Guild Wars 2

For ‘tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petar’

(sic)

moving on..

Great post Gehenna. From the Manifesto to launch, enough information leaked to kill the notion that GW2 was going to be “everything” loved about GW1. Anyone that expected that just wasn’t keeping up.

Still, knowing that, the magnitude of what did not make it from GW1 to GW2 was a bit staggering at beta and launch. Because of that, I didn’t buy the game and didn’t plan to, but my son decided to gift it to me as an early Christmas in November. I do post far too many “but but but GW1!” threads, but honestly, my time in EQ2 showed me that Developers do read those and sometimes.. things happen.

At one time, Beastlord was a filtered word on the EQ2 forums. It was a popular class in EQ, Sony got sick of people asking for it in EQ2 to the point of filtering the very word, and yet, Lo and behold, Beastlord is now an EQ2 class. You never know.

In the years I have spent gaming I’ve seen “never” become “perhaps” and then “upcoming feature” more than a few times.

Dra Keln.2015:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_movement_of_the_world

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ecology_of_the_Charr

Those two should help @Teofa, but essentially, when they overthrew the flame legion the charr went through a period where they rejected magic completely, and this brought on a full scale industrial revolution building weapons of war in order to just keep up with magic users. Imagine this as a world where instead of ignoring DaVinci’s helicopter design, it was embraced on and tested until it succeeded because that was the key to staying alive

I have read those, of course. Many times. Where is this industrial Revolution mentioned? From no firearms at all to heavier than air flight and armored vehicles in 250 years is a bit more than a revolution. I find this snippet in The Ecology of the Charr.

, “the Iron (Legion) through mechanical creations and siege towers,”

Looking up the Iron Legion does not add much more to that.

The story of the Charr DaVinci (or whatever it was) that drove this incredible racial crusade to industrial prominance needs to be written.

Vayne Quote for the day.

" The only thing really up for discussion here is the standards of school education in different countries"

Nice new tangent Vayne, if someone does not share your interpretation, they must be poorly educated.

You are so entertaining. :P

I want to read how in heck the Charr got to where they are. Norn, Humans, the Pale Tree.. I find continuity and flow from what I saw in GW1.

Charr? last I saw, they were using animals as siege engines and their heavy hitters were magic and fire users, not a shred of the tech prowess shown here.
Its like it just appeared out of the nether, and in a very short time Charr have gone from fairly primitive shamanism to the most advanced industrial society on Tyria. Helicopter?

It is just jarring and unexplainable. I want to read how.

Vayne.8563:

But trying to get random groups instead of joining a like-minded guild…that I’ll just never understand. I group for things every single day in my guild.
.

There… is.. an entire guild.. that thinks like you. That may be the most terrifying thing that I’ve read on the internet.

(tongue firmly in cheek)

Gut what we have, rewrite an actual story into whats left. I won’t go into specifics, just generalizations.

Quite simply, I would remove “personal” from the personal story, and just make it a story that my Character plays a role in, and grows over time.

GW1 did that well. They did not impose upon me a background, a “story”, surprise.. you have a Sister!! joyous reunion, sister disappears forever, etc etc as GW2 does.

I would prefer to write my own characters background, OK? The “decisions” you have us make really.. lead to nothing of consequence and contribute nothing to the bulk of the story. If it is going to be Generic, be generic from the start. Leave the trite, “I always wanted to join the circus” stuff out of it. Joining an order, working my way up, that’s fine, but make it matter beyond what armor I want to buy because ultimately, that’s all it is.

No one would be my “Race Mentor” or declare me the wonder of the shiverpeaks for swatting a level one worm. I wouldn’t need “letters” from a “pal” who can’t even recognize my character in a Living Story instance. Or end up having a “mentor” like Logan the Inept.

Dungeon story line would be separate.. as it is in the game. I wouldn’t need Eir unless I decided to actually care about Destiny’s Edge, which I doubt will ever happen. Involving Destiny’s Edge needs it’s own separate side storyline, instead of them wandering aimlessly through ours. Bringing them to the final conclusion would be a players choice instead of just “happening”

GW2 storyline just feels too trite, too contrived, and far too shallow. As annoying as he was, I felt bad when Rurik died. I haven’t any connection to any GW2 figure like that. Forgal is too fleeting, too trivial to really matter. If he had died farther in.. way farther in, I could have. Your order “mentor” should stay with you till the end, or nearly so, giving both a reason to care about your order, and your Mentor.

