Guild Wars 2

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

It’s a shame really…mesmers are forced into a hit n’ run meta because we need to invest on extreme stats to deal reasonable damage as oppose to others, then they remove the run part.

Maybe they can buff illusion health to improve our effectiveness in teamfight?

lol

I don’t mind hit and run, but when our hard-counter is an assassin class that will hunt us down and now the removal of vertical ports so we have no chance to juke off thieves it leaves me wondering how on earth are we gonna be viable?
Also in a side thought. How kittening strong is LB rangers going to become :P

Saturn.6591:

Quadox.7834:

Almost all teleport spots, yeah. For example on legacy graveyard you will be able to teleport to the tier 2 ledge but NOT the tier 3 ledge

Ehhh… which ones of those described in the following link would that be? xD

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Guide:Phase_Retreat_-_Legacy_of_the_Foefire

If it’s the same as the last time they were doing it, and according the way people are speaking it would effect pretty much all the foefire spots.

Quadox.7834:

Almost all teleport spots, yeah. For example on legacy graveyard you will be able to teleport to the tier 2 ledge but NOT the tier 3 ledge

Ahh in this case there must be a vertical range max of around 400 or so perhaps? Can you go from the second to the top?

Fay.2357:

One thing to note is that this won’t hit only mesmers. A change like this will produce a massive outcry from thieves, eles, and to a lesser extent necros as well. This doesn’t make it any less of a slap to the face to us, but it does mean that other classes will be clamoring for it to be removed as well.

This is the case for sure, whether or not anet listens is another thing. The reason I’m so worried about Mesmer (and necro) especially is how much the really on vertical jukes and positioning as there main form of survivability. D/D bruisers and thieves use it moreso for mobility and gap closers, while this is a nerf for them as well, I dont think it will effect there viability nearly as hard.

Tbf, a bad Mesmer on your team is beyond horrible. Less bad players trying to play thief/mes in ranked for the first time isn’t exactly a bad thing.

phokus.8934:

Vertical porting isn’t being completely removed. Just some spots are not going to be able to be ported to. What/where this means seems to be up in the air and will really be a “wait and see”.

One thing’s for sure – if our mobility does go down, we’re going to be hurting quite a bit.

Either way it will hurt us, and I’m hoping it is only specific areas. but remember early in the game anet removed almost all vertical sports before undoing the nerf a week later due to all the bugs popping up. If it’s to the scale they did it last time, this is one hell of a nerf incoming.

This is more rumor then anything, but from a worryingly reliable source. Apparently those few lucky enough to have play tested a small demo of a few HoT changes have reported that PvP teleporting spots have been removed aka: vertical teleports will no longer work.
This, if it was to go ahead, would be the single biggest kick in the balls anet have delivered to us thus far. Juking targets with vertical ports is about one of the few things that really let an exceptional Mesmer compete at a high level, not only that but it feels like our survivable has been balanced around this mechanic for the past 2 years.
Here’s a couple of threads discussing the subject, and as mentioned in them, the change could completely kill of upper mid/high tier Mesmers and even necros.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Port-Changes-Coming-Tomorrow
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/HoT-Demo-Possible-bad-news-for-thieves

Hlord.5940:

speaking of nerf, was illusion skills ever require 3/4-1 sec cast time?
has the mesmer’s clone have more health in the the beginning?
has the phantasm skill do more damage in the beginning?
because i ran phantasm build and i found that phantasm do sub par damage and took too long to cast while other class have near to instance activation time

Signet of illusions was bugged for a long time and gave 300% extra illusion health. It has since been fixed so is now only 50% extra health. A pretty substantial nerf/fix to phantasm builds.
Funfact: The signet works with rockdog/parrot as well :]

WTS finals, 20 players, all classes represented…. except Mesmer. This thread has never been more relevant.

Abjured certainly. Would be vicariously happy with a Dankening win though.

Out of all the things to complain about Mesmer, our burst damage is certainly not one of them.

