Guild Wars 2

SlyFoxSays.5342:

Scouting the desolation in GW1 clearly shows the ruins of previous civilizations. Given that the desolation was created when Abaddon was cast out, and this is the region in which Joko hails/rules froms, I am willing to bet that the creation of Joko as a sort lich king and the creation of the desolation are interconnected. Though there were also the ruins of some Shattered Dynasty “kingdoms” such as the Remains of Sahlahja, as well as ruins from when Turai Ossa went on his pilgrimage into the Crystal Desert, such as Lannur.

Perhaps Joko ruled over a kingdom that was destroyed during the fighting between the gods and he was imbued with some sort of godly magic side-effect. Purely speculation of course, but given that Vizier Khilbron was turned into a lich under similar circumstances, it seems possible.

Those ruins were built by the Primeval Kings (some by the Forgotten though), who’s reign went as far north as the Tomb of the Primeval Kings.

Currently nothing links Joko to the Primeval Kings, especially since Joko is said to have been an “up and coming prince” when Oswald Thorn was alive 500 years prior to GW2. Meaning that, most likely, the time in which Joko appeared as a lich is shortly after his life as a mortal.

The only (known) civilization around in the Crystal Sea area prior to the Exodus were the Margonites and the Forgotten – the latter were not humans, the former did not build those ruins as they were a sea-faring people.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

There is some, obscure, evidence that points towards some activity by Abaddon or his agents around 450 AE.

Are you referring to the Scarab Plague? Because 1) nothing really hints at Abaddon’s influence there and 2) that’s the only thing of note around that timeframe.

Arachnia Plateau was a server name during the BWEs that, indeed, did not make it to launch – along with other server names.

Simplicity.7208:

That Charr you’re talking about is a spy sent to infiltrate the Durmond Priory by the Order of Whispers. And there are six dragons. Five that we know about, four that have had some noticeable impact on the world. Since you didn’t actually kill Zhaitan at the battle of Fort Trinity, Riel couldn’t have been talking about the EDs. Possible she was talking about his champions or land to be reclaimed or something.

Victory or Death’s party happens after Arah story mode in the personal story. That’s not the Battle of Fort Trinity, where you don’t even see Riel. She was talking about the Elder Dragons.

@OP: Trahearne also makes mention of going through “four more impossible battles” and the personal story journal makes mention of five Elder Dragons. On the flip side, Eir only makes mention of Jormag, Primordus, or Kralkatorrik for “who’s next?”

It seems that while the Priory – and in turn due to spies, the Order of Whispers – and the Inquest know of all six, the Pact either only got informed of five, or they all think the sixth (most likely to be the jungle dragon) is still in hibernation or simply dead.

The reason why I say that it’s the jungle dragon that’s left unknown is because in Timberline Falls, there are quaggan which mention Elder Dragon influence they fled from in the Unending Ocean. There’s also other hand-waved comments of the quaggan and krait heading north due to ED influences, and with quaggan helping the Pact, it seems likely they’d inform the Pact of the deep sea dragon. The jungle dragon, on the other hand, has no known influence in the open world and we cannot even be certain that the Crucible of Eternity’s creatures in Experimental Green Lab (the husks and Nightmare Hounds) are dragon minions. As opposed to the Inquest studying the sylvari’s immunity to the Elder Dragons.

It’s a giant arch that leads into the center of Arah, to the center of the nation of Orr even. There are six of them in total, two can be found in Cursed Shore while one ends behind the Temple of Balthazar. They come together at the place where the Giganticus Lupicus is fought in Arah explorable.

They’re meant to be presented as a “distant lingering threat” – not an imminent and overbearing one like most games have for their antagonists. So I think that bit fits them well. Though ArenaNet didn’t do certain parts of the game’s storytelling right, I think the whole idea of “the Elder Dragons may not be a huge threat right now” I think was done right… except for the fight with Zhaitan.

Though perhaps a little more struggle in the personal story during the invasion of Orr would have been good… and fewer NPCs dying with more chances of old NPCs you’ve met returning (as opposed to old NPCs that you might have met returning… and dying).

The Elder Dragons are not mindless. While the races of Tyria perceive them to be like forces of nature, this is just because the races don’t know of the Elder Dragons’ true nature – they’re that mysterious, distant, and powerful. ArenaNet tends to explain them in that fashion as well because they want to emphasize this mysteriousness to the Elder Dragons so they explain them in the perspective of the races in most cases.

There is no waiting out the Elder Dragons – they rise, they devour until they can devour no more, and they go into hibernation. There are hints to show that they don’t naturally go into hibernation, but do so when they’re starved and weakened but not defeated (or are defeated but not killed). The only way to wait the Elder Dragons out would be to eliminate or contain all magic in the world and go into hiding so that they cannot be found – just like what the races did during the previous rise since they couldn’t defeat the Elder Dragons due to being solely reliant on magic.

AEFA.9035:

Make sense why Abaddon in Guild Wars 1 look like a spider of some sort. It seems like Abaddon inherited Arachnias form too.

Now I wonder about the other Gods

Per the gw.dat, Abaddon’s body looked like such – insectoid floating head and hands – because his body was destroyed when the Five Gods beat him down in 1 BE. During the course of Nightfall – at each ritual that Varesh performed (Gendara, Sebelkeh (sp?), and Mouth of Torment being the main ones performed), one of the gates in the Realm of Torment (Gate of Fear, Gate of Madness, Gate of Anguish, etc.) that were keeping Abaddon and his power imprisoned unlocked, and thus he was capable of creating a new body. The process was incomplete, hence the form we see. IIRC, the gates opened for him to remake parts of his body were Anguish, Fear, and Pain.

In other words, the reason why he looks like such is because his body is quite literally made out of the Realm of Torment itself.

There’s really only what’s stated in that wiki note you quoted.

“Arachnia” is just a repeated name found from Guild Wars 1’s gw.dat file when Nightfall was released. The name is only shown in two landmark entries – The Spider’s Heart and Arachnia Plateau – thought to be found within the Realm of Torment that speak of a long-dead spider god that is said to predate the Six Gods. There’s a couple other similar landmark entries – Harvestman’s Lair and Vale of Shadows – which make mention of large insectoid carapaces, the former surrounded by spider webbing.

Beyond this, nothing is known. It’s not even known if these descriptions are meant to be canon anymore, since it’s part of the gw.dat and not released content, and the devs refused to comment upon them since it was never-released-content. All we have is the landmark descriptions.

There’s a couple theories about it that I’ve seen, from Arachnia being Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor to these insectoid gods all being predecessors to the Six Gods or that they were a separate group of gods that waged war with the Six Gods and then some others still. But there’s really nothing more about it than those four landmark descriptions.

Edit: Ninja’d when I got distracted.

Tuomir.1830:

My point is that they used power not recognized as magic by the Bloodstone made by seers.

And my point is that that’s not necessarily quite so!

Point back to “magic seems to be a replenishing thing in Tyria” evidence.

Tuomir.1830:

If natural, Tyrian, magic comes from underground (and carried up by water), then wouldn’t it make sense for the asura to be able to use it in a weakened form despite the bloodstone? I never said Abaddon gave magic and that there was none before that – just that the bloodstone drained that magic existing on Tyria like a metamystic sinkhole. And technically, binding rituals aren’t spells. When living beings die, their spirit is drawn to the mists, so using their power would be drawing power from the mists, unaffected by the bloodstone.

My point was that magic existed prior to 1 BE outside of the bloodstone. Asura used it. Ritualists used it. The gods sensed it.

Tuomir.1830:

As for the bloodstones, if it was merely the soul batteries, why would they be located on the bloodstones in the first place? They must have some kind of effect on souls, and that effect was utilized by the mursaat.

I have always seen the bloodstones acting as a conduit for the soul. As if the soul was electricity, the bloodstone a wall plug, and the soul battery the power cord.

