Guild Wars 2

Not sure I buy the performance issue. Sure if you want a detailed combat log of the damage all around you, that might be the case. What I want to see in the log, as a first step, is all the numbers I see on my screen already. The data is sent, my client is receiving and displaying those numbers, why cant I have them written to the chat window or better yet to a log file if I want?

Dawdler.8521:

Both hammer Guardian and hammer Warrior are very, very desirable in any 10+ group (Guardian for its blast finisher/stun, Warrior for its stun). If you are a GS Guardian/Warrior in group combat you’re wasting everybodies time. Of course you can swap to that if you want to solo or do small scale.

In terms of builds you only really have to consider that you need to have 1600+ toughness/vitality for large group combat or again, you’re wasting everybodies time.

This is just outright stupid, pretty much all parts of it. In a group you play a role, your gear and your build should reflect that role. What your role is depends on your group, your position in it, and the synergy you are trying to accomplish. This blanket view that everyone needs to stack toughness/vitality and play hammer fail is just a zerglet, brain dead approach to the game that involves rushing in large numbers smashing face into keyboard and ignoring any kind of group synergy.

As for the OP, both classes have solid choices for a variety of roles. Best to play them both for a bit and see what you like best.

Achilles.2197:

Halo.8976:

Pinko.2076:

You should join Blackgate.

Definitely. On mag we’re just farming gold for transfer. Dead server. Worst guilds. Lots of trolls.

He’s interested in SoS, not the troll server.

Says the guy in a match thread he doesnt belong?

VOLKON.1290:

LilMcGinley.3890:

We tried to “rip down a door” but where met by 6 instantly built arrow carts that we can’t destroy…

waiting to fight? or will they just run to inner and DO THE EXACT SAME THING.

I’ve honestly never seen people so afraid to die in any video game I’ve ever played.

There are no arrow carts you can’t destroy, but you’re unwilling to learn to counter so that’s irrelevant apparently. You want fights? Come to the T1/T2 neck of the woods and learn what the expression “be careful what you wish for” actually means. If you’re making the conscious choices to remain on low population WvW servers and to not learn to counter siege then you’ve forfeited the right to complain and be taken seriously.

This remark is silly, like T1/T2 has a cornerstone on thought. Been there, bought a t-shirt, don’t think it lives up to the hype.

VOLKON.1290:

Jscull.2514:

Power creep? Good players should be rewarded.. Supply mastery rewards casual idiots who want to build siege more. ZERO progress made towards a player vs player atmosphere.

Rewarded by imbalancing players against other players? Sorry… WoW is that way. —-—>

One of the basic premises behind the game is not having that form of required power creep and it’ll be a dark day if they ever cater to the crowd that want it.

Given the general prevalence of siege on small maps how is increased power/range/effects of siege growing significantly since the release of WXP NOT a power creep? I see no difference between siege mastery and a weapon mastery.

Also having useful abilities for non-siege users does not necessarily have to mean power creep. Siege bunker would be useful, but 5%?? Who gives a kitten about 5% less damage? How about some siege CC immunity/reduction or actual meaningful reduction to siege damage? Guard defense/killer, other then the 115 point abilities, are basically useless to anyone not running around naked in WvW. More impact, guard cc immunity/reduction, might make it worth while, but 10% for 85 points… what a joke.

A useful ability that is not siege related would also be nice.

The issue is that if you are blobbing, keeping in mind there is a difference between being in a large coordinated zerg and blobbing, then you are basically playing the game on auto-pilot and this game rewards you for it.

The fact that so many people are content to just blob around playing like chimps is a point of irritation for everyone that wants to see a game with evolving and competitive meta.

Topic says it all. I remember a dev post in beta indicating there would be a decent combat log, instead we have something that shows only a fraction of what happens to you/what you do and is currently utterly useless.

I am aware that carebear central, which seems to make up the majority of the GW2 development team, will decry the very existence of combat logs, so lets start with baby steps. Just have it so the current combat log shows all types of damage, ie like condition damage, and heals.

JJBigs.8456:

Yes open them. How are TC/BG supposed to be competitive in wvw if the servers are full and they are losing because of high PVE population?

Could try playing better.