I like the idea, but what happens in the case of me wanting to play with a newer player or friends in a different tier? Are players able to temporarily drop tiers etc? (Sorry if you’ve covered this, I skim read)

Edit: Nevermind, you weren’t taking tiers into consideration for matchmaking right?

I fighted this guy once. After I died from a scepter backstab I noticed it was actually 4 thieves with the same name all running around. He is actually really bad and had to get 3 pother friends to make the same name and all look the same to kill me

Saiyan.1704:

Neptune.2570:

As for a quick LB fix, why not just add a MMR column to the current pvp leaderboard and allow people to view a descended order of the top 1k MMR’s as well? MMR on the leaderboard will have a false decay but doesnt actually change your ingame MMR for matchmaking from not playing.
Seems this would keep all parties happy and people can see who the ‘top players’ are by there own judging standards.

That would cause an array of issues, mostly just dramatize the forums and tpvp in general. People will simply look at top MMR and consider that the new Leaderboards. The actual Rank Number on the left will be invisible to everyone.
You will get the top rank 50 people on the leaderboard complaining why they have low MMR. Next to that forum post, you’ll see another thread about very high MMR players being on the bottom of the leaderboard.

It’s all one leaderboard, just different ways of looking at it. Top 50 points player complaining he has low MMR? Tell him to practice duels, get better, and get used to playing with an organised team. Top MMR players complaining there not at the top of the games played list? Tell them to play more and spend there day soloqing.
Hell, if that dramatizes people then those people are not gonna be happy no matter what. That’s just dramatic people. Lol.

As for a quick LB fix, why not just add a MMR column to the current pvp leaderboard and allow people to view a descended order of the top 1k MMR’s as well? MMR on the leaderboard will have a false decay but doesnt actually change your ingame MMR for matchmaking from not playing.
Seems this would keep all parties happy and people can see who the ‘top players’ are by there own judging standards.

Ohk just properly looked at your build, here’s a couple of tweaks. Use doom on staff, if cele sustain is too much why not cut it by 33% :P. Staff with 3 clones + DD triggers is more dps then you’d think. Cele engis cant really afford to cleanse on a few bleed stacks so it adds up. There will of course be times, when moving into S/S for more dps is right. Really depends on reading the situation. as for the Ip problem, well that’s just an inherant problem regardless. There really is no counterplay to IP.

Isn’t too hard of a matchup imo, easier and more predictable then static discharge engis when playing CI. There’s a few plays to beat em.

• Keep distance – Nades are easy as hell to kite, particularly if you have trav runes. Keep moving and darting in and out, so long as them chill nades dont get ya you’re sweet.

• Interrupt – He’s most vulnerable vs you with his Rifle out. Use a cheap daze (s4) to rupt his painfully slow AA to lock him in place. Cele engis only have one option to cleanse the immob, and that’s to use there heal rotation. Jump shot (r5) is part of that, leaping through his water field and doing large dps. If his turret goes down watch for it to deny him his heal+large dps spike and reapply the immob staight back on.

• Avoid – Magnet pull. At all costs. if you see a green line following from the engi to you. Interrupt. If he stealths, swap to staff and phase retreat ready the second your pulled. If your stuck in s/s blink or distort. Most cele engis use this as there burst by stealthing > pull > nails+pry bar+toolbelt nades then into instant cast rifle cc’s. If they land there magnet pull its gg.

Spend most the fight in staff, unless you have him under enough control to swap, staff will let you keep your distance (all his danger skills need close range) and will wear him down hugely with his lack of condi cleanse.

Chaith.8256:

Doom is most effective against Eles/Wars/Engineers who have stacked multiple sources of sustain (traits, regen, highly effective healing abilities).

Energy is an extremely vital must-have to the Mesmer, Condi Necro, and often not utilized by Ele/Engi/War, with some exceptions.

Shaving Doom and shaving Energy would probably only solidify the status quo more.

This is a solid point actually, these sigils do seem to give overly strong effects in comparison, but taking them out would only harm the classes outside the meta.

