Guild Wars 2

Ok, I just looked at a video from 2 years ago, and it didn’t remove conditions when using MoRecovery. Sorry Anet, I take back my uber rage!!! Forgive me. I guess now, my thread title will just be click bait.

But we can still discuss the wording on Mender’s Purity.

Whether it used to work the way I describe it or not, they need to be more explicit in how Mender’s Purity works. I’m definitely mincing words here like a pro sous chef, but it’s worth exploring the different ways you can interpret this trait.

• Does it work when we heal ourselves with a heal skill?
• Does it work when when use a heal skill?
• Does it work when we heal ourselves?
• Does it work when we are healed.

UPDATE: Cho’s rage was totes undeserved. Sorry anet. Now, we can just discuss the wording on Mender’s Purity and hopefully have a helpful discussion on how it should be worded.

So, I’m not usually the poster who rages against Anet. In fact, you might call me one of those optimistic fluffy types in relation to gw2. I love the Mesmer class, and I’ll never play another one, because I enjoy it that much even with the many issues with the profession and obvious neglect. I complain once about something they do [or don’t do], and I try not to mention it again as I don’t believe having a toxic relationship with the developers is healthy for the game or my enjoyment.

That being said, I’m really disappointed with a change that I just found out tonight. About 3 or 4 months ago, I was experimenting with a mantra bunker build, and I explicitly remember removing 2 conditions when charging Mantra of Recovery giving me 6 removed for Recovery and 4 removed for Mantra of Resolve. If I totally made this up in my head, please tell me now and delete this thread, but I’m pretty sure I’m not crazy. Now, Mender’s Purity doesn’t cleanse any conditions when you charge your MoRecovery. idk when this was fixed, but I don’t remember being made aware of it. Again, if this was posted somewhere please tell me. I have thick skin and can take any amount of criticism. lol

If Anet wants to call this “a fix”, then so be it. An argument can be made that they never intended for MoRecovery to remove conditions since Mender’s Purity explicitly states “Remove conditions when you heal.” and MoRecovery doesn’t actually heal you. It’s Power Return that heals you. Compare this to centaur runes and other runes that state “_ when you use a heal skill.” Here’s my issue: if you aren’t going to be transparent about changes that effect the viability (lol) of our class, then you have to accept the responsibility of receiving criticism on why skills work some ways but don’t in others based on their wording. i.e. Power Block.

Now, due to the shady way this trait was changed to work with Mantra Heal, I have several questions on on the wording of and how Mender’s Purity actually works:

• Should it remove conditions when we heal via regen, other allies, passive heal on signet of ether, etc? Obviously not what they intended but just play along with me here.
• Should it remove conditions when healing ourselves via Restorative Mantras? i.e. MoRecovery would remove conditions as would MoPain (imagine that!). Why wouldn’t this be the case based on the way Mender’s Purity is worded? This also isn’t what is intended, but if they don’t want it to work this way, they need to change the wording on Mender’s Purity to “remove 2 conditions when you use a heal skill”.

I don’t even use our mantra heal skill for anything and won’t be using it for much of anything in the future. However, I need some transparency here, because it seems like Anet continues to make “fixes” that, in actuality, nerf our class.

Kazhiel.8194:

Yeah, I am experimenting with some differences now

Or just take BI instead of Restorative Mantras. It’s working out quite nicely with the AOE interrupts.

jportell.2197:

phokus.8934:

If you’re double ranged Shatter and have Illusionary Elasticity, then using MIrror Blade does very well against turrets.

We’re not completely helpless against turret Engineers. Just stay ranged, keep putting pressure up, Shatter when you need to, and just making sure you’re using IE to its fullest.

See this is the most annoying thing, the answer is stay ranged. This is conquest no matter how long it takes me to kill him I HAVE to stay at range. They are literally the only build/spec in the game that you have to stay at ranged for the entire flipping fight. And as was already mentioned, if they are smart several points in the game they can LOS you and just force you to get up close and personal. Yeah, turret engis are fine.

With all due respect, I don’t see how you are very… surprised? Turrets are tailor made for conquest it seems, and combine the fact that you’re using double ranged Shatter (the name suggests that this is a ranged spec lol), and it’s obvious why you’d be faced with this situation often.

You don’t have to be a hero and take on the engi 1v1. If you’re playing a Mesmer, your job is to roam with your team. In your case, as power shatter, you shouldn’t be 1v1ing anyone anyway.

It’s been a while since I’ve consistently played power shatter, but there’s not much you can do that’s effective. The match up simply isn’t in your favor. Here are your options:

• Disengage and help your team else where. Time is of the essence. This is your best option.
• Bring an ally to 2v1 him.
• Spend 2-4 minutes whittling down the engi’s HP from ranged distance. lol

I don’t think the purpose of a dps shatter is to go around 1v1ing other builds, especially in this meta. It doesn’t help that I honestly don’t think dps shatter is the best dueling build ever to begin with, unless you’re speccing for duels. And if you’re speccing for duels like they do in koth, you’re not speccing for tpvp.

Focus on +1ing fights instead. Leave the 1v1 ganking for thieves. Blow team fights up like you’re supposed to on dps shatter.

pack runes with focus does the trick

Played some games with this and here’s my feedback:

PROS

• Fantastic reflects. Even after enemies figured out my strategy, it was hard for them to counter, because I had reflects ready for half of their weapon set. I felt great being able to bring a Mesmer mechanic from PvE (reflects) and make it work in PvP as well.
• Focus is so underrated! The sword/focus+Staff weapon set is my FAVORITE weapon set, and one of the reasons why I love playing CI lockdown. It’s entirely melee oriented and can definitely fight on point with the best of them. Very great at interrupting rezzes/stomps.
• Surprisingly not disappointed in pDefender. It ensured that I would survive in all my 1v1s until help came on its way.
• Great sustain due to the ample condition clear, extra heal on mantra and Restorative Mantras.

