Guild Wars 2

D/P permasteslth doesn’t need a nerf at all, it’s not even hard to counter and a Thief in stealth isn’t doing anything. People who complain about D/P permastealth in WvW just can’t get over the fact that they might just have to walk away.

I don’t have a high rating, but I don’t have any problems playing PvP on any of my characters, including my Thief. The latency is barely noticeable.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i have reported it for months. they don’t seem to care. some of us don’t need to scrub it up with perma stealth builds. sorry if that angers you.

Now permastealth thieves can attack while maintaining stealth? I’ve gotta learn how to do this! Can you post a training video? Preferably on all five of your thief alts.

I feel like we should be adding /sarcasm tags, it seems to be going straight over his head, lol.

Sanduskel.1850:

i have reported it for months. they don’t seem to care. some of us don’t need to scrub it up with perma stealth builds. sorry if that angers you.

1. Read this, it applies directly to you: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
2. It’s weird that they haven’t done anything about it yet, you have so much evidence and a really detailed explanation for it as posted above, maybe they’re just really busy? :/

Caramel Ham.4891:

I would go with a mix of Valkyrie and berserker for pve (if you are having trouble surviving) for the fact that as a Thief, the amount of dmg you do as a DD Thief, already makes you an agro magnet. Adding Knights into the mix, which has toughness in it, further exacerbates the problem.

I assume you haven’t read the topic, lol. :P

Sanduskel.1850:

Incurafy.6329:

Sarrs.4831:

Lafiel.9372:

To be fair, I think damage should reveal stealth though or at least show faint trails of it.

IMO stealth just needs counters.

I kinda wonder why a few things aren’t part of the Boon/Condition system; Stealth, Revealed and Quickness are some of them. Being able to directly remove or flip Stealth with things like Well of Corruption, Acidic Elixirs, Null Field might work.

I am so sick of hearing that stealth needs counters, IT ALREADY HAS COUNTERS. If it didn’t have counters then no one would be able to counter it, but surprise surprise, a huge amount of players can!

Also, LOL @ Sanduskal posting his usual kitten about how stealth is a scrub crutch (only scrubs don’t use every mechanic to their advantage), and now spreading lies that you canaattack while stealthed and remain in stealth without any explanation or evidence.

I guess you rely on perma stealth. It’s ok, some people have to rely on that.

Oh wow dude, you’re right, the detailed evidence-based method to remain in stealth while attacking that you just explained definitely sounds like an exploit! You should report that to Anet ASAP so that they can fix it! Make sure to show them your evidence when you do!

Sarrs.4831:

Lafiel.9372:

To be fair, I think damage should reveal stealth though or at least show faint trails of it.

IMO stealth just needs counters.

I kinda wonder why a few things aren’t part of the Boon/Condition system; Stealth, Revealed and Quickness are some of them. Being able to directly remove or flip Stealth with things like Well of Corruption, Acidic Elixirs, Null Field might work.

I am so sick of hearing that stealth needs counters, IT ALREADY HAS COUNTERS. If it didn’t have counters then no one would be able to counter it, but surprise surprise, a huge amount of players can!

Also, LOL @ Sanduskal posting his usual kitten about how stealth is a scrub crutch (only scrubs don’t use every mechanic to their advantage), and now spreading lies that you canaattack while stealthed and remain in stealth without any explanation or evidence.

What exactly is the point of the change? Heartseeker and Backstab are two skills that don’t even need s change, and yet you’re promoting change, why?

I really don’t think it’s a good idea to make so many topics. We can discuss the state of the Thief profession just fine in your first topic.

As for your suggestion for HS, it would completely destroy HS and make it absolutely terrible. Why would you possibly want to nerf it so kittening hard?!

Just read the Backstab suggestion and now I can see why you suggested this, but it’s still absolutely terrible.