Best way to see it is Mesmers are not a ‘pet class’ but illusions are our ‘resource’ for more powerful abilities. Don’t want to loose the resource you spent on your target? blow it up first for AOE damage.

Oooooooooh snap, so thats whats causing it?
I thought I was going crazy.

Amir.1570:

Neptune.2570:

Thief is the single, undisputed, hardest class to make effective at high tier pvp. Fact.

Fixed.

If by hard you mean baiting dodges with Phantasms and then instant-cast shattering people after they don’t have anymore endurance while spamming evades and invuln as you do so is hard then it just shows how much you know.

Ranger is easier than Mesmer, but Mesmer is still pretty easy. There are harder specs in this game, specs that take real skill. Even Thief is more skill-based than Mesmer really but I guess it’s just hard to understand that just because you play a Mesmer.

Actually I’m a multiclasser who happens to have adapted a special soft spot for Mesmer, probably because i’m a slight masochist
And all this coming from a self confessed and well non anti mesmer troll, who refuses to play one at a significant level of pvp for any level of time.

I do with we’re closer to the bottom of the barrel, but I personally feel that the issue isn’t to do with the state of Mesmer itself. Bunkers, of which we rely on for our sustain aren’t viable to support us as there outshined completely by cele bruisers. everyone runs cele meaning every player can give condi pressure, a huge weakness for mesmers. Our biggest counter, S/D thief, has ruled PvP for almost a year now, and of course, as mentioned, Mesmer simply takes a huge amount of skill and co-ordination to work in comparison to other classes.
I believe we will be viable again, just nerf cele and S/D thiefes plz

Honestly… halting is awesome. In zerk ammy it crits for rougly 2.5k, can trigger air+fire and has no icd. Can be a brutal spike with a strung out diversion.

Highest halting I’ve managed was almost 4k, with might stacks on a squishy…… it can seriously be deadly.

I actually think that looks kittenin awesome… then again, I am a mesmer main.

Grouch has played pvp since forever, and from vsing him on the occasion he actually seems like a decent engi too. Recently Hugh has been in pvp pretty much every time i’ve logged into Hotm.

Ahahahaha 10/10… this fred… so gud.
Just on the odd chance anyone isnt trolling or new players are looking for a ‘faceroll’ class. Mesmer is the single, undisputed, hardest class to make effective at high tier pvp. Fact.

infantrydiv.1620:

For brand new players (listed in order of easiest to hardest):

1. Turret Engineer
2. Ranger/Warrior
3. Necro
4. DPS Guardian
5. Other Engineer specs
6. Elementalist
7. Mesmer
8. Thief

For players who already know the game decently well mechanically/rotationally (easiest to multiclass and be effective high tier):

1. Warrior
2. Engineer
3. Elementalist
4. DPS Guardian
5. Ranger
6. Necro
7. Thief
8. Mesmer

This is pretty close to how I’d put it tbh.

Ranger: Fun class to play, particularly S/D condi bunkers, but god I hate fighting them.
Assuming equal skill, condi ranger is about 40% power ranger 75%
Rangers have so many ways to ez kill mesmers. If you meet a ranger that can actually handle his pet this is seriously a thuggin hard match up. Don’t Ignore the pet, watch out for the leap (2 second KD) and the fear, both have very obvious animation tells. If it’s a condi ranger do not get on a point with him, not even to burst, keep loSing him, if he hits entangle on you it’s GG. Power ranger is the opposite, keep em cc’d, keep em close, be aggressive and keep behind him to keep triggering cancel of his lb skills.

Thief – “Oh kitten off man” xD I love playing thief, I love hunting Mesmers as a thief, its hilarious, but yeh, vsing a good S/D thief as a shatter Mes is one of the most fustrating things in this game.
Odds of winning, shatter vs d/p 40% lockdown vs d/p 60%, shatter vs S/D 25% lockdown vs S/D 45%
Strat vs D/P rupt once he black powders, that HS/stealth is coming and rupting gives revealed + uses his init for both BP and HS and will trigger halting, lots of options to quickly burst a D/P before he gets you, be aggressive. Chaos storm/armor is godly in this match up.
S/D, I dont even know… lol… Baiting out a LS by letting him hit flanking then grab a quick cc on him, avoid his opening at all costs panic strike/basilisk procs will be your death.