CONS

• I’m instantly reminded why Feedback outside of Medic’s Feedback sucks. It’s my personal opinion that it should be ground targeted. There’s many times where if you’re not paying attention, you’ll target someone with Feedback and they’ll simply walk outside of its AOE. This happened once, and I remembered to not play like a noob and target melee fighters or turrets depending on where I wanted the glamour. This is frustrating, yet manageable. The CD is also pretty long. I always thought this should be lower than Null Field considering how easy it is to counter.
• If my enemy isn’t heavily projectile focused, I will not be able to kill them. It suffers from not having much might like I guessed it would due to the cele stats. Therefore, you probs shouldn’t roam alone with this too often unless you can win the matchup.

Note: I typically use blink over Decoy. Decoy is great for channeling mantras or summoning phantasms, but blink outshines it in every other regard, and if given a choice between one or the other 80% of the time, I go with Blink.

Overall, I am very happy with this. I’m going to play on it a bit more. I might swap out restorative mantras for bountiful interruption. Your AOE interrupts have the potential to really rack up the might/boons. I also love pDisenchanter and might swap that in place of pDefender, though that gives up a lot of survivability.

Thanks for providing us with a great build.

Exciting video to watch! Good job on the build! Looks impressive even without the might stacking while on cele.

jportell.2197:

MailMail.6534:

Threads like this is why Mesmer will always be an underwhelming class, and never see consistent play in top tier.

I feel we will never see that much play in top tier not because of threads like this, more so because of mesmers glaring weaknesses that Anet still hasn’t addressed.

I’m not sticking up for Anet, but it’s easy for them to use threads like this as a cop out to ignore these glaring issues. Gw2 is built on a casual gamer base. Most players aren’t that proficient at pvp, which is why a lot of people have issues with Mesmer.

I don’t like being in the downstate, so I tend to strike a careful balance between risk and reward, hence why I lean more towards condition builds. I don’t mind a longer battle that guarantees that I get the win. I’m this way with money irl as well, so it’s no surprise I’m like that in Heart of the Mists! If I am using a dps build with higher risk, I tend to incorporate Staff (CI Lockdown forever) which is a great hybrid weapon in its own right.

I think it’s too similar to Halting Strike to be honest with you, but it does sound cool.

However, I think instead of coming up with new skills, we should figure out how to improve the ones we already have. The only way I’d be down for new gms is if others are merged together (I’m looking at Shatter Conditions and Restorative Illusions) or DE becomes part of our mechanic.

Btw, Furious interruption should remove boon(s) with no ICD. Wouldn’t that be a great buff to an otherwise sucky trait?

Threads like this is why Mesmer will always be an underwhelming class, and never see consistent play in top tier.

Hey Alex heyyyyyyyyyy! <3 <3 <3

Thanks for your critique, Johnny, but I think it’s worth noting that there have been countless updates to the build. I don’t run Mender’s Purity anymore. In the last several posts, people have been trying out 2/6/2/0/4. Also, I tend to use sword over scepter. My current fav set up is 2/6/6/0/0, but I’ll be checking out the previous build soon as it opens up a different source of dmg. Not sure how much sustain you’d lose there though.

I think you’re incorrect when you mention this builds lack of viability in 1v1s. It is an excellent dueler. This is where it shines most, and is also one of its cons. Also, you mention signet heal’s comparatively low healing capabilities, but if I were taking a heal skill just for its healing powers, I wouldn’t be taking the signet now would I?

Looking forward to your build variant, Countless.

Since this thread has gone all the way to the left, I’ll just +1 the good posts!

Sebrent.3625:

MailMail.6534:

I have a build called “Hermetic Inscriptions”tm that incorporates Rune of Resistance (2/0/6/6/0), but I think it’s worth making another thread for it. This build is more of a support/tank build than anything else, which is a diversion from what this thread is about.

I don’t see Rune of Resistance being super helpful in an offensive build? Explain the logic to me and let’s have a discussion.

I agree, it is definitely a more defensive rune. Given that we can’t have anywhere near as much protection as we used to with our tanky builds, I’ve been trying to see how we can get back some tankiness. Hence why I was looking at this.

If you make that thread, I’ll definitely lurk there too ;-)

I’ll send you a link to the build. I’m trying to hold off until I can actually learn how to make videos. SIGH I’m just hardcore procrastinating. I don’t think our tanky builds are better than what some other classes can do, but it’s definitely interesting!

I think we’ve hit a wall where we can longer exchange information in a helpful matter. I remain resilient in my opinion that condi shatter can accomplish similar things as Power Shatter but at a much slower speed. I also stand firm in communicating my experiences that condi shatter performs better against the current cele meta.

I don’t think anyone has to say why Power Shatter is an amazing spec and easily one of our best, hence why there are no such threads. However, our power spec also has a lot of cons that make it hard to be successful. Pyro lays out why this is a fact by bringing up Mesmer [lack of] viability in a general sense.

I respect your opinion and thank you for your contribution to this thread, BlackDevil!

(This kinda goes for everything. The moment you take away 1 stun break skill and you use your only stun breaker to have mobility, you’ll find yourself in a team fight or a duel getting kitten d by the little CC someone can put out already. ).

Having one less stunbreak isn’t horrible on a build with more toughness. I disagree with you when you say the toughness vs healthpool isn’t very noticeable. Also, a good player will know when to use blink for mobility and when to save it for a stun break.