It may simply be that the Bloodstones still can absorb magic (or at least the engravings made on those two particular bloodstones), and with what Oola says about beings and souls being used as food by demons…

Parisalchuk.9230:

Interesting that you mention the ebb and flow of the centaur wars… cause during that we defeat the current centaur leader everytime. Whens the last leader of the humans been killed by a centaur? I think humans are doing just fine defending themselves at this point.

http://www.guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

And you’ve got the situation where just killing the king of the Modniir doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve stopped the centaur. The centaurs have their own reasons for attacking. If they weren’t unified by the Modniir, they’d still be causing problems. They just wouldn’t be as organized, they wouldn’t be as effective. So taking out Ulgoth doesn’t eliminate the centaur threat, it just eliminates the organization of that threat, at that level.

Centaurs are still a threat. The war’s pretty much a back and forth, even with the leader’s death they remain a threat.

Parisalchuk.9230:

You mean those centaurs we pushed back, the minister we detained and the dragons that have yet to pose any direct threat to Krytan lands? Right…

The centaurs are still a threat and not all of the corrupt ministers were caught (Caudecus among them).

Shiren.9532:

Can anyone remind me where Canach is?

Rotting in an invisible jail next to Mai.

Probably using one of Evon’s total makeover kits… again.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Under Zhaitan’s influence this may now be the case. We simply do not know at this point.

The Pale Tree also speaks of Tyria as if it is sentient. Just saying.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Evil minions would always see their enemies as committing evil acts. But that does not make it so. You would have to present actual evidence that what we are doing is harming the land. A quote from a dedicated minion of Zhaitan does not make it so.

But can you prove that “dedicated minion of Zhaitan” wrong? That “dedicated minion of Zhaitan” held the most free will that we saw out of any minion thus far (sans some SoS leaders).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But apparently they can become part of the Nightmare Court, so I wouldn’t say they are completely immune to corruption in itself.

There’s a very large difference between “draconic influence” and simply becoming evil.

This is another reason why I think you’re taking the term too literally.

Tuomir.1830:

I disagree with the notion that ritualists were able to use magic before Abaddon gave access to the bloodstone – they could commune with spirits, and do other similar tasks, but that couldn’t have used magic in the form we are talking about, since I doubt the forgotten would have missed such a thing when creating the bloodstone and leave the dragons magic to feast on. Later, ritualists augmented their trade with magic, and eventually became what they were in GW1.

It’s outright stated that the Ritualist profession existed before the gift of magic, and used abilities similar to even “today” (aka Factions’ time). Though the profession changed when “real magic” was introduced, it existed as a magical profession beforehand.

Regardless of how they used magic, they did use it.

Furthermore, the asura also had magic before 1 BE – it was said in an interview somewhere a while back (I think it was between TowerTalk and Ree Soesbee) that the ausra had magic, then felt it spike up in power then drop down lower than before without ever knowing what truly happened.

Given these two facts, I believe that magic isn’t exactly a limited supply (nor is it unlimited – a slow regenerating supply would be best to describe how I believe it to be). As shown through the skill challenges, a lot of deaths creates a concentration of magic. Whether this is due to magic being “attracted” to areas of death, or because such makes magic is unknown. But nonetheless, magic existed in the open world before Abaddon gifted it. Heck, the scriptures of the gods even show this in the fact that the gods themselves used magic. There’s also The Artesian Waters, a source of magic which drew the gods to the world.

There’s a lot that’s telling us “magic existed in the world even between the Bloodstone’s creation and Abaddon gifting it.” It’s just not explicit.

Also: seers, not forgotten, made the original Bloodstone.

Tuomir.1830:

It is also interesting to note the the bloodstone shards seem to have an effect of drawing in souls as well, but only from close proximity.

Erm, no they don’t? If you’re referring to the Prophecies’ effect when near those two bloodstones, that’s due to the soul batteries.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

He got tons of people killed! Yes, he’s evil. Misguided, also, but still evil. Doesn’t matter if his intentions were good in this case, murder is murder.

Were there actually deaths (other than the Consortium sent to kill him) accounted for? Or just injuries. It’s hard to tell mechanically, and I was sadly out of town for most of the content so I’m not sure.

How does one define murder? He may have killed, but is someone who planted a cherry bomb in a mailpost a murderer when he held no intention on the “prank” flinging a piece of wood towards a kid next door, killing said kid? Or how about a police man who was on duty and got startled thus shooting someone fatally? Is a kid who jumped on a rake playfully, making it fling to hit someone who was carrying something dangerous and in turn that “something dangerous” to kill someone a murderer too? I could go on but now my ideas are becoming uncreative.

You defined murder earlier as “killing an innocent.” But again, how does one define innocent? You completely bypassed this question before. Furthermore, by the law, murder is the intentional and premeditated killing of someone (innocent or no) – which I think is a much more concrete and solid definition. By that standard, if there were fatalities by the crazed karka then yes Canach can be considered a murderer (though he never directly killed). But if his direct actions didn’t result in direct deaths and he didn’t intent for deaths of the refugees, would that still be murder? Premeditated, sure, intentional, no.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fair point in the case of Zhaitan and Jormag. Kralkatorrik wanted revenge on Glint. Revenge is an evil goal. Context matters however.

I punched you for xyz reason. You wanted to hit me back. That’s revenge. You’re evil.

Kralkatorrik likely viewed Glint as a traitor. She’s the reason why he starved into hibernation last time. She effectively attempted murder on him. I doubt that wanting revenge for such a situation can be considered “evil” – certainly not an act of good, but not evil either.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think it’s fair to say there is a big difference between drafting, and corrupting. When we draft people, we may give them a nice uniform. But we don’t twist their bodies an souls into nightmarish forms. And that still does not excuse the terror the Dragons spread, or their acts of murder.

Souls aren’t twisted. In some cases, they’re utterly excluded from the corruption. But I think you’re taking the term “corruption” a bit too literal here.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Can you prove that we are harming the world of Tyria?

I think that if you go and look at all the smoke coming from the Black Citadel (let alone the other charr outposts), or just take a stroll through the hearts of Metrica Province, you’ll see that the charr and asura are currently harmful to the world. If you look at history – Jade Wind, The Searing, The Cataclysm, Crystal Sea->Desert, the many dozens of wars in human history… how is this not harming the world? How could you possibly argue that effectively destroying an entire region’s ecological system is not harmful to the world?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

In the eyes of undead, they may think that way. But we know these waters were normal before. Before the demise of the continent at Khilbrons hands, the waters were clean. I see no reason why this dialogue means anything more than the minions of Zhaitan trying to keep things corrupted.

Oh, really?

You know the state of the world as it was when the world was made? I’m sorry, but no you don’t. No one does. Hell, you cannot even say the waters were clean before the Cataclysm, let alone before the coming of the Six Gods (who are known to have terraformed the landscape of Orr).

-one more post incoming-

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If they do not intend any harm to us, then why are then sending forth entire armies, and sending in their champions to attack our settlements? I get what you are saying, it could be that someone like Kralkatorrik cannot help turning things into crystal beneath his shadow… but then why does it also turn branded creatures into his dedicated twisted minions? It seems awfully convenient.

The Branded are doing two things:

1. Defending the Dragonbrand.
2. Trying to reach Kralkatorrik.

Each Elder Dragon sans Primordus was attacked by the races of Tyria first. As far as we can tell, it may be merely the case that they’re acting in retaliation. Kind of like the fall of Abaddon – Margonites defaced some stautes, Forgotten get annoyed and wage war on the Margonites, Abaddon gets annoyed and starts wiping out Forgotten armada, Five Gods get annoyed and beat up Abaddon.

In this case, Elder Dragon rises causing side-effect natural disaster, races see this as a threat and attack back, Elder Dragon retaliates via minions, enter back and forth.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Rewriting AI in itself is not an evil act. But genocide, even of the Geth, yes that is evil. Keep in mind though that rewriting their AI was part of a plan to actually stop the endless war between Geth and Quarrians. I think that’s what we call a necessary evil.

“Reewriting AI in itself is not an evil act.”

“I think that’s what we call a necessary evil.”

Uhhhhhhh….

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think we all know that Sylvari CAN be corrupted.