As in GW1, a story of an person who stumbles upon an “Adventure”, grows and gains stature and fame, and eventually plays a pivotal role in a major event.

First mission in proph, I went out, saw a big scary band of Charr, and ran like a scared little bunny back to safety to report it. Not very heroic.

First mission as a Norn, I heroically slew the mighty Worm, becoming a Legend, known far and wide throughout the lands as the SLAYER!! …….. really?

At the end of the campaigns in GW1, no matter how many NPCs were involved, no matter Kormir, or Rurik, or Togo, when the crowd cheered and knelt, the fireworks rolled, and the music swelled to the final credit, it was YOU being cheered. In spite of knowing 1000s of players had been there in that spot, it was still pretty awesome. I never tired of that, stayed in that final instance till long into the credits, and always felt a bit of joy, and a bit of sadness.. and a feeling no GW2 story has every given me.

I have played MMOs, and only MMOs for 12 years. I beat Prophecies, no shortcuts, with henchmen only, all the way. When I got to that final instance, when I had done it all, and I just stood there, listening to the music, the theme.. and actually crying.. it was a moment of magic I just had not felt in that 12 years of gaming. The other final instances were much the same..

Bring me back that magic

Anet could instance zones, they still have the code in game in some form. Parts of the Personal Story take place in them.. with an artificial boundary imposed. They don’t put you in a small instance created for the story, you get a zone map with boundaries within it, much like Norn Moot in GW1. HM could probably be done, Vanquishing could probably be done, and Vayne… before you even start… would not impact Open world players doing the normal zones.

And also Vayne, I would vehemently disagree with your casual dismissal of intanced zoning, as it allowed a flexibility, per char, that just isn’t allowed in open zones. Flexibility that allowed them to introduce storylines like WIK, WOC, etc to advanced characters, and leaving normal zones for people who needed them.

In GW1 your chars could enter a changed “world” without imposing that world on new characters or people not participating in it.

I don’t get the either/or mentality. One or the Other, and never consider elements of both, in the open world.

Not an exploit, but ANET has a long history of changing, moving, or removing easily farmed mobs that drop decently. Happened all the time in GW1

We need another level 80 zone that IS NOT Orr. I do Frostgorge, I don’t want to roam in Zombielandz. It got old months ago.

Other games considered farming an event and not finishing, or farming any mobs to the point of denying quest completion for other players as Zone Disruption, still actionable and a better description.

" Galen Grey.4709:

I disagree, what ArenaNet did was take a page out of the sandbox game manual and did what they said they’d do in the manifesto, play the way you want."

I would suggest, perhaps, you really don’t grasp the meaning of “Sandbox”. GW2 and “Sandbox game” should probably never be mentioned in the same sentence, unless you are pointing out that GW2 isn’t one.

Or, how some people can think they know so much that they can speak for the developers, and yet not be one.

see what I did there?

The annoyance cuts both ways, and both disrupt communication.

silvermember.8941:

Hey don’t get mad at me because of your dumb “IF statement” was.

I was not mad. . I often look at a players posting history. You have a penchant for labeling posters you don’t agree with with various negative labels, questioning intelligence, generally insulting. So, I don’t take an insult from you as any big deal, since you tend to do it a lot, and its nothing new or even personal.

have a nice day

marnick.4305:

You haven’t been playing GW2 much have you?

2973 hours over 8 months. 8 level 80s. You?

10475 hours in GW1 over 61 months.

I’m retired and disabled. I was disinterested in the remainder of your post, so I snipped it, Sorry

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

A persistent world doesn’t actually reset, even if events within it might cycle. The world itself is open. In other words, it persists.

Endlessly recycling events in GW2 produce the same effect as zones resetting in GW1: despite all your efforts to the contrary, nothing has really changed.

This is completely untrue. When I walk out a gate in Guild Wars 1 I know exactly where every creature will be…where they’ll spawn…where they’ll drop. The closest thing to random I can find in Guild Wars 1 is the rotating bosses in some zones, which if you’re looking to cap an elite is merely annoying.