You take ultilities to win 1v1’s, rather than taking portal where mesmer shines. There’s no reason to have a mesmer if the mesmer doesn’t take portal. The discussion around it should rather be how to be the most effective while having portal blink and an optional ultility slot on your skill bar.

Taking Null field and pDisenchanter aren’t utilities just specialized towards 1v1s. They are VERY helpful for your team, and especially small scaled fights. Have you seen pDisenchanter in action? Portal is one of our best utilities by far, but I choose to focus more on the team fights than mobility here. I’ve never said that this build was better at mobility than dps mesmer. The burst on power and the velocity at which it can serve it is why it’s our best build.

The boon removal should not be more since you lack 1 clone (aka IP) per shatter. That’s 1 boon less removed per shatter and also the most reliable one. You fill that loss for 1 utility which has a 40 second cooldown. And let’s be honest, if this skill removes more than 2 boons per target you’re most likely fighting bad players or they are absolutly stun locked/ immob locked whereas null field is quite irrelevant since you should easily be able to take down such targets without null field.

Lol you count IP’s boon removal as consistent despite the fact that power mesmer needs to stay ranged? That’s the high risk high reward that comes with power. Yes, it’s reliable, but only when you’re in melee range, which is where power struggles the most. Null Field promotes point control and team support via condi clear. Either lose 5 boons or get off my point. There’s no denying that this is a win-win. pDisenchanter also removes a ton of boons at a high velocity. I think you underrate its effectiveness. Lastly, you must be more careful when shattering on power mesmer. With MtD, you have the ability to shatter more often.

The fact that you’re asuming power burst is based on ’’luck’’ already says quite enough to me

It’s called context. I was being cheeky when I said that. lol

Condition specs overall are more noob friendly and more effective when used against people who blow up all their condi removals from the getgo.

This is very true, but my argument is that with MtD, you force even good players to use their condi removals early in the fight as well.

This would make it more responsive and could lead to it being a true replacement for MoD.

This is an interesting discussion that I’ll get back to reading later, but THIS statement right here is why I think you’re getting a bit ahead of yourself in terms of wanting to buff the interrupt side of this skill. Sword 4 is NOT supposed to be our on-demand instant AOE interrupt. This is why we have MoD, and that shouldn’t exactly be infringed upon imho.

OH Sword is extremely underrated. The block’s attack dmg is extremely high. Yes, there’s issues with people dodging it, but that’s a discussion on our two blocks in general… Anyway, the CD is very low and it interrupts in a line. I actually think OH Sword is in a perfect state. Maybe some of the opinions above will change my mind though. Busy rekting people right now though.

I like this change. The stun always kind of confused me. This also makes wastrel’s punishment not as horrible as it currently is.

Thanks so much, Kemuri, for your contribution! I’m happy you have found something that seems to be working for you thus far. While I think this is a very strong build, Mesmer is one match up that tends to be very frustrating. I tend to falter here as well. This is probably because Malignant inscriptions is a single target-oriented condition build, and when Mesmers break target, it’s hard to get the fight back on track in your favor. I need to get in the OMFG arena and duel some guildies to get better. :/

I’m still rekting people with MtD on my birthday booster, but I’m excited to try out this 2/6/2/0/4 build. After reading the last several posts, it looks good! However, I’m so spoiled with having on-demand condition removal. Maybe I’ll update the first post with a summary of all the different builds we’ve come up with here so that it’s easy for people to see upon first glance.

Come back and let everyone know how you progress!

No shade to the OP’s mtd build, but obviously we disagree on which is superior… Wile, you should playtest my build instead of Messiah’s. http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtlqxQNcrNCrBh6rslfSyEEgSWhrB-TJRHwAC3fIZZABnCAAPBAA

Shout war: You shouldnt win 1v1 equally skilled with whatever you run. Shout warrior almost 1v1’s anything and power shatter most likely even has a better chance of winning than mtd.

THIS is what mtd kitten sucks against. 1v1 is near impossible, but I can say that I’ve beaten them before. However, this was after wasting a tremendous amount of time, and the point was in their favor (I still have noob moments from time to time give me a break!!). However in a team setting, you want the war to blow through his shouts. Mtd makes the cele meta exhaust their condi clear, which is without a doubt, their hard counter. And because Mtd can dish it out at such a high velocity, it puts the team fight in your corner after a period of time.

Engineer: Power benifits heavily here due that the way to win vs engies is to keep distance. You can’t keep distance with mtd or if you do, your damage will be quite kitten.

Well saying that a power mesmer has to keep distance is quite redundant, because a power mesmer ALWAYS has to keep distance in any team fight or 1v1 for most of the time. Mtd can safely get into melee range for a tiny bit for a shatter or Torment block, then get back out.

Your assertion that MtD ranged has kitten dmg is a bit disingenuous. I simply stand outside of turrets, let Staff Clones AA (very strong), switch to scepter for poison & Confusing Images, then switch back. It’s a very easy fight, especially if I get either two shatters or a torment block and 1 shatter off. In a team fight, Mtd does well here as well, because if you aren’t being focused, you have more opportunities to connect your shatters for AOE dmg. It literally only takes a few to make a cele engi wimper. Again, the fact that Mtd can do better in melee range AND from a distance is strong here.

D/P / S/D thieves: mtd should have a better chance of winning a pure 1v1, though same as medi guard they are very vurnable for unexpected bursts. Something that’s not able to accomplish with mtd. Power will be much better in team fights for this matter.

