Guild Wars 2

No, if they want to buff condi spec’s make active skills spike the condis were they can be removed, rather than passively leave 4-5 stacks of torment at all times as the scepter clones can instantly reapply.

Nice post OP, I feel somewhat better about the proposed change after reading it.
However I personally feel that conditions on AA’s is just not a good idea, but especially on the Mesmer class. There’s is no cleanse to relieve the pressure from a scepter Mesmer as with all clones out your 4 stacks of torment will be instantly re-applied. That is the issue. There’s no real counter play to a strategy as brainless as bringing out clones to keep permanent pressure on your target.

Leolas.6273:

Neptune.2570:

Grebcol.5984:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zord.6130:

The warrior adrenaline rework is good for thieves actually, since they shouldn’t have many problems in dodging Eviscerate or Earthshaker.
Also, the dagger buff is cool and LS will make a lot more people complain about it.
Really hope that the mesmer’s scepter auto attack doesn’t get through.

This.

I think the cleaving buff was the best buff for thiefs.

Not everyone is playing a Warr.Did u think about vs Mesmer? This kitten cleave will destroy now clones and that does dmg.This Cleave isnt only a buff, it can be also a nerv!

0 serious Mesmer are using clone death builds in ranked matches. It was actually a huge buff for dagger thieves vs mesmers as cleave counters shatter rather nicely.

Yeah true all will be run PU Autotorment Mesmer and wreck thief in secs…lol.That cleave wasnt needed.There are Traps/Traits and a whole set who is useless since realese.then it need also a buff in condicleanse.

None will be running that. It will remain a baddies WvW spec

Grebcol.5984:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zord.6130:

The warrior adrenaline rework is good for thieves actually, since they shouldn’t have many problems in dodging Eviscerate or Earthshaker.
Also, the dagger buff is cool and LS will make a lot more people complain about it.
Really hope that the mesmer’s scepter auto attack doesn’t get through.

This.

I think the cleaving buff was the best buff for thiefs.

Not everyone is playing a Warr.Did u think about vs Mesmer? This kitten cleave will destroy now clones and that does dmg.This Cleave isnt only a buff, it can be also a nerv!

0 serious Mesmer are using clone death builds in ranked matches. It was actually a huge buff for dagger thieves vs mesmers as cleave counters shatter rather nicely.

Depends, It might get slotted in once in a blue moon if I find myself vsing a 2 guards 2 ele team or something. Wont have a solid place by any means though.

Nope. The torment on scepter auto should just be removed rather than start this silly power creep.

zaxon.6819:

it is at the point now that whenever you kill someone.. they flame you for being pu mesmer.. even when you dont play pu mesmer.. i play shatter and some wierd hybrid specs.. and if you win.. “carried by pu” its just tainting the whole mesmer profession.

The joy of playing melee shatter.
I get called cheese by turret engi’s, hambows, terrormancers whenever I drop anyone. You can’t not play PU, even when you don’t :P

Simonoly.4352:

About 12 threads down in this sub forum is a list of ways to counter play Illusionary Leap. Just subtract the counter play to do with the clone leap/pathing issues, and you’ve still got a bunch more ways to counter this than you have other teleporting/leap skills.

Everything will be fine. Mesmers will just have a reliable gap closer, which means you just have to dodge it more. If you can dodge Infiltrators Strike, Steal or Flashing Blade, I guarantee that you will be able to dodge Illusionary Leap.

^This.

The changes to Mesmer were great, good job anet!… but then there’s the torment on scepter auto. Please god. No.

nicknamenick.2437:

Neptune.2570:

nicknamenick.2437:

Neptune.2570:

nicknamenick.2437:

zaxon.6819:

they dont need a cooldown for ileap.. because in any fight where there is more then one person the clone will die on spawn and do nothing before it even hits the ground. im not sure the reaction time you have if you can spam the button to swap or not.. but the clone will still die…

and the counterplay to imob is condi cleanse.. how is there not counter play to imob. i dont understand how that is even being said..

Pls reply to my Pin down argument..

Because you can counter pin down also by condi cleanse.. and still they nerfed it (it was needed dont get me wrong)

Whats the difference between that and Ileap now?

6 stacks of 12 second bleeds
An extra second of immob
An extra 400 range to cast it from.
Also has a base damage on it’s attack.

Still condi can be removed.. so again, why?