In Guild Wars 2, I don’t always know what I’ll find when I walk out a gate. An event may spawn, it may not spawn. In fact, in Guild Wars 1, once you finish your quests, you pretty much just have mobs in zones, and maybe an occasional repeatable quest. But you don’t anything else but mobs all standing in exactly the same spot.

Cyclic events aren’t the same as static events, or even no events.

Just the fact that an event can scale up changes it dramatically. There’s no reason for events to scale in Guild Wars 2, because the game knows exactly how many people you’re taking. You can take less or more, but the event never changes.

There are times, due to spawning or even overlapping events that some interesting results have occurred. That just doesn’t happen in Guild Wars 1.

Vayne, Please… Mobs just standing in one spot? Guess you never did DOA/UW did you. Or half the game, obviously. Mobs in GW1 patrol a LOT bigger areas, Particularly in NF and EoTN. Just stop already. There is no reason to state an outright exaggeration to prove whatever point you think you are proving. It only weakens that point.

I’m a legendary Vanquisher, are you? Must have been so easy for you, knowing EXACTLY where every mob “just standing there” would be. How much GW1 did you actually play? How can you even make such claims?

And GW2? again, come on, Please.. Daily Kill variety quests I run directly to the spots I know mobs will be. Other dailies I run directly to the mobs I need, for what I need, and so does everyone else. It never varies, ever, except to wait for respawn. If anything, big patrol pattern mobs are RARER in GW2 than GW1. I know where DE mobs will spawn, how many, and what will, during the DE cycle. Every player who does Maw, Dragons, every Meta also knows what will spawn, when it will spawn, and where it will spawn. Jeez.. Random, GW2 is not, and any player who does dailies knows this.

There are enough legitimate differences, pros and cons, both sides, to debate a preference for either game. You really don’t need to manufacture a post like this.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Persistent world being? The fact that I can log out, log back in a year later and still have my char, gear, GH, questlog etc etc and a world that exists even though I have exited it? A world that retains the changes I’ve made to it on my acct through WIK, WOC, HotN, etc?

Now, define persistent world in your universe. How is it different?

Generally accepted is not a hard, inarguable definition.

It is generally accepted, here, that a chip is not a french fry, either.

I persistent world means that it persists..whether you’re there or not. When you leave a zone in Guild Wars 1 and log back into it, everything is reset…exactly what it was before you log in. It’s not persistent. It doesn’t continue. It’s an instance. The instance resets.

A persistent world doesn’t actually reset, even if events within it might cycle. The world itself is open. In other words, it persists.

Pretty straight forward I thought.

And even if persistent was the wrong word, pretty much everyone in the industry knows what we’re talking about when it’s used.

You really, really cannot compromise one inch, can you. Not one. “Pretty Much everyone in the industry”. That’s as valid as “Bob, down at the gas station”

Gee, a lot of folks in the industry agree that GW1 contains enough elements of an MMO to be called one, or not, since the “definitions” are not absolute.. save for a few who demand being the last word on every issue.

See.. again, I’m not saying YOU have to call it an MMO. You can call it a Portable Albert Wafflebender, for all I care. Please, show the same consideration to others who see enough MMO in GW1 to call it one.

@Vayne
Persistent world being? The fact that I can log out, log back in a year later and still have my char, gear, gold, bank and pack contents, GH, questlog etc etc and a world that exists even though I have exited it? A world that retains the changes I’ve made to it on my acct through WIK, WOC, HotN, etc? A world that I don’t enter through a central “lobby” but by map travel to “persistant” outposts and continents, and then enter instances that are “persistant” whether I am there or not?

You know, I can see somewhat of the Massive=Numbers in zone argument. Persistent..How is GW1 not Persistent?

Now, define persistent world in your universe. How is it different?

Generally accepted is not a hard, inarguable definition.

Commonly used is does not mean correct. At one time the word “irregardless” was commonly used.