Again, it comes down to playstyle, but I don’t think power wins here in the team fight based solely on the fact that a power mesmer has to be baby sat. I made a post comparing the builds on the first page. It only takes one Shatter (of 3) to scare a thief out of the fight completely. And again, all of a MtD’s shatters are equally potent unlike with power. Power shatter, if you’re precise, can down him, but MtD does the same thing at a slower pace. The slower pace is a con, but you accept this for other pluses that power doesn’t have (toughness, Null Field, pDisenchanter team utilities).

D/D ele: Personal experience I’d say mtd would have a better chance, however, you can also kill a d/d ele on power. Power, again, better in team fights vs d/d eles.

Why is it better in a team fight again? Because you might get lucky (Dwayna protect you from that ele’s burn) and land a few bursts without going down first? idk how we got back on the topic of 1v1s yet again, but regardless, Mtd does better in team fights against cele ele for sure. See my response about Warrior above. Ele takes longer to down, but it’s inevitable. They definitely can’t really push you around like they would if you were power.

Condi necro: You certainly don’t wanna be close against condi necro’s and mtd will just kill yourself if they transfer it back to you.

Well I run NullField/Arcane & pDisenchanter, so if I know what I’m up against, I change my plastyle. Conditions are usually what beat me, because I tend to use my utilities for teammates or in an offensive way for boone strip.

tl:dr

Power wins on all forms of team fights but lacks on a few 1v1 situations where mtd shines. In a game where team fights are very important I would take power any day over mtd.

MtD can bring just as much team utility if not more than power. More boon removal. More team/self condi removal. More toughness (less baby-sitting). More flexibility in positioning (melee/range). Insane AOE condition pressure = enemy team exhausts clears early in fight. MtD is a slower yet safer route to victory. It is calculated. It’s patient. It is aggressively pernicious.

I’m drunk and have been busy throwing charity events all weekend, but I will say that I linked MY maim build when responding originally to some of the critiques in this thread. I thought I made this clear on more than one occasion.

Sebrent.3625:

Actually, I completely brain-farted and meant [Rune of Resistance] … the actual Rune that gives you Aegis when you activate a Signet.

[Rune of Resistance] is available in sPvP.

I have a build called “Hermetic Inscriptions”tm that incorporates Rune of Resistance (2/0/6/6/0), but I think it’s worth making another thread for it. This build is more of a support/tank build than anything else, which is a diversion from what this thread is about.

I don’t see Rune of Resistance being super helpful in an offensive build? Explain the logic to me and let’s have a discussion.

1v1’s are a huge part of tpvp, also my favorite part of it. And I think messiah made a horrible case why this build is great, the original post was a bunch of biased and one-sided fights.

Again, we can go toe to toe on why this build is a great dueler as well, but I think that would be slightly off topic. The fact is that duels shouldn’t be a common thing in tpvp if you’re doing it right. This will happen to your home-point guard at times and maybe a roamer assaulting far. My only point here is that condi shatter will typically have the advantage due to survivability. Long enough where support can come.

These are debatable, the rest I agree on. Power shatter can also drop stun breaks and take more team utility, condicleanse or boon removal. Also traits can vary like with the build variation you provided earlier.

Power shatter is VERY inflexible. The traits are not debatable in the current meta: 4/4/0/0/6 or gtfo. Utilities are pretty much similar. You take Portal/Blink/Decoy. If you’re not in a team, you have one space open for MoR. PDisenchanter is not advised here, and Null Field has a high CD and is less on demand. Again, condi builds can afford these utilities because they survive longer and are in less dire danger.

The profession forum section is full of people who live in their own bubble, don’t acknowledge optimal builds because they can’t play them

You say “optimal builds” as though there are many out there for Mesmer. LOL don’t kid yourself, darling! The fact is there is only one optimal build. It’s called dps shatter. Some would argue CI lockdown is one as well. I see potential in Maim though we haven’t seen enough results with it.

My home boy Sticker is spilling some hot bitter truth tea all over this thread!!

In addition, I think thieves are already underpowered, and for that reason I don’t agree that a change that specifically targets thieves should be made.

This is a horrible precedence for balance changes. Skills should work the way they are intended. PB does not work as is intended. I would have rather they gave Mesmers an entirely different gm than the one they got. It’s truly ridiculous.

Sadrien.3470:

This build is interesting, i tried a power s/p staff signet build and it worked ok but sacrificed a lot of utility for the signets. This condi / hyrbid build may work well i have yet to test… anyways I think that maim actually has a much higher teamfight potential because of the AoE torment and confusion on shatters, also you should consider undead runes, they are extremely strong

I’ve tried a dps version, and it simply does NOT work under any circumstance, because signets don’t really lend themselves to dps builds. The only way you could sneak power in there is with rampagers/carrion, but the former has stupidly weak stats and the latter doesn’t have crit and is suuuper squishy.

I’m a big proponent of both MtD and Signets, but I think overall, MtD is a lot more viable for reasons we don’t have to really go into here. Malignant Inscriptions specializes in “single-target” damage/lockdown via pDuelist and stuns leaving only Debilitating Dissipation for AOE dmg.

I’ve tried Undead Runes. It does increase the condi dmg, but I love krait runes too much. The bleeds are the highlight of this build for me. I also LOVE using MI offensively as a finisher. That AOE torment/poison/bleed is ~nasty~ especially right before your enemy tries to heal. Thanks a lot for your contribution. Try out some other variations and come back to share your thoughts!!

Thanks for that tag-in, pyro. #WorldWrestlingFederation I’ll tag back in now.

5 stacks of confusion during 3 seconds is not “burst” by any stretch of the imagination. I left nothing out.

And I’ll repeat, ~900 dmg on skill use may not be burst to you, but it eats people alive in team fights.

Maybe at the skill lvl you play and the kind of enemies you face, enemy actually using his/her brain is indeed imaginary.