Currently, no, nothing shows that the Elder Dragons can corrupt sylvari. We can speculate that Modremoth can indirectly at best, since they never physically change, nor are they fanatical to a dragon, but no, we cannot say we know this for certain.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Does it really seem that way though? Didn’t Primordus prepare for war before even making contact with the Asura? Does it seem at all that the Elder Dragons are trying to stop wars? And do you believe for a second that the Elder Dragons would spare the lives of those other “peaceful” races?

I think of Primordus as a separate issue from the other elder dragons. Truthfully, I think of each Elder Dragon as different in the subject of judgment on being good or evil.

And actually, yes. There is evidence to support that sylvari would be spared. Two cases, in fact, in relation to Zhaitan.

1. During Close the Eye you meet a sylvari who went made by the Eye of Zhaitan. The risen could have simply killed her, yet they spared her life. Why?
2. Caithe is the only sylvari to have seen Zhaitan and lived to tell the tale. She had to get pretty deep into Orr territory to look at him. Yet she survived?

Makes me wonder what would happen if, lore-wise, a sylvari walked peacefully through dragon minions. Naturally, PCs cannot do this unless coded in a certain event or personal story, but it would be interesting to see nonetheless.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No one of course. We are all capable of good and evil. However, it’s fair to say most of the Norn children that had to flee their settlements (or were killed), did nothing to deserve that fate. I would definitely call them innocent. Or the Asura families that were murdered by Primordus and his army? All innocents.

You say no one is irrevocably innocent, yet label a bunch of unknowns who may not have even existed as innocent.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Child soldiers aside, I think most children should be considered innocent.

Why? Because they’re young? Children are just as capable of evil as an adult. The only difference is that adults – in most cases – are taught what’s deemed evil by others and why they shouldn’t do this; children not always so. But nonetheless, they can still do the acts that is deemed “evil.”

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Evil people can definitely be misguided, see again the definition at the start of this discussion. But the acts themselves would still be evil, and that makes the person committing them also evil. Even IF that person did not know he was doing evil, the fact that he doesn’t recognize the harm he’s doing, indicates an amoral person, committing vile acts. Evil people often do not consider their own acts evil, nor themselves. But they are never the less evil persons.

Congratulations, every PC in GW is evil. Congratulations, even you may be evil. Because the PCs and several NPCs seek out the total annihilation of various groups – krait, centaurs, Flame Legion, icebrood, Elder Dragons, branded, Sons of Svanir, Nightmare Court, Inquest, so on and so forth. You could be evil because you may do acts others would consider evil even if you don’t consider it evil.

Hallelujah we are all evil!

-more still coming up-

Erukk.1408:

If the soul was a type of energy/magic that the Elder Dragons can consume, could it be possible that the Elder Dragon could view us as a type of living resource? The same way humans view chickens, cows, pigs, plants, and such?

It would also explain why Glint hid away the races, after she was freed from the corruption by the Forgotten. After the Bloodstone sealed away all the naturally occurring magic, the only source of food by then, for the Elder Dragons, might have been the races themselves.

I’ve always theorized this was exactly why the Elder Dragons corrupt the living in the first place – and why Jormag devoured Owl (rather than just “killing” it). Ever since finding out that the Elder Dragons consume magic, that is.

lordkrall.7241:

Do we actually have any proof that magic comes naturally to people though? As far as we know everyone can learn to use magic, but no one can use magic at birth.

Until we actually know how magic in Tyria works this stating that we can never lose it is quite silly.

There are mentions of people who hate “innate talent” for magic, for example – Cynn from the Prophecies manual.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fair point. However, it stands to reason that the Elder Dragons are aware of the acts that their minions are committing. So whether they intended them to be evil or not, they sure aren’t make any effort to stop them from doing evil. And that in itself can be considered an evil act as well.

Let’s say you own a cat. Now lets say that this cat of yours kills a mouse. Will you punish it for killing the mouse (maybe if it brought the mouse’s corpse into your home, sure, but for just killing it)? Most likely not.

Elder Dragons don’t seem to view the races as something on par to them. Humanity, in reality – that is, us – find this “evil” or even “attrocious” because let’s face it, we’re stuck up due to the fact we’re the only openly sapient race on the planet. Ever read a story where there’s a species which is similarly sentient as humans, and treats humans as beneath the food chain? In most of these stories, the humans will view this other species as evil and vile, as wrong for believing such. But if you truly look at it – it’s little different than how humanity treats every other species on this planet. And for what? Because we cannot communicate, essentially. I’m not going to argue said species is “in the right” or even “not evil” – in most scenarios, they are evil and stuck up (just like your atypical egotistical rich noble/businessman in stories who view common folks as beneath him/her).

Now consider this: we, as far as we know, cannot communicate with the Elder Dragons. They see themselves as above us. As far as we can tell, this is no different than a human treating a cow as beneath them. A mere resource.

If that’s the situation, is the Elder Dragon still “evil” for not stopping a pet from killing other animals?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think the corruption they cause is a vile influence. It’s definitely not natural.

I have presented evidence that points to the possibility of the contrary (about the “not natural”). So what if it was natural for the world to look that way? That if, by nature, Tyria is meant to be a world of little daylight that holds shimmering landscapes of ice, fire, crystal, and so forth (odd thing about dragon corruption – they all look similar but with different colors and solidity – sans Zhaitan)?

-more in next post-

TBH, I’d rather not have a living story that gives us one new zone or so in an ever multi-month long campaign against an Elder Dragon (face it, sooner or later they will go after the other Elder Dragons) or god forbid, getting access to Elona – one zone at a time each month! >.<

Yeah… in such cases, an expansion would be much better. But when expanding the story of pre-existing zones (or small zones like Southsun or Labyrinthine), then living story is adequate.

As said, you can actually partake (or was it just help prepare then watch?) these Quaggan Games. There’s an event nearby Blue Ice Raking (one of the non-sinking iceberg Sanctuaries) near the underwater surface. The first event is helping find a ball used for the Quaggan Games. There’s quite a bit of dialogue regarding it and how hosting it and bringing the said ball is an honor among the quaggans – though now there’s only one village or so who plays the Quaggan Games due to Jormag’s actions.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is a difficult question. One that would never be possible in any real life setting. If we knew the Elder Dragons to be the last of their kind, then by wiping them out we would be committing a wrong act. However, since the dragons have made it pretty clear they do not want to share this world with us, they may not leave us any choice.

You keep going about real life settings, but we’re not really discussing that are we? We’re trying to discern, effectively, “are the Elder Dragons evil?” and by extension we are going into the question “what makes them evil (or not)? why does this make them evil (or not)? and could their acts be redeemed by something else about them (motivations, beliefs, nature, etc.)?”

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Korsbaek.9803:

why is stopping the elder dragons a good act?
because they are evil in our eyes, i will bet we are evil in there makeing it a full circle with evil killing evil when looking at it from both perspectives

They are objectively evil. As I pointed out, some acts cannot be defended. Primordus for example wanting to destroy everything. That is an outright evil goal.

This is where I utterly disagree with you.

At best, by your reasoning, they would be “conflicted” – doing evil acts yet also doing good acts. But this all depends on unknowns – what are their intentions, their motivations, their reasons and their reasonings, and how do they view others?

We know their actions, but not why they are. In most cases, the races shot first (not Han). In the few situations we see the Elder Dragons’ minions talking, they are acting out of revenge or with the belief – true or not – that the dragons’ influence is not harmful. In some cases, the later could simply be the fanatical-ness of the minions, but that still wouldn’t explain the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s words and tones, as if speaking like what we were doing was evil and unnatural.

Korsbaek.9803:

and for refrences to that magic can be removed look at the bloodstones and the fact that abaddon gave magic back to the races.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodstone
and
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic

Ugh. The GW2W’s article for magic has speculation and false facts up the wazoo, don’t trust it.

Also: Ritualists show that magic existed even between the time of the Bloodstone’s creation and Abaddon tampering with it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well if I remember correctly, (and I’m sure Konig will correct me on this if I’m wrong), Abaddon gave the people of Tyria the gift of magic. This lead to many wars, and thus King Doric pleaded to the Gods. What the Gods did was split the magic into different parts, through the sundering of the Bloodstones. This would prevent anyone from ever controlling all magic.