I do not care how they are made available, I just wish that all stat combinations were made available in one fashion or another.

Many people start as pug zerglets, and that is fine. In fact I think zergs are a great way for new folks to join and become familiar with WvW.

The issue GW2 has in my opinion, is that because of what the game rewards, how the game is set up, folks are not really gaining in skill and maturing enough to move away from being anything but pugs.

The issues isn’t an AC, its stacking of ACs.

There are ways around them, but ultimately they just make things less fun.

If we do get them it will be like the ones you can purchase with badges, recycled from other parts of the game and purchasable for 10s off the trading post.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Most reports that we have received were very vague and didn’t give much more information other than the actual objective, but with the help of my QA and what I saw we were able to get a better repro and submit a more detailed bug for further investigation.

Good to know that out of the thousands of people that have submitted reports on this, you are the only special snowflake that could provide enough details for it to be looked into. Never mind that the forums have described the bug in detail a number of times. Sure we as lowly, unable to write proper bug reports, players could understand and figure it out, no reason to think ANET could until it happens to them.

lioka qiao.8734:

If you can pull off a golem rush with that many golems and some how not kitten it up…

- Portal chain is pulled off successfully
- all of your golems actually make it into the portals
- none of your golems port backwards
- you didn’t leave any golems at spawn
and
- you didn’t kill a golem throwing it off a cliff

Then you deserve to get whatever target you wanted. I don’t do golem rushes cause they require too much attention span to work.

So your version of tough, and thus deserving a reward, is a bunch of folks walking together and properly using portals? Clearly the skill bar in this game is too high.

Golems should be limited to 5 per map in my opinion. Personally I think they should be removed from the game as their very point is to avoid a fight. I disagree that the point of anything in WvW should be about avoiding a fight.

Can you tell us when we are going to get something useful for non-siege users? All your WXP abilities are for siege, those that are not are outright useless except the 115 point rewards.

Tribio.8531:

Oh nice, zerglings found the “new topic” button..

I laughed.

I have found all classes fun, they are just fun in different situations.

D/P is pvp with training wheels, its what you play when you cant land C&D in combat, and makes the rest of the thieves look bad.

sparklevision.8109:

I think the only way to fix the ‘zerg always wins’ issue is to make the maps larger, or lower the caps per map.

I do not think there is a ‘zerg always wins’ issue now. Zergs are hugely inefficient and not up to par with coordinating squads.

The game favors zerging, in every conceivable way, and that is why we have zergs. Not because they always win.

Lanimal.6541:

Niim.9260:

Lanimal.6541:

Niim.9260:

Lanimal.6541:

Niim you still around? I haven’t seen AoN recently.

Yep, still playing, but I play a lot less, decided to enjoy summer AoN took a break when the summer started, might start playing when folks free up again but hard to say. The game hasn’t exactly improved in the areas that would be important to us.

You still playing?

Yeah but I mostly just run havoc squads now. Zerging got boring once we crossed the constant 40+ threshold.

Who would have thought?

Don’t get me wrong I am not completely anti-zerging, I am against map-blobbing as I think its an inefficient use of resources and plays the PPT game poorly. I am cool with multiple 30-35 guild groups or zergs workin together to give the illusion of a map blob but I do not enjoy one tag per map blobbing the whole Q.

xD

I would agree with that assessment, though I think 25ish is a better number organizationally then 30-35, get more from your peeps at a bit smaller size, imo.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Jscull.2514:

Please go pve. This is 100% pve… How kittening boring.

So you find it “fun” zerging a tower in the space of 3 minutes?
WvW has NO challenge what so ever, thanks to Zergs

The fact that a group of 5 people can take a tower in MINUTES is stupid if its not guarded, this at least would make it a challenge you might not understand what a challenge is, seeing as how WvW hasnt had any for ALONG time.

I find it amusing that your vision of making it more of a challenge is too beef up its PvE nature.

Lanimal.6541:

Niim.9260:

Lanimal.6541:

Niim you still around? I haven’t seen AoN recently.

Yep, still playing, but I play a lot less, decided to enjoy summer AoN took a break when the summer started, might start playing when folks free up again but hard to say. The game hasn’t exactly improved in the areas that would be important to us.

