Guild Wars 2

Brando.1374:

Solori.6025:

jportell.2197:

Maybe necro’s can get some of their bleeds back? I’m not a fan of condition builds in anyway but I seem to remember grasping dead and mark of blood having their bleeding reduced in sPvP I think that this was directly related to dumbfire and at the time Anet seemed so hellbent on keeping that stupid trait on a class that never needed it.

Well now that dumbfire is essentially gone from any decent necromancer build…. Can they get some of their bleeds back?

LoL no

wow thats some great feedback…

anyway to answer op I do thing they should Un-nerf the loss of bleeds on some of the necro skills.

He asked a question and I answered.
It’s not like he was wanting some complex formula or class comparison.

It twas a simple question with a simple answer.

Now if J wants elaboration I would be very willing to give said information and why my answer was no.

jportell.2197:

Maybe necro’s can get some of their bleeds back? I’m not a fan of condition builds in anyway but I seem to remember grasping dead and mark of blood having their bleeding reduced in sPvP I think that this was directly related to dumbfire and at the time Anet seemed so hellbent on keeping that stupid trait on a class that never needed it.

Well now that dumbfire is essentially gone from any decent necromancer build…. Can they get some of their bleeds back?

LoL no

Cecilia.5179:

Immobilize is the bane of an eles existence, along with chill. I would not complain if immobilize was unstackable again. :p

last time it was it’s own separate entity, and was harder if not impossible to remove immobilize

Now it stacks from multiple sources..
and can be removed
altogether..

But the only way this is a problem is when it’s you vs multiple people..
Which is a horrible debate in the first place because 1 v X is a horrible perspective for balancing decisions?

Sandpit.3467:

Good post (OP).

Sadly, yes, this is all about the toxicity of thieves. Probably the No. 1 reason why most players won’t go near PvP/WvW (Warrior OP being the second). And every thief in the game knows it and will post on forums like crazy to keep their toxicity fix. Just look how they reacted in GW1 forums when anyone dared suggest that perma was OP.

Not to worry though, ANet has it’s favored classes (and unfavored) and that isn’t going to change, ever.

What build and class do you play?

K U T M.4539:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Care to define and explain why it is “unskillful” play?

Why should immobilize be treated differently then any knock back, blow outs, daze, stun, cripple, and chill?

When they use hard cc on someone who’s already been hard cc’d, it overwrites it. When you immob someone who’s already been immob’d, it stacks.

Thank you for stating what has been mentioned already.

That still does not answer the question.

And I am still waiting on that list of spammable immobilizes outside of thief.

For example.
If I am in a 2 v 1 vs two burst thieves and one basalisk venoms me, then the other thief does the same thing when it wears off
Does basalisk venom become unskillful?
If I am chain dazed and stunned by two warriors, does stun become skill-less?

If I get shatter bursted by two mesmers
Does shatter become unskillfull?

If I get perma fear pingponged between two necromancer’s
Does fear become unskillfull?

Why are we even talking about 2 v 1 or 1 vs multiple anyway?

Scrib.9207:

Elidath.5679:

And complaining that against multiple opponents it gets you killed… well, you where outnumbered to begin with. What did you expect?

See, this is the thing, i was fighting outnumbered (although not at first), but i was actually winning that fight, until i got morphed, which completely turned everything around. Had i not gotten moa’d, i would have killed the elementalist that i was initially doing 1v1 against, and then either ran away from the mesmer, or killed him too if he was a baddie. So you have to understand that in the situation that i was in, it really felt to me like an i-win button.

wait wait..

So you would have killed the ele?

You realize that if you had him downed, and the mesmer had mass invis he woulda revived him, right?

and if a moa morph spelled the end for you, you couldnt have been winning by much..

“What class has an immobilize that is spammable?”

I already gave you one class that had one

Waiting on you to provide the rest of the spammable list.

If you arguement is “well two people can perma immobilize you”
Then the counter for that is two people can also kill you faster

I really hope that isn’t what you are trying to use as a counterpoint.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

TL;DR: After you use your stealth attack once, your #1 skill reverts to auto regardless of whether you left stealth or not. No stealth break, no reveal.

How about stealth skills can only be used once per stealth use?
What would happen upon a missed skill is not reveal or loss of stealth, but the stealth skill would just be replaced by the normal autoattack chain.
Active defenses still get some use but doesn’t horribly screw over stealthing because you could use a heartseeker or the like to clear off a blind/aegis, or even hard to catch. Literally the only thing this prevents is spamming the stealth skill until it hits, because after the first use you would be doing autos until another stealth effect was applied.
Sounds pretty fair to me honestly, it makes aegis, blind, dodging and other active defenses not entirely useless while not making them hardcounter stealth in any way, shape or form.

How do other people feel about this?

I like this.

It means people will need to pay attention to what they do in stealth.

Ok..Im not gona lie..
I did not read the OP..(sorry?)

But I would like to permanently acquire your belongings in the form of materials, gold or other stuff of valuable mention.

please..

I would also like to know how one spams immobilize like one would spam an AA

Here I’ll help you out.

Thieves- have a spammable immobilize on thief pistol..
It also means they cant use any of their other skills to actually kill you with.

Erzian.5218:

Portal, AoE condition removal, AoE boon removal, AoE daze, stealth, many blinks (good vs any melees except thief), decent-good aoe burst (standard staff/gs shatter mes)

While it might not excel at something, it brings a lot of utility even outside of portal and most of it affects more than 1 player.
However, since I dislike the mesmer design itself, I wont judge about whether they are viable or not but you should consider that it does see high level tpvp play, so I guess it is not as bad as the usual mesmer player pretends it to be.

Shatter mes…

You mean that thing that get’s 2 shot by thieves or wrecked by conditions?