Hidden Killer is a trait primarily designed for Backstab (pretty obvious), and having all hits of Sneak Attack crit wouldn’t really do much for your damage since P/D is a condition build and P/P has no stealth access.

Nilgoow.1037:

You misspelled Lyssa.

They have a 50 second ICD so Quick Venoms wouldn’t affect them.

OP: They’re not available in PvP, are they?

Bastien.1645:

Okay seems good, I like your logic.

I’ll take 3 Soldier Pieces + all berserkers into WvWvW and in PvE but once I’m more comfortable in Dungeons I can buy the chest/helm/legs berserker slots but still use the soldiers in wvwvw ?

That’s pretty much it, in WvW you’ll want Soldiers + Berserkers, while in PvE you basically just want straight out Berserkers. You can swap the pieces whenever you like, so when you’re comfortable with you’re ability to dodge (go 25/30/0/15/0, or something like that) in PvE then you can go full Berserker in PvE and still use the Soldiers pieces in WvW.

I hope that we’ve helped, it’s obviously very confusing, especially when the general consensus that Valk is better than Soldiers is still engrained so heavily in most people’s minds (I myself had that for a long time before seeing Wish’s threads).

I would just like to quickly comment that the “bundle” portion of Improvisation is actually a left-over from Alpha/Beta where stealing would actually give your character a bundle with a new set of 5 skills, similar to the Elementalist summoned weapons. It is no longer applicable and hasn’t been since launch, and should be removed all together in favour of something else.

Also, I’d just like to add that I agree with Evilapprentice on the RNG aspect of Improvisation. Steal originally acted as an RNG mechanic with multiple different bundles available on stealing from another profession or enemy in PvE, but this was changed for launch to the current system to allow us to know what we would get and use that strategically. Some players may like RNG, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but the general consensus has always been that reliability is preferable to RNG.

A question for you, PopeUrban: wouldn’t you prefer if you were still able to use Improvisation for the double-utilities that you use with your build, but do so in a completely reliable way?

Good discussion so far guys, I really do hope that this thread continues to be a productive place for discussion.

Big Tower.5423:

what about the dear wvwvw?

Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoy roaming in WvW, but it’s not even remotely balanced in any way, shape, or form. Where D/D is strong and viable in WvW, it’s practically useless in PvP.

If we’re going to talk about the meta builds of any profession, we should be talking about the actual PvP of the game where everyone is equal in terms of equipment and amount of trait points, not the unbalanced mess that is WvW.

In my opinion D/P and S/D are tied at the moment, both see heavy use and suit in many situations. I personally use a build with D/P + S/D to gain the benefits of both weapon sets.

S/P is great, really, but it hasn’t seen mainstream use just yet. It is only going to get more popular in the future, especially if it receives another buff of some kind, though I think that is unlikely to happen.

I really don’t understand why a post telling everyone to calm the kitten down and stop abusing Anet makes you want to leave, but ok… can I have all of your stuff? Name is on the left, just mail me your gold and anything else you can liquidate, thanks.

I’m not great at explaining it, but if you’re going for a balanced build then Zerker + Soldiers offers more offence and defence than Zerker + Valkyrie. Wish explains it in the thread above much better than I can.

Of course, if you’re going to be doing a lot of PvE then 100% Zerker is the best for it once Youre comfortable with your skill level.

Lol, nice video, thanks for sharing. This one is also really old, but I think it’s probably the best anti-Thief video out there:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

It was made back when people didn’t know how to play Ele’s so they were thought of as being too weak, just for those of you who aren’t sure why he’s calling Ele’s UP. It’s also good to note that if you pay attention, he was using CnD > Mug > Backstab to set up for low-HP HS spamming.

Don’t use Valkyrie, mix Soldier and Berserker instead. Here’s a link to the math behind Soldier being better than Valkyrie:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Post-Your-Build-Thread/page/3#post2426220

Oh, I didn’t see the 3 initiative limit, so that’s better, but I can still see potential for abuse with might on stealth and initiative regeneration through 25 points in SA and #5.