Necro – Not the biggest fan of necro’s tbh, very unpredictable in player skill (probably much like Mesmers) Dislike playing as one, vsing one is hella fun if your playing lockdown though. The necro is always my primary target, and should always be your teams primary target too. Too much of a game changer to be left unchecked.
Odds of winning vs condi 60%(if he gets the jump on me its either gtfo or die, but its a bit easier for me to get the jump on him usually)
Power 80%
Is an odd one to fight, kite away, LoS his DS, obvious animations, avoid the black hands! Dark path is killa, dont let him get close enough to instant cast his doom. Once his DS is down he is ez mode, keep your cc’s for his painfully obvious heal and play aggresivelly for the next 6 or so seconds till you know DS will be back up.

Warrior – I actually don’t mind fighting warriors, it really worth assaulting there capture point 1v1 vs a shoutbow, but some warriors are hilarious to fight (especially the ones the chase you round the map spamming GS/hammer skills while im trying to play in fits of laughter)
Condi – 45%
Shoutbow – 60%
Hambow – 80%
Zerker GS – 60%
Talking shoutbow, as thats pretty much what everyones running these days, avoid pindown at all costs, save your dodges for it. CC’s are the way to take down shoutbows, no stunbreaks/stab make em not a bad target in larger team fights as well. in 1v1’s use LoS and kiting, its a slow painful fight but they have obvious tells, avoid there burst skills, avoid pindown and avoid final thrust it should be a slow, but easy fight.

Edit sorry for the novel… how did that even get to be that long of a post?

TL;DR: Bunch of crap about things and stuff

Elementalist – Elez r gr8 I love them. D/D cele does need a slight tone down, even though it’s not a hard match up for mes. But really notice it when playing it or fighting one on an alt.
First the I think is “Oh goody”, I back myself to take a D/D down before he gets his heal rotations off.
Odds of winning, considering reasonably close MMR/skill, would be 85%, as long as I don’t get impatient and try to contest the point.
Ideal strategy is boon stripping the regen/protection, keep em clear of those, burst as soon as he’s out of water, that’s your opening. If he bruning speed’s in he’s likely to firegrab, interrupt/avoid that at all costs and you should be good. Also, stay out of drakes breath (not hard to do)

Engineer – Hope to god there turrets/cele rifle/zerker. Condi engies are a kitten pain when doom/IP/torment etc passively proc off a bleed AA. I enjoy playing engi a lot, enjoy fighting em even more when things are going your way
Odds of winning, Turrets: 90% Cele Rifle: 85% Zerker: 85% Condi: 45%
Ideal stategy… range the kitten out of em. Keep em cc rolled and keep moving to avoid nades, avoid magnet pull at all costs (the green line that connects to you and pulls after 3 seconds) or if they stealth, blur/dodge if sword after 2 secs, have phase retreat ready to instant port back if staff. Dont let em get close with rifle and your fine.

Guardian – Eh, not the biggest fan of fighting guards. Def not a fan of playing them either.
First thing to look for is there weapon set, quickly identify if there medi or not (90% chance they are in this meta).
Shatter vs medi guard odds 45%, lockdown vs medi guard odds 60 %
Just stay in staff, seriously, burn/bleed will take em out. Phase retreat his JI, Rupt his WW, and phase retreat/blink away from his pull.

Mesmer – Oh boy a mesmer!! I love you and Imma kill you@!
Odds of winning, once again assuming equal skill/MMR (most people I face are not but lets ignore that)
Shatter 75% Lockdown 40%
Gs > Staff / Staff > Zword / Sword > GS (assuming you’ve already closed the gaps and engaged. Keep them at the disadvantage. Bait dodges with mirror blade/zerker/f2 then burst em when there of dodges and in GS.