Why would any sane person running Tpvp bring a shatter mes over a burst thief?

Like all the utility that you listed is useless when the person you are fighting is dead..
And that is something a burst thief can pretty much guarantee.

So why do I need to bring a squishy PREDICTABLE shatter mes?

Form.8741:

Some professions have NO effective counter for condition spam, including thief and, to some degree, Mesmer. They have limited useful condition removal and just can’t clear conditions nearly as fast as they get them. Thief is worst off because of a tiny health pool.
.

Oh no sir..

A thief can stealth and remove conditions, heal and remove conditions AND get into stealth, use sigil’s to transfer a condition, or shadow step away and remove conditions

Hell if a thief want’s to, they can jump in and out of stealth and not worry about conditions.

A mesmer is also the same just with clones
I fought a necro in Spvp who signet of spited me, I stealthed with torch and removed a condition, blinked away and cleared the rest.

Guess who got the rest of the necro marks?
The clones….

Oh and did I mention the awesome regen/aegis/prot I get oh so easily?

That isn’t even my final form..
A mesmer can trait to have great condition removal and high stealth/phantasm uptime.
But you lose out on PU
That sacrifice must be made though if you want to deal with the condition meta

There are not but’s to this..
If conditions give you trouble, build to counter them
I did and I am a MESMER!

zapv.8051:

Kilger.5490:

Gotta agree, hammer warrior is pretty cheese. Thats why they are so prevalent in wvw now, hammer trains everywhere. Just mauls everything in its path. Sure you can avoid it but anyone that isnt playing at a very high level of ability is just steam rolled. Pretty funny actually, needs fixing tho.

Pretty much this ^, you can call it a L2P issue if you want. The problem is it’s only at very high levels that people become very good at dealing with hammer warriors. Before that it’s just a steamroll.

On a mesmer
It doesn’t take a very high level..
It takes an understanding on what melee range is.
and for that mesmer to not be AFK.

Actually even not on a mesmer..
IF you know what your dodge key does you can get away from pretty much all of a hammer warrior’s attacks.

Fermi.2409:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Shards are readily available for karma.

To be fair, it can take a while to build the karma required for 450-500 shards. You’re looking at ~1m.

EoTM karma train says hi

This is a L2P issue.
Like a hardcore L2P issue.

You have stealth, invul, block, protection, teleport (x2 if you have a staff) and if you bring it a knockback as well as a daze…

You should never have trouble with a hammer warrior as a mesmer.

Yoh.8469:

Tim.6450:

• 2. Lack of Counter play.
  Partially for the reasons above, but also in addition the way conditions are removed in a very dime a dozen fashion, you don’t have to think about how to deal with conditions. One party applies them, the other removes them, end of transaction.
  Your only options for dealing with most conditions in either to wait and take the damage/effect, or remove them. A few professions such as the Necromancer also have the option to transfer them, or convert into boons (which is functionally identical to removal), however these tend to be the exception rather then the rule.
  It’s a very binary system, either they are on, or they are off, with little in the way of a middle ground such as mitigation.

So you can’t dodge, block, evade, … conditions anymore?

Mmm, your conflating two different things here, the skills themselves, and conditions.
Yes you have counter play with skills in general, for the most part, whether or not they deal conditions is beside the point.
However once conditions have been applied, there is no counter play.
You either wait or remove them, you have no other options. That was my point.

Well this is false, just like Direct damage, you have counter play.
If I dont want to be hit by signet of spite, i dodge, blind, or become invulnerable, and at worst i cleanse and heal.
If I dont want to be hit by a eviscerate I dodge, blind, or become invulnerable, and at worst I heal.

If i get hit by a direct damage attack, i have no choice but to heal depending on the damage done, i may even die half a second later.

Explain to me how you can stop a direct damaging attack from doing it’s full damage over time?

If a condition stay’s on you for a full duration, it does it’s full damage
While if a direct attack hits you
It does it’s full damage

As to everyone else, yeah there are plenty of other skills that are spammy, and that is also an issue. Just because I don’t bring it up and cry bloody murder doesn’t make my point any less valid. Personally I find that it is just more pronounced in conditions and boons, then direct damage. Thou, not by much.
It’s still a problem that should be dealt with.

What?!

So getting hit for 5k from a backstab is less pronounced then getting hit for 5k because you let someone stack 5 different conditions on you? and let them tick over time?!

This makes perfect sense.

Travis the Terrible.4739:

style.6173:

Solori.6025:

Fanta.8049:

1 year ago i reroll my ele as a thief counter …
And now im thief breakfast .
.

If you’re an ele you are everyone’s breakfest

and sometimes snack.

Not in WvW.

I eat eles like cookie monster eats cookies in wvw on my warrior regardless of what set up I run. Only time I don’t kill an ele in wvw is when the enemies zerg is bigger.

I have that same experience on my 4 toons as well..
Hell even my ranger does fine fighting ele’s.