You still playing?

Yeah but I mostly just run havoc squads now. Zerging got boring once we crossed the constant 40+ threshold.

Who would have thought?

Lanimal.6541:

Niim you still around? I haven’t seen AoN recently.

Yep, still playing, but I play a lot less, decided to enjoy summer AoN took a break when the summer started, might start playing when folks free up again but hard to say. The game hasn’t exactly improved in the areas that would be important to us.

You still playing?

The game has been circling the toilet bowl for awhile, pretty much since the introduction of WXP. The system could have done so much to make the game better, less zerg based, and instead they put in a system that made it worse and then proceeded to spend every patch since working on siege weapons.

Catering to the lowest common denominator in the end makes for a boring game that lacks challenge.

deathTouch.9706:

My experience with FA is that individual skill of players and guilds are quite lacking. Once they face opponents with similar coverage they perform very poorly.

My experience with dumb people is that they post dumb things.

krijgsheer.9624:

I like the abilities very much, always gaining something in wvw. I also found it good that it takes very long to get them. I like the idea of resetting them but the badge cost must be very high. Why very high? Because otherwise when people are defending sm or so , will switch to certain siege abilities and that is unfair.

Hi zerglet.

Thrumdi.9216:

The current community is suggestion is to make resets available for badges, time-gated (say once a week).

Anet would be smart to implement it.

No money in that, it will be a store item.

I would be happy if they provided at least one ability for non-siege users that wasn’t utterly pointless.

Right now all we have to work towards is the 115 point stat boosts.

If doing damage to more people via an increase in the AoE cap is a technical limitation that would lead to more skill lag, it seems to me like we could reduce skill lag by making heals/cleanse/buffs all group based.

I have long been a proponent of putting in a proper squad management system and converting all friendly abilities to group/target based only. I think the quality of play and the viability of squad and smaller group level play would be increased.

Being able to all just blob up with no effort to forming groups or to be organized in any fashion is what has created such a low skill cap in this game.

dreztina.4820:

Friend offered to cover my transfer expenses back to Mag if I decided to start playing again, but from reading this thread, it looks like T3 is even worse than when I left. Shame.

Its not T3, its the game. When ANET set the bar so low they made sure the game doesn’t exactly ‘progress’ all that far, skill wise. Over time you lose the bulk of the good players, and now we have… well frankly some pretty pathetic play on all sides.

strifer.7986:

Since this is not obviously our problem and DEV do not talk or even comment a thread with this argument !!

Perhaps, the game was not meant to be played as three giant lag creating blobs per map?

Perhaps, it was not their intent for a majority of the game to cram themselves into the top 5 servers?

totalpwnage.6534:

Currently I find every thief I’m fighting to get perma stealth through Black Powder>Leap finisher (normally HS). Fight pretty much goes Hide in Shadows>CnD>Shadow Refuge>Black powder+leap finisher. I think the amount of stealth abilities and length of stealth should not be available to full dps builds that don’t include Shadow Arts or Acrobatics which are the two survival trees, this means as a dps glass cannons thieves get the most survivability without having to trait for it at all.

I posted on D/P about six months ago, before it became the rage. I viewed it at the time, and still do, as PvP with training wheels. The reason to play it is because your not good enough to land cloak and dagger in combat.

I personally think ANET doomed the ‘perception’ of the class by making stealth as important to a thief’s defense as it is, to much so. More defense in other areas and a greatly reduced access to stealth would have went a long way of making the thief less cheesy and more respected.

DevonCarver.5370:

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

How many times have you used that excuse?

style.6173:

One thing to remember. A lot of us LIKE zerging. Changing the gameplay away from that would lose a lot of players. Instead, there need to be some newer smaller maps that cater to people such as yourself who want smaller scale combat.

The game doesn’t reward small play, the size of maps has nothing at all to do with it.

Zerging is part of the game, and it should be for a variety of reasons. The issue is that zerging is so easy and heavily rewarded that the zergs in this game are horrible and boring.