I have no idea what people do in PvE, but if you’re going to play PvP you’re mostly suited to a far point assaulter and roamer, while in WvW you’re most suited to roaming and killing solo players/small groups depending on your skill level, killing dolyaks and guard points, and capping supply camps.

Err… what wish said. Thanks.

Seras.5702:

It would apply to mainhand (1-2) and offhand (4-5). Skill #3 is a dual-wield skill so it wouldn’t apply. Even if you’re running P/P.

As to whether you should use it……

Unload does work with it, it was a popular build in beta before the nerf to Ankle Shots that added the ICD. I don’t know why you think it doesn’t.

You shouldn’t use Valkyrie, Ghost, you should use more Zerker + Soldier pieces. Look for Wish’s “building a better D/D Thief” thread for all of his math and stuff which shows why Zerker + Soldier is optimal.

Those traits are viable, but mix Zerker and Soldiers, avoid Valkyrie. Also, I’d seriously consider D/P secondary.

You unlock weapon set skills by using them, so if you have D/D equipped, for example, each time you kill an enemy you gain a small amount of progress towards unlocking the next skill in the set.

As for your questions regarding stats, I know that most of them have already been answered, but if you want the fastest and most efficient stats for leveling then get as many stats that boost condition damage/toughness/vitality as you can and spam Death Blossom (D/D #3) on your enemies.

Make sure that you unlock Signet of Malice (heal), Caltrops (utility), and Roll for Initiative (utility) as soon as you possibly can, this will allow you to bleed your opponents to death in an AoE while gaining health back for every single hit that you do with your daggers (imagine DB dealing 3 hits on each of 6 opponents, healing for a small amount each time, that’s a LOT of healing), as well as for every second that each enemy is standing on your Caltrops field.

Trait wise, you want to put 15 intro Trickery straight away, followed by 10 in Deadly Arts for Mug, another 5 into Trickery for Trickster (grab the caltrops on dodge trait), 15 into Acrobatics for extra dodging (grab the might on dodge trait at 10), then whatever you think has synergy with your build at that point (I go for 15 more in Acro for Quick Pockets and Quick Recovery, followed by 10 more in Trickery for Daze on steal).

The reason to do all of this is that each and every one of the traits that you gain will benefit your DB spam and switching to Shortbow off-hand when you’re out of initiative.

You should also get Infiltrator’s Signet for the extra initiative regeneration and Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild for taking out large groups/big targets (like champions, which you can solo with this build).

Last of all, have fun! The Thief class is by far one of the most enjoyable, so don’t rush!

Old topic, but since we’re all commenting…

Both of these skills would incredibly OP, you could use 5 > 4 > 5 until you had 25 stacks of might, switch to D/D, then burst them down with the old CnD > Mug > BS combo with 25 stacks of might.

I think that they sound cool as a concept, but in reality, they’re just far too powerful. I do however agree that we should get an off-hand Sword and I really do hope that it becomes a reality in the future.

Brilliantly argued, feliscatus, truly you’re a wordsmith seldom seen in the 21st century!

Lmao @ the replies, how stupid of me to think that we could have a proper discussion about the subject without it Instantly turning into “stealth is op”. Thank you tk the two people who gave serious replies, and screw you to the rest of you.

Forget it, mods, you can close this topic, I’m not even going to try when I get called a troll for trying to start a healthy discussion.

Serious question.

Now, before you start giving me all of this crap about how it would be OP for whatever reason, think about it for just a moment…

If a player is stealthed on the point, the following happens:

1. The point starts ticking down and displays this on the mini-map.
2. A player who goes there to stop them will be able to damage them as soon as they get there by throwing down AoE’s/cleaves/etc.
3. When the player arrives to counter the cap, the point will stop ticking away from that teams favour.

The only time when this could be a bad thing is when there’s a neutral point and you can’t see it being capped unless you see the colour changing or it’s capped, but when does a team ever leave a point neutralised?