Viking Jorun.5413:

• PBAoE – Engineer has far too much PBAoE for a conquest-based PvP format. Between bomb kit, grenade kit, toolkit, turret detonates and elixer throws, engineer by far has the absolute most offensive and defensive AoEs of any class, and can shotgun them at his feet on a whim, making kiting the only viable option for defeating them, and even at that point Grenade Kit has both the condition damage, direct damage, and soft CC to deal with even the peskiest of off-point burst mesmers.
• Condition Spam – ANet’s initial vision was for necromancer to be the condition class, however engineer has far surpassed the conditions output of the necro with the constant spamming of PBAoE fields and the ability to spam shuffle through their kits without punishment. This combined with the horribly imbalanced condition meta makes the engineer both tanky and have high damage output.
• Healing Output – Healing Turret blasted into its own water field after the initial pulse of healing has a higher HPS than warrior’s base healing signet/adrenal health/regeneration combo, and adds regeneration on top of that healing.
• Automated Response – This trait is entirely too powerful, and I’m ecstatic it’s getting nerfed. Running a Barbarian’s Amulet and jewel, I’m easily and comfortably able to maintain myself in the 1k-6.5k health range that is 25% of my 26k health, and more often than not a fight would be easier, even running only Healing Turret as my sole source of condition removal. Fights involving even two condition classes (say, a condi engie and condi necro) would last far longer than it would take for my team to reach far point and help me out, and eventually push the opposing side from their home point with my health still in tact.
• CC – This one’s a big point. Running my full turret build with rifle and APT, I had 6 sources of knockbacks/launches and one stun at my fingertips, and one of these CC skills always available even with the other 6 on cooldown when rotating correctly. This is a stretch since most engineer builds don’t have quite this much CC, but even when not investing into turrets they’ve got rifle, flamethrower, toolkit, APT (healing turret), and Supply Crate for 5 total CC skills while maintaining their survivability and gaining the benefits of kits and conditions, as well as mass AoEs as per mentioned earlier.

The engineer is, by far, the easiest class to master. The issue is that many people don’t play engineer because it’s hard to get into, but once you learn the rotations and what each skill does, you’ve essentially already mastered the class. Running a build like Teldo’s Bomb Build with heavy conditions only makes you look like a better player than you actually are due to the extremely forgiving nature of the class.

I disagree with you on a few points but not all.

For a game mode that promotes staying on a point, I will say, a decap engie is by far the hardest thing to fight.

I disagree with it’s ease of mastery.
It is far easier to pick and master a war, guard, or mesmer, than it is to pick up and master an engie.
This is through my own experience and the experience i have with fighting people in spvp,tpvp, and wvw.
So take that as a grain if you want, but the majority of engineers i face on my theif or mesmer have been horribad, with the small select few who actually pose a serious threat and challenge.

The engineer cant have the best CC AND have the best CC removal
Though if you know of a build that exist like this please make it and link it.

An Engineer’s healing I have seen is also great when you learn how to properly blast inside of the turrents overcharge

The PBAoE is a mixed bag,
While I appreciate the PBAoE in zerg’s and spvp content.
It is entirely useless when an enemy has room to run and kite without worry of an objective.
So with the DM coming next week I am eager to see how well this helps in that game mode where the objective is to kill and not worry about points.

Honestly though I think the engineer is one of the classes that has a few good things for it, but not too much like the warr and not too little like an ele.
You are rewarded for smart play with the engineer, spamming your moves off cooldown honestly dont help you when you fight people that have a clue.

MrDmajor.7084:

The same people who say “no trinity” “no roles” are the same ones complaining about Zerker “meta” and making other “builds” more viable. It’s an all dps game. Moar damage pls.

Not really.
I know a lot of people that would rather the dungeons and content reward you for having group diversity and build diversity rather than going straight dps, which is the problem now.

Anet isn’t addressing that issue, rather they are taking the easy way out and making things take 3 seconds longer to kill with the overall DPS nerf.

We need mechanics that reward you for having condition damage.
That reward you for build something with healing power or toughness.

Right now, if you dont go full DPS, you aren’t running at full efficiency.
This game was designed to be a dps race.
Anet needs to introduce other systems in this game that reward players and groups for not sticking in one Zerker meta.

I would love to see the new dragon with minion that are immune to damage unless you condition their shield off. Or a boss that has a mechanic that damages you for a percentage of your power or has an attack that is directly mitgated through your toughness stat and either you have the healing power to heal the damage or you have the toughness to mitigate it.

Something to promote diversity.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

They also need to edit bosses to have significantly fewer, if any, one-shot attacks that render all defensive gear worthless. When any hit kills you, regardless of what you build, you might as well go pure damage.

They should also make bosses and mobs like they did in the scarlett event, where you need condition damage to kill it or render it vulnerable.

Until all this changes though, Zerker is still the way to go.

Mouby.7096:

a t s e.9614:

So your only argument to say that warriors are good in duels is Hambow. Sadly hambow is not balanced and will get nerfed what is left is terrible specs. The only way to win is pop all stances and hopefully your burst will land without getting blinded or without your enemy porting away. Not to mention that poison literaly makes Healing sig useless.

A warrior is like a PvE mob, hits slowly, hits hard,Has alot of HP, thats about it

“The only way to win”….wait what? I thought we’re talking about warriors? So you think it’ll help to blind or poison a warrior who pops all of his stances…..aright, i don’t know if you’ve ever heard of berzerkers stance. Maybe you just don’t know the fact that blindness and poison are actually “conditions”?

Even without berzerker stance a warrior can use Lyssa and/or remove up to 3 conditions every 7 seconds!

Warriors are bad in duels….

Are you kidding me?

Well, against bad players
Warriors are great in duels.

Against players that have a clue
It gets significantly harder for a warrior to be successful with a hambow setup

There is a reason why only hotjoin hero’s and WvW players use hambow

OK somewhere I am doing this math wrong…

So with a warrior
I did
857*2194*563 / 2628 and i got 715,654

I did something wrong T_T

Fanta.8049:

1 year ago i reroll my ele as a thief counter …
And now im thief breakfast .
.

If you’re an ele you are everyone’s breakfest

and sometimes snack.

Silv.9207:

Condition Damage don’t do more damage than Direct Damage.
A DD build can do 50-100% more damage than a CD build (depends on class, etc)
But if you compare 2 enemy fighting. A pure DD and a pure CD.
DD has a very high damage, but low health, low toughness, no healing ability, low ability to remove conditions.
CD has high healt or toghness, can obtain different kind of CC and defensive skills whitout damage it’s build and can deal a good damage over time.

