Guild Wars 2

Elfindale.4836:

your are blurring the issue, my good sir, what you are saying here is that if you trait something, it has to be that way even it is unbalanced.
for the sake of discussion I would again remind everyone there is a fine line between, enhanced and overpowered, and the case for something to be unbalanced and overpowered will tends to happen when they are enhanced drastically.
steal is exactly the case.

So can I expect a similair thread to
-
Medi Guardians—no tell for interupting meditations which heal

Fresh Air Ele- No tell for burst rotation with air and lightning flash

Mantra Mesmer- No tell to which mantra will hit you, especially for mantra of Distraction and Pain

Necro fear- No tell for CC fear or DS fear and marks are not clear.

All of these classes can build for something. And the majority in this thread seem to want tell’s for something.

Why not start with the mesmer mantra’s, Give Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain a 2 second wind up so they can be dodged now that they are AoEs

Why not nerf mesmer daze duration so it doesnt stack. Make mantra’s half a second, and diversion 1 sec max daze, so it doesn’t stun lock players who have little or no access to stability

when an average class invest 30 points in a tree, they get a enhanced tool kit, everything within that tool kit get a little more awesome than before, it is fine.
in case of trickery, the only thing that gets enhanced is steal, the line benefit reduce recharge on steal, the thing that people are forced to pick promote one particular skill among everything in the theif’s tool kit, the steal. something you rarely see in other classes.

So your telling me a medi guardian, shatter mes, turrent engi, LB power ranger..
All who focus traits for one weapon, or utility.
Are not in the same boat as a thief, who focus’s on steal?

to summarize, what I have listed above has given enough foundation as to where an overpowered and unbalanced skill to be born out of all the heavy enhancement it has gone through with two additional built-in factors.
1. instant cast from range.
2.lack of telegraph and proper indications/hint.

If we change one for one class, you do it for all.
You can’t have your cake and eat someone elses pie too.

If we nerf one instant cast skill from range for one class.
Nerf instant cast skills from range for all classes.
So we dont have this discussion again.

I gave a list. Let’s add more,
Turrent action from engi
Kit swapping from engi

arcane blast and pulse for ele- are instant cast skills and need a tell

All the skills in plague form have no tell.

animations from stealth need to remove stealth, it removes counter play entirely.

BlackBeard.2873:

Solori.6025:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Please nerf. Thank you.
From,
-a thief player

I’m leveling a second thief and I approve this message..

Also please nerf engi’s and medi guardians.

Mesmers are ok, please leave them how they are, right?

yea mesmer’s are the most balanced class.
Necro’s are in a really good place too.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Please nerf. Thank you.
From,
-a thief player

I’m leveling a second thief and I approve this message..

Also please nerf engi’s and medi guardians.

st desnuss.5738:

could someone link me the video of the final in China ?

WTS……Doesnt this mean Want to Sell?

Cause that’ what I thought when i saw this title

Simon.3794:

Skrill.6170:

Simon.3794:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

it takes 12 traits ( minor ones included )to make steal as strong it is yet you feel your kittening is justified i bet …………………….people.

so, mesmer has 12 traits, but are shatters as strong as steal?
warrior has 12 traits, but are burst skills as strong as steal?

why to justify……hmmmmm…

Mesmer shatters:
1 – deals high dmg
2 – applies 1 stack confusion
3 – daze
4 – 5 stacks vulnerability
5 – evade all attacks for 1 sec
6 – interrupt with f3 applies 3 stacks vulnerability
7 – every shatter applies 1 stack vulnerability
8 – every shatter applies 1 stack confusion
9 – f2 grants 5 sec retaliation
10 – instant recharge all shatters at 50% hp
11 – shattering illusions grants might
12 – shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well
13 – every shatter skill is aoe
14 – when midwrack/cry crits, you get vigor
15 – mindwrack deals 20% more dmg
16 – every shatter removes a boon on hit
17 – every shatter is instant cast
18 – shatter recharge reduced by 30%
19 – shatter effects get stronger for every illusion shattered
20 – can be activated from long range
.
wahh shatter too stronk wahh
.
.
Yes, your shatters are just as strong as steal. My point is.. yes u get extremely strong skills if u heavily trait into the corresponding trait lines.

shatter is not as strong, 1st it’s so easy to dodge unlike steal, even at melee range is so easy to dodge, no body would ever use it at long range, shatter is melee ranged, if you can’t see clones walking slowly to you then it’s really L2P, 2nd it’s 4 buttons not one. 3rd of all, mesmer not my main, i just play it like i play thief, mesmer, warrior, engi, necro, cuz you know, learn about other classes and counter plays make you better, in fact i have more time on my thief then most of the classes.

OT: i was playing non trickery thieves 4 signet 1 shot trolol build, and these trickery thieves just abuse steal so much, getting carried by it, and act like they are good. so sad, it’s like people playing PU and think they are good. unreal. for the ones i’ve countered today, without trickery steal hit they can’t even win, even tho i’m freaking 4 signets. not to mention that i’m freaking human and they are asuras ( gg standard enemy models gets undone after stealth.)

I can’t tell what this thread is about anymore.

The logic of this is god awful and the things listed as relevant are sad.

Anything that is traited heavily, as a main focus in a build, will be powerful.
Did people forget that was a thing?