Because its not ONLY the ileap. its you have a Free to go 100% hitting blurred Frenzy now…

what if warriors get ileap on GS.. your “ok” with that also? instant 100% hitting 100b??

Ofc not, those skill should be having a form of counterplay

Blurred frenzy is not overly damaging. Your arcing arrow will do roughly the same damage.

uhm blurred is also evade remember?…

How is that relevant to the Ileap/swap change? Only the blurred frenzy damage is relevant as it combo’s.

Condi side point Mesmer blotting up your screen with AI and passive skills now able to kill you fast enough to be viable or apply enough pressure to sit and hold the point. Doesn’t even need PU, the extra trait points can be spent picking up confusion on clone death + extra confusion with IE for extra staff bounces for more conditions from clones. The sky is indeed falling. I’m a Mesmer main, and can honestly say this build will be an entirely new level of disgusting.

nicknamenick.2437:

Neptune.2570:

nicknamenick.2437:

zaxon.6819:

they dont need a cooldown for ileap.. because in any fight where there is more then one person the clone will die on spawn and do nothing before it even hits the ground. im not sure the reaction time you have if you can spam the button to swap or not.. but the clone will still die…

and the counterplay to imob is condi cleanse.. how is there not counter play to imob. i dont understand how that is even being said..

Pls reply to my Pin down argument..

Because you can counter pin down also by condi cleanse.. and still they nerfed it (it was needed dont get me wrong)

Whats the difference between that and Ileap now?

6 stacks of 12 second bleeds
An extra second of immob
An extra 400 range to cast it from.
Also has a base damage on it’s attack.

Still condi can be removed.. so again, why?

Because its not ONLY the ileap. its you have a Free to go 100% hitting blurred Frenzy now…

what if warriors get ileap on GS.. your “ok” with that also? instant 100% hitting 100b??

Ofc not, those skill should be having a form of counterplay

Blurred frenzy is not overly damaging. Your arcing arrow will do roughly the same damage.

Also people are forgetting that Ileap itself has a cast, there is an animation tell from the Mesmer.

nicknamenick.2437:

zaxon.6819:

they dont need a cooldown for ileap.. because in any fight where there is more then one person the clone will die on spawn and do nothing before it even hits the ground. im not sure the reaction time you have if you can spam the button to swap or not.. but the clone will still die…

and the counterplay to imob is condi cleanse.. how is there not counter play to imob. i dont understand how that is even being said..

Pls reply to my Pin down argument..

Because you can counter pin down also by condi cleanse.. and still they nerfed it (it was needed dont get me wrong)

Whats the difference between that and Ileap now?

6 stacks of 12 second bleeds
An extra second of immob
An extra 400 range to cast it from.
Also has a base damage on it’s attack.

As a Mesmer main, this is horrible. Please rethink the scepter AA’s anet. Condi Mesmer really will be one of the most passive/faceroll specs this game has ever seen.

I think they will implement a CD between the leap and swap, 0.5 seconds would be good. IE was a bugfix. AOE mantras are not OP. GS 3 was a useless skill and Mesmer needed some form of AOE. Torment on scepter AA is disgusting and should most definately not get the go ahead.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Neptune.2570:

@OP, it’s the boons from PU that make em tanky, not the traitline. An interrupt mez is more often than not very squishy in zerk amulet with little to no condi removal.

@Those trying to say an interrupt mez is faceroll? Lol. That’s hilarious. It’s possibly the most skill dependent spec in this game. Also stability is protected by other boons and removed last, it’s not a matter of just using a boonstrip.

really stability always is removed last? O.O I always thought it’s just random and I’m unlucky :O

I believe so, I haven’t tested extensively, but it is last for sure in the case of null field and necro wells, so I imagine its the same for all boon strips.

This Mesmer is completely different from the Gw1 Mesmer, honestly I do like this Mesmer, it’s just the direction the devs seem to be taking with it aren’t quite what I, nor from what I gather many other Mesmers agree with (along with some beyond infuriating, class crippling bugs). Currently as it stands, yes, I think the profession is totally Messed up.

Mesmer itself takes a long time to develop, the class will properly begin to unravel after lvl 60ish(When you start to unlock key traits), you will feel broken before then, that’s just the way the Mesmer is.
Honestly, despite the broken bugs and dev’s slowly making the Mesmer as unMesmer as possible, it is still an incredibly fun class. I say you stick with it, it’s not Gw1 mes, but it’s still a great design in the end.

Scholar for PvP suits me best, Using strength for WvW roaming but will likely trade out for Hoelbrak.