In what world did my DD warrior build lose its defensive abilities, its healing abilities, and its abilities to lower condi duration and cleanse the heals?

In what world did my mesmer also lose its defensive abilities towards condition damage?

This started out as hyperbole when in fact a zerker theif, hambow warrior, or any type of mesmer does very well when dealing with any other class 1 v 1 or 2 v 1 if you play against people that absolutely suck.

If DD deal 1.5-2k x attack every 0.50-1 sec, you can deal in 2 sec 4-6k of damage. But your healt is low, you have not healing ability and your defensive ability is like no existing. Ad you Must stay in a Melee Range.

since when?
And since when has it been hard for any class to stick in melee range?

Havent had a problem with it on my theif, or war, or mes.

Or even my power necro

A DD class can obtain 12-20k hp. You need 3 sec to build up your condition damage (and in that 3 sec you deal Condition and Direct Damage) and betwen 6-10 sec to kill your enemy whit 2k damage x sec. If the enemy has 17k hp, you need 10-12 sec to kill your enemy. If he don’t clean all your conditions (and a pure DD can’t clean more than 3 conditions every 1x sec), when you build up your stack of CD you can run, dodge, use all your defensive skills and attack by range to apply new stacks of conditions because all CD weapons gran 900+ of range to attack the enemy by a safe distance.

That all make a CD better than a DD.

(P.s. sorry for my bad english)

Since when can I not clear conditions?
a thief healing and sitting in stealth will remove 3 + 1 per second while not getting new one’s because of stealth.

Unless your opponent is very good a mesmer is going to get hit by conditions very little, simply because of stealth and clones and the 2 ( 4 ways if traited) sure fire ways to remove around 5 conditions and then go back to avoiding them.

A warrior has many condi removal tools and can stay pretty much immune to them for ungodly amount’s of time.

A necromancer can eat or return them to the source.

What DD build doesn’t take condi removal?
In this day of pvp what SMART player doesn’t take condi removal?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

If you’re going to be doing comparisons, there are several things to look at:

#1: Tooltip armor is listed assuming 2600 armor rating of the target. Adjust tooltip damage accordingly by using the formula: Tooltip Damage x 2600/(armor) = adjusted damage.

#2: Attack rate and attack frequency. How much damage is done means very little when it takes forever, so a DPS comparison is often more important than a damage comparison. So, take the following into account:

Attack activation time
Attack post-activation delay
Attack chains and skill rotation
Length of these attack rotations
Recharge time of attacks

#3: How to consider conditions. There are two ways to consider it: conditions can be seen as a total amount of damage with a delayed effect (thus, for any attack that applies conditions, you can say that attack does x amount of damage, and takes y number of seconds to execute). This method can compare the efficiency of attacks, and can be compared to power builds on a blow by blow basis.

Second way is to consider conditions as a scaling DPS. While power is static, conditions take awhile to build steam, so you’ll have to consider stuff like the average number of sustained stacks of conditions a build can have, as well as the average uptime of non permanently sustained conditions. This can graph the growth and sustain of damage via conditions that has better real world implication, but nonetheless is a pain to actually do.

I wish you the best of luck. I’ve done a few spot comparisons in the past, but I’ve never done a full “analyze all builds compared to all other builds”.

Yeaaa I will need all the luck I can muster, and I will take that into consideration, first though I want to get the raw number’s before I start taking in factors, for example, with runes of lyssa, you wont have a max stat of every condition, or with -condi duration runes and food, it is unlikely to hit a high stack of any condition, you throw in random removal’s then you have a checkers board of variables. The same can be said for power attacks if they are all melee ( but seriously the only class that should have that issue is the ele) If your target is out of range you dont do damage, if they mistime a dodge though, you could land a big hit on them and there goes the fight or advantage they had. Or if you’re a warrior you can auto attack for 2k -3k on an axe.

To- re iterate==
This will not be a few day, or few weeks thing, because I am bad, and not well versed in math…

BUT
Builds are much appreciated..

Brando.1374:

Solori.6025:

Thank you good sir

here is a full soldiers necro set. (-65% condi duration)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNAnYWjc00SbNNO2whbiA6x7rlziZcshRfocA-z0BBofCikFRkIAI1sIaslRFRjVZDT9iIqOAACA7cn7cn7cnlCgJhRA-w

Thank’s again brando

I will use these two build’s first in the comparison.

Also, to note.

Condition needs duration and to have the most conditions per second you need the extra proc from sigil’s

For classes that dont have great access to conditions precision is a must, or you can be outconditioned by everyone else that does get the proc’s

its like

if a dire build has an auto attack that put’s one bleed vs a rabid who’s auto attack put’s on two
in the long run who has more bleed dps?
sure the dire has a fluff of vit, and for some classes that is better..

But take for example a mesmer v mesmer one in dire and one in rabid..

The rabid mesmer will win, simply because of the higher bleed uptime from sharper images ( greatsword clones hurt)

Thank you good sir

I need Builds

So that I can get some idea of an accurate comparison. I’m looking for build’s that are viable, and that work.

Not some mystical unicorn that has access to 12 sigil’s and 7k toughness.

Anyone willing to post either a soldier’s build or a dire build that works?

Using this calculator or something similair that show’s weapon damage tooltips?
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

Hi Everyone.
So for the past few weeks I have noticed that people have been saying " nah ah Conditions are OP" and then the other’s on the fence are saying " Nah ah conditions dont do as much dps as powa"

So I am going to try and gather number’s using the equations from the wiki

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

and the one for crit and crit damage

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 – Critical Chance ) + Base damage * ( Critical Chance * (Critical Damage + 1.5) )
Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 – Critical Chance + Critical Chance * (Critical Damage + 1.5) )
Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage + 0.5) )

Question.