If a warrior traits to make burst skill’s stronger..
They are stronger.

If a guardian traits to make meditations stronger.
They get stronger.

Same with shatter mes, fresh air burst ele’s, power necro’s..
The list goes on.

You are a mesmer. I am sorry to tell you, thieves will counter you. Wether they are in the trickery line or SA line. While on the same coin, guardians can counter thieves.

This game does have things that counter other things. Now if your intention is to make shatter mes godlike ( like they were when the might shatter was bugged) Then be my guest.
But make it clear in the original post
You want your counter to be nerfed so you don’t have to worry as much.

Bhawb.7408:

A bad idea based on false assumptions. This is going places.

I didn’t think the day would come where bhawb was a voice of reason. (j/k i don’t really know you as i am a part time forum warrior now)

When are you going to make a nerf thread for guardians?
Since you cant thing necro is OP…
Just wondering

jihm.2315:

are you schizophrenic?
i did not call mesmer op is said moa bird is an i win button.
give my guardian a skill that turn mesmer weapon into a flamethrower that he cannot use properly and has 60% chance to burn him self and when u die i call you noob.

are you schizophrenic?
i did not call mesmer op is said moa bird is an i win button.
give my guardian

give my guardian

..You have a Guardian and a thief and you cant beat mesmer’s?

Really?!

Artaz.3819:

PU Mesmer, stealth (pick an option), Moa, apply conditions for 10s without fear of conditions falling off, win. If PU Mesmer can apply an immobilize (Sword 3) or cripple (like from the new Sigil of Incapacitation)… lol.

Cheese + cheese = iWin

The only real problem with Moa Morph is it should have a single stun breaker/condition cleanse as an ability (that’s what makes it powerful). Hopefully you don’t have a stack of Confusion when applied …

PU mesmer using moa?

HAHAHAHAH

that is a bad PU mesmer.

Liewec.2896:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

LuXx.9354:

Next week, we will talking about Killshot on warrior.

God I hope you take some English lessons in the meantime…

i cant stand comments like this, how bigoted can you be to assume that English is everyone’s first language, he could be from somalia, and i guarantee he types English better than you type somali.

There are different forums for people who are not native english speakers.

Like French, German, and Spanish.

So like yellow said.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

God I hope you take some English lessons in the meantime…

shadowpass.4236:

where did you here that from?

Dulfy write up from the Ready up today

snow.8097:

just wait for stream on balance changes, should be up in 15min

Ranger – Too many rangers using Longbow – We are adding a tell of the animation for the Point Blank skill and the projectile has a purple color to distinguish it from autoattacks.

That’s what was needed.

now the class will be too hard for the bandwagon noobs

mango.9267:

Solori.6025:

Dragon rank really means nothing now.

What makes this sad is that people lost to a thief with no weapons…
especially that necro that stood in all of your traps and AoE’s…

I honestly feel like a pro watching these people play.

Well, yeah, high PvP rank doesn’t really mean you’re good at roaming or dueling, since PvP is about rotating quickly, having good map awareness, and holding points. However, having a high PvP rank does show that you’re at least somewhat competent at fighting other people.

That said, I feared the necro into the caltrops, and then scorpion wired him into the needle trap, making it easy for me to dodge on top of him. It wasn’t actually his stupidity that killed him there.

Well yes and no.

The CC combo was brilliant.
But the necro
Threw marks in random places.
Didn’t switch weapons
Didn’t evade

and one of my unforgivable pvp sins.
backpedal

I just see many opportunities where the necro could have turned this fight around, with either a good placed mark, evade, or fear.

Maybe that’s just me overestimating the situation?

Edit:
Nevermind..
That necro was using the signet heal.
GG

mango.9267:

fumcheg.1936:

well of course your enemies are really bad, but nice video anyway.

Actually that’s not quite true. Some of them are phoenix/dragon ranks, and almost all of them are in established WvW guilds. They’re not the best players in the game, but none of them are new to PvP.

Condi teef is at a state where if you play well, and your opponent gets a little bit sloppy, you can almost always ensure a win in a 1v1.

Dragon rank really means nothing now.

What makes this sad is that people lost to a thief with no weapons…
especially that necro that stood in all of your traps and AoE’s…

I honestly feel like a pro watching these people play.

Zero Day.2594:

Overpowered:
A mechanic, skill, trait, character, build, or profession that was able to beat me in combat because it gave an largely unbalanced advantage to my opponent. It is clearly not due to the skill difference between my opponent or me or the whole situation, instead it’s clearly a balance issue where the thing that the opponent was using is overpowered.

^Definition for most QQ threads.

This basically.

This is a great guide…
and from now on when I see a QQ thread I will just reply with link.

Cheers

Duke Nukem.6783:

ele has been op i find them uncounterable

And you just made a thread saying thieves are OP..

Is the skill floor for the forums that freaking low?!

Valentin.2073:

pvp is a joke. you cant let a class rule the meta for a long time or else people would get bored and leave. Ele has already had enough of that spotlight, it’s time for that class to take a vacation AGAIN.

….

The ranger wants its counter to be nerfed..

Seems legit.

Remember when people used to complain about stability stomping being broken,

BurrTheKing.8571:

This thread adds more credibility to those that said (myself included) that some won’t be satisfied until Warrior is a free kill like pre-buff Rangers.