I was expecting to see plenty of glass LB rangers post patch. Mimic was one of the skills I was most looking forward too without any changes.
Now hoping that the boon copy is just an added effect to the reflect.

6am my time. I can confidently say I won’t be waking up for it.

coglin.1867:

You guys need to diversify if you honestly believe that the mesmer profession is the only one that has issues of this nature. Trust me, these problems occur with every profession.

Every profession has it’s bugs yes, but if you believe there to the state of the Mesmers. than you need to play Mesmer!

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Mesmer is really strong in pug PvE and non-speedrun organized groups because they offer a ton of utility and have better single-target DPS than guardians, but current FGS meta means that guardians tend to be preferred for the same roles since they can burst better both in support and damage, albeit they can’t sustain as well.

At the very least wait until they announce what the Septermber changes will be before ruling them out, mesmers get tons of buffs pretty much every patch so I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re due for some pretty significant buffs this one too.

Mesmer literally hasn’t got a single buff in over a year.
Honestly if you want the most solid caster pick ele. Bad pugs have a problem with necro’s and Mesmers are broken as hell.

@OP, it’s the boons from PU that make em tanky, not the traitline. An interrupt mez is more often than not very squishy in zerk amulet with little to no condi removal.

@Those trying to say an interrupt mez is faceroll? Lol. That’s hilarious. It’s possibly the most skill dependent spec in this game. Also stability is protected by other boons and removed last, it’s not a matter of just using a boonstrip.

Wouldn’t mind it having a small initial hit like there doing with choking gas, just to eliminate the grey area with it’s regards to CI.

Pretty much that^

In short it gave Mesmers a chance to counter play thieves (who single handedly keep us out of most PvP teams), and rewarded doing more than stacking with max DPS in PvE.
Naturally anet would give it an instant bug fix(nerf).

The skill is working as intended, it is designed to ignore revealed. Not even anet would call this one a fix instead of a nerf.
As someone has mentioned, in revealed it could instead give a split second stealth just to drop the target, but then would require a reduced CD as it would be a senseless nerf to a struggling class.

A third shatter GM in a trait line that has nothing to do with shatters, eh.
I like the idea of the trait, and Disrupters Sustainment is a joke, but I’m not sure it fits into place.

Hayashi.3416:

Mesmer here.

[Illusionary Disenchanter].

I don’t need another buff on Sword. I need buffs on Torch and Sceptre AA. Some reason to ever use those weapons.

Sword doesn’t need a ‘buff’ it does desperately need a fix though.

IE doesn’t effect any illusions including staff clones and Image as well.

MSFone.3026:

Thanks for reply! Haven’t run shatter in a looong time, what are the current runes people are using?

And are you guys saying full glass or what kind of toughness? Not sure what people are doing with shatter in wvw these days.

The terrormancer may well be running without swiftness as well, in which case no travelers runes isn’t such a big deal.
You have a few options alongside travelers. Strength, Hoelbrak, Scholar and Infiltrators would all be viable.

SlimChance.6593:

They’re one of the few that can actually negate condi burst.

Only with Mantra of Resolve and Harmonious Mantra’s can we remove a condi burst and then its only the initial one.. then we have a 20 second cooldown before we even get to cast the 2-1/2 second mantra recharge in order to do it again.

Null Field has a 40 sec CD and only removes one condition every second (5 seconds total) as long as we stay standing in it.

Phantasmal Disenchanter has a1-1/2 second cast time and a 20 sec CD. And while its alive only removes a single condition every 5 seconds..IF it bounces off the Mesmer and not his allies.. meanwhile the enemy can simply “breath” on it and there’s goes our condition removal.

Mender’s Purity is an adept trait that removes 2 conditions every time we cast a heal spell.. But now your waiting on the healing cooldown to remove conditions a whopping 2 at a time.

EDIT: Forgot about Arcane Theievery.. 45 second cooldown.. send 3 conditions/steal 3 boons. Again very long cooldown and for some reason a very very buggy skill. 1/3 of the time it simply doesn’t work. It must have a very narrow cone line of sight or something. Originally, this transfered ALL condition/boons and the 45 second cooldown was justified. But then it was nerfed to 3 and the CD remains.

So for condi burst.. Mantra of Resolve/Harmonious Mantra’s is the best option.. but that only gets us over that first bursts. Any condi-heavy build from necro’s, rangers, PU mesmer’s, engineer’s, etc. can simply can overpower(condition wise) a mesmer easily.