What class are people sticking in Dire?
Besides thief?

A lot of classes would be benefited more from having Rabid and a few pieces of dire vs going full dire, because of the proc’s from sigil’s or traits.

So just simple curiosity..

I should also note that I am doing this because I am going to try and make a numerical comparison of dire v soldiers
dire v knights
rabid v knights
then rabid v zerk and dire v zerk
Though we all know that zerk outdamages them some people need to see that in number’s before they actually believe it.

Any real mathematician is welcome to help ( please o god help me)
And if you have a build that is run by the majority of the meta that you want to offer up then send me a message with it.

I also am no expert at Excel, so anyone that is great at plugging in formula’s and doesnt have an anxiety attack from math, you are welcome to help also.

Because once we have the number’s we can then start to factor in the access to both condition damage removal and regeneration effects.

For condition damage we have a site that actually calculates everything but torment.
http://gw2.hazno.net/

Torment formula is
(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + (0.375 * Level) + 1.875 per stack per second
(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + 31.875 per stack per second at level 80
According to the wiki.

-P.S.
I am a musician so math is really not my strong suit and I will be doing my best to be accurate, also this will take me some time to compile with RL stuff so don’t expect this to be done in a few days or weeks. Again, anyone that is actually interested in helping the community and good with math ( or a dev with these number’s already that would like to post a spreadsheet- HINT HINT) is welcome to help

Question.
What class are people sticking in Dire?
Besides thief?

A lot of classes would be benefited more from having Rabid and a few pieces of dire vs going full dire, because of the proc’s from sigil’s or traits.

So just simple curiosity..

Edit..actually I’ll just make a new thread about it

Rezzet.3614:

Solori.6025:

oZii.2864:

mrauls.6519:

Confusion needs to be toned down :|

Again? Nobody complains about confusion in spvp so I doing they do a WvW only change since it is a non factor in spvp

Actually Ozii

This was already nerfed in the PvE/WvW side.
The reason people are all of a sudden noticing it now is because of the runes.
and Perplexity Runes are getting nerfed in 2 weeks as well.
SOOOOOO …If people are still having trouble with confusion after the patch, i dont even know what to tell you

the nerf is so small players will still be able to insta slap 22 confusion stacks

No they wont, unless the star’s aline in your favor, the likelyhood of someone getting 20+ stacks of confusion on an engie with the runes after the nerf IS unlikely, that is fact.
Do you play an engi?
and have you played good thieves or warriors?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Azukas.1426:

Not sure if OP is serious

He can’t be, that or he is the WORST warrior in the history of GW2. I have seen one that has been able to keep insane numbers of immobilize, fear and insane damage meanwhile having blocks and immunities….

Warrior are FAR from terrible in Duels. They will win more than they lose. Unless the Warrior is awful.

umm.. a warrior is not going to trounce a mesmer in a duel, and a warrior is going to have a wonderfully fun time fighting the theif that spam’s invis and backstab.
Some classes the warrior does super well against, like an ele ( but who doesnt do well against an ele) some classes can outplay or outmanuever a warrior, like an engi, but the warrior is far from the god of dueling that you think.

That role is for the mesmer, and will stay that way until they nerf us to oblivion thanks to the new trait’s

phys.7689:

THE Dentist.5960:

Once again, the Rodney Dangerfield of Silver League. NSP gets no respect, lol. Proud of the hard work a lot of people have put into it. Been a much more fun matchup against BP and SBI, compared to having the masses of HoD. Keep it up my fellow NSPers.

Btw my prediction is

HoD
FA
SBI
YB
IoJ
NSP
CD
BP
SOR

I think SBI and Yaks is hard to figure, I think IOJ could compete with them, but i dont know if they have the desire/belief.
NSP is def doing better, they went from barely making silver,to moving up3-4 spots.

FA isnt completely out of it, still got to see what happens in weekdays, and FA ability to adapt to the situation. But it will be tough. Even if we win one, HOD could take it back, and if we win, we will probably see them often

think it’s way too early to discredit FA.
They have T1 tactics.
I have noticed that in Zerg fight’s there commander’s have little or no tail on there zergs which is either through excellent co-operation and organization or some really really good scouting.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

pierwola.9602:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Look what Condi Necro

and this is the only thing that they can do right now.
chill/cripple(mobility), weakness(vigor), poison(healing abilities), chill/weakness(immunity)

Ignoring the Burning? The Bleeding? The Poison up time is VERY annoying as well. Scepter/Focus offers – Bleeding(2×4seconds) and Poison(4seconds) on Auto attack every 1.5seconds. Cripple(5seconds) and Bleeding(2 stacks 7 seconds) every 10 seconds. 12stacks of Vul every 18 seconds Though the regen helps them as well and Chill + Boon removal every 20 seconds. This is based ONLY on the skills. No traits. No added stats.

Then add in another weapon set. 6 condition application on a 60second cool down among other skills and you can see why Condition Necro is very strong. Fast easy to apply and spammable conditions. Poison should NOT be on an auto attack chain that takes 1.5seconds to complete and lasts for 4 seconds with no duration food or anything. Then you have The Bleeding, Chill, Torment, Immbolize and Fear from the DeathShroud skills as well.

coglin.1867:

I mean you contradict yourself in all of your elementailist post, demanding that they have more conditions

That is quite simple – If you can’t beat them. Join them. Though i have to say i enjoy playing my condition build MUCH more than i did when i played the condition build on other classes – Played Condi Engineer, Condi Necro and Condi Mesmer. The Ele just feels balanced when it comes to conditions.

