with it because of this. You dislike it mainly due to preference. You are not a versatile gamer and you didn’t do your research before buying GW2.

Again “but this isnt IRL” is probably the dumbest argument ever thrown, if that’s the case then don’t complain how 5 people can occupy the same area at the same time ignoring the laws of physics.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Bread.7516:

“support” in this game (meta) is not about stats or being a dedicated healer/support, it’s about utility. That’s pretty much the point.

Check action games, check how real combat works whether military team compositions or even just as minor as martial arts. no one “tanks”

How about tanks? You know the real ones that can take a hit.

Have you ever seen a football game?

Martial arts? Nothing is more important to have a good guard.
Or Boxing? Yeah, being tanky is not important at all I guess in the heavier tiers.

But yeah, this is a real life comparsion, which is ridiculous in regards that we are discussing a fantasy game where you can shoot lasers out of a greatsword the size of a tree…

Tanks are mainly mobile artillery, you only use it as a bullet shield if you really need it since they can have anti-armor equipment.

Martial arts, good guard yeah, but without any real power behind it you’re as good as meat. Dedicated tanks in typical mmorpgs do not do any significant damage. FYI boxing is a sport, good luck clinching your enemy when he’s about to stick a finger in your eye and taking it out. All martial artists have speed power and precision which is the main point of it; to neutralize your opponent asap.

“but this is not IRL” is the dumbest argument that is being repeated. Devs made a direction which is action-like, clearly advertised and stated. Action-like games try to touch on reality.

Ex: Monster Hunter franchise – it’s made of fictional monsters yet devs spend so much time relating their evolution and ecology to make sense. They fix hitboxes to be intuitive to how it should affect your player similar to REAL LIFE physics even if you carry a GS 2-3x your size.

This is an action-like game, expect action game mechanics.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Bread.7516:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

- snip -

Funny, real combat medics carry guns and they’re just as effective!
Surgeons stay in camp

That literally made no sense at all. In no context to what I said or on the topic.

Did I say that people who like to play healers should not be allowed to do damage? Or use a weapon?
Or do you want to tell me, that it would be a good idea if you take critical damage, to visit a player that plays a healer in a virtual hospital, so that he can fix you for several hours so that you can play again, but only if you have insurance or mighty amounts of gold?

Or do you want to make comparsions from reality to a fantasy video game with fireballs, dragons and instant healing.

I have no idea…

“support” in this game (meta) is not about stats or being a dedicated healer/support, it’s about utility. That’s pretty much the point. Yet there are classes that have defined roles as “support” using utilities and etc and are still as effective in combat.

Check action games, check how real combat works whether military team compositions or even just as minor as martial arts. no one “tanks”

Kaiyanwan.8521:

- snip -

Funny, real combat medics carry guns and they’re just as effective!
Surgeons stay in camp

We get it, you want WoW or some generic mmorpg reskinned.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

… if we can’t come up with ideas, then how do we expect Anet to come up with ideas?

Hmm, they’re supposed to be the ones good at this, they’re game designers that do it for a living.

To be honest the solution is simple which is improved AI, I won’t get specific since it’s not like i’m being paid for this but a general direction is just to look and analyze the AI of many action games that are known for their encounters.

Why won’t anet do this? Costly to develop. They’re sellouts; after the game is released they will only spend funds on tweaking (and LS – lol, they won’t touch fundamental mechanics) and will not do something this big to AI until it directly relates to their bank balance dipping. I say “big” because I assume they would need to rebalance mobs, or as a start apply it slowly starting with new content, dungeons, etc. The question is basically why invest in something that doesn’t provide as much returns as shoulder pads/gloves/helms?

Another reason may be because many people especially those who only play mmos will not grasp the mechanics of an action game (active defense and offense) no matter how easy it is and this would cut their profits.

Also anet seems to wholeheartedly hate the dungeon community which craves for smarter and engaging encounters. They don’t even tell us in the patch notes what has changed physically.