Did someone just throw some major shade at me or am I just chilly? When I’m training one particular guild in pvp, I tend to face weaker enemies. Ironically, I lose more, because my teammates aren’t as good. When I’m with my pvp friends, we face very strong coordinated enemies. And I’m talking about 5 man teams vs 5 man teams. A lot of people tell me I’m “good” on my “cheesy PU builds” like this or my signet build (it amazes me that even mid tier players still equate PU with every condi Mes build). I would never be pompous enough to say such a thing about myself. I will, however, say that I do very well when I play with my pvp friends.

I was comparing situations where a player with torment and confusion recklessly attacks and moves to a situation where he does not.

And once again, I reiterate: when a person is not moving or recklessly attacking he’s still taking dmg from my other attacks AND allowing me to apply more torment/confusion on him when he’s finally ready to attack again.

I’d like to get this thread back on track, because it seems like these latest arguments are focusing a lot on ideal 1v1 fights. Let’s make another thread, and I’ll argue why MtD is also good there. But to be back on topic, I think messiah and others make a fantastic case why MtD is great in tpvp.

Like I mentioned before, Condi shatter does similar things that dps shatter does both offensively and defensively, but at wildly different velocities. Here’s some comparisons between the two.

• Dps has a much higher burst overall. There’s more build up for condi shatters. You can turn the tide of a fight much quicker with dps. You can with condi as well, but slower.
• You’re less susceptible to conditions and outright dmg with condi shatter. God forbid an ele burns you on dps shatter. LOL gg
• Slightly more on-point fighting capabilities with condi shatter.
• More utility to support allies with condi shatter (pDisenchanter, Null Field, blasting Chaos armor with Prestige, etc). You can even take portal.
• Less on demand safety with Distrotion due to no Illusionary Person.
• During 1v1s, you can add just as much pressure as dps shatter overall, but with less risk of getting ganked, allowing teammates to come support you.
• More boon rip potential via utilities. You shatter more often with condi shatter, so you’re ripping more boons over a period of time.

The confusion is really just an incidental bit of bonus damage. Consider it an idiot tax.

How I’ll be referring to confusion in my MtD builds from now on. Thanks! \(^_^)/

skcamow.3527:

MailMail.6534:

Stream more or RIOT.

Of late, he’s been streaming quite a bit. I don’t see YOU on there tho :P

My guilt tripping has failed. I can’t handle that truth tea. I’m busy planning a charity event, so I haven’t been on streams as much lately. Any free time I get, I’m smashing faces myself in pvp.

I disagree Zenith. Interrupting in PvE is insanely easy. I do it all the time without even trying when I’m playing the Living Story. Their attacks are really slow.

I think the skill has to remain interrupt-based, because of its name. As much as I’d like to believe Anet would scrap a trait, that’s wishful thinking on my part. I think the suggestions made here are good for making it an interrupt trait worthy of taking.

Those skills do sound interesting. I think healing through distortion isn’t gm worthy considering we only have 2 different ways to do it, one requiring a 4 point trait in Dueling, not taking DE AND the use of signets, and the other being a shatter on a 46s cd at best.

Stream more or RIOT.

The blink buff gets better and better and better! I need to get back on my Malignant Inscriptions build so I can use sword there! haha

StickerHappy.8052:

How can you have 3 staff clones for 5 secs, if you play a shatter build? so might as well do a regular condi build without MtD if you say standing still will kill me?

I think you’re confused about how MtD works. Here’s the general strategy:

Staff:

• Use AA clones to rack up dmg and buff allies.
• Dmg mitigation from enemy burst attacks (chaos armor, chaos storm and more chaos armor)
• Shatter sparingly. It’s like the sprinkles on top of the sundae that is your auto attack.

Scepter/Torch:

• Shatter shatter shatter
• If an opening arises, use Confusing Images. Pray to Lyssa that it connects.
• Summon pMage. Pray to Lyssa harder that it connects. Shatter that kitten anyway.
• Switch back to Staff ASAP!!!

StickerHappy.8052:

I agree with everything you said. 5 stacks in 3 seconds is a joke. Prybar is 5 stacks with 1 hit. easier to land, and hard to avoid too because it looks like a normal wrench AA.

And dude you should clarify this fact:

The majority of our confusion sources are unreliable vs other classes’ application

Idk how this turned into comparing our confusion capabilities to other classes, because that’s a moot point and Off Topic. Our confusion application is horrible. Everyone knows that. The point is, confusion in a MtD build IS decent. I have shatter confusion at 5.5 seconds doing 171/skill/stack. That’s nothing to scoff at.

I dueled a lot of MtD mesmers in the past,key to torment and confusion? stand still, since they are using rabid, everything hits like a wet noodle.

Ok, and while you’re sitting there, I’ll just keep throwing conditions at you. So are you going to sit still the entire match or nah? I mean, that’s cool with me. But when do you exactly attack? lol Oh wait, you’ve been sitting still so long that Staff AA burns/bleeds have downed you. I really don’t understand this argument. Standing still mitigates a lot of dmg from torment, but judging a build based purely off of duels is a VERY short sighted form of theory crafting.

Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well!Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well!

First off, if you’re dueling and creating a build to counter someone else, then it’s like ok what’s the point? I might as well put a settler’s rune on me. Second, not many Mesmer run AT, so you won’t encounter this often during queues. Lastly, I DO run AT somewhat often so AT vs AT. Get at me.

Necro vs Mes? Flip the condies back.

This can be scary, but isn’t the worst thing ever if you know you’re facing a Necro. lol Necros don’t have a lot of boons necessary to rip with Null/AT+pDisenchanter (which is what I run), so I usually save these for condi clear instead of boon rip. Not a problem.