If this were changed it would actually make stealth-based Thieves viable, and possibly make D/D burst builds viable again.

Thoughts?

NOTE: Please don’t turn this into a massive Thief QQ train topic, there’s nothing OP about stealth and regardless of what certain people shout all day, you can counter a stealthed Thief.

It’ll work, but your attacks will deal less direct damage due to the lack of power that the Carrion alternative will give you. I think that you’re actually better off with Carrion (you should have 30 in SA anyway), but that’s just me. You could try 100% Carrion trinkets with Dire armour, or mix and match them to min-max between Power, Vitality, Toughness, and Condition Damage.

No, Leeching Venoms applies very specifically to “venom” type utilities. If you take a look at your utilities, you will see that they have a type prefix. For example, Shadow Step is a deception type utility, where as your signets are (obviously) signet types.

So, whenever you see a trait that mentions a type, it means that type very specifically, and nothing else. The poison you apply with Lotus Strike is just a condition named poison and has nothing to do with the venom type utilities.

Hope I helped!

Would that have been so hard for you to do, Stooperdale? If you’re not going to be helpful, don’t even bother posting on a thread asking for help. You might try to argue that this question has been answered before and the OP could have done a search, but it’s an incredibly rare question so finding an answer would be a lot harder than finding an answer to “how to stealth” or something like that. ;\

Sanduskel.1850:

thiefs haven’t really been nerfed very hard at all compared to other classes. secondly, the next patch change won’t really hurt stealth at all.

I LOL’d.

Charr Ash Legion story is great for Thieves, but the Charr look crap as Thieves, imo. I have a male Sylvari but u regret not making a human simply because without access to the human cultural armours to mix abd match, Thieves look so lame.

I disagree, Knote, SB is a perfect off-hand but nothing beats DB spam when combined with SoM and caltrops + dodgetrops. Sb is best swapped to when you have no initiative or want to kite.

You can only have one of any type of Sigil equipped.

Everything you just said describes the Thief perfectly. Roll one, you won’t regret it.

That’s intended, Dee Jay, and it’s not weird at all, it makes perfect sense. Since damage triggers revealed, having your attack evaded/reflected/blocked doesn’t count. Simple.

Fair enough then, if you ever can record a video, be sure to post it!

What do you think of my other suggestions?

Sanduskel.1850:

real thieves don’t need permastealth. i manage to do fine without that scrub crutch.

There are no such thing as “real Thieves” and stealth is not a “scrub crutch”.

Wether you like it or not, stealth is just as much a viable playstyle as evasion. Stop going around preaching this stupid crap about how evasive Thieves are better just because you play one.

Obscure One.4357:

Oh no this got moved to the thief forum…that’ll really encourage a rational discussion on stealth mechanics…
Heads up thieves we already have:
- “your bad, learn to play”
- “thief is easy to counter.”
- “stealth isn’t broken”

And a few other equally shortsighted arguments you folks are apt to making. But I suppose you can’t tell a troll not to troll any more than you can tell an idiot not to be an idiot…

I know this sounds absolutely crazy, and everyone is probably going to shoot me for even thinking about it, but perhaps the reason that we tell you to L2P is that thousands of players don’t have a problem with stealth or Thieves, and being Thief players, we know how to counter our own class?

If you want real advice on how to counter stealth or a particular Thief mechanic then ask politely without complaining and you’ll get it.

Black Teagan.9215:

inb4: “Thief is OP”

btw. where is Burnfall?

Over in the 10 month old “omg a feef kill me in 4 sec i culdnt react!!1 :’( Q.Q” thread, lol.

No, Thieves don’t ignore armour, and it’s impossible to give you a proper explanation without screenshots and knowledge of what actually happened. If it happens again, screenshot everything (or record it) and then post it in the Thief forum asking politely for an explanation and you’ll get one without people just QQing.