It is generally accepted, here, that a chip is not a french fry, either. I am, however, perfectly fine with others calling a french fry a “chip”. By their parameters, it is. Not my place to flatly tell them they are wrong. I well respect anyone that chooses to call GW1 a “CoRPG” if they feel the need to, but I don’t people shouting that Im wrong to call it an MMO, as it fits the parameters of being one, by MY understanding of the term.

Grey areas are Grey.

Conversely, People have no more reason to think they know more about the term than Richard Garriot, who coined the Massively Multiplayer term to introduce the first game to allow more that a couple hundred to log in at the same time by increased support for modem connections. Simple marketing slogan, nothing more. Little to do with gameplay, lots to do with the improvements that allowed a huge leap in numbers able to log in at once.

And Anet was free to use whatever marketing label they chose to, and Im sure aiming at the Console pvp demographic inspired Co OP as a label more than any “definition” of MMO that differs according to whatever point a someone is trying to make.

Ask for solo content in a game, and the usual crowd will contend that MMO means “grouping”

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, odds are, its some sort of duck.

Common sense, people.

good humor.
Thanks

for a bit there, I thought you were serious.

Banquetto.9521:

Unleashed.6195:

Banquetto.9521:

Unleashed.6195:

In every way that’s crucially important, GW1 was an MMO.

You don’t think it’s “crucially important” that an MMO should feature Massively-Multiplayer Online gameplay?

I kinda do, personally.

What’s your favourite MMO? Counterstrike is pretty cool, isn’t it?

As fun as it is to quip with extended acronyms, maybe you can get into specifics as to what qualifies for “massive” and in what context? I mean, I somehow doubt the words multiplayer and online are what bother you, as those are pretty black and white. It is online. It is multiplayer.

So… massive? Massive where? Dungeons you have 5 people. Group events I’ve seen 50-60 show up. ZvZ in WvW I’ve seen maybe 120 or so at once. The vast majority of content however you usually are seeing < 10 people at a time in GW2, and certainly less than 50, especially with culling in mind.

Um, you said that GW 1 was an MMO in every way that’s crucially important. If that was a typo and you meant to say GW 2, then of course I agree with you.

Massively-multiplayer means arbitrary numbers of players interacting. If it’s 4 players at a time, or 8, or even say 16v16 (like World of Tanks), it’s not massively multiplayer. It’s just multiplayer.

And personally, I only count the numbers in actual gameplay. Not in lobbies. That’s why GW2 is an MMO and GW1 was not.

So, let me see if I get this right. When you are in LA, (lobby) and enter a Fractal (5man) you have effectively stopped playing an MMO? But then, if you zone to a Dragon with 40 people there, you have re-entered an MMO? Very confusing.

And, if you show up at maw, finish it with 12 people, tis not MMO, but if more show up, it is?

Honestly curious as to your definition. Massively Multiplayer was a bit of hype coined by Lord British for UO, not a strict definition. At the time, it was more of 1000s of people able to log into the same game at the same time, compared to the severely limited numbers of players able to enter a game prior to that and not a definition of raid size or “who is in this zone”. It was an amorphous definition at best then, and has hardly become more precise since.

Also curious as to what “interaction” is to you. If I am standing in a closed (100 players) district in Kamedan, as I was last night, buying, selling, people LFG, conversing.. that is not “interaction”? But.. 100 people standing in LA is? or is not?

Seriously folks, MMORPG was a marketing label to intro a different kind of game. Anet chose to invent CoRPG for GW1 as their marketing label. Arguing over the “strict” definitions of both is like arguing whether a “SUPER SIZE” softdrink is actually super, large, extra large or jumbo, and just as silly.

Games need Parity, not “balance”.

Example in WvW, pointswise, the value of a guardian in a zerg is equal to the value of a thief in denying supply to to the enemy and running havoc. Overall equality in a very large picture.

Situational imbalance will always be there and IMO is a good thing. No way can they make all classes equal at all things. But.. they can have all classes fairly equal at successfully playing the game as a whole.

sPvP, I don’t know. Arenanet split skills between pvp and pve. and perhaps more needs done here to balance that single aspect parity.

Yeah, we are in the era of players who absolutely refuse to pay 15/mo for a subscription, but will fork over 50/mo in a cash store without blinking. And every big MMO but Blizzard is cashing in on it.