Brilliant. I don’t know why but seeing cleave range and especially thunderclap at max range makes me giggle.

Sadly a lot of people like shiny “i want to stand out in a crude manner” type fashion.

imo we need more class and less “my 50lbs shoulder pads are burning/glittering”

juno.1840:

Using lame RL “entitlement” arguments just shows your lack of understanding of the situation….I’m not stating that everyone deserves or is entitled to a precursor. What I’m stating is the entitlement is not unexpected as Players are also Customers and they purchased a game which contains such items.

I understand the situation very well and how it developed, but understanding it does not mean I have to be nice about it nor do I have to be empathetic. It was a jab at the situation which is not uncommon, and the analogy fits since GW2 has a capitalist-like economy by design. Some people don’t like it – oh well.

I will act empathetic if it is to my benefit, otherwise I do with it as I please.

So people are now complaining to anet why they cant afford a luxury item.

Why not complain to your government why you can’t afford to buy a helicopter?

Dalanor.5387:

frifox.5283:

By that definition, in the following video I’m enjoying the living kitten out of this game:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me1VrGgB2wA

XD

Obviously a hacker, report him!

hax!, the axe isn’t even physically touching alpha

/report range hack

SkylightMoon.1980:

Bread.7516:

VideoGamermike.5813:

gear and builds are great for time, not in terms of life, risk, or stress.

Dude you don’t get it, to many of us playing games is about pushing ourselves to the limit and push some more. A game with no risk/stress is a game not worth playing to many of us.

You may have a different view which is fine, but if you’ve been lurking around the dungeon sub-forum a lot of these people are long time players that discuss optimal strategies to find the most efficient method in terms of time completion.

Branding us as hypocrites, you may want to take a look at yourself.

“A game with no risk/stress is a game not worth playing to many of us.”
Bro, thats literally what Gw2 Pve is. Go play darksouls or do raiding in other games.

I did, demon souls, dark souls, DS 2, just finished DS2 on NG+3. I play a very wide variety of games.
I’m not pugging anyway, why should you care? I only play with friends – exclusively

VideoGamermike.5813:

gear and builds are great for time, not in terms of life, risk, or stress.

Dude you don’t get it, to many of us playing games is about pushing ourselves to the limit and push some more. A game with no risk/stress is a game not worth playing to many of us.

You may have a different view which is fine, but if you’ve been lurking around the dungeon sub-forum a lot of these people are long time players that discuss optimal strategies to find the most efficient method in terms of time completion.

Branding us as hypocrites, you may want to take a look at yourself.

frifox.5283:

VideoGamermike.5813:

by what standard do you define somethings worth.

The combination of Time and Effort. The less the better.

^ This
Also just to add, if an amateur gets in an F1 vehicle – he’s probably going to crash and burn. So what we’re looking at is potential.

VideoGamermike.5813:

You wanna play a beserker, go for it, I’ll enjoy watching you get ripped apart as a squishy target by WvW videos, and doing it myself once I have time to join in.

We’re smart enough to know, or search for general guidelines for meta builds in WvW

VideoGamermike.5813:

- snip -

ef·fi·cient
adjective
(especially of a system or machine) achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.
“fluorescent lamps are efficient at converting electricity into light”

(of a person) working in a well-organized and competent way.
“an efficient administrator”

suffix: -efficient
“an energy-efficient heating system”

If you have 2 employees and 1 gets the job done faster than the other with theoretically the same quality, he is more suited/efficient for the job.

You choose to play as GS, no one should really care if you enjoy it. Go ahead and do it and find people that share that common interest with you. Just a warning that if you get kicked from groups before the run has started do not complain when this happens.

When yoeu enter the forum especially being new, they may hold values different from yours and just like certain groups IRL they form their own sub-culture, if you come into this culture not understanding it and just flailing about it will result in what you just experienced.