Ranger vs Mes? Pew pew in range and kite.

Omg so you’re actually not going to stand still and not attack?! It only takes one shatter to make a Pew Pew Ranger shrivel up and get scared. MI, Prestige and Blink ensure that you can get in close enough to do some dmg. This is a pretty interesting fight though. Ranger has better chance against this if he’s condi.

So yeah, are you talking about purely duels, Sticker, because that’s a whole other ball game, and also a place that MtD can shine in against MANY classes/builds.

Ok first I wouldn’t call 5 stacks of confusion applied slowly in 3 seconds a burst, it’s horrible. Even better the skill gets easily canceled if you’re not facing the enemy properly + the LAZOR animation is clearly visible and therefore easy to counter.

I dislike it when people leave out certain parts of a quote that gives context to a statement. You did exactly this in order to somehow prove a point that scepter has issues as a weapon which is something I haven’t even disagreed about. Bolded is the part you left out.

If you’re in a team fight not being focused, do NOT underestimate the burst on Confusing Images, because it rekts. Scepter isn’t a great weapon but it works great in this build.

If you aren’t being focused in a team fight and you have time to cast Confusing Images, ~900 confusing dmg on skill use is nothing to be underestimated. I stand my ground here.

Let’s imagine a situation where you’ve successfully bursted someone with for example 6 stacks of torment and 9 confusion… what does a decent enemy do in this situation? Does he keep autoattacking and running? Answer: he knows you’ve just spent your main burst, you don’t have clones up, he would stop and condicleanse before doing anything else. If he doesn’t have condicleanse he would possibly wait for the 9 stacks of confusion to go away since the duration is really short.

Ok, so here’s one fundamental thing you’re forgetting about MtD “burst”: you have access to more than 1 burst. Let’s look at our “burst” skills in MtD:

• F1
• F2 (this is arguably our “burst”)
• F3 (but wait, this procs a lot of vuln as well, which adds up; maybe this is our burst!)
• Scepter 2 (8s CD for 8.5k max @ 10s? enough said)
• Scepter 3 (generally unreliable, but not to be underestimated)
• Multiple Clones Staff AA-ing

So no, while your enemy is twiddling his thumbs wasting his time not attacking, it’s giving me time to set up another one of my bursts. I mean, do you think that after I burst him, I’m just staring at him not doing anything? lol And if he stops and condi clears, that’s exactly what I want him to do, because I have more conditions coming right at him soon enough. Also, I speak for myself when I say the duration on torment is not short. My torment lasts 8 seconds. If enemy waits this period out, that’s long enough for another Phase Retreat, Scepter 2 AND a dodge.

More over, let’s say that silly situation happens for whatever reason. You have stealth, Blink, chaos armor and chaos storm to mitigate any counter this imaginary enemy has up his sleeves after not playing the game for 8 seconds waiting for conditions to clear.

The scenario above that you imagined in order to make MtD seem disadvantaged is simply that: imaginary.

The damage difference between two cases is HUGE, that is why I listed torment and confusion as unreliable.

Comparing to dps shatter? Why exactly are we comparing them? That’s counter productive. I think it goes without saying that they do very similar things offensively/defensively at insanely different velocities.

Idk how you play power but gs melee shatter has the potential to instantly kill a zerk player from full hp. Sure you can (and you should) shoot beams and drop izerkers from distance but the main burst is melee range => that’s why I said it’s more or less a melee weapon

This is a good point. I’ve seen people get real kitteny and get all up in the face of a Mesmer using GS. That’s usually the way to counter GS, but the Mirror Blade —> Shatter combo is VERY dangerous and can be instant kill like you suggest. I guess in a way, you’re right. My opinion however is that more often than not, you will do better ranged on GS. The animation on Mirror Blade is obvious, and I would be expecting a shatter burst.

It’s hard enough getting 3 clones out and having them connect. With everything getting scaled down to accommodate the 4th clone, I don’t think it would be worth it. Plus, that’s just 1 more thing messing up my screen vision. lol

I never even thought about this. lol Wow PB gets worse and worse doesn’kitten

Now for the other poster here who needs some feedback.

Cons:
- Lack of boon removal on shatter
- Lack of shatter on self which gives so much flexibility
- Long cooldowns on torch
- You die of old age while waiting for scepter animations
- Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking
Overall looks like the build is alright, but not great.

There’s a lot of debate on which variation of MtD is the best. I think messiah and I have been through this, but I prefer my “dominatrix” version. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtlqxQNcrNCrBh6rslfSyEEgSWhrB-TJRHwAC3fIZZABnCAAPBAA I often switch between NullField/Arcane Thievery depending on enemy composition. I rarely switch crippling dissipation for rendering shatter if I think AOE will kill too many clones (I’ve only found this to be a problem with a lot of dps guards on enemy team), but I honestly don’t have many issues with this, because I know how to shatter. lol This, however, can be argued as the weakest point of my build compared to other MtD builds going into Chaos.

You stop enemies from having any boons ever. The long CD on torch doesn’t matter. Prestige is used to set up other shatters, heal or simply get better position while the conditions tick. pMage is shatter fodder. If one of his attacks hits, thank Lyssa for her blessing of luck and move on.

In terms of scepter, you shouldn’t be on it longer than the cd for switching weapons. It’s purely to shatter. Staff is when you shatter a bit slower and let your cloens AA them to death. If you’re in a team fight not being focused, do NOT underestimate the burst on Confusing Images, because it rekts. Scepter isn’t a great weapon but it works great in this build.

Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking

I’m trying to be respectful here, but this is a very foolish thing to count as a “con”. It’s not just you, but many people have said this, so maybe I’m just frustrated hearing this ridiculous statement. Let me ask you a question: if a player isn’t moving and a player isn’t using any skills, in what state is he most likely in? No no, not the downstate darling, he’s probably dead.