That’s what we were told initially, but the Arah explorable mode dungeon tells us that magic existed long before, that the bloodstone was made by the seers and Abaddon simply tampered with it in his granting the gift of magic. Honestly, I question if the four schools originate with the splitting of the Bloodstone now – as well as Doric’s role in the sealing.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And the Gods building Arah on Orr, because they were attracted to the magical powers of Zhaitan, was also copy pasted in later.

Er, no. They were attracted to the Artesian Waters. They tapped into Zhaitan when splitting the bloodstones, but it was the Artesian Waters that drew them from Orr (from across the Mists, might I add).

Tuomir.1830:

However, before the seers created the bloodstone, magic naturally didn’t come from it – from where, that is not certain, but many skill challenges seem to imply that magic comes from underground, and seems to somehow resonate with places with significant history. But no living being is born with magic in them, instead, some are born with the ability to channel it, originally from all around, and later through bloodstones. Distance doesn’t seem to make a difference.

Firstly, skill challenges hint to magic being in high concentration in two things: places of many deaths, and water.

Secondly, Oola disagrees with your claim that no living being is born with magic. She claims that we are the embodiment of magic – and it is true to an extent! Ritualists are able to bypass the Bloodstones and had magic beforehand through the use of souls. Demons – and other creatures – use souls as nourishment. At the very least, souls are power. Whether this power can be called “magic” is up to question, however.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Now it gets complicated, but this may be one of your best points yet. Good forces killing an evil being, are doing a good act (as the Book of Vile Darkness explained). And an evil creature, may believe that he/she is actually fighting evil, but that does not make it a good act.

However, if a so-called “evil” being believes he/she is fighting evil, how can you prove that person is evil in the first place? Would that not simply be “misguided”? I would not call someone who cannot differentiate between right and wrong yet does something cruel to be “evil.”

Take Canach for example. He is, without argument, a terrorist. He caused terror in an attempt to get rid of the binding contracts keeping the refugees on Southsun Cove. In doing so, he harmed innocents. But his intentions were good. Is he evil? I would say no. He was merely misguided.

Someone who is called evil, but him/herself believes is fighting evil, I would argue is likely to be such a situation. Someone who has good intentions, but is misguided. I would not call such things evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But those very same races also do good acts. And they act in retaliation to the aggressors, they did not start this war. People are defined by the sum of good and evil that they do. Not just the evil acts. Granted, some evil acts are worse than others.

By “this war” do you refer to against the Elder Dragons? But honestly, did they? In the case of Primordus, yes. But in the case of the others? With Jormag, we’re not sure who swung the blade first but after the norn were pushed south, at least until GW2’s time (since that’s more questionable), the Dragonspawn only acted in retaliation (the Sons of Svanir – both corrupted and non – act differently than the rest of the group, and the only assaulting non-SoS icebrood we’ve seen are those harrowing the kodan). But with Zhaitan, we know that ships traveled into Risen territory long before Dead Ships left Orrian waters – those ships could have acted as instigators (intentionally or not), thus sparking a war. With Kralkatorrik, his goal was Glint – the Branded were just caught up in a battle far larger than themselves, and since then the charr have been constantly assaulting.

Now, if those three Elder Dragons were each instigated into attacking the races by the races, who in turn instigated due to the natural destructions caused by the Elder Dragons simply moving about – be it the rise of a continent or shattering mountains when rising, or one’s breath twisting the land below in a fit of rage over betrayal. Would these three Elder Dragons still be evil? After all, one can then view corrupting into minions to be conscripting and drafting, and in war acts such as striking ports (even if mainly civilian) is quite a common and considered strategic act. If they are evil for such, then most of humanity’s history is evil.

However, you completely skipped over the most important part:

Even the races’ “good acts” prove harmful to the world. The charr who are advancing their science but in a polluting method (like most if not all charr tech is), then they are still harming the world in the long run. If an asura is advancing magitech in a polluting manner, then they are still harming the world. And it is this act of “harming the world” which I present as being why the Elder Dragons could be assaulting the races – one of many possibilities.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You would have to prove this first. Because currently nothing points in this direction. And Primordus even indicates that they may just be creatures of pure destruction.

ahem Clearly you forgot points I brought forth before. There’s one line with particular interest about this:

_*Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan:* Defilers! Poisoners! We see you. We know your foul intent. These waters must remain as they are – and you must die! _

The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan acts as if us “cleansing” the “corruption” changes things to be its unnatural state.

There’s also Whiting in Sea of Sorrows talking as if Orr is a sentient being.

-more in next post, again!-

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I disagree, because some of the minions are also corrupted in their very soul. And besides, turning beings into a state of dangerous vile fanaticism is still an evil act. Do we have any indication that these dragons are trying to transform people into loving benevolent creatures? No. They turn them into aggressive soldiers for their armies. That is evil.

King Reza disagrees with you about his soul being corrupted into evil.

How do you know the Elder Dragons intend their minions to be dangerous and evil?

No, nothing says the ED are trying to make benevolent minions, that doesn’t make them evil. They weren’t exactly benevolent before becoming minions either.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m not sure if I understand the question entirely, can you rephrase it?

You said that Zhaitan intended to rule Orr. But if Orr didn’t sink and wasn’t full of nothing but corpses, would Zhaitan still have intended to rule it? Nothing really says he had the intention to do so, just that he did rule a nation of corpses. So what if he didn’t wake up in a desolate nation but instead a thriving, living, nation? Would his actions be the same or different?

It was a rhetorical question – you cannot answer because we do not know what he would have done, because it is not stated that he had the forethought of ruling Orr before he woke up.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Normal people are turned into violent monsters. I think that is pretty obvious.

Then what of the land? Their influence on the land – is that evil?

Maybe they just aren’t compatible with living with creatures not similar to themselves – that they are just so old that when they came into being, such other creatures that could be twisted by their influence did not exist, but when they did, the combination was merely violent.

This would mean that the Elder Dragons are not evil outright, it’s just that their natural interaction with others is harmful. As if they’re unintentionally constantly getting static shocks when touching other things and beings.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Indoctrination is also an evil act. It is a form of mental corruption.

So by your standard – something I think you ignored utterly – Mass Effect 2 claims an evil act is good, by attributing Paragon points to where you have the choice to wipe out a religious sect of Geth, or rewrite their AI so that they refuse their beliefs.

In such a scenario – where leaving one be would result in them being crazed killers – is this an evil act? If no, then take into consideration how the races are. Humans are warmongering for thousands of years. Charr are warmongering for even longer. Asura seek to rule over the others. Kodan are self-rightous pompous kittens. They can all be corrupted. Forgotten sought honest balance not among themselves but the other races and the world; sylvari seek to learn and help the good and rid the evil – both of these races cannot be corrupted. An interesting thought to consider:

Only the races shown in large numbers to do evil in some form are seen corrupted. This ties back to my previous question of “what if the Elder Dragons are trying to protect the world by eliminating the threats that are slowly killing it?” The most violent races are the ones most often seen corrupted (or those seeking corruption in the case of the Sons of Svanir, whose personalities hardly change before and after corruption).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is where you are wrong. The laws put forward by society, help stop people from committing acts that are considered harmful to that society. But never the less there are acts that are always wrong, regardless of our laws. Such as genocide. Unless you cherry pick a very specific fantasy scenario, genocide is always en evil act. This is where we go back to objective morality. This is why laws do not dictate morality.

Genocide of the KKK or kittens. Evil; yes or no?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Brutally murdering and torturing innocent people is always a wrong act. That invalidates your statement.

You’re using that argument a lot, and I haven’t touched it yet, but now I will. Define “innocent” and ask yourself if there truly is anyone who can match a shared definition of the term. It’s all nice and dandy to use the term and using it to argue who or what is irrevocably evil but ask yourself this:

Who is irrevocably good or innocent? And if such people do not exist, wouldn’t that mean “people who are irrevocably evil” also couldn’t exist?