PvP

• Name – Doctor Octogon/Daliriant

• Played Mesmer Since – Release

• Favorite Alt – Ele, so much utility and options in every situation. You can play any role and be in any fight and do just fine if you adjust to the situation right.

• Least Favorite Class to Play? Guardian, something about it just doesn’t agree with me. Animations feel slow, skills seem to basic.

• What is your favorite class to fight? Why? Mesmer! So long as it’s not condi lol. It’s fast paced, so much mind games trying to bait cooldowns, one mistake from either player can end the fight instantly. Also I like to test myself against fellow mesmahz.

• What is your least favorite class to fight? Logic says S/D thief but my heart says Ranger. It’s not overly satisfying vsing bleed stacking auto attacks or getting jibbed from 1500 while out of cooldowns, even if I do back myself to win more often then not.

• What is your favorite Mesmer spec? What is your role with this spec? Going to give two answers. Traditionally I’ve always been a huge shatter advocate but recently after coming back from a hiatus I’ve been playing both 4/4/6 CI and shatter equally.

• What other class is your favorite duo partner? On shatter, def a D/P thief. On lockdown, either a medi guard or FA ele.

• If you could give Mesmer a buff, what would it be? Have deceptive evasion moved to a 5 point minor to allow build diversity. I would be ok with nerfs to compensate but having to go 4 into dueling whenever theory crafting is a total bummer.

glock.6590:

A: OP and needs Nerf? None
B: engi, ele thief, warr
C: everything else
D: None

This.

Hello Bryzy, glad your enjoying Mes

It’s most likely the player your referring too was using a 4/4/0/0/6 standard shatter build, as it has the most reliable and consistant high damage burst, though does take effort to set up and has its weaknesses.
It is incredibly fun too play, so long as your on the ball. It can be a nightmare to play if you have a hint of lagg or aren’t on your game.

There’s some basic combo’s (mirror blade+blink+dodge roll+mind wrack+mind stab) and blurred frenzy combo with sword, but with shatter you really cant rely on standard rotations, as you have to play reactive and unpredictably to survive and get your burst off. I suggest watching top Mesmers streams to pick up on tricks and tips and to learn how to approach different matchups with different classes.

These two guys are the two most well known shatter Mesmers, check out there streams.
http://twitch.tv/hansawesome (supcutie)
http://twitch.tv/thelordhelseth (helseth)

Supcutie was also huge for the dankening, I’d give him MVP of the final match (not even including the team portal plays that he brings).

He isnt trolling. I was the downed warrior, I saw him catch my rock. It came up with ‘block’ and did no damage. I have already reported him for hacking.

Ohoni.6057:

These things are not the point. The point is to hold capture points from the enemy team, until one team reaches 500 points.

I haven’t seen that one come up, but if it does, it’s not a very common one.

AHAHAHAHAHA. 10/10

Thief/Mes
Mes/Guard
Engi/Necro

Probably the best 2 man combos.

Bruce. V mesmah sounding.

Also to take into consideration is your roaming partner, in the OP it might seem like I’m strictly a shatter player, but I’ve also started to play lockdown against top tier teams.
This is very personal, but I like to play shatter Mesmer if I’m with a S/X or panic strike thief. CI has become my go to if we run a fresh air or burst guard.

Also I’m sure some of the more experienced lockdown players will disagree, but I’ve found myself having more issues in 1vX+no instant daze shatter or IP distort is noticable in clutch moments while playing CI. The trade off of course is being naturally more tanky, and thieves are a hell of a lot easier on CI.

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Disagree with this completely. Shatter is actually a huge counter to the cele Meta, if you lose to a cele engi/ele 1v1, you were likely outplayed. It’s funny how shatter Mesmer (The biggest counter to the cele meta imo) hasn’t been able to form a counter meta. The reason is actually because of how much cele bruisers outperform bunkers atm. Mesmer is not a self sustaining profession. At high level team play, you need to co-ordinate with your ‘Carers’ so to speak. And traditionally that’s always been the thief and guard to assist the Mes. The problem is, bunkers have been 100% replaced by cele bruisers, as they hold a point just as well, 1v1/2v2 better, have more mobility, and more dps. This only leaves room for self sustaining professions, hence why we are seeing 4 cele and S/D thief teams (All specs with there personal self-sustain). This leaves a Mesmer in a match-up vs the infamous S/D thief + the combined condi pressure that all cele’s bring and suddenly it’s a tough life for the shatter Mes.