No one will be happy until the class they play is all powerful.

And the sad thing is.

Anet listen’s to QQ a lot more lately

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Its basically worse than a ranger pew pewing you from 1500.

luck dodge, hope for the best.

end the fight before cooldowns are up.

Atherakhia.4086:

Solori.6025:

Ithilwen.1529:

Ranger pets are once again seeing right through illusions. The Hambow got nerfed and was apparently replaced by ranger longbow.. It’s back to choosing wether to be killed by the bow or the pet. The longbow is too strong and too fast and needs to be dialed way back. The pets need to be fooled by illusions or I have no effective defense at all.

This has been the case for close to 8 or so months.

You need to get better.

Dealing with the ranger and pet is pretty much the same as it has been.
Only now you need to dodge rapid fire.

Only 8 months? I’m pretty sure it has been this way since launch. It’s also likely something they can’t fix as it’s tied to their AI and all minions (including the mesmers which is ironic given this thread) follow it.

It hasn’t been that way since launch.
I remember ranger pets used to do nothing when a target stealthed and you had to actively retarget the mesmer and command them to attack that one before it stealthed again.

The AI back in launch was dumb.

You are right though it has been longer than 8months.
I think it was with the major pet AI pass..
maybe a year and a couple?

Cynz.9437:

Anubis.7058:

Hp doesnt mean jack kitten if you can just never get hit or reset on demand (which is allowed by mobility or stealth thus every other profession has options for it).

Every profession has heals.

No, they would actually still need to get buffed even if they got evade moves, thief has stealth, immunity to chill and cripple and a average 3 combat ports/ blinks pre 10 seconds. Not that im suggesting it since it would go against the initial and sale based promotion of necromancers as the “facetank and steal back the hp” class.

Warriors – block, mobility, vigor, evade moves (your argument is invalid in terms of stats).

Condis get cleansed, hard cc can only be stun broken or stability stopped, not a argument. But it does bring up lacking stability for a non evasion profession (in contrast to mesmers or thieves which have more than enough evades and blocks on under 10s cooldowns to be functionally only skill capped in terms of cc mitigation.

Elites were never mentioned in the post, they are above average (not best, but no bad one except for some bugs, but stuff like plague bugging and not applying its type if stripped and then launched till you get hit again or lich auto attack not being remembered are as said bugs and minor). Tho in all fairness, new guard tomes, all engie elites and all mesmer elites are far stronger on average use (compare/contrast, being immune to 5 people too stupid to get out of 600 range and plain chopping off 80% HP from 5 people on 1400 range while ccing them with mortar, which is by far the weakest engie elite).

P.S. Its not skill which is keeping you alive in WvWvW, its the GWE part of GWEN.

- stealth doesn’t make you invincible, evades usually come at relative high costs and given to classes that otherwise would die in 1-2 hits (necro isn#t one of them)
- HP actually does mean something, it affects amount of healing you get and how many hits you can take… 1 good backstab with fire/air procs would instagib a thief or ele, but would bring necro to 50-30% HP
- necro has life steal, not every profession has it to that extend
- thieves don’t have immunity to chills and cripple, that is plain lie and disinformation… cripple and chills actually screw thieves by a lot starting with crippled gap closers and inablity to get out of aoe
- why would necros get buffed? thief that is buildt around evades doesn’t really have much acess to stealth besides refuge and maybe cnd which they almost never use due to initiative consumtion
- 3 combat ports and blinks pre 10 sec? what build are we talking about here
- warriors have evades? that’s new…. if you mean endure pain, that doesn’t actually stop dmg, at least not condi… also warrior built for moblity has little survival actually or does 0 dmg
- condis also get applied more frequently and at much cheaper costs than condi cleanses… not sure what you are trying to say about CC…

lorndarken.3702:

play a necromancer , and when you do , go to pvp and compete in servers that are 1 vs 1 , enjoy lol

classes are not balanced around 1v1…

Man….
How long have you been playing..
Some of this stuff points to not long at all..

-Evades actually dont come at a high cost. Weapons for both ranger and thief have plenty of evades and you can spec into either a condition build or for thieves a really annoying but fairly dangerous ( great sustain with fire and air sigils) spec that gives you enough vitality to basically shrug of hits.

-HAHAHAHAHAH life steal huh.
Please tell me how great that 100hp healing is. May as well say regen is comparable to healing signet. LOL

-Thieves actually have plenty of ways to get ride of cripple and chill..
Sometimes its as easy as going into stealth.
OR shadow stepping.
Or using sword mainhand.
or healing
or just evading the application ( which they can do fairly easily)

-Do you even play a thief?
What thief wont use CnD?
Do you know how valuable a daze every 3 seconds is?’

-You apparently have never touched a warrior. Warrior can be one of the most mobile classes and still have plenty of damage in WvW. No survivability?
That was the funniest thing i have ever seen on the forums ( it isn’t but I said it for dramatic effect).

- yes………..unless your a thief.
Stealth applications happen much more frequently than condi applications.

Ithilwen.1529:

Ranger pets are once again seeing right through illusions. The Hambow got nerfed and was apparently replaced by ranger longbow.. It’s back to choosing wether to be killed by the bow or the pet. The longbow is too strong and too fast and needs to be dialed way back. The pets need to be fooled by illusions or I have no effective defense at all.