Basically your way of communicating was ineffective. You used the forum as a rant, that’s ok too, but expect people to reply to it in ways you do not find to your liking. This is the internet, this is to be expected. “Don’t give advice when no one is asking for it” only applies to people who mind their own business – not to people who rant. So did you come here to seek advice and what people think, or just what you wanted to hear(read)? Because this certainly is not a support group.

Nerelith.7360:

…..
I do admit I Missed that Video, but it still does back up My point. They say any class can fill any role, support, control…damage. but all you need is to bring on the damage

If anyone tries to say " hey, maybe Mob AI should be changed so that conditions make sense, so that wearing more toughness or vitality makes sense, so that having more Into healing makes sense. Having More Points Put into tanking skills makes sense." The damage crowd all scream bloody murder about " NOOO that way lies the Holy Trinity!!!!"

Is it so bad to ask for MORE challenging combat that requires More than " dodge…. dodge…dodge….full damage gear… damage Skills." ?

I came to gw2 expecting more. based On what they promised. As I said, we have all these wonderful tools… would be Nice if using them were not Just " ooh look cool skills to use cause I feel like it." and More Like" Ok, let me switch to a support build…. this is needed in this encounter…and appreciated by my teammates."

It seems that all that is needed is damage, and all that is appreciated is… damage.
…..

I’m looking at it at a perspective of what GW2 is right now and not what it can be since I do play other games.

Full DPS teams bring active control and support via utility. Support doesn’t exclusively mean stats.

Full DPS teams are meta and should only be used for people who know exactly what to do and when, they’re for really fast runs. You can see for yourself that many PUG parties have failed trying to replicate this on the fly. So in the sense of casual runs with casual players a little support stats and traits is appreciated, but when playing with optimized parties it should be apparent that you’re leaning towards the meta (which is unavoidable).

From the “what it can be” perspective.

Mob AI change, a lot of people wanted this (me included), but some people’s idea of how it can be changed and mine would be completely different. So it’s all about pleasing which crowd, also there is the crowd that just finds it fine – so which crowd gives them more money?

Challenge can mean very different things depending on genre, saying that all dodge and damage is not challenging is a fallacy since if you look at other games like dark souls – it is regarded as challenging and a success; GW2 makes dodging easier because of a huge 0.75 seconds of invulnerability. But of course GW2 will not be like that game since it caters to a wider audience. So it brings back the question – which side spends more money.

Also I assume they don’t use hitboxes/collision meshes so it is incapable of having more flexibility when it comes to intuitive dodging of swings, rather they use something similar to an RTS.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Bread.7516:

Meta teams use support, control, and damage. If you think support and control is exclusively from stats, then that’s real funny….

Defiance /15chars.

aww how cute
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control
read please

Nerelith.7360:

I was here at release. I remember how Gw2 advertised itself. I saw the videos On youtube.

Then you missed/misunderstood this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSIna5oeNlQ#t=9

Nerelith.7360:

We were told there would be 3 game mechanics… Control, Support, and Damage. We have the tools for all three, but we only have a need for one.

Meta teams use support, control, and damage. If you think support and control is exclusively from stats, then that’s real funny. The reason why they perform so well in full damage stats is mainly because they know how to use support and control at the right moment.

All games have a meta, what game doesn’t? You can chop your tree with your hammer if you want, but that doesn’t mean other people are obligated to join you.

This is an action game and being that it touches a little of reality. So I ask the question again, when a fist is heading towards your face why would someone want to take that hit like an idiot? Who get’s into a fight not wanting to subdue his opponent? Even combat medics carry guns.

Nerelith.7360:

A week to hit level 80, is not good game design.

No, that’s what YOU think. GW1 was only level 20 and you hit it very early – it was arguably “good design”. Many games don’t even have leveling up.

Max Lexandre.6279:

I really really wish Zerk build to be nerfed, such build really deserves it on PvE.

It’s not fair that it seems there’s only 1 possible build on this game that is acceptable, that is Zerkers.