A mesmer’s best defense against conditions is simply to avoid them. And frankly many professions “condition-heavy” builds (Including the PU Memser) can simply keep applying conditions almost non-stop.

I especially like the Necro build I’ve been running into lately.. the one that casts 5-6 conditions at once and then again about 15 seconds later and keeps you feared as your health just drains away. Not even giving you a chance to remove them. Those guys are tough.

Not too mention how many of those are simply not viable in conquest. I disenchant is really, not a skill for conquest. A mesmer could take ONE of arcane thievery (3 condis removed every 45 secs) null field (terrible personal removal, ok for group support) or the mantra (4 condis over 20 seconds, with a 2 and 3/4 second charge time). An extra 2 condis removed a heal for the trade off of either your burst or your boon strip.
Realisically, Mesmer’s have either terrible condi removal, but can be OK in the teamfight, or can have OK condi removal but bring nothing to a teamfight.

Yep. A shatter a terrormancer combo is a brutal one.

As a general rule run as bursty as you can within your comfort level. You can tweak between zerk and knights till you find your sweet spot. If you’re worried about the DPS drop off you could try IE in illusions to give your GS and extra kick from mirror blade, comes at the expense of II though.

hannah mee.7925:

Fay.2357:

hannah mee.7925:

Ross Biddle.2367:

If you want to kill trash mobs and be a casual player, there are other weapons you should be taking for various reasons.

I appreciate the input but I feel like if I gear moderately well enough a staff would be just fine. I mostly intend to just get some map completion done and play the story.

Map completion and other PvE on mesmer can be irritating at the best of times. Using a staff will make that go from irritating to incredibly aggravating.

You can do it, but we all strongly advise you against it.

I suppose…I wonder if elementalist would be any better off with staff – my Asura can’t seem to get a staff that’s worth a visual kitten .

For what you’re after a staff ele would be 20 times better (That’s not even an exaggerated number)

Would have to split all bleed/burning skill between PvE and PvP; classes that apply large amounts of bleed stacks quickly (especially though AA’s are already a problem in PvP.

Lol.

Thread doesn’t warrant any more of a response then that.

Does seem like a strange one. It gives the conditions in a radius, so it must act like a physical skill rather then like retal.

iSpook.5612:

wow there were two terrible responses to me.

I guess there are a lot of LB / rifle warriors out there….I don’t think I have ever seen one.

and still my main point that no one can dispute. Just give it up. If you think the warrior nerf is ok, just argue that point. Please don’t try to argue that a Mesmer has two punishment to use clones. The shatter has a cooldown and the skill that makes the clone has a cooldown. Im trying to relate to you that by your argument, the Mesmer should have a build up bar before he can release a clone. Do you think that’s fair?

The warrior will be the first character that will be punished twice for the same mistake. He will lose the power build AND have the cooldown. I don’t know why ppl don’t get that. If you think that is fair, FINE. But please don’t try to explain to me that other charactors face that problem too. All skills and build up skills just have a cooldown EXCEPT the warrior will now lose everything AND a cooldown.

You’re joking right? Mesmer misses his shatter the clone generating skill goes on cooldown, the shatter skill goes on cooldown, he loses the clones he had generated, and loses his damage bonus % for having generated clones.
Not too mention the thought that goes into making the clones, the tradeoff of using defensive CD’s to set up your offensive burst and having to place your clones so they have a better chance of landing on the shatter as opposed to passively gaining adrenaline through damaging/taking damage.

Black Box.9312:

Olba.5376:

I am saying that there should be some builds that allow for a newcomer to get an occasional win, even against a veteran player.

I get that; and I am telling you that I wholeheartedly disagree.

The thing is that these builds also cross over all skill lvl’s. High skilled players using safe builds to consisantly beat other high skilled players. There isn’t downsides to using these builds. None whatsoever.
Also while a new player may not pick up on the other players mistakes at first if there getting punished for making there mistakes there going to learn. How are they going to learn when meta builds are so forgiving that they do not get punished. How will they ever realize there mistake and begin to get better?

A unique idea, but how would one go about using it as skillful counterplay, especially if it’s thrown on the AA chain? Seems like it would be a bit spammy and success with it would come from luck rather than skill.