This has been the case for close to 8 or so months.

You need to get better.

Dealing with the ranger and pet is pretty much the same as it has been.
Only now you need to dodge rapid fire.

kyubi.3620:

Carighan.6758:

kyubi.3620:

Regardless someone said its impossible for a mes to stun for more then 2 second but i beg to differ.

Mantra 1 second
Chaos storm 1 second and may stun multiple time
Shatter about 1 to 2 second depending on interval between the illusion shatter
Finish the job with the GS push and in theory you got your fifth second and all this time youve prety much been unable to heal

Hrm.
How do I say this?

Maybe the slightly passive aggressive way!
Let’s go back to the very basics. Stun is an effect which completely halts the target. No movement is allowed and only stunbreaking skills can be used. Daze is similar but careful, there’s an important difference up ahead. Dazes only prevent skill usage, and only character-based skills. Again, stunbreakers can be utilized ofc. Lastly, Knockback is something else entirely, and physically moves the target. Yes, you can stunbreaker out of it but it looks and functions quite different.

Up until the GS I was with you, assuming someone has CS traited. But then that’s already a bit patchy since your original complaint assumed a PU-wielding zerkery shatter spec (which doesn’t really exist, courtesy of lacking DE).
But… yeah well. No.

Sorry. Try harder next time.

(edit)
Added handy links to the wiki for newcomers. They explain the effects in detail there. Note that you can from there head over to the skills section and compare which classes and which weapons can field which effects.

And what if a guy actualy invented a shatter spec wich actualy do can run DE? the original shatter may not but as far as i recall running 6 0 0 0 0 6 is actualy possible as there is 13 trait point and you dont actualy need to have the clone on evade to do a kill within 3 to 4 second all you need is a about 6 clone or phantasm and you can have that by using 2 skill 1 utility then switching weapon and using 2 skill 1 utility again. Im not sure the guy did have the clone on dodge trait.

I would have to see this spec.
Because it sounds like a whole bunch of
“what if”

instead of showing a spec that works.

bobomb.5209:

@ Solori

Well for starters your question is a bit silly. If there was no way to get up to the Region where it is possible to shoot from 1500, that person wouldn’t be able to get up there anyways. Regardless I will attempt to address your points. Battle of Kyhlo, Forest of Niflhel, and Legacy of FoeFire all have regions where it would be nearly impossible to fight a well placed ranged character. But that’s exactly the problem with Conquest modes when it comes to this strategy. In this situation a person can sit up and take someone down before they have a chance to reach them. It doesn’t matter that they aren’t unreachable. But that they can kill someone before that person can even move towards the threat.

However, and I assume you forgot to read this part, I specifically stated that this kind of intelligent thinking about placement is not to be discouraged. It is simply too effective though, as there are not many counters to someone picking off individuals from a distance. If this was war, I would say get over it. But this is a video game, and everyone’s enjoyment is increased (and hence profits also increase) if the game is fairly balanced. Should the team that puts it’s teams placement into consideration get an advantage over a disorganized team? Absolutely, but not so strong of an advantage as some teams are getting just because they have one person able to attack from such a safe distance.

That was not only vague.
It didn’t answer my question.
Maybe i need to revise it?

Where are these placement’s that give you a 1500 range advantage,that has no counters? No way to reliably use terrain or close the distance.

Lets give a scenerio maybe this will help.

The ranger has a capture point.
You see the ranger is now sitting on this point.
What map is there where you cant get to this capture point?

Scenerio two-

You are capturing a capture point.
You see the ranger is coming towards you.

What map is there where you can not LoS or close the distance, before losing this capture point?

This is basically what I am asking

because I haven’t seen a map where anyone can sit 1500 units and keep a point contested.

jihm.2315:

Carighan.6758:

We have… insane utility? I’m doing something wrong.

constantly vanishing swapping potions with clones and almost kill someone in just a stun lock is not enough?

what are you playing?

No not what class..

what game are you playing.

Cause mesmer’s dont have 100 trait points in this game,

bobomb.5209:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

bobomb.5209:

Necrotize.2974:

bobomb.5209:

But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.

Maybe they’d just cancel out?

No they don’t cancel out, a larger chasm of unbalance is created. I apologize but my question was rhetorical, I assumed the fact that doing so would be absurd would be apparent.

i’ll tell you two things before patch.
this is to not Include full zerker buffs.
LB didn’t need blocking , didn’t need dodging, didn’t need Reflecting.
it was a simple gap close and kill , then with the Really weak short range of Long shot (they had no chance to swap weapons because of a cooldown)
so in the end as soon as a ranger swapped to a LB , it was Charge it and kill (he might get lucky and survive a few more secs with PBS/Hunters shot.

in the end the damage in this Situaton wasn’t enough to get other classes to even consider any Defence praticly none apart from stealth can be ignored since that is mainly a Difent trait of a build or a very short term trick to get a target to loose focus.

if people think that the above was balanced, i realy think some people should think a lot more Deeply, these changes where a Lot more than just a Skill Balance its changed the way we Fight , we Think about combat and even more importantly its but some life back into the combat of the game.