John Smedley (CEO SOE) called it right.. oh.. 7 years ago I think with his White Paper on microtransactions being the future. It certainly is.

Interesting read, in light of today. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1716/soes_station_exchange__the_.php

I don’t think they have done enough research. The FnF skins offered were limited, not that great, and were probably not a good test of players willingness to buy skins direct rather than RNG.

I don’t think they know how much possible sales income is lost because of people who would buy more desired skins directly, but opt out of RNG gambling.

Also, while gold to gem conversion is attractive, I think we are seeing a problem with it. Mudflation is a fact of MMOs, the bulk of the population is at endgame and gaining gold at a rate outpacing traditional sinks. Anet has to burn that gold off to facilitate RMT gem purchases. So.. RNG leads to more gem conversions by forcing more purchasing of “cheap” items, Keys.. and depletes the gold reserves in game… but how much does it harm actual RMT Gem purchases? Big question.

I will buy items I like. That Item. I will buy stones directly, Makeovers directly, I will not buy a chest for a “chance” at them, and I certainly will not buy a chest for a remote chance of 1/10th of an item I want.

Personally, I will buy a gem card to obtain an item I want, rather than play the conversion mkt and burn through gold. In my case, the rng decision costs them. With 9 chars my ingame gold goes to purchases like Cultural armors, not gem conversions.

I will go to a store and buy a 60dollar Blouse. I would never go to a store and buy 10 dollar mystery boxes guaranteed to have a random cotton t shirt and a remote chance at that blouse.

Why people will do things with pixels they would never do IRL baffles me.

silvermember.8941:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

If I could transfer my Norn to GW1, I would NOT be here. And that is the solid truth.

That is like saying IF I could have played 10, 13, 14, 22, 52 and 11, I would have won the 600 million dollar powerball, unfortunately I did not, so it doesn’t matter.

.[/quote]

Here, let me type slower and louder for you. I’m playing GW2 at this point simply because I love my Norn characters.

So, hypothetically, if Norn were a playable race in GW1, there would be no reason for me to be here.

Conversely, if Norn had never been playable here, I would have never installed this. I bought after launch, and had real trepidation then.

It is an illustrative statement of just how thin the margin is that is keeping me here at all.

silvermember.8941:

You know that game guild wars 1 is still around, you can always go play it. With the amount of people complaining how guild wars 2 is not guild wars 1, you could form a giant guild together and enjoy the game till you grow old and die.

The fact that you are here complaining instead of playing the game you seem to be truly in love means there is something holding you back. Personally, I think the reason is that even though you are blinded by nostalgia you probably realize that deep down guild wars 1 did not age too well and your feelings for that game will not over come that. From your very specific complaints about the game, you could easily still enjoy the game but are unwilling to do so.

As a former guild wars 1 fan with gw1 being my first MMO type game (gw1 is a CoRPG), no MMORPG will ever beat the feeling of first logging into pre-searing ascalon in 2005, but that didn’t matter because I couldn’t play the game for longer than 15 minutes.

A lot of these guild war 2 is not guild wars 1 threads are simply a battle of emotions and finding bullet points to justify your emotional debate, because ultimately if you really like the game the way they claimed they would still be playing guild wars 1 and not here complaining.

If I could transfer my Norn to GW1, I would NOT be here. And that is the solid truth.

Regarding the Newbie headgears and other uniques.. I had not a clue, when I first created, that my choice would give me unique bits of armor, nor did I know that if deleted, it was not replaceable.

They could stick in a very simple quest, in the new player zone, close to start point. Call it “Crafting for the Novice and Absentminded”

Hello young Hero, or.. Old hero as it may be. In case you find yourself intrigued by the fine art of crafting, or, like many, have misplaced a certain family heirloom, I have just the solution. I have.. a few recipes that may be of service.. for a paltry bit of coin and a bit of service. I need wood, to make parchment for my recipe books. Fetch me X logs, a bit of silver, and Ill give you some one of a kind recipes.

Reward could be recipes for the starter unique armors, soul or acct bound, entry level crafting req. One time per char by profession. I dunno. Or all lights, all meds, all heavies, choose one type.

Has to be a better way to get these restored than by creating/wiping characters.