Carighan.6758:

I’d actually love it if the field would temporarily suppress all effects.
Everything you see in the buff/debuff bars would not work while inside it. Food, boons, conditions, special effects, haste, nothing. Ofc, the moment you leave the field or the field ends, all effects apply as normal again. You could even still apply boons and conditions inside the field, they’d just have 0 effect. Super-pause-mode for effects.

Yep!
Very cool, but yeah, questions around how easy it would be to code.

Seriously, the proposed fix is OP is perhaps a touch too much. Glamors are supposed to be group utility rather then personal but null field in a group it still lacking somewhat. With WvW in mind perhaps a larger radius and removing the AOE cap on it?

Olba.5376:

Neptune.2570:

Olba.5376:

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

Newer players shouldn’t be highly rewarded though. Sure there should be safer specs which work well for newer or less skilled players, but they should not be highly rewarding and more influential then a large skill gap.
Currently high risk = practically no reward, practically no risk = decent reward for most specs. It has nothing to do with new or old players. It’s reflected across all players and it’s why we’re stuck in this stale meta.

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

The reason why high risk does not amount to high reward is because of Quickness. We used to have Bull’s Charge>100 blades with Frenzy as a combination that would kill most others instantly, but if countered it would also die easily. And ANet said that they do not want a meta where you get stomped over and over again before you can react.

Of course a newer player should be getting stomped to an experienced skilled player, that’s part of learning the game. Matchmaking should make it so newer players rarely come up against experienced players, but to think that anything other then skill should decide the outcome because new players want to be good instantly? There trying to make this an e-sport, not make every single player feel super nice about there PvP skill coz they can walk into an arena and beat an experienced player with 3 buttons.

The quickness buff has pretty much no relevance to the imbalance of risk/reward. I’m not sure what made you think that the meta has evolved this way and people are playing like this is because of the quickness buff.

Majority of the warriors I’ve seen are reasonably happy with the changes and not necessarily considering them a nerf either. Seems the change will hit lesser skilled warriors harder then warriors over all.

Olba.5376:

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

Newer players shouldn’t be highly rewarded though. Sure there should be safer specs which work well for newer or less skilled players, but they should not be highly rewarding and more influential then a large skill gap.
Currently high risk = practically no reward, practically no risk = decent reward for most specs. It has nothing to do with new or old players. It’s reflected across all players and it’s why we’re stuck in this stale meta.

Rasalhague.8270:

80% of balance is cooldown changes.

Allow me to balance the game for you :

Thief
-Remove initiative but keep steal
-Put 20 second cooldown on steal
-Increase cooldown on thief sword movement skills from 3 to 6 seconds
-Increase cooldown on dagger stealth to 20 seconds

Guardian
-Decrease cooldown of Leap of Faith from 15 to 12 (without trait)
-Decrease cooldown of GS4 to 15 seconds
-Decrease cooldown of GS5 to 20 seconds
-Judge intervention to 30 sec base cooldown
-Contemplation of Purity to 40 sec base cooldown
-All spirit weapons to 40 sec base cooldown
-Save yourselves and Retreat to 40 sec base cooldown
-Hallowed Ground to 30 sec cooldown
-Sanctuary to 60 sec cooldown
-Bane signet to 30 sec cooldown
-Increase projectile speed on staff, scepter and trident

Ranger
-Increase damage of all axe skills by 20%
-Put 1/4 second of evade on the first and second hit of GS autoattack
-Improve pets health by 50%

Elementalist
-D/D Earth 5, give stability and protection when channeling earth 5
-D/D Air, reduce cooldown on Air 4 and 5
-D/D Water, reduce cooldown on water 5

Necro
-Increase radius area of wells by 200
-Staff, increase projectile speed of autoattack
-Increase damage of axe skills by 20%

Mesmer
-All clones have retaliation

Warrior
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

Engineer
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

What…? Perma evade on ranger GS AA’s…?
Mesmer clones having retal….?
This fixes…? Balance….?

Menders Purity is pretty good as a function, the only problem is having to go 2 points into illusion to get any reliable personal condi cleanse outside of the mantra. Mesmer has a lot of problems at the moment, but I don’t consider Mender’s Purity to be one of them.

Presuming you’re talking wvw here. I’d take one nomad AH guard and one nomad healbot ele. Absolutely no more then that though.

Won’t solve much. The most efficient way will still be stack with the highest dps gear (will just take people a day to figure out the new best stat combos) and the core of the problem will not be resolved. It’s the fact that AI in this game is just… bad…

Anyone checked to see if Arcane Thievery has re-bugged :P?