Rhetorical questions aside, confusion/torment is a soft lockdown that is HIGHLY effective in the right hands. It’s really the most polite way to kill your opponent, because you’re giving them the choice on how they’d like to die. Either they smash keys and kill themselves (warriors, rangers and thieves) or they sit there not doing anything. The latter essentially means you’re you’ve locked an opponent down to the point where you can temporarily +1 a fight or get extra dmg off of him via another player. Please explain to me how this isn’t a pro, because I’m confused now.

Also as a side note: power gs is more or less a melee weapon

This is just factually wrong. GS’ AA attack encourages the player to be further away to do more damage. The knockback on GS5 essentially screams “GET OUT OF MELEE RANGE”. The cripple on pBerserker synergies with keeping enemies at bay and unable to reach melee range in the first place. So there’s nothing really Melee about GS except for maybe Mirror Blade.

What still gets me all worked up is still the fights against thieves, but until ANet do something about it, I just have to accept the situation as is.

Thief vs dps shatter is a 90% lose rate. Thief versus mtd is only 60%. And because most thieves are bad, you really won’t have trouble with them once you get used to the build! This is th eonly match up besides dps guardian where you have to really time your shatters perfectly. Some exmaples against thief:

• Scepter 2 block —> shatter
• Scepter 2 block —> dodge —> shatter: if you’re feeling spunky and think it’ll connect.
• pWarlock —> dodge toward thief and past them —> Phase Retreat —> shatter: this will create clones staggered in a straight line and make it harder for thief to dodge all of the clones. This usually works as an opener against most classes btw.
• Phase retreat in melee range —> Shatter

Basically, you want to shatter when the thief doesn’t have much opportunity to evade or when he’s trying to burst you. Don’t just summon clones and then have them run a mile towards him in order to shatter, because less of your shatters will connect.

Honestly, after playing my MtD build for a few months, I can’t remember many times where a thief beat me 1v1. I think it was a condi thief though. Group fights are even better, because the thief will waste their time trying to burst you and be surprised to get a nasty condi burst in return, putting him out of the fight completely for a temporary amount of time. Now you can +1 the team fight!

Daniel Handler.4816:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Not quite BlackDevil, it was advertised to locks all skills except 1 and stun breakers. Its slightly different from forced attacks. Opponents still have the choice to sit through confusion or use stun breaker (which deals confusion damage unless stun breaker is tied to condi removal). It does, however, advertised to cause opponent to run towards you so torment still synergize well with taunt.

Any videos on taunt yet :P?

This is new info to me. Thanks.

I thought everything was locked and your 1 skill was spammed. We’ll have to look back and see again to see what the official statement is. Ideally, this would make MtD builds utilizing taunt very strong.

blakdoxa.7520:

There’s just something off when you have shatter or shatter-related traits in a line that’s supposed to benefit phantasms.

I think we should start with new minor traits for inspiration before we go after Disruptor’s Sustainment…

Minor traits are actually “good”. Medic’s Feedback, Glamour Mastery, Mender’s Purity, Vigorous Revelation and Persisting Images all have niche uses that make them integral to certain builds. This is especially the case in a variety of tank and/or support builds. Mender’s purity being the exception as it’s really good in most builds. Due to needing to be in combat, I find Compounding Celerity to be the only trait awful in all situations.

Disrupter’s Sustainment is absolutely awful. I wonder what the data is of people using it… I like the idea of an AOE burst of healing on interrupt. Concept is there, but follow through is absolutely atrocious. I’m embarrassed for the person who OK’ed this trait.

rainisword.7860:

Coulter.2315:

rainisword.7860:

Coulter.2315:

rainisword.7860:

Mak.2657:

rainisword.7860:

Mesmers can trash thieves in general. It just takes a really really good mesmer. S/D is only hard because landing a burst is super hard since they evade 50% of the time and landing a well timed burst on a good player in general is usually tricky. d/p can get really trashed by a mesmer if you break their stealth. If it were pure dueling, mesmer would win most of the time if they were using CI

Good(!) d/p thief beats good mesmer (CI too) IMO. D/p aware of lockdown mesmer would’t use easy interruptible blackpowder+hearseeker combo too much. Blind and damage spam through shadow shot + positioning behind mesmer back (for harder blind cleanse through AA) + dodging + LoS + active shortbow use + roots through panic strike and surpise shot + good auto and frequent sigils procs + good use of stolen stability = fight in thief favor. It is true that mesm have more chances against d\p then sw\d, but still thief has upper hand.
Ppl just don’t meet lockdown mesmer often, so still not adapted to fight him in general, but it matter of practice.
Thief has lesser weapon coodowns (if assume iniative is global weapon CD), i.e. more frequent use of burst/pressure

LOL what a joke. Again, D/P is done as soon as its stealth is broken. The matchup is very much in favor of the mesmer because of how easy it is to interrupt them and because of how predictable the d/p rotation is and how easy it is to interrupt with how many you already have.

Are you trying to Powder/HS next to the Mesmer by chance? xD

I main mesmer so im telling you that d/p is trashed easily by CI because its true lol. Go to a dueling arena and watch some CI vs d/p fights if you can to educate yourself.

He just told me to go to a dueling arena xD

Because you clearly don’t understand the matchup lol.

The fact is that when player skill is equal, the thief still has a significant advantage against dps Mesmer builds. Whenever a thief loses against a dps Mesmer, it’s because they’re a WORSE player or the Mesmer is just leagues better than him. Same thing.