Lyonell.1753:

Secondly Anet is not to blame for these lame match ups, most servers have about the same population, the difference lies withing how many actually care about WvW. If your server is "Full but 90% of the people are there doing you know useless kitten like CoF 1 or farming orr for legendary kitten your server will continue to loose and thus those few who stand and fight will quit.

This game has many aspects, one of which is WvW and let’s face it WvW is not exactly where they focus their efforts. Balance cannot be about server population because the game is not just about WvW. Balance can only be based on how many people are in WvW.

That said I disagree with penalizing folks for being on the winning side, I would rather see them double the earnings of those with the outmanned buff, then penalize those facing the outmanned buff.

woofie.5603:

Tarnished Coast is bored to tears. we have had 570 + ppt with nobody challanging us for weeks. WvW is the only reason I play and I’ve had a month without any real WvW happening.

Please fix. please

TC kept recruiting well beyond the point of needing it for competitive reasons, grats for ‘winning’ the coverage wars, you are now experiencing your reward

Renxian.6982:

Community retains players. Why do you think TC for example has been steadily growing and FA has been consistently shrinking. One community works together and one tears itself apart. One community has commanders that berate militia and one has commanders that embrace them. One has inter guild and community cooperation and one passes blame and chases away member guilds.

Your view is naive and frankly outright wrong. You used TC as an example so I will as well, this isn’t meant as some kind of issue with TC.

First of all TC is not the working together, everyone sing songs mecca that you think it is. I have played there on a friends toon, I see nothing remarkably different in TC vs other communities, perhaps a tad more mature in LA, but WvW is pretty much the same as every server I have played.

TC is going to win against all but potentially three servers. FA is going to win against all but 5 servers. TC has pretty decent coverage around the clock, FA has.. well limited coverage. The big guilds moving around at this stage of the game are generally moving to places that have solid off-hour populations, which is not FA. TC spends a lot of time, or at least did, recruiting and have a big warchest. FA… well we do not on both fronts.

Your comparison is pretty much fail. There are a lot of reasons guilds will pick TC and DB over FA, community is just one aspect. Not to say FA is a community full of love and harmony, but we have never pretended it to be either.

I mostly just spam laugh at them, specially D/P ‘pvping with training wheels’ thieves.

Alilinke.7690:

Why would you hold a GvG on the third servers borderlands? :S

So that neither side needs to run all that far to get there/back. Not sure why that needed explaining.

Some new silly piece of siege and its inevitable mastery ability. That’s my prediction.

I recommend the ArrowCart class.

ANET didn’t remove anything, they just made it so no one was forced into a specific role. Great idea with a huge negative side effect. So many bad players obviously need to be forced into specific roles or you end up with the skill-less zerg play we have now.

This has led the the most boring faction based MMO I have ever played and one of the few games that has had no skill progression at all, in fact it seems worse now then at release because all the good players/guilds have gotten bored and left the game.

ANET needs to toss their reward system on its head and start rewarding good play and thus encouraging folks to step forward and start playing with the amazing synergy this game actually provides. Setup the squad system with a GUI management system, ie raid frames, and change all buffs/heals/effects to be group only. Over night this game will be transformed to something actually worth playing.

eithinan.9841:

umadbro?

While mildly amusing years ago when that term first started making the rounds, it is now just an indication of an unoriginal mind and the loss of an argument. Be more original.

Deathdom.8250:

Niim.9260:

Is the ALS guild the same one, granted a different name, from Anvil Rock? They play just as poorly, so that is my assumption, but thought I would check before making assumptions.

From reading various matchup threads in the previous weeks, they are the same guild.

Thanks!

Training wheels, after all that is what the build is all about, PvP with training wheels.

Is the ALS guild the same one, granted a different name, from Anvil Rock? They play just as poorly, so that is my assumption, but thought I would check before sticking with the assumption.

SoggyFrog.4170:

You say, “If you didn’t want progression at all, then you would more likely favor sPvP over WvW PvP.” In the following sentence you say, “They are entirely different play styles”. I agree with the second statement, which makes the first point moot. I play WvW because it’s a different play style from sPvP, not because it has progression.

A big part of that difference is one has progression and the other does not. It was not a contradiction, it was a connection to the discussion. There is a difference between ‘likely’ and ‘will’.