I and certainly many others on this situation, want to play dungeons with our own builds, without be constantly kicked, insulted and other things because there is too much elitism about this.

For the sake our community health, end this “zerker build master-race”, even Guardians are Zerkers now! Dear lord!

Majority of LFG is not gear specific.

It’s so easy to deal with your problem that a child can figure it out. Don’t expect other people or the system to fix your problem.

Has anyone of you “pls nerf zerk i want to be dedicated tank/heal” people ever played an action game?

FYI you dont really win a fight by being a sand bag.

Just because gw2 is an mmo (which isn’t a genre by itself) doesn’t mean the mechanics will be your reskinned [insert typical spank and tank rpg game]. Gw2 is (and andvertised as such) mainly an action game mmo hybrid with other elements.

Trash mobs are really bad because of terrible AI and scripting.

Bosses are slightly interesting because of moderately better AI (sometimes) and better skill sets.

The replay value of dungeons is mainly the bosses, no one cares for badly scripted minor mobs. Seriously, the scripting of these mobs are just atrocious and shouldn’t even be used in today’s gaming industry for AAA games.

Same reason why they didn’t release the real super mario brothers 2 outside japan until recently

JJBigs.8456:

Bread.7516:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Arise, my brainless, arise!

i just had to…you made me log in for this!!!

Not a mass skeleton , revive, tap 1 swamp to regenerate this enemy if killed deck!

oh noes skel revive decks too stronk, OP OP OP /ragequit /wrist

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Arise, my brainless, arise!

i just had to…you made me log in for this!!!

edited image for context accuracy – and it’s a totally legit card!

Brother Grimm.5176:

Beyond the fact that you need to have an actual valid game account to view the forums (by design) this is an issue with your browser’s security settings. I use Chrome and tell it to remember my log in (but still have to log in occasionally….but not every time).

I dont think you need to have a valid game account to view the forums since i can view it fine on other networks with a mobile device. Also, i never keep passwords on my browser. Maybe by design it is just an inconvenience for people with a valid account.

So apparently this is an actual design by anet and not really a browser setting.
I’m going to keep using incognito mode to browse with out logging in 90% of the time.

Let them enjoy the game as they like, it’s not like they were rude or anything.

It’s better this way, they know the type of people they want to play with.

Start praying to RNGesus so you may be blessed.

Here’s an idea for dungeon bosses or mobs
AI scripting using states (and transition between them) so it wont just be an obvious playlist of skills + spamfest.

MHCerberus.1385:

This has probably been posted and discussed to it’s bitter end, but I haven’t read it! I love running dungeons.

Yes it has been posted by you, it has been discussed in your thread, and you have read it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Skipping-in-Dungeons

^ Your thread about a year ago.

MHCerberus.1385:

This would not be such a hot topic for me if players did not get personally offended by me wanting to actually play the game and kill a few enemies. Is there any solution for this?

Obvious solution – make your own groups, filter people. I bet you already knew that.

Star Ace.5207:

Bread.7516:

beGreen.4190:

Also asking me why dont I run support build with zerker is stupid. It doesn’t feel right, it’s clearly not what creator of the game intended and you guys know it

See my sig since apparently your assumption is better than a dungeon dev’s words.
or just this link http://i.imgur.com/g1rkIub.jpg

Sorry if gw2 isn’t your re-skinned [insert favorite typical spank and tank mmorpg here]

It is interesting that, as often as you quote that developer’s quote, he himself said in that SAME post that the other gear/builds have a place in the game. By the same token, if you agree with the dogma (and inappropriate generalization, if you are honest with yourself) that people that don’t use Berserker’s are “unskilled”, many of these developers “suck” at GW2 and are playing it “wrong.”

In short, he did not say that Berserker’s was the “intended” way to play GW2, but rather that it’s a valid way to play it, especially the more you know the content. His own approach to the game, why it may not be Berserker’s, is also as valid.