The point in all of this is that there shouldn’t be matchups like Mes vs Thief where it’s such a huge disparity in odds in favor of one profession. Every build has counters, but one profession shouldn’t HARD counter an entire group of builds so strongly.

I’ve only found Confusion to be of any impact in my MtD build here: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtlqxQNcrNCrBh6rslfSyEEgSWhrB-TJRHwAC3fIZZABnCAAPBAA

This is because my confusion duration is at 7.25 (pMage lol), 12.5 (Confusing Images) and 5.5 (shatters & chaos armour) seconds. I get people killing themselves all the time. Especially rangers and thieves smashing their face against the keyboard.

Outside of this, confusion has never been anything worthy of comment. I cosign just about everything Fay has said here. It’s sad. Honestly, there’s been debates on our forum on how they should buff confusion for Mesmer, but I think it’s really easy: just buff the base duration to 4.5 seconds and change Confusing Enchantments to 5s (leading to an actual duration of 6s). That allows us to stack confusion without having to devote as much effort.

Rome.7124:

never try a condi memser build before, so I am looking forward to try this out tonight

But regardless which build, it seems thief will always be a counter. It seems this build has an advantage over shatter build in going against the meta builds of the other popular classes, which I guess that’s the main selling point, right?

Exactly. These builds allow you to take a lot of boon rip, which is the bane to a lot of the popular meta builds. And the constant sustained condition pressure overrides their defense against burst dmg mitigation.

Maim does well against most builds except for cele warrior, but the cele war won’t be able to kill you either so that’s why you have a team to help you with him. Thief is always difficult, but if you can get one good Cry of Frustration burst off without them clearing it (always save this for your last shatter against thieves), that usually scares them into defense immediately.

Fay.2357:

MailMail.6534:

I made a few changes here that might make this unique little boy a bit more workable for what you’re trying to do here.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsfRl0npMtNqxENcrNCrxc6kK6ISOQAlMkrB-TJBFwAy3fgwhAoaZAAPBAA

So the main caveat with this build (and the reason that nobody ever does this) is that restorative illusions is an awful heal without IP. With IP… it’s quite strong. That produces the obvious problem of needing IP to make the RI trait even remotely useful, but that means you can’t take DE. This dilemma is why nobody ever takes RI.

Now, that same trait spread can be used to take shattered conditions, and that shatter build gets run from time to time. It’s still got pretty solid damage output, but has excellent condition removal.

You’re totally right. RI is a trash gm trait to begin with and really isn’t the most effective thing to ever take under… any circumstances. Discussion on how awful the Inspiration gm traits are happened here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Disruptor-s-Susta-How-to-make-it-appealing/first#post4786083

I suggest they combine RI and SC into one shatter trait that is defined by “Inspiration”. This would make room for a glamour or phantasm gm. It would also give way to a possible rework of the interrupt gm. I have dreams…

Carighan.6758:

The problem with this would be how variable our Phantasm power is. In a full Phantasm spec, you’d have 30% more damage, 70% more health, 20% faster CDs, you pulse regeneration and passive Fury. Good luck balancing that one.

I don’t see how this is more intense than Lich Form. At least they get pulsing stability. In order to balance it, the cast time should be at least 1.5 seconds (if not 2 considering pDisenchanter is at 1.5 already) and the CD should be 210. Also, how would the 70% health be worked out once you are transformed?

GS 2, Sword 3, Scepter 2 and Staff 2 would be changed to the equipped phantasm attack which should all have a CD of 10s without phatasmal haste. DE would also be disabled on dodge. Other attacks would remain the same. I just imagined performing pMage’s attack as a transformation. lawl

I made a few changes here that might make this unique little boy a bit more workable for what you’re trying to do here. Essentially, this is a shatter build that hits a lot slower. There’s a ton of ability to survive with Decoy/Blink/Frenzy/Torch/RI/RM. Before, half of your shatters (Cry/Diversion) were pretty subpar, but going into Domination gives all of your shatters some importance.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsfRl0npMtNqxENcrNCrxc6kK6ISOQAlMkrB-TJBFwAy3fgwhAoaZAAPBAA

Some tips on how to make this work:

• Use your stealth to charge mantras.
• Make sure to time shatters carefully, because they are all on much longer CDs than what is normal in a shatter build. I took the increased dmg on Mind Wrack, because that’s really your best shot at downing someone.
• Sword CD means more dmg mitigation and output via Frenzy. It also means you have more chances to land shatters via ileap.

Essentially, I think your traiting is not conducive to really carrying out any role effectively. I think this build maintains the niche use of Restorative Illusions while also being able to actually land some potentially nice bursts at the same time. It’s definitely a lot slower though.

I’m getting ready to get in bed soon. I can’t wait to check these vids out. You’re a big proponent of the MtD build. I appreciate your previous videos!

MAIM THE META!

I’m glad you weren’t too harsh in your reception of this build, Ross! While a lot is to be said about the viability of signets on their on… when traited for, they become very viable for mid tier game play in my opinion.

Thanks for yet another take on the signet build, alanis. I’ve always kind of wanted to use the reflect on distortion trait. However it makes this build much more offensive than defensive due to not being able to go deeper into Chaos, which scares me considering that condi builds need to be able to survive long enough to let your conditions do damage.

What are your opinions on “classic” 2/6/6/0/0 (or 2/6/4/2/0) varieties vs the use of masterful reflection? pDisenchanter is amazingly good, especially in small scale fights where it REKTS, but I like the idea of having on demand condi clear when I need it. I might take 2 from Illusions and put it towards Mender’s or even the Signet clear. But again, this takes away a lot of dmg (bounces from Staff AA as well as increased condi dmg) and clone generation (Illusionist Celerity).