You say, “The WvW PvP crowd…. will always lag behind the zerg on points” (I agree), but in your first paragraph you say, “extra stats might turn the tide of the fight”. My point is exactly that even if we wanted the extra stats… They’d belong to the zerg.

Zerg will have them, but it will be more mixed with people that like to face roll siege masteries and the reality is that those stats in the hands of a zerglet is not going to be nearly as useful as the coordinated group.

I believe that the progression that the WvW PvP crowd is looking for exists, and has always existed, in this game. It’s the kind of progression that depends on there being quality players, and on one’s being able to develop as an individual and as a team. There is still much that I am learning in this game, and as I learn, I progress.

Quality players hit the skill cap of this game months ago, many months ago. Progression on that front died a long time ago and either way that is hardly a progression system. I fight cause I like fighting people, I like running into the odd quality player, that doesn’t mean it is a substitute for a progression system.

The real danger is that any stat progression introduced now will simply act to discourage and smother that PvP community.

This is used in every progression system debate ever held and it is deeply flawed. First of all every game make it easier to enter the progression system as the game goes along, which keeps the gap from getting too wide. Second in this game where everyone runs around in a giant ball, they will not even notice the difference.

Progression system should be for all play types and if it’s not going to be stats then start pushing for something worthwhile for the rest of us that play the game. Meaningful and useful abilities that are worth putting points into, because what we have now is kitten. Until then I think the stats are a much needed addition.

Aeros.2046:

WvW is more a game of grand strategy where Commanders direct large bodies of players towards strategic goals and objectives and it then falls on those players to use their individual skill and ability to see the commanders vision executed. Player vs. Player tends to indicate more 1 on 1, and this very rarely happens in WvW. It also means that you see many people spend 100 gold to buy the blue hat, but then find that it is alot harder to lead then follow. It really is much like War in that respect.

Having played other war simulators, I must confess there is a depth in GW2 that is missing even from games like Battlefield 3. The commander has to consider so many different variables and possible outcomes to each action, while the players themselves have to maintain their cool and discipline in some very nasty and chaotic situations.

What a pile of trash,. Most people in a zerg are half afk or so busy focusing on tagging they might as well be afk. This game lacks depth and the pathetically weak meta to the game is proof.

Typically a skilled ‘zerg’ is really just a skilled commander and 70 other people that can master the basics of stacking, dropping combo fields, and blasting combo fields all on command like trained seals.

Obviously there is a few exceptions, very few, but generally the PvP portion of this game is pretty low in quality. GW2 sets the skill bar so low you can sub in your pet goldfish when you gotta go eat or use the bathroom.

SoggyFrog.4170:

Honestly, I don’t think WXP bonuses need to be provided for things outside of the PvE/siege aspects of WvW. Part of the beauty of WvW is that it has different audiences, and those who are interested in novelties, character progression, and the large-scale siege warfare aspect should be satisfied with guard-killing and siege operation bonuses. Many of those who sincerely play WvW for the PvP aspect don’t really care for stat progression, because then the game just becomes less of a challenge the longer they play.

The issue with these guard killer and defense lines is that it’s an encroachment of the one aspect of WvW upon the other. And as you point out, it’s extremely expensive, such that it’s only obtainable by focusing on zerg warfare, sieging, and WXP ranking.

Fact remains that 450 stat points is a big glowing carrot for those who spend a lot of time working out their gear and builds, and the last thing we need is more WXP zerging.

Your entire view is flawed in my opinion. There is no challenge now. The number of quality players in this game diminishes patch by patch. The challenge for PvP in WvW has never been about facing even numbers and fighting it out, and thus extra stats might turn the tide of the fight, the challenge instead is entirely about fighting larger and larger groups than your own. Extra stats changes nothing other than increase the number of people we can take on.

I have no idea where this belief comes from that folks that play for PvP have no desire in progression, everyone enjoys some form of progression, why would WvW PvP folks be any different? If you didnt want progression at all, then you would more likely favor sPvP over WvW PvP. They are entirely different play styles regardless of all the bleaters that seem to think otherwise.

The WvW PvP crowd is not going to run around zerging for WXP points, they will always lag behind the zergs on points because the system favors the zerg.