We have to sacrifice Rune set, Sigils and damage to have a good condition condition build. I find hybrid to be the worst of both worlds.

Of course if i had the choice: Bring others to ele condition standard. In that they have to make sacrifices and can’t spam conditions. Examples being Engineer and Grenades. Plus Ele has no option of switching to range and spam conditions like Warrior, like Mesmer, like Necro.

You dont know what sacrifice is until you make a condi guardian.

oZii.2864:

mrauls.6519:

Confusion needs to be toned down :|

Again? Nobody complains about confusion in spvp so I doing they do a WvW only change since it is a non factor in spvp

Actually Ozii

This was already nerfed in the PvE/WvW side.
The reason people are all of a sudden noticing it now is because of the runes.
and Perplexity Runes are getting nerfed in 2 weeks as well.
SOOOOOO …If people are still having trouble with confusion after the patch, i dont even know what to tell you

Zenith.7301:

Now imagine a condi spec being able to permablind you for 8 seconds and make every attack you do for those 8 straight seconds miss while they continue to damage you.

Now say that isn’t OP. Because it’s the same crap. Warriors saying condis applied previously still exist are dishonest taking into account rune of lyssa and cleansing ire.

And 8 seconds is PLENTY of time for a warrior to easily take out at least 80% of your health.

Lyssa is getting nerfed…soon everyone is going to go back to melandru runes and just stack up anti condi duration.

…8 seconds…on a 60 second CD..

Name a condition that can only be applied every 60seconds..

dont worry I’ll wait

MiLkZz.4789:

In WvW you can get a full dire engineer with 3.2k condition damage and 50% condi duration (from food alone), burn will tick for 1.2k/s, poison for 400/s.

I roamed with it and mostly things die when you drop the supply crate, play very passively and defensively and nothing kills you. You can build completely around that you have a low crit chance. And you are tanky as kitten.

I play a full rabid engi aswel with PU and interrupts, don’t think you can lose a 1vs1 with that. Got to admit it ain’t that easy to play but those condi bursts are insane.

Here my friend playing with his condi thief, just look at how fast those health bars melt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRTuNyTIfo

Conditions do way to many things, debuffing every single stat/thing possible and dealing way to much damage/s. It’s to easy to kite with them and just to easy to apply. I mean stacking 10stacks of bleed (ain’t hard) + poison + burn + torment = 3.8k dmg/s. And then I am not even counting confussion in. Apply and play defensively, while the power build has to go defensively aswel to remove them, dealing no damage in the process. Not to mention that most condition dealing skills deal regular damage aswel, not much but it counts up.

I roam 70%-80% of my time in WvW and play 15 hours/day, and I am forced to spec really heavy into condition removal just do stand a chance against condition classes. This cuts my damage by a lot. Mostly I still win because they play bad, but sometimes you meet that skilled necro and you just don’t stand a single chance, doesn’t matter how well you play.

The only thing I have seen in this thread is people trying to compare rabid with dire and PVT? I mean seriously? That ain’t even the problem, didn’t anyone read my post? Yes rabid is most likely superior to dire, but some builds get way to many benefits from dire. And PVT ain’t even close in comparrison to these 2. Full PVT with melandru will hit around 800 and 1.2k with his strongest attacks against a full dire. And that full dire guy will melt him, just use the +40% condi duration food and some in your traits and GG.

Now focus again on the problems, how to counter low telegraphed condition spam skills, working from range, the cheer amount of conditions out there, immob chaining, the fact conditions 100% debuff power builds into oblivion. How to fix them in large fights and how to fix them in small fights.

Conditions are broken, no way to deny it.

1.
How are you getting 3k condition damage and +50% condi duration on a viable build for an engineer?

And then explain how you are keeping up a maximum of 25 might stacks at all times?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vcAQJAqOGRGVg0A9AAAgR8zDAAAgQA-z0BB4iBkCAgWAMTtIasl1FRjVJjIqWpELAACwMLzAY8iX8iX8inZOzZOzZOzSBAx0I-w

( you may also want to explain how you live through burst, other condi builds, or builds that can hit you while lowering the overall duration of your conditions, or make a vid )

Also anyone in the CD,NSP matchup wanna fight me with a condi build latr tonight?
This is the build I use on my warrior

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vIAQNBiYDbkpjGP78wKEORDIoHaYVwFKFzBdkUgGsBA-zEyAoLB5sXR0YLjFRjVNDpXw0lJVpGYXCRWNZAY2CA-w

I have cleric items because im poor…

dont judge me…

P.S.

If I have to deal with a mesmer, I am bringing mine

No…No one else gets pre and power from one stat. if you dont want to invest in condi duration then that’s on you, there are too many ways in game already to get duration, you dont need to break the balance between direct and condi builds already.

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

Yes missing an instant case, Happens a lot to be honest.
Asura animation issues go both ways so not really fair in this discussion.
Dumbfire is a nerf for most necros since they are bad and rely on spam to proc burning and keep spamming.
you need reliable stability and the ability to stun the necro and make him waste his cool downs.

If you go with 1 stability Corrupt Boon will make it worse than having none, if you go with 2 you better dodge that Spinal Shivers and hope your not close to 50% health for the first time if you somehow know he even has Chill of Death. If you go with 1 stun break he can still fear you for 8+ seconds depending on whether its Reaper’s Protection, Doom or Reaper’s Mark, 2 is enough for non-Reaper’s Protection builds if one of them has less than a 30 second cooldown, 3 is the only way to survive a Reaper’s Protection build if you have CC and then you slowly die from lack of condition removal as you get kited by his perma chill.

fear is a condition that can be cleansed, if a necro gets you between his wall and marks/DS you were outplayed

Especially as a thief who can literally sit in stealth and remove conditions or shadow step away, force the necro to use his CD’s then come back and finish the job.