I have met, read about, and heard of even little children who are far from this so-called “innocent” – yet it is general belief that children are the most innocent of any human (far from it – more of “most ignorant”).

-more in next post-

Amanda Whitemoon.6173:

we need a timeline for after 1326 (start of gw2) about how what we all did fits in the timeline. i think mordremoth is still asleep and will wake up around 1370. (the 50 years theory that the waking up seems to have)

GW2 started out at the beginning of 1325. The entire course of the main campaign – including personal story, the open world’s story (which seems to progress based on levels), and dungeon stories (story and explorable mode), all occur before Halloween it seems. Then it’s the content update going in order. So basically: Vanilla(near start of 1325 (according to norn, the Great Hunt takes place in/near winter) and for several months (from Forging the Pact to The Source of Orr is “several weeks” – the length prior is unknown))->Halloween->The Lost Shores->Wintersday (calendar turns to 1326)->Flame and Frost 1,2,3 and 4->Secret of Southsun/Last Stand at Southsun->DragonBash/Sky Pirates->Bazaar of the Four Winds/Cutthroat Politics->Queen’s Jubilee

Tuomir.1830:

There are, in fact, vampires in Tyria (world), though they are rare, and bear little resemblance to the western concept of vampires.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hopping_Vampire

Beat me to it.

There are no “vampires” in the concept of beautiful undead humans who feast on the blood of the living and have a heavy weakness to sunlight. But the Hopping Vampire – which originates from Chinese mythology iirc – do exist. Though their origins in terms of GW is unknown. They appear to just be a unique form of Incubus/Blood Drinker.

I suspect that things like werewolves, vampires, etc. if they exist in Tyria in any form, will take the same appearance as mermaids and angels in Tyria. The concept of them is known, but that’s all they’re known for certain to be – a concept. You have things referencing mermaids (Siren’s Bay, Siren’s Call, etc. etc. Cobiah telling his sister a tale of seeing a mermaid), but nothing actually hints at them being true – and the response someone gave Cobiah when he explained why his sister was where she was, they gave a confused “a mermaid?” response as if they didn’t know what it was (so it’d be subject to believe that mermaids are an uncommon folklore tale – perhaps originating from largos?). Werewolves – if tales of such existed – could easily come from humans having seen a norn turning into wolf form before knowing what a norn was (e.g., before 1078 AE) – kind of like how werewolves in reality originate from the norsemen berserkers who wore wolfskins as they charged into battle while hopped up on drugs to feel no pain and become feral. And stories of vampires could come from well-appearanced undead or from blood magic necromancers.

But as far as we can see, such folklore creatures don’t exist.

You’re not the only one who wants them as playable races. However, it is impossible to know if Anet intends to ever add more playable races or even include the jungle dragon who’s hinted at being in hibernation still (which would mean that it won’t wake for another 45+ years game wise if it wakes naturally).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But keep in mind that prisoners end up in prison due to breaking the laws that society has agreed upon.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

You hit the nail on the head here. “that society has agreed upon". THAT is the true basis behind the definition of evil – acts deemed by a society to be “evil.” Laws are created to punish those “evil” acts, and prison is an act of evil to contain evil (the “lesser of two evils”). There is no universal law, and no universal good nor no universal evil.

If you want to be truthful, then there really isn’t a single thing that can be outright undeniably called “evil” – and the same thing for good. There are just things which harm, and things which help. And even then, whom are being harmed or helped differs – an act that helps one person may be harming another and vice versa.

As such, while we may consider the Elder Dragons to be evil, that does not mean that they are evil. Your “Book of Vile Darkness” is a book written by defining the evil of a fictional society – even if you agree with it, that’s all it is in the end. ALl of your views of what evil is, all of my views of what evil is, or Tourmir’s or so forth – none are an absolute truth of what evil is.

The Elder Dragons’ view of evil would end up being radically different than ours. The risen have shown that their view of evil is those who would “poison” the land by removing Zhaitan’s influence – they honestly believe that we are the ones doing harm to the world.

Now ask yourself this: what if they’re right?

Asura experiments pollute like crazy. The charr’s industrial age advancements obviously pollute too. When magic was more direct, humans and other races used it to destroy and scorch the land (Jade Wind, Cataclysm, Searing, scriptures of Dwayna and of Abaddon and even of Melandru).

What if the Elder Dragons are the world’s means of eliminating things harmful to the world. Are they still evil then? If so, that would mean that the world itself is evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

In some cases context matters, and in some cases it doesn’t. You can judge people by the good and the evil actions that they do. Genocide is never a good thing for example.

I disagree.

Would genocide of the mursaat be an evil act? They are a selfish race that has, on multiple occasions through multiple generatinos, willingly sacrificed thousands and even almost an entire race just for the sake of preservation. There wasn’t a single mursaat with a redeeming value. Is the GW1 PC evil for wiping them out to near extinction?

How about the Elder Dragons – would wiping them out, committing genocide on them – be an evil act? By your argument, the Elder Dragons are all irrevocably evil. Therefore, it would be a good act to commit genocide by killing them and their minions all off.

You cannot have both ways here, Malafide. Tell me, is genocide when the genocide’s victims are all evil still an evil act? You yourself argued “no” before:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Heroes going off to kill an evil dragon are not evil for the act of stopping that beast from causing more misery. In this case we can clearly tell that the dragons are up to no good, and are a threat to the races around them. Killing them is there for a just cause. There is no nefarious reason why we want to kill the Elder Dragons. We fight them to stop them from killing more people.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/The-Dragons-might-not-be-evil/page/3#post2510037

By wiping out all Elder Dragons, we commit genocide. Which you say is evil.

However, by killing the Elder Dragons which you say are outright evil, you are doing good – not evil.

Your argument has become a contradiction.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

This gift of his, is also a form of corruption. Svanir for example was corrupted, as are the icebrood. They are good people turned into monsters. It is most definitely not a good act, and it is entirely in Jormag’s favor. He creates minions for his army.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Outright, their actions of “corruption” are not outright evil.

Yes they are. Turning good creatures into evil creatures, is an evil and unnatural act.

All that the “corruption” really is, is taking flesh and blood and turning it into an element (ice, crystal, etc.) and driving in an intense sense of fanaticism. Fanaticism can lead individuals to do both good or evil, but the act of being fanatic itself is not evil – and in turn, the act of corruption does not turn someone from good to evil, but someone from good and independent to unknown and fanatical.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Bringing back a whole continent from the depths in order to rule it yourself with your army of undead minions, is not a good act. Likewise, there are hints that some Risen are corrupted in body and soul (as was pointed out some pages earlier). Those are evil deeds.

I ask you this:

Where is it said that Zhaitan intended to rule Orr if it wasn’t full of nothing but corpses?

Can you tell me, exactly, how is the Elder Dragons’ influence “evil” – what makes them turning another being from one kind of material to another “evil.” I think you’re putting too much stock on the word “corruption” when it really isn’t. It is to the races of Tyria, but from an objective viewpoint? The only “bad thing” one can really consider is the -effectively – indoctrination effect that it has.

And if altering one’s free will is evil, then why does Mass Effect 2 attribute Paragon points to doing such an act to millions of individuals at one time?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes you can. This is the same reason we can blame cruel dictators for the atrocities that their soldiers commit, even if it wasn’t on their explicit orders. The Elder Dragons make no effort to stop their minions from doing evil acts either, which is in itself an evil mindset.

There is two keys of note here:

1) A dictator makes the orders. And when soldiers commit crimes not ordered, unless the superior just doesn’t give a kitten (making him either amoral or evil), said soldier would be punished.

2) This doesn’t show that Elder Dragons evil, it just shows that they may be evil – or they are indifferent to the act. And it is the later that they are presented as.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is true. This does not hold true for Primordus however.

Incidentally enough, I was going to say “the only Elder Dragon I would consider outright evil is Primordus.” But I removed the sentence for post length.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Both. The cruel dictator that rules them, and the servants that commit atrocities under his rule, are both guilty of evil.

So you’re saying that you will be guilty of the acts that employee that you hired committed?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Regardless of your intentions, if the person does not want to be brought back, it is still an evil act. But I’ll admit that there are gray areas here.