TL:DR – Shatter Mesmers are the perfect counter to the cele Meta, but Bunkers have been completely eclipsed leaving the Shatter Mes without the support it needs. A buff to bunker guards will see shatter mes back in the meta imo.

Aberrant.6749:

Neptune.2570:

The change was made because of the relationship between Thief and Mesmer.
Thief hard-counters Mesmer more than any other counter in the game (I would say the only other HARD counter is Necro vs condi Engi). A thief can drop a mes in a second, then stealth for stomp preventing the Mesmer from getting time for team support from res. It is a good change, and I would do more towards evening the missmatch without nerfing thief or buffing mes, such as a change to consume plasma or allowing power block to effect thief weapon skills.

I would be fine with them changing it as long as there was still some counter play involved. Changing a downed state that has one counter (stealth) into one that has none is lazy… expecially considering that that war/necro/eng downed states are reasonable have so many counters.

I see what you’re saying but also consider that Mesmer (along with Thief) is the easiest class to Dps out once there in downed state. This change does only effect the relationship between Mes/Thief. All other can dps a Mesmer faster then stomping twice as it is.

The change was made because of the relationship between Thief and Mesmer.
Thief hard-counters Mesmer more than any other counter in the game (I would say the only other HARD counter is Necro vs condi Engi). A thief can drop a mes in a second, then stealth for stomp preventing the Mesmer from getting time for team support from res. It is a good change, and I would do more towards evening the missmatch without nerfing thief or buffing mes, such as a change to consume plasma or allowing power block to effect thief weapon skills.

V good guide 10/10. Also sexy looking Asuran mes on your team (it was me).

Lordrosicky.5813:

Thoughts guys?

I think… that everytime you make a post, a small kitten dies.

Shockwave.1230:

Ether Feast is fine in my opinion, honestly it could probably use a buff of something like “Remove a condition for each active clone (max 2)” and trigger the condi removal with Illusionary Persona aswell

This would actually be amazing and would make it so I could actually soloq with shatter again

1. Mesmer; Too many players play kitten phantasm or condi builds and stroll in with a WvW or dueling setup and expect to be effective. Most shatter Mesmers can’t play pug groups effectively and really requires an organised team to pull its wait given equal skilled opponants.

2. Ranger; Pew Pew Pew. If you’re gonna stand wayy off point and auto attack bring something with mobility a real burst and escape options. In saying that condi rangers aren’t to bad in a pug group.

3. Thiefs; Too important of a role to have a terrible player in it. I worry when I see thieves I don’t recognize.

Despite this being nothing but a part of the OP’s insane anti-mesmer crusade and making some of the stupidest post’s this forum has seen, I also think these should be fixed.

Amir.1570:

If you wanna play the victim and call your class UP but it’s actually braindead easy to play, play Mesmer.

Lol… don’t listen to this fool. I’d say ranger or war could be your best bet.

KkIenJuju.9406:

Neptune.2570:

You can get in by going through the Asuran gates in main cities, you just can’t directly use the UI to teleport there till lvl 22.

Thats genius, he probably also has to talk to the npc to get into the games……

This is honestly sad, for me its even too much that we need to finish the tutorial. Why cant we just go to pvp after we skipped the initial video scene??

Most likely, but still beats leveling 20 levels xD
And agreed that it’s a silly feature.

You can get in by going through the Asuran gates in main cities, you just can’t directly use the UI to teleport there till lvl 22.

I haven’t played a lot since patch. I played last night though I won roughly 15-20 in a row as a soloqer. Was both vsing and playing with people that obviously had absolutely no clue. Seems to be coming right after my last few games, a lot better matches.