I’m not quite sure if you agree with me or not so I’ll just explain myself a bit more. I have no problems with the current changes to the Ranger class. The only problems I have with Rangers is that currently there are not many counter to a full zerk Ranger traited with Eagle Eye standing on a ledge. However, I would say that this was smart placement on the rangers part, and considering the Ranger is single target DPS it’s not THAT bad. It is still a flaw that a Ranger can remain at such a long distance and do significant damage while not being able to be attacked.

Also I do know how Ranger was pre-patch, and their weakness is still gap closing. But as I’ve seen in multiple threads you cannot really gap close a distance of 1500. I think you are being a little melodramatic with your closing sentence, but whatever suits your tastes I suppose. A grenade Engineer was doing what Rangers are now doing since months ago. The only different is that Rangers are doing it better (which is too be expected) but possibly TOO effectively.

Note: No offence, and English may not be your first language, but you should possibly look into some sort of spell check because your text gets a little indecipherable sometimes.

Can you name a pvp map where you are out in the open at 1500 range with no alternative way to get within 1200-900 units on points ( because this game is about point and that has been the issue with a lot of arguements).
And a map where terrain is nonexistent for you to use to get within this distance?

lorndarken.3702:

Sagat.3285:

dancingmonkey.4902:

lorndarken.3702:

allow mesmers , thieves to stay in it for as long as they want to . the moment they are attacked or attack they can not re enter stealth for 5 mins . so no in combat stealth ,

Where is the rest of your post?

What are you going to add to every skill a thief has to compensate for completely removing the one aspect it is balanced around?

^Waiting as well….

it’s at the top or did you not read ?

i think everyone did..so let me elaborate for them,

YOU need to go through every thief trait, utility, and weapon.

And compensate for the change that you want.

No not " lets just add more damage and defense".

You need to actively give the entire thief community and Anet since they would have to RECODE everything for an entire class a reason to even take this seriously. So far this has been a joke of a thread with half shot idea’s and heresay.

Then you need to go through the same thing with mesmer.
Every trait, utility, and weapon.

and you need to compensate the classes for an entire overhaul to the system.

Good luck.

Holl.3109:

HAHAHA…………. no

^

Kypriathe.4183:

I havn’t been playing much since school started recently so I havn’t gotten around to playing with the new changes much. Warriors used to be gods at just about everything while guardian was able to fill niche roles. Has this changed? How have their viabilities been affected in wvw, pvp and pve?

A quick look at the update notes have given me the impression that warriors have been nerfed all around while guardians remain pretty much the same with small boosts here and there.

I just want to hear some of your opinions on each class’s viability now that the patch has been out for a few weeks. Thanks!

It’s the same as it was.

People who actually learned how to play the warrior and guardian are still playing.
Still wrecking.

Warriors and Guardians are still top tier meta.
Still wanted in dungeon groups
Still frontliner’s in WvW

Guardians are still burst monsters
Warriors are still newb stompers.

oxtred.7658:

Yeah, and melee is arguably more exciting to watch than ranged skirmish about who is the best LoSer. Eles will just run focus and rangers won’t exist in high level ( at least not sniperqq longbow), but in average/low level pvp it’s a problem. Anyway i’m not here to argue if rangers are op or not, this has been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere.

oH.. I almost forgot the intent on this thread and why,

Post a build which works for you in the new ranged meta.

I’ll post one for mesmer too.

P.S. but it has to follow with the tag its op :P

oxtred.7658:

Don’t wanna sound rude but most rangers can’t dodge already.
Solori, this game isn’t about off point 1v1. A ranger can melt people at range without fearing retaliation ( not the actual boon, huh). The buff to rf is fine as far as balance goes, but it breaks anet’s rule of melee> ranged and high risk high reward. All ranged weapons should be kiting weapons with moderate damage to apply pressure, not l33t360noscopetoplel machines.

Not rude at all..but your arguement doesnt make sense.

There aren’t many maps in Spvp where a ranger can utilise its 1500 range and be a complete threat and not worry about terrain or you getting in range.

IF a ranger has a point. great..you close the distance..and get on point..so far..traiting my warrior with projectile reflect. I have a reflect every 10 seconds.

People need to adjust.
This was a melee meta where people didn’t have to worry about any type of ranged pressure.
Sadly,…knowing this comunity…
It wont happen.

oxtred.7658:

It’s not about the counter available, it’s about the low risk for such a high reward. Eles have easy access to reflects and proj absorb, but it’s not the case for everyone.

So i need to do this with a cele axe warrior..got it..let me go make that build and fight some..

Oh..if you have a ranger we could duel..
I’m in the goonies 1 v 1 arena

You can show me how bad warriors have it against the glassbow ranger.

oxtred.7658:

4 points only for a minor boost especially considering you don’t bring that 10% modifier anyway isn’t that great. No evasive arcana/ any points in water from a pvp standpoint is pretty dangerous as well. I’d move those to arcana and water. Anything with focus offhand has an advantage against rangers and nades engi.

Nope rangers have no counter’s…if you beat one you are OP….
dont you read the forums.

Jim Hunter.6821:

I melted a ranger with my necro while roaming in WvW

Necro is now OP.

He gets the point.

oxtred.7658:

Those points in fire magic would be better elsewhere imo. Anyway, it’s really glassy, celestial will still win.

I did it for the power boost.. but I agree..The points in fire could be used somewhere else.
and yes.
Celestial is still king

But the point of my experiment was to test a pure glass vs a pure glass..