Not a dig at Berserker’s gear, but you have to place Mr. Hrouda’s words in the proper context. Also I don’t think the OP was saying that non-“zerk” groups should be as fast or as efficient. IMHO, Berserker’s should still remain a valid playstyle, but the other options at least made more attractive, if not essential (right now, direct damage has become “the essential role” so to speak, and the Professions who lack specific key support abilities lag behind and have it hard to make up with that with something else.)

It is in proper context about who is carrying their own weight. Very experienced players + ability to time dodges properly can run zerkers in dungeons, it has been accounted for and is an intended playstyle. Sometimes you don;t have to read between the lines because there isnt anything there.

In pve, non-zerk has a place in the game, just not with people who speed run.
People can wear whatever they want but we can also dictate how we form our own parties.

tl;dr general statement – Everyone is not obligated to play with anyone; make your own party/l2makefriends. There will always be a meta. Realize it’s an action-mmo. LFG is filled with non-zerk required parties. OP clearly just wants a reskinned WoW.

SkylightMoon.1980:

At least there was build diversity and allowed the devs to make interesting bosses because of the existence of roles.

One doesn’t need to have trinity/roles to make interesting boss fights.

Anet needs to make interesting boss fights to make interesting boss fights.

beGreen.4190:

Also asking me why dont I run support build with zerker is stupid. It doesn’t feel right, it’s clearly not what creator of the game intended and you guys know it

See my sig since apparently your assumption is better than a dungeon dev’s words.
or just this link http://i.imgur.com/g1rkIub.jpg

Sorry if gw2 isn’t your re-skinned [insert favorite typical spank and tank mmorpg here]

why do people like getting hit?

haviz.1340:

Remove stats from gear, all stats should come from traits and passive signets. There you go, no more complains about zerkers.

i like this, armor should just be plain armor.

Why does the forum force me to login before i can view anything? – it redirects me to the login page every time i visit.

Alternatively i just use my browser’s incognito mode to avoid the annoying redirection.

zorabro.4893:

its just not fun at all -_-

then stop playing

Nage.1520:

A game can either be small and relatively bug free (and even in Rifts case it was still missing features and had a horrible security bug) or it can be large and ambitious but it will need to be built while people play.

I don’t believe there’s a middle ground.

As i said, mmo is not a genre there is only the scale of a project. Just because your peers are garbage doesn’t mean you also have to be garbage.

Industry disruptor – across many industries they keep popping up, because apparently they keep proving people who believe “there is no middle ground” wrong.

People are mainly arguing a decline of standards from gw1 to gw2. Gw1 wasn’t fully featured or bug-free during release, but it was done right.

also, all your examples? all recent games – and again i have to repeat games these days are released “unfinished” except for a few.

Nage.1520:

Real life doesn’t work this way. I’m guessing 9 out of every 10 MMOs launched too early. That’s because projects tend to run over both budget and time. That means that eventually you run out of money. You have to launch to recap some of the years you’ve spent paying people to work.

There really are no easy answered here.

Real life is that some companies are able to pull off a project on a larger scale, and some can’t. There is no easy answer of course but when starting a project, one thing you never want to do is biting more than what you can chew.

Anet made a brand that is Guild Wars; it set a standard to that brand. It made another product promising it to be on a larger scale. For the sake of argument let’s say this product failed (that’s how the people who negatively see it believe). From the consumer’s perspective do you think they care if a company made ends meet or do they care more about what product they have on their hands? This is to give you an understanding of what people think when they express disappointment in the game.

Whether it was a good business decision or not is a different story and it is mainly about profit, potential gains and sustainability.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Polish takes a back seat to functionality. I see this every day in my own job. We have more than 50 items in our ‘backlog’ that are just ‘polish’ type stuff – adjust a color, adjust a scale, etc etc. Whats more important is that a tool functions as it is intended to function, so people can use it.

I agree functional requirements do take precedence, but doesn’t mean that the product is ready to be released.

Basically im just arguing standards and their decline in recent times.

anyway i edited previous post.