Is it an evil act if you didn’t know the person wouldn’t want to be brought back? If you don’t know, I wouldn’t consider it evil – ignorance, despite what some people may believe, is not evil (nor is it bliss).

-more in next post-

Yeah, I saw that a while back and was wondering the same. If Isgarren and Garren held ties.

The way the asura says breach and broken, makes it sound more like their defenses were breached and what kept the structure floating was broken – resulting in the structure falling, people screaming and dying from that fall.

I am doubtful that the story will go into what caused the Great Collapse. The Shining Blade are covering the truth behind the Great Collapse and won’t even let the Ministry Guard in, by the queen’s orders. So if this is a celebration related to the queen unless it’s Marjory going undercover, Jennah would likely know what caused it want continue to want to keep it covered.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

This is in stark contrast to the Elder Dragons and their mindless, throwaway minions that we see in the game.

And this is why you think that the GW2 villains are poor.

The Elder Dragons aren’t mindless. Nor do they only have one motivation – if you looked through Jormag’s minions, or Zhaitan’s minions you’d see this. You’d see personality to them. Sadly, Sea of Sorrows is the best means of finding out the latter.

The problem isn’t the villains, it’s ArenaNet not putting all of their story and their lore at face value. And this has been an issue since day 1.

We had similar discussions more than once, actually.

The short of it is this:

The Inquest has member(s?) within the Arcane Council and, on top of this, Flaxx who leads the council has the motive to control everything more or less and uses the Inquest as a “cheap and effective” means of advancing technology – if and when alternatives to the same or better results with better or same resources (respectively or better of both) are found (such as the asura Dynamics storyline), Flaxx will go with that better alternative.

The asura krewes do not like the Inquest, but within Rata Sum and Soreen Draa, the Inquest are tolerated by decree of the Arcane Council – a (mostly) corrupt government.

Eluveitie.1290:

It’s going to be the Crown Pavilion, and the release is related to the celebration of Queen Jennah’s 10th year of rule.

Source?

Lonami.2987:

That’s pretty sad, considering we do have risen ship models, like the one you fight at northern Sparkfly Fen (and appears sank at the seafloor after you destroy it).

Those are ships that are made from bone and flesh, not actual Orrian ships – of which there’s only one known such ship.

Caerus Sparks.6905:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though the book says the house Cobiah built was on the northern shore.

It says he built it on the northern shore of the Inner Harbour actually (the one to the east, as opposed to the Sanctum Harbour to the west), which fits with the Commodore’s Manor POI rather than the Red Alert storyline manor.

True, but still wouldn’t fit the Derevol Island house.

A dev already said that it isn’t Canthan-related.

In the recent GuildMag interview, we were told we’ll be going to Divinity’s Reach for a celebration of some sort, so it’s likely related to that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Heroes going off to kill an evil dragon are not evil for the act of stopping that beast from causing more misery. In this case we can clearly tell that the dragons are up to no good, and are a threat to the races around them.

You utterly missed my point. What if they view us as evil? Would they still be evil if they’re under the belief that they’re the just that are fighting evil? That would make them no different than the races of Tyria, who are “killing to end an evil threat”

Both sides cannot be just while both sides are evil. But it is possible that both sides are evil or even that both sides are just.

What if the Elder Dragons are not evil? They may do acts that we see as evil, but we’re not seeing the context. Similarly, to them, we are doing acts that seem evil. If they view us as evil, that doesn’t make them outright wrong. We just view ourselves as good and would disagree with them.

To sum up my entire argument:

Point One: You are presuming context where none is presented and using this presumption to label the Elder Dragons as evil when we cannot properly do so. Using your krait analogy – while the Elder Dragons’ actions may seem worse to us, we know the context behind the krait. They’re brainwashed by their manipulative theocratic leadership to believe that they are the omega race and should dominate all other races (in a way, it is not “the krait are evil” but rather “the krait are manipulated to doing evil by their evil leadership”).

Point Two: Evil by definition is subjective and no one will ever consider themselves evil except for archetypal children fantasy villains. By effect, to the Elder Dragons the races of Tyria are the evil ones. Again to use the krait, they would view us as evil for not upholding to our proper place in the food chain – for trying to defy fate so to speak – but wouldn’t view themselves as evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

So, the ball is in your court now. Give me some examples of good things the Elder Dragons have done so far.

Good acts of an Elder Dragon? Jormag had given strength and power to those who asked him for it – those who come from a society where lack of strength means death (a hunter individualistic society). Those who murder are in fact the Sons of Svanir, which Jormag cannot control their view on him or what to do; no more than I can control your views or those who call me the “god of lore” or “lord of lore” or whatever (annoying titles they are -_-).

Zhaitan rose an entire nation that was sunken by dark magic and gave the citizens who los their lives because of Abaddon a second chance, giving them unlife eternal.

Outright, their actions of “corruption” are not outright evil. What makes their actions evil is what their minions do after being “corrupted” (side note: the use of the word “corrupted” is solely determined by the races of Tyria – they view the dragon’s influence as corruption, when all it is truly doing is transforming). However, we don’t know how much control the Elder Dragons hold over their minions – as shown by the game and novels, in fact, they don’t hold much control at all. The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan seemingly goes against Zhaitan’s orders by letting the PC and Trahearne pass four champions (I’m sure that would have wtfpwned them). Captain Whiting focuses upon Cobiah and the Maw slaughters risen and living alike. As shown by Sea of Sorrows, there is a lot of the old personality kept even in the more minor minions, but their champions who keep a lot more of their old personality are capable of going against what one would think the Elder Dragon would want.

So when the minions can easily counter-act the master’s orders, who can you truly blame for the acts of evil we see from the Elder Dragons? I doubt that you could call Zhaitan evil for the tidal wave that happened when he woke up, given that it was a mere side-effect of him waking – just as the Shiverpeaks shattering was of Jormag’s awakening.

So the question I ask you is this:

Are the ones who’re evil the Elder Dragons, or the fanatical minions that they don’t fully control who do the actions?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

So you’re saying that if I can animate zombies in real life, that I’m not doing an evil act?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Raising the dead would be in any real world context an evil act. But in the setting of Tyria it is a gray area. It is not explicitly okay, and this is pointed out in GW2 several times, but it is not entirely evil either.

I would say that raising the dead as undead can be both good or evil – all depending on the context – or even an amoral act.

If you’re raising mindless zombies who go on killing sprees. That’s evil. If you’re raising an undead army to invade the world. That’s evil. If a friend or lover of yours was killed and you’re raising the person to give him/her a second chance at life. That’s not evil – they may not want it, but you’re trying to do good and you’re intentions are good. If you’re raising an undead with the intent to study how it works so that you can further it – that in of itself is neither good nor evil, it depends on why you want to further it and even that may end up being neither good nor evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I would not call that slavery. We do have rules, and prisoners have rights.

Some slaves had rights too. They were called indentured servants. People would still consider that evil. Yet prisons are A-O-K!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No you are incorrect. You are deliberately using the vague term “lesser beings”.

Right, I was deliberately vague. That was my entire point behind the question:

Without context, you cannot call someone good, nor can you call them evil, nor can you call them amoral.

“Murder” versus “killing” “slavery” versus “indentured servitude” or what have you. Minor word choices to separate an act without context from an act with context.

Though the book says the house Cobiah built was on the northern shore. And the structure on Deverol Island was a cathedral to the Six Gods (which must have changed in the 100-some years).

The Movement of the World

The Asura believe they are destined to rule the larger, less intelligent races of the world.

[…]

As a step in their master plans, the Asura established good relations with every other intelligent race on Tyria, from the militant Charr to the inquisitive Sylvari. They even established Asura Gates in major cities to provide safe passage from city to city and promote trade. However, they control these gates jealously, maintaining their trade routes and their neutrality as carefully as a gem, always keeping themselves on the edges of disputes and wars. Their own cities are far off the main paths of travel, distant even from central Lion’s Arch. There they perform experiments, searching for new magics and new power to control.