My ele won 80% of the time when I was fighting the standard 6/6/x ranger
condi’s killed me.
and focus fire killed me

I blew up a ranger in pvp with my ele.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJArdhcM6Z2ywkBd0ACAWwAQFQcK4CUDL+FeDA-TJBFwACeAAl2foaZAAnAAA

Ele is now OP.

Discuss.

Tissitra.4153:

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is.

Those arent core mechanics either..

Do you know what core mechanics are?

There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

Correct.
Those classes counter ranger in there own way.
Thieves burst the burst build, guardians bunker and burst.
Necro is really the only class that I have had problems with ranger on.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

They will balance based on Tpvp.

If it is over represented and OP in Tpvp, it will be nerfed much sooner than 6 months
(spirit ranger anyone?)

Secondly,
If you dont want to change your build to counter ranger’s..fine.
But you lose the right to complain.
You have the tools to render there range useless, but you dont want to take the tools because you don’t think you should have to?

That’s like saying " O look, I have a hammer. Guess I’ll use my teeth to put this table together "

Solandri.9640:

PhantomClutch.7825:

Just so I understand.

Everyone defending agrees its ok to do 20k+ damage

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

An exotic longbow has 1000 average base damage.
Rapid Fire’s cumulative skill coefficient is 3.75.
Assume the target’s armor is 1800.
Assume Steady Focus (10% extra damage when endurance full).
Assume Eagle Eye (5% extra damage for longbow). Means no Spotter.
Assume Hunter’s tactics (10% extra damage when flanking).
Assume Peak Strength (10% extra damage when hp over 90%).
Assume Scholar runes (10% extra damage when hp over 90%).
Assume Sigil of Force (5% extra damage).
Assume Sigil of Bloodlust (250 extra power).
Assume 10% vulnerability from Opening Strike (5% + avg 5% from RF)

All those assumptions mandate a 45500 build. Outfitting it with exotic berserker’s armor and ascended berserker’s trinkets yields:
2355 power
51% crit chance
222% crit damage

1000 (2355+250) *3.75 *(1+0.51(2.22-1)) *(1+.1+.1+.1+.05+.05) *1.1 / 1800 = 13,558 damage

Methinks 20k damage from RF is a teensy bit of an exaggeration. I left out food and sharpening stone, but I think it’s pretty clear damage is nowhere near 20k. Maybe if someone else were giving you 25 stacks of might, fury, warrior banners, you might be able to hit 20k. But then you’re not facing a solo ranger, you’re facing a team who is working together to gank you.

to someone in 1.25s (if haste works how I believe it does) just because someone didn’t evade?

No, quickness does not work like that. It used to speed up attacks 100% (halved their time). But that got nerfed down to 50% last year (ranger DPS was hardest hit by that nerf, and they got the least compensation because some of their quickness didn’t get duration extensions).

2.5s becomes 2.5/1.5 = 1.67 sec.

People posting must be bad, it’s rangers did not get a 10% dps buff, they got alot more than 10%. Shortening LB2 by 50% means a straight up 50% dps increase, because you take less time to go through it.

RF wasn’t shorted by 50%. It went from 4 and a half to 2.5s. It was shortened by 44%.

And bear in mind that prior to this change, RF used to do just 93% the DPS of longbow’s autoattack.

Ranger longbow autoattack @ max range is .9/1 = 0.9 coeff/sec
Rapid Fire is 3.75/2.5 = 1.5 coeff/sec
Ratio = 1.67

Warrior GS autoattack is (.77+.7+.9)/2.5 = 0.948 coeff/sec
100 blades is 5.5/3.5 = 1.57 coeff/sec
Ratio = 1.66

Warrior rifle autoattack is .4/.96 = .417 coeff/sec
Volley is 3.0/2.5 = 1.2 coeff/sec
Ratio = 2.88

You really think RF’s extra DPS is out of line for a burst skill?

Also you’re forgetting the free grandmaster trait given to every range using signets, you don’t even need to trait for it, all signets now affect you too.

You mean the change that made signets work for rangers exactly like they’ve always worked for every profession except ranger? You’re trying to say that rangers deserved to have inferior signets compared to every other profession, and so bringing them up to par to everyone else is somehow doing rangers a favor?

Forestgreen.7981:

Also I said 50% damage increase on LB 2 skill specifically, not for the long bow in general. Note rangers got a straight up BUFF, and from what I saw no nerfs on a kitten thing to level the playing field.

RF does exactly the same damage as it did before. It’s just been compressed from 4.5 sec to 2.5 sec. That is, it’s DPS was increased 44%. It’s damage is the same as before.

As a weapon, if you assume longbow autoattack fills in the gaps between RF and Barrage whenever their cooldowns are up, then:

Before:
4.8 coeff / 2.75 sec every 30 sec (Barrage)
3.75 coeff / 4.5 sec every 10 sec (Rapid Fire)
0.9 coeff / 1 sec (autoattack)
= (4.8 + 3.75*3 + .9*13.75) = 28.425 coeff / 30 sec

After:
4.8 coeff / 2.25 sec every 30 sec
3.75 coeff / 2.5 sec every 10 sec
0.9 coeff / 1 sec
= (4.8 + 3.75*3 +.9*19.75) = 33.825 coeff/30 sec

33.825 / 28.425 = 1.19 = 19% damage buff for longbow

So basically, to even get 13-15k burst a ranger has to dedicate his entire build and utilities to one burst every 48 seconds.
AND
Hope that who ever this is happening to is complete trash.