Or perma blind the necro while trololol 2 spam

question, what auto attack is hitting you while you are stealthed?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Solori.6025:

Well with the new patch we are going to see some condi shatter’s because of the news GM trait.

Mesmer has in my experience great access to conditions mainly because of the stealth uptime which, depending on how you are built, is really decent.

You forgot to add that on top of having confusion last 33% longer we also have a phantasm that add’s 3 stacks of confusion on a relatively low CD and we can have multiple of them.

Shattering illusions can grant you anywhere from 3-8 stacks of confusion ( the 8 comes from the runes that will be nerfed ((lol)) )

I wouldn’t say our confusion upkeep is worse than an engineer’s. I would say our burst confusion is worse, but our sustain is much greater.

From my experience from playing both classes I fear mesmer condi’s much more than I fear engineer’s

That is true, though i didn’t see any number of how many Stacks the Torment would inflict, it could be a VERY solid option when you combine it with the 5point trait. The problem with Mesmer is when they go up against another Condi build. They have terrible access to condition removal.

True..if they dont build or plan around it.

Usually if I fight another condi build, depending on what it is I save my invuln’s and evades for their " shazam" combo.

Fighting a necro however, i will admit, they give me a really good run for my money if i step on a well placed or lucky mark.

The Phantasm though is rather poor. I just never really have liked the Torch.

Torch is a greatly overlooked weapon, and so is it’s trait.

For me torch is an added condition removal as well as a great re-positioning tool.
Probably the reason why I dont mind fighting condi builds on my mesmer.

Totally agree. You have better sustain of confusion where as Engineer as MUCH the better burst and that itself is part of the problem. Who would take sustain of a couple of stacks of Confusion throughout the fight over being able to burst Confusion i have seen some Engineers alone hitting upwards of 16 stacks and that is without Perplexity and all the knockbacks and everything they have.

I know of the combo and it takes one condi cleanse to clear that immediately.

But the combo itself isnt the easiest to pull off either and requires the opponent to sit in an immobilize and forget to cleanse it or use a move to become invulneable, or re-position themselves away from the oncoming prybar.

This is one of those instances where if you get caught inside of this you deserve to suffer for it.

Having played Condi builds against both, Engineer is much harder to fight. If the Mesmer is pure Condi they just don’t have enough direct damage to really get you down faster than you can heal up (i play Condi Ele) Where as Engineer just has SO many conditions that they can easily spam, unless you are specifically built to counter them and they are semi decent you will lose.

I haven’t seen a good condi ele as of yet, but i have seen a lot of PVT tank ele’s recently.
How do you deal with necro’s? as a condi ele?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Coglin, while you are correct that Dire < Soldier’s for DPS, he does have a point that you never actually link the numerical evidence you are using. I ask that you do so.

Tim posted evidence of this on the first page.

There is also a search function on this forum.

It’s not a matter of it not being there..
It’s a matter of the OP not wanting to find it.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

To be honest, i don’t think Warrior or Engineer should have Confusion at all. Also i count nerfs to 3 classes – Warrior Engineer and a minor one to Thief. Remember Engineer has access to stealth AND has better confusion access than Mesmer.

Mesmer Confusion:

Confusing Images – Channeled 1 stack per 1 second. 12second Cool down
Chaos Armor – RNG Proc. 35second cool down
Cry of Frustration – 30 second cool down. Max 3 stacks

Confusing Combatants – 25point trait. 1 stack of Confusion on clone death.
Illisionary Retribution – 5 point trait. Adds 1-3 stack of confusion to each shatter skill
Blinding Befuddlement – 1 stack of confusion on blind. 5 second cool down

That is the access Mesmer get. It looks decent, but in actual gameplay it doesnt really work out like that. For the class that was meant to be the Confusion class they have rather poor access to it compared to say Engineer. No one takes (or should take) Blinding Befuddlement. IR is rather weak unless you are high up in Illusions, in which case you are more than likely a shatter build. Could be Condi-Shatter.

Well with the new patch we are going to see some condi shatter’s because of the news GM trait.

Mesmer has in my experience great access to conditions mainly because of the stealth uptime which, depending on how you are built, is really decent.

You forgot to add that on top of having confusion last 33% longer we also have a phantasm that add’s 3 stacks of confusion on a relatively low CD and we can have multiple of them.

Shattering illusions can grant you anywhere from 3-8 stacks of confusion ( the 8 comes from the runes that will be nerfed ((lol)) )

I wouldn’t say our confusion upkeep is worse than an engineer’s. I would say our burst confusion is worse, but our sustain is much greater.

From my experience from playing both classes I fear mesmer condi’s much more than I fear engineer’s

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

NinjaEd.3946:

Why would they nerf the class, who was here to start with, and not nerf the runes? Can you explain that? So because Mesmer and engineer already have confusion and cc, and perplex adds more, you think they should just nerf the class? What if they don’t use perplex?

People are ridiculous in thinking these nerfs were unjustified. Runes were meant to fill the shoes of a build, not the meta (conditions).

So you think that nerfing a trait on a warrior and nerfing access to a condition on Engineer is really that big of a class nerf? They clearly felt the Confusion was too much and yet they have a trait on Warrior that gives LONGER duration Confusion with NO cool down and think that is fine? This is what i am talking about. That trait shouldn’t even be in the game or at least be given a 25-30second cool down and the amount of access to Confusion Engineer already has is insane.

You put this runeset on a Condition class that DOESN’T either have insane access to confusion or a insane amount of interrupts and it is fine. However when it is given to classes that have all of them it becomes VERY strong.

So why nerf the rune that was BALANCED for some classes instead of nerfing the few that was able to abuse it. This is Anets problem, it always has been they are terrible when it comes to balance.