Although some say the Asura have integrated into society, it would be more accurate to say they’re creeping over it like ivy and moss, fingers digging into crevices where their magic can take hold.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Asura

I do believe there is a direct mention of Lyssa and a mirror as an expression in GW2. Not sure when or where though.

But I do believe that the Lady of the Mirror is meant to be Lyssa.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Gandarel.5091:

If it would depend on Konig, we would never see them.

I’m pretty sure Konig is just as interested in both Fractals. It’s just that the mystery of the reactor intrigues him more, which is totally understandable.

I personally don’t think he’ll get the lore he’s looking for, while the Abaddon fractal would be a much more defined event in Tyria’s history.

Correct on the first part Malafide. Both paths – not only in fractals, but the candidate’s influence on the living story whether win or lose – interests me equally. If anything, the fall of Abaddon and Evon winning holds more interest to me.

I doubt I’ll get the lore I’m hoping for with the reactor, however, I still hold to the notion that we’ll be getting more lore than with the Abaddon fractal – because we not only know most of the story about Abaddon’s fall, but the fractal won’t be true to Tyria’s history. Furthermore, a dev posted a hint at what to expect with the reactor fractal. To paraphrase: “I wonder what would happen if you introduce Chaos Magic to the Mists?”

Indeed, what would happen? That alone would be new lore – regardless of what we get about the reactor itself. And certainly far more new than the Abaddon fractal could provide – a mere re-interpretation of known events as they did not happen.

The key thing to remember about fractals is that we won’t see what actually happened. We may see something close, or we may merely see the location and time and people (plus or minus some) with utterly differing end results. If we get the Abaddon fractal, we may end up seein Abaddon win over the other five gods. We may not see the other five gods at all. Or we will see him fall. Or we will be the ones to make him fall. Or anything can happen, really. Hell, an Elder Dragon could rise up and consume Abaddon just before he’s defeated becoming an Uber Elder Dragon.

Scott McGough.6897:

My feelings aren’t hurt. But maybe for the next interview post title, go with last names only? “McG” only has three letters, after all. :-)

First names only may work better – Ree is shorter than Soesbee and Scott shorter than McGough.

Narcemus.1348:

I dare say, it be dangerous for ArenaNet employees to write in this forum. Just one comment and BAM we drag you in!

tosses net on Scott OKAY BOYS! Let’s reel ’im in!

Though in seriousness, it would be nice to have more frequent dev postings, if only to now and then tell us a small hint or something whether we’re on the right track or not or to clarify a confusion about pre-presented lore.

Obsidian.1328:

1v1 Ascalonians wtfpwn Charr. Charr strength was in their numbers, not fighting prowess.

Read Sea of Sorrows or Ghosts of Ascalon where it’s outright stated that one charr is worth the fighting strength of seven humans (roughly on my memory). The charr strength wasn’t just in their numbers, but their fighting prowess too.

Obsidian.1328:

The principle defense against the Mursaat, infusion, wasn’t magic related. So no, they wouldn’t have wtfpwnd Kryta.

You presume that Krytans would last long enough to seek the Seer’s aid, which they only got because the dwarves knew of the seer and they only got that because they were forced to flee from the White Mantle. Without Abaddon going bad, the Flameseeker prophecies would never have existed – no Searing, no charr invasion, no White Mantle, no Chosen-to-kill-mursaat. Mursaat have no need of Krytans, so they don’t need to hide in the shadows. Of course, I make the presumption that the mursaat would even care enough to face Krytans – but then again, the entire OP is a presumption as is my response to it (and as said, intentionally so).

Obsidian.1328:

If there was no magic, there’d be no Elder Dragons either. They were written into GW2 lore as devourers of magic, and, by default, to eclipse the human gods as the apex beings of power in Tyria. Can’t have human gods in charge in a game with multiple races ya know.

Baka. Magic exists regardless of Abaddon, however, without Abaddon magic would be stuck in the Bloodstone. The Elder Dragons, which predate the bloodstone and the Six Gods, would exist with magic regardless. Doesn’t matter when or why they were written in.

Obsidian.1328:

You know Konig, if you didn’t answer posts with such scathing rhetoric, your ideas might be a little better received in this community.

just sayin…

Except that my post was meant to be sarcastically hypocritical. It was meant to be with scathing rhetoric. Also:

You know Obsidian, if you didn’t answer posts with such blatant ignoring of GW2 lore, your ideas might be a little better received in this community.

Just saying.

The argument works both ways, my friend.

I hate to burst your “Think you know it” spree; but the lore we’d be getting with the Abbadon Fractal details HOW he fell from being a righteous God. Not the “Fight along side Kormir” bit. Hence “The Fall of Abbadon” Meaning; His fall from the good graces of the other Gods. If you go to the GW2 Wiki is says the Fall of Abaddon Fractal is pre GW1. Let me bold it for you this time: The Fall of Abbadon Fractal is PRE-GW1"

Which means it IS new lore. We’ll be finding out why he fell and for what purpose.

I know what the fractal will be about and it STILL isn’t new lore.

There were pre-NF-release documents detailing the fall of Abaddon released to the Asian communities. Two have been translated (roughly) and are linked to at the bottom of GWW’s Abaddon article. The better of the two translated articles Even without the fractal, we know what happened.

And even then, this is a FRACTAL – Fractals by definition are Mist-created bubbles of the past (so far), and by definition the Mists create imperfect copies. The sPvP and Fractals areas are altered past experiences. What we would see in either Fractal will not be what actually happened.

There’d be new lore, but it’d be 1) untrustworthy and 2) not nearly as much as the Thaumanova reactor. At best, we’ll only see a reskinned Cliffside Fractal’s colossus as Abaddon and we’ll learn what he looked like pre-fall (which is already known somewhat via his GW2 statue).

Gandarel.5091:

It’s interesting how you call my points speculation while yours is real nonsese.

That was actually my entire point. We can speculate things would go either way.

Gandarel.5091:

You are a traitor to GW1 and lore Go chill out at CoE or the Uncategorized fractal and enjoy your asura dungeons YOU ALREADY HAVE.

You do realize that I just don’t care which side wins, right? Honestly speaking, I’m probably more interested in Evon’s influences in the living story, though I don’t like his personality. This doesn’t make me a traitor. Hell, how can someone be a traitor to a game? You exagurrate.

And to use your argument against you:

You are a traitor to GW2 and lore Go chill out at Elona or the Realm of Torment and enjoy your Abaddon campaign YOU ALREADY HAVE.

Same difference between CoF/UF and Thaumanova fractal as NF and Abaddon fractal.

Gandarel.5091:

Zhaitan got defeated by a mega-laser.. I don’t think he could beat a god face to face. When Zhaitan died, he just fell down. When Abaddon, who was already defeated and a bit powerless, imprisoned in the realm of torment, was killed, his unleashed power was so strong that it could have destroyed 2 worlds.

Zhaitan was starved, blinded, his forces and his corruption annihilated. Read the most recent GuildMag interview, they explain that his appearance in the dungeon is because he was so weakened by the Pact’s actions. And the laser and cannons were specifically designed to be harmful to Zhaitan.

An Elder Dragon that wasn’t weakened could shatter mountains, raise peninsulas, and utterly scar landscapes. It took FIVE gods to do what one Elder Dragon who just woke up did.

Gandarel.5091:

Canthan military could be still ways larger than the Tengu, if we look at the territory itself.

[…]

The charrs without a Khan-Ur agains the humans and their gods would have faced total defeat on the long run if the gods have stayed, and without the titans, the searing couldn’t have happened, nor the invasion, nor the alliance of the legions.

You presume that the Canthans – who were already losing in the Tengu wars and was the reason why Togo initiated peace talks – would have enough military force without the population increase caused by the Jade Wind. No Kurzick or Luxon refugees fleeing north, no Kaineng City. It’s a question in of itself whether or not there would have been a Tengu Wars, but if there were to be then the humans would be at a larger disadvantage than they already were.

And you presume that the gods would remain if they never fought Abaddon. Hell, for all we know magic could still have been gifted with or without Abaddon.