Oh, and ignore Burnfall, he’s notorious for being either a 10 year old with a decent vocabulary who lacks the grammatical ability to use it properly, or a troll who started out as being funny but has since lost his touch by spamming the same crap over and over again.

Quakeman.9378:

FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE, this was not intended to be a freaking QQ thread, and it’s starting to kitten me off that it’s impossible to post anything on these forums without getting flamed. I know very well that I’m far from pro, and I don’t need you nimrods to remind of that fact. To those of you who actually answered/added onto this discussion in a non-condescending kittenish way I thank and salute you.

As someone who has had a great time reading this thread and laughing at the false claims by those QQing, a salute to you for simply asking questions and not QQing.

In future, I suggest that you post this in the Thief forum itself. You will be surprised at the amount of supportive posts you will get explaining and giving you advice if you post to ask a question and not to QQ. Posting it in any other class forum is a mistake because most of the answers are “because Thief is OP”, as seen here.

If you were in PvE or WvW then I’m not sure what you were doing wrong. You can hit CnD and then Backstsb the instant it becomes available and it won’t be any different, in fact, that’s how you get high DPS.

Keep in mind that the range that counts as the back if a target is quite large and encompasses some of their side as well.

I have to admit that I like your build, I had my doubts, but it’s just so unique that it’s hard to dislike it, lol.

Suggestions:

1. Change the healing bonus sigils to bloodlust or might on weapon swap. Also, take might on dodge instead if Descent.
2. Change some of the runes to might duration runes instead.
3. Change one of the sets to D/D for the burst combo.

What this should do is raise the amount of might you can keep up and increase your power overall, allowing you to potentially do a lot more damage.

Could you record a short video of this in action? I’m really interested to see how well it works.

Since you appear to be completely focussed on damage with a little bit of team support from Steal, I would drop 10 points from DA and grab Hidden Killer, then add 5 points to Trickery and grab Bountiful Theft.

Gear wise, go 100% Zerker gear, you’re losing damage by adding precision over power. Next, drop the ruby orbs for Ogre or Scholar if you can afford them, if not, stick to ruby orbs until you can.

Link is broken for me, won’t load. Try creating it on ItM again and pasting the new link, or using gw2buildcraft.com instead.

I’m curious about your build, I don’t know how you could create a D/D bunker Thief with high damage unless you were just going x/30/30/x/x which is already extremely popular.

It’s perfectly viable, but you will have trouble with D/P Thieves because they’re practically a hard counter to it.

Yup, the AA chain on Dagger takes almost exactly 3 seconds to complete, and revealed is 3 seconds in PvE/WvW.

The same can be done with 2 shots of a Pistol AA (with a very short addition on the end to make it 3 seconds) and about 3/4 of a Sword AA chain. You’re better of just letting the Sword AA finish for the big hit a the end (Crippling Strike, gives cripple + weakness as well), but you can cut it short if you really need to.

Straegen.2938:

Shenanigans! Black powder hitting for 1.5k?!? math:

• (84 * .25 * Power) * modifiers / Toughness

lets go crazy here:

• (84 * .25 * 4000) * 4 / 2000 = 168

As for 20k BS… again the math proves it is virtually impossible (a thief with 4k power and 4 on the modifier is buffed to the gods with a perfect strike):

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 2000 = 15.5k

against 3k toughness

• ((806 * 2.4 * 4000) * 4.00) / 3000 = 10.3k

In these cases, IMO the combat log is flat out lying and likely clumping several hits from multiple sources into one, some chopping has been done or a bug/cheat is in effect. It is also somewhat curious that a medium health pooled player soaked up 36k damage in about 2 seconds and didn’t die.

ARE YOU MAD?! DON’T YOU KNOW THAT INTRODUCING EVIDENCE AND MATH TO THE QQ-TRAIN WILL DERAIL IT?!

How dare you attempt to shatter the frail QQ-TRAIN with hard evidence!