All it would have taken is add a cool down to the Warrior trait and reduce the insane access to Confusion that Engineers have and it would have been fine.

As i have already said Mesmer is pretty much fine. They don’t have a lot of spammable CC or anything that can abuse it and the Confusion they do have is rather low in duration. Then look at Warrior insane number of interrupts and a trait that has NO cool down that can spam Confusion. Then look at Engineer who has A LOT of access to both confusion AND Interrupts. All that needed to be done:

Warrior:
Distracting Strikes: Add a 25-30 second Cool down.

Engineer:
Static Shot – reduce duration from 3 to 2seconds.
Pry Bar – Reduce Stacks from 5 to 3. Increase cool down to 20 seconds
Concussion Bomb – Reduce stacks from 5 to 3. Increase cool down to 25 seconds.

Thief:
Head Shot – increase Initiative from 4 to 6

That is pretty much it. That would mean the Runeset would still be strong but not insanely strong with specific classes that can abuse them unlike other classes that can’t. Of course anyone that actually plays these classes would say no because who would want the class you play to be nerfed (well really fixed) even when its something that is SO obviously broken and abused they still would rather it stay that way (Warrior Mobility for example)

If you are going to nerf confusion for one class you do it for all..not just conveniently leave the class that has access to a lot of confusion and decent stealth up-time out of the equation.

Or…we could just nerf warrior’s

..like…
Why do they even have confusion?! 0_o

oZii.2864:

Jackums.3496:

No. The defensive stats gained from running Dire greatly out-weighs the minimal additional on-proc bonuses of the crit-based outlets, with the exception of Dhuumfire/Incendiary Powder; which requires little precision as both have a 10 sec CD.

Condition specs do damage over time. They don’t instantly burst down a target like a Thief or Mesmer running a power build. Therefore they rely on their ability to survive to be fully effective. Dire gear is objectively the best stat combination for that in PvP game modes. Condition duration is attained through trait lines and food (Rare Veggie Pizza). Precision, if you really want it, is also easy to attain through consumables and sigil stacks.

They’re worlds apart. Don’t compare power build investment to condition build investment, because it’s laughable. Condition builds can attain near maximum damage output whilst also achieving bunker-like defensive stats. Power builds can’t even come close with the mandatory heavy investment in three separate stats.

Your sig says you have a mesmer why not go run around in dire gear as a pu mesmer and run around in rabid as a pu mesmer. I have a mesmer and I would never even think about throwing dire gear on it because the loss of bleeds via sharper images drops your dps by alot.

Your running duelist on your mesmer in a condi build. You have 14% chance to crit because you went full dire your duelist has a 1% chance to cause a bleed during it’s attack 34%(with phantasmal fury) = 2.72%.

It is very hard to kill anyone decent with on death traits alone even if your running staff clones it will still take a long time to kill someone with 14% crit chance.

^This.
If you think going full dire on a mesmer is going to yield more DPS and conditions than a full rabid or rampager mesmer you’re doing wrong..

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Simonoly.4352:

Sounds like a far more balanced rune set now. Even with the 8 second ICD on the interrupt bonus, these runes have continued to be remarkably face-rollish in WvW. They would honestly be ridiculous in their current state in sPvP so this is definitely a positive change.

Its not the runes that made them faceroll easy. It was specific classes that already had good/insane access to Confusion. Warrior, Engineer and Mesmer were the worst ones with it. Thief thanks to being able to spam interrupts 3 or 4 times in a row with certain builds weren’t exactly easy to fight either.

They will continue to be strong because the root issue has been ignored – the classes that can abuse them have not been fixed so they can’t. Even with the nerf to it this is still a very strong Runeset for them, it just means for other classes that used them because they were a new condition its just a big nerf.

It’s funny because this only is a nerf to classes that didnt have confusion before

This is still going to be viable for 3 classes
and maybe necro that tank’kittens in DS..

gG condi ele’s :P

penelopehannibal.8947:

Just in case I’m right – SPOILER ALERT – but it’s a guess!

.
.
.
.
(The vendor will be an April Fool’s Prank I bet :p)

I will rage if it is….

Not even kidding..

It will be like francis when he didnt get into SWTOR beta

GROMIT.7829:

I am from Aurora Glade EU (Stop laughing)

Not even gonna lie…I laughed ..I laughed a lot…and now I am going to be yelled at for browsing forums in the office on the clock

Ithilwen.1529:

Yet another awful night in WvW. With an Ascended weapon and 5 Ascended accessories, I can’t even make a credible effort at defeating most other classes.

Here’s my suggestion;

Make Mesmer Phantasms rezzable in the same way that Necromancer pets are, and retargetable.

My Necromancer with second rate gear does far better in WvW than the Mesmer I’ve already invested far too much time and effort in.

My only function in WvW at this point as a Mesmer is to give easy kills to noob zerg trains.

Well Mesmer’s are basically veil bots in a zerg

That isnt where there strength is.

A Mesmer is better suited for roaming, or small havoc groups, and 1v1.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/List-Find-your-Mesmer-Builds-Guides

That’s a list of different guides and builds for a mesmer.

If you want a class to zerg with

Necro-Guardian-Ele- will pretty much guarantee you tags in a zerg.

If you want to do well in 1v1 or solo roaming

engi-theif-mesmer-warrior

You are also thinking of mesmer as a pet class..

Dont.

It isnt and hasnt been since BW1.
Instead of thinking of phantasm’s as a pet.

Think of them as an attack that linger’s that you can re-use in the next 15-20 seconds.

Ooooohh man..

The interruption mesmer’s are going to be fantastic to fight -_-

Time to change my build and learn a new style I guess