Yes, my post was speculative, but it was to show how speculative yours was. And your response to mine is equally speculative. We can speculate all day long about the repercussions of “no Abaddon” but for all we know we could say “humanity would be dead” or “humanity would be the sole sentient race on the world of Tyria.” It’s an impossible thing to argue. That was the point I was trying to show all along.

Gnat.9405:

Sorry I just can’t believe that the connection between infusing against agony(gw1) and infusing against agony(gw2) simply doesn’t exist.

In Guild Wars 1, we used the ethereal essence of Eidolons, infusing that into one’s armor in order to protect against Spectral Agony – a skill used by the mursaat even in ancient days.

In Guild Wars 2, we use the essence of… the Mists? Not very clear, infusing into trinkets, in order to protect against… something painful generated by the Mists? Again, not very clear.

The only similarity is the function and names. The origin of the infusions and the “agony” is entirely different. At least, as far as we can definitively tell.

The temple mentioned in the book was in the pre-Flooded Lion’s Arch, and by description sounded to be in an area we could not reach.

Given Livia’s depiction, she is not a lich. Lichs are undead; rotten and decayed. Livia is not. How she gained longevity is unknown, obviously since Sea of Sorrows is the only source of her having such. Whether it deals with her study in the scepter is similarly unknown. No point in making a thread because all we can really do is baseless conjecture.

I find it interesting how Malafide ignored my own questions and merely quoted a book that is no less subjective than any person reading this thread. Besides, why should a book from Dungeons and Dragons be used to define evil in the world of Tyria let alone for us?

Malafide, your arguments sound extremely biased to me, and you’re trying to argue that there is a set-in-stone definition for “what is evil” when there is, in fact, no such thing. Even one’s own view of what is evil or not may change over time.

Korsbaek.9803:

looking at the dragons side we are the evil once for trying to kill it when all its doing is trying to survive.

Unproven but possible.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You are falling into the same trap of making excuses for a murderous monster. We’re talking creatures here that eradicate all life. Not just life that is a threat to them, but also harmless children.

It’s the equivalent of pointing at a murderous psychopath and saying, he’s not evil, he may have had a difficult childhood. Or maybe he felt threatened by those children, so he had good reasons for his murderous acts.

Actually, I’m not falling into that trap at all.

I’m explaining that we don’t know their motives, and if their motives – which wouldn’t be an excuse – were not what you expect, would they still be deemed evil?

You’re falling into the trap of looking at them in a one-sided manner.

In your example of the murderous psychopath with a difficult childhood, I would not say he’s not evil. I would say that he’s evil because of that difficult childhood. About the “felt threatened by” – it depends on the circumstance, but most of the time I would say that’s a very poor excuse.

Feeling threatened by is not the same as actually being threatened by. Which in my example scenario, the situation’s the later.

Alleluia.1320:

So I have a question: To those who want to argue the elder dragons aren’t evil, do you at least agree that the act of corrupting people/nature, bringing death and undeath where there was once life, and enslaving people is evil? Just trying to get some common ground here.

I wouldn’t say that bringing undeath to the dead is evil, but I would say that the act of killing in of itself and slavery in of itself are evil acts – but again, that’s arguing without context.

Prisoners are effectively slaves, enslaved by the judicial system as they are without the freedom to leave or do what they wish. Is that slavery evil? No.

Is a man who kills in self-defense evil? No.

It’s all about the context, not the action. An action without context is not something to judge, because even something that would otherwise be viewed as noble and good will be seen as evil and inexcusable.

Tell me if this is evil:

A man lives in a specific location, owning it by right of his peers. On his land he takes in lesser beings, raising them and taking care of them from birth. When they come to a certain age, he butchers them and ships their corpses out to his peers. Others he’ll sell off for a certain price.

Is this man evil? Looking at only what he does, many may very well say yes. Looking at it like that, without knowing what I’m referring to, I’d say that Malafide would say yes. But this is a farmer,. and what farmers everywhere do.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

How can I explain evil to you, when you don’t think the complete destruction of a society (including killing innocent children) is wrong?

So in that regard, the races bringing the Elder Dragons’ race into extinction is also evil, correct? If you say no, you’re choosing sides and being biased. In the scenario that you claimed I was “falling in a trap” – who’s the evil ones? The race that nearly got extinct, or the race that came in and did the extinction? The former would be the Elder Dragons and by your very statement, the other races are evil.

Evil is too subjective.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But they know that they are causing death and suffering. They just don’t care what we think.

There is nothing to claim or support this. In fact, if we were to use the risen’s and icebrood’s own words for this, then it is WE who are causing death and suffering, while they are fixing it.

In a war between two nations, who’s the evil one? Both sides are causing death and suffering, even to civilians in cases. Is America evil for the war in Iraq? Is America evil for dropping the nukes on Japan? Is Julius Ceasar evil for his actions in life? Alexander the Great? They all caused death and suffering. Yet society does not deem them as evil.

Labels such as “good” and “evil” are biased, subjective, and outright lies. They are terms used to glorify oneself and demonize their opponent. And that’s what you’re doing – calling the Elder Dragons evil without even looking at their side of the argument. To them, we could be the evil ones. Saying such doesn’t say that I’m falling into a trap. Because I never claim that they’re good either.

The opponent is always “evil” and yourself always “good” – there’s no one who will openly admit “I am evil.” No one outside of archtypal fantasy villains at least. Which the Elder Dragons are not.

Their appearance change is just a redesign to fit their developed lore of them being deep sea creatures. Their lack of morphing is unexplained however.

That plaque’s placement is quite odd. There is a PoI called Maw and Pride in Claw Island, all the way to the east. You cannot see it on the world map sadly, but if you go there you can see machine and wood wreckage and a giant leviathan skeleton. The plaque was likely placed where it was just so that folks can get to it. Though I would have preferred Claw Island turned into an instance after Retribution and the plaque placed there.

Claw Island always existed, they just built atop of that. Like I said before, do remember that the game’s distances are scaled down quite a bit for playability reasons – otherwise, the entire Tyrian continent would only be about 11 by 20 miles (according to GW1 measurements at least).

The Harbinger is likely where it is for the same reason that the Maw and Pride wreckage plaque is where it’s at – so players can get to it. Do take note of the small distance between Orr and the Ring of Fire islands. The fight was off of the RoF coast, and iirc, was sunk while fleeing. Though it’d have made more sense to be in Cursed Shore, it’s location is not all too unreasonable.

As for the Harbinger’s appearance – blame limitation on model options. There are no Orrian ship models in GW2. They wouldn’t have made a brand new ship model for a single ship either.

Quite the speculation. Keep in mind, however, that no one would have magic – not in its current form at least. So Ascalonians would get wtfpwned because they’re just going strength vs. strength – they were able to hold back thanks to magikittenil the charr got better magic, but without being able to hold out thanks to magic, the charr would just wtfpwn them.

Mursaat would have returned regardless and slaughtered all the magicless humans with their own Spectral Agony since it wasn’t taken in the Bloodstone. Bye bye Kryta.

Zhaitan would have risen regardless, wiping out most of the humans there and devouring the gods if they remained – if not, then humans would have no means of defense and get wiped out anyways, just no tidal wave caused by a rising of the land.

Cantha – Canthans would have gotten their kitten handed to them by the tengu because they’re idiots who encroached on tengu territory and sparked a war, without the population increase caused by refugees from the Jade Wind incident, the empire’s population would be too low to build up a large enough army to do that. Luxons and Kurzicks would keep beating each other up in the meantime.

Elona – Joko never existed in the first place as a lich, and no Varesh-gone mad. So they’re the only human bastion left when the Elder Dragons rise. The Margonites still roam the Crystal Sea, and are the main human fighting force against Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik.

Not quite what you imagine, eh Gandarel?

Did you really have to create another thread on this? If folks who never played GW1 want to know about Abaddon, we have the Temple of the Forgotten God to spark interest. And the mention of the Fall of Abaddon would spark some interest to, and they’d go to the wikis and read the lore. The fractal will not be giving as much lore as you think it will. I can promise that.