I guess people want there free kills back?

Need a vid ? There is one of a person playing a mesmer explaining how to fight a RF too.
Because apparently learning how to play effectively is too hard for people

MightyMicah.7451:

What are you talking about? I was talking about the balance of a ranger’s power build particularly as it relates to the changes to RF. Not about usefulness in a Zerg. A Mesmer could be totally underpowered and suck in any kind of pvp or 1v1 setting, but it’s extremely useful to a Zerg due to poraling and stealthing. I have seen a massive influx of rangers roaming and in Tpvp. I cannot speak for zerging, but that’s a completely separate issue.

I haven’t seen a successful roaming ranger since the patch. Because being on a thief,engie, or mesmer is still better.
But
lets still keep pretending that mesmer is bad 1 v 1.

Yea…..
What game are you playing again?

As far as comparing RF to volley, that is not a valid comparison. We are talking about an entirely different weapon with different skills and, oh by the way, 900 range. People aren’t upset because of the damage they are recieving. When I get bursted by a fresh air Ele, I don’t mind. Why? Because I know that the enemy knew exactly what they were doing and that I got outplayed. Being bursted from stealth at 1500 range is not being outplayed. Sure, I can dodge but that is not counterplay. I could dodge a pve boss who one shots me, but that doesn’t mean that I have any kind of valid counter play. If it did we might as well just give everyone a button that one shots because hey, dodging is counter play right? Obviously this is ridiculous.

What do you mean you have no counterplay?

So you dodged a burst. and you stand there?

You dont know how to get into melee range of the ranger?
Are you playing that new class with no gap closers?
Are you playing the new class with no type of reflect skill?
Are you playing that new condition class with no conditions?

What are you playing where you have no type of counter to a power ranger?

What I’m saying is that we need some way to fight this, or it needs to be toned down. Reflects are great, but when the ranger can keep firing an 8k burst every 10 seconds, your reflects run out fast. Instead of adding some new boon or condition, let’s just tone the ranger down a bit. I’m not suggesting any insane nerf, just give them a higher cool down and a tell. That’s what every other class has. I don’t see why ranger should be any different. Especially when they accomplish their burst from 1500 range…

In a fight with a ranger. The only way you are going to get pew pewd down is if you allow them to kill you from range and you do nothing.

This is why people have been screaming L2P.

Necrotize.2974:

Just calling it as I see it and not inputting my own opinion about RF. This is all just generalized and can pretty much be applied to every class that got called OP( that’s not to say some things really weren’t OP or that things that were called OP really weren’t).

When class A is considered OP by almost everyone, players of Class A defend it and say l2p, then provide flimsy counters that work in an ideal situation.

Then, in the long term, When Class A gets nerfed, players of Class A that defended it either ditch the class completely or complain that it is now unplayable, and start calling classes B-H OP instead, and so the cycle continues.

Also, just a point I’d like to make with regards to all the flimsy counters to RF. Stealth does not counter RF, channeled skills do not lose their target when it enters stealth. At best, it just makes them wait until your stealth fades to cast RF.

But you know, when all else fails and logic is against whatever class you happen to be defending, L2P and L2Dodge are always valid arguments.

So..

Not only is there video evidence as to how you can beat a RF damage spec.
There is math on these forums that shows how and why its easier to both dodge and deal with.
There is evidence that shows other classes do the same damage or more up close ( but people are fine with being one shot in melee range?!)

There is also a list of counters to RF builds for almost every class.

If this was OP
ToL would have an over representation of them like they did when spirit rangers were Stupidly OP.

But guess what class was still underrepresented?

Guyver.1426:

IchigoHatake.5098:

NOOOOOOOOOO, do you even realize how this will ruin the game even more? Let me explain, if I’m using a condi build, I tend to have lots of toughness with stats like dire, celestial, rabid etc. If it reduces condi dmg, then everyone would just build condi because you can tank everything and do dmg. Games would be boring as kitten cause no one ever dies. Right now celestial users (meta) already take forever to kill, no more buffs pls.

As the stat of toughness have to redo, the stat of gears have to change too. All gears should be high damage but low toughness and vice versa.

Now, the whole forum is crying every class is OP because different kind of damages are too over. It can be solved by skill balance without end. Only introducing new toughness stat can solve the problem.

No…
You then have a game where everyone is basically a tank. If you have problems with conditions. bring removal…

MarauderShields.6830:

Zardul.3952:

to all those people moaning about rangers and Rapid fire.

its called KARMA !

weve been unpowered for 2 years. and now we beat you… you all CRY

i love it when you cry.

please cry more

The players that wiped the floor with you for 2 years now will not stay on their underpowered classes. I for one shelved my thief and switched to ranger, and I keep wrecking the same terribad ranger players as before. Nothing will change, you will just be beaten by your own class.

Where you one of the S/D thieves that stopped playing?

RyuDragnier.9476:

T raw.4658:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Rym.1469:

Being really good with Longbow and kiting your opponents takes more skill than many other builds, trust me.

It’s very easy to see the difference between bad and excellent Ranger.

Bad Ranger will get slaughtered when forced to melee.
Excellent Ranger just waits for it.

Oh ain’t this the truth. Had a fight yesterday in WvW with me on my Apothecary thief versus a good Ranger. She threw out a RF, I used LoS to dodge it before I closed the distance with steal just for her to pull out S/D and proceed to start melee combat. We fought for 5 minutes (her dancing between S/D and LB skillfully) before I finally got taken out by her due to a fatal mistake on my part (I dodged too early). Sent her a PM thanking her for the good fight. I still salute that Mag Ranger, I rarely get fights like that in WvW versus Rangers.

So you lost to a power ranger on a condi thief…..

Every post you make just sheds more light on why you post the way you do

Healing thief sir, healing thief. I run with D/D and P/P (both help with the healing procs on Signet of Malice and provide good damage), building for survival when it comes to WvW (a foreign concept for most thieves). I go venom share usually for dungeons, and zerker for those rare occasions that I need to burn something down fast.

So let me get this straight,

Healing bunker THIEF

lost to a power ranger who can shoot bunkers from range.

THIEF.
who is a healing power thief with apothocary gear ( instead of nomads?! also why even use apothocary if you are trying to be survivable? You may as well use clerics and be just as useless)

Complains about not being able to do anything to a ranger.

While real thieves—-the ones that actually build for condition damage and still survive just fine.
Are loading that same ranger up with conditions and killing it.

…
That sums this up no?

Galandil.9641:

Aomine.5012:

I checked you on both EU/NA TPVP/SPVP leaderboard and you’re not even on it.
Hot join Heroes tend to complain this one trick pony rapid fire build more than anyone else, but don’t know that build is just borderline viable in rank battle. (So many, SOOOOO MANY counter to that power ranger in TPVP/SPVP)
Mesmer dish out similar damage with way more utilities to help the team. (And their attacks way harder to mitigate)

Don’t get me wrong or accusing me of saying leader-board is an accurate measure of skill, but if you’re not even on that 1000 (which is SOOO EASY to get in if you at least play some ranked battle, just a little), it shows that you almost never play competitively . Yet you want us to listen to your QQ about the balance issue that Anet continues to fail huh?

It’s like saying that any game developer staff should have a team that is “top” in its own game.

Like in GW1 GvG, during the old good times, Anet should have had their own team constantly in the top 100 positions in the ladder.

The sheer stupidity of these posts of yours is appalling.

There, I’ll write it in a simpler way so you can understand it:

Skill in developing/balancing != Skill at playing the game

I didn’t take that from that post at all.

He was calling out someone who is complaining about a one trick pony that has a minor impact in the actual competitive aspect of this game that it is almost negligible
Because it can be countered really really easy.

People would rather complain about everything than take 10minutes to figure out what it’s doing
why it’s doing it
and how you can counter it effectively.

Anchoku.8142:

IMO, long bow damage and hard CC is too much for its range when compared to other ranged weapons in other professions. It is too much cheese.

Ranger should make use of long bow to do damage at 1200+ but it is too easy to just run it all the time while avoiding damage and CC from short range weapons: too little risk and too much reward. I would rather see ranger strengthened for short range usefulness than add more cheese.

It’s really easy to pull of vs noobs.
Really hard to pull off vs people that know what to do.

I have fought a mesmer,ele,warrior, and guardian that pretty much kept me mid -melee range.
and I have played my mesmer and done the same thing to rangers that pew pew and think no one has a reflect.

This build will make it as a hotjoin hero build.
Time will tell if we actually see a good team oriented ranged build

Warrior is OP

I was just dueling one on my ranger and he reflected pretty much all of my projectile burst and loaded me with conditions.
Every time I got distance on him he would leap stun and load me up with bleeds or block and run to me then eviscerate when i used my dodges.

Totally nothing I could do.
Nerf celestial warrs plox

Anchoku.8142:

Ele’s ice bow is strong but it is temporary and goes on cool down. Staff is generally weak and more of a multi-purpose utility weapon.
.

What game are you playing where staff ele is weak.

Please share

Atherakhia.4086:

What kind of changes are you guys honestly expecting?

At most, RF will see a 10% damage nerf to bring it down to what volley is capable of. All skills should stop at their max range, so if ANet wants to fix staff, scepter, and bows for everyone, I’m fine with it affecting Ranger.

Beyond that what’s left to complain about? Despite the changes, the class is still horribly weak and in need of improvements elsewhere. Will dropping damage by 10% and adjusting max range to be really 1500 allow us to discuss the issues still plaguing the class? Or are people under the impression that all the class needed was a burst skill to make it complete?

Volley..hits for about the same..(300 less when nothing is on both the ranger and war)

Secondly
Why does RF need to be nerfed to volley’s power?
Then what would be the point of having a ranger, when you can just go warrior( which is what the meta has been for how many months now?), and have better damage because of the burst skill.

(Cause lets be honest.
People complain about RF from range. Because it’s ranged damage.)

Why don’t they complain about warrior, because it’s also high damage from range.

Changes I could agree on-

PBS needs an animation that isn’t another arrow like the auto attack.
and it needs a windup.

Signet of the Wild- No other signet gives a player an extra 25% damage boost. for 8 seconds.
I would say 10% for the ranger- 25% for the pet