I love the slider, its the best part of the last update, and the first thing I did in game was slide it to zero.

I love music. I listen to it all the time. I don’t listen to music done on crude toys, football horns, or bells with cooldowns. Might as well be playing with a stick and an old shoe. It is not a matter of talent, but one of tools, and the tools don’t cut it. The option to mute all is the one I would take, regardless.

Now.. just give me a particle slider.. PLEASE.

And forgive me, I have to share this. In EQ2, we had an option of 2 sets of Character models, original or SOGA.. and options to hide cloaks and mounts, which did save on performance. There was a very strident group of people who insisted that other people had no right to do this, that they had to see, on their screen, what these players INTENDED for them to see. They insisted that knowing others saw their char in an alternate model or sans cloak or mount degraded their game experience. It was pretty hilarious.

Unleashed.6195:

Morrigan.2809:

I think Vayne had a very good point about people skipping dialogue.

I have lost count of how many times I have heard people complain here that they don’t like the Story- only to say in the same post that they either didn’t do it at all or skipped the actual story parts.

To be fair to them, perhaps they were looking for writing that didn’t make them want to laugh (and not in a good way). In order to enjoy the game, you have to ignore a lot of the dialogue.

Legendary hero of the Norn to you after half a dozen interactions, “You’ve taught me to be a hero again”, which btw, is right after (on the priory line) your “mentor” tells you that you’ve changed their life and taught them how to be heroic…

The writing in a game is never likely to make Cormac McCarthy brim with envy, but it shouldn’t be something Stephenie Meyer would chuckle at either.

Or disconnect totally. Oh I remember seeing my first Vigil pal, after my promotion to Warmaster, remembering us fighting the Dastardly Dredge, saving the Dorf, comrades in arms.. and I said hello.. and he said.. “you aren’t quite ready to join the vigil yet”

I like to think I have given this game a fair shake. I have 8 level 80s, one 54. I’ve done the things I would do in other games. I’ve ignored what does not interest me, and that is becoming pretty much every update. Still, I log on everyday. I have hopes that someone will realize what a huge, nice world they have, and use it more. I have hope that someone realizes the lore, the world THEY created has untold stories far more compelling than Flying Steampunk Pirates, teen fad books, or Super NES. I think the character art, the art of the world is fantastic. Weapons and Armor.. not as much. Costumes, even less, given the limitations they have. I am beyond sick of DEs I’ve done 50 times, but have fun just roaming around the prettier areas doing mayhem on the local wildlife. So far the game is worth not giving up on.

I also find myself back in GW1 for several hours a day. I have fun there, just fun. No achievements, nothing I feel is forced upon me, no constant particle spam in town or out, its just relaxing. If I want to take a “daily” I do.. and can do it a week later if I feel like it. Always something to do, cause how I build my group determines how different I can make things. Rolling with an optimal hero group is very different than picking 5 melee and a couple monks. Dumb, but fun. Here I would be “not doing it right” and since I’m forced to pug with real players, be told I’m “not doing it right”. I’m not living in the past, I am having fun, in a fun game. With the exception of April Fools Terminator sillyness, I have yet to run into content in GW1 so out of place that it causes me to wonder “what the kitten were they thinking.”

Yes, it has less features than GW2. But.. I went to GW1 from Everquest2, with mounts, housing, ingame voip, mail, player vendors, crafting, etc etc, lots more MMO bling. But GW1 gameplay was worth losing that bling, and I played it and kept going back to it.

And I guess thats my downfall here. I guess I expected GW1 on steriods, GW1 with big MMO “bling”, I expected what I loved from GW1 would be here.. on a grander scale. I expected more of the options I had in a lot older MMOs.. a lot of graphical settings, options, saved templates for those options, ingame VOIP, more freedom with my UI, particle settings, so many of the things that are commonplace in much older games. I did not expect that most of the magic of GW1 would be tossed away and not replaced by anything comparable. I did WIK 14 times, and I’ve yet to find a story in GW2 I want to suffer through more than once.

I think, had I never played GW1, I would be more ok with this game. I still would not like the one size fits all options choices, or their insistence that I see their particle lightshows at full power, and I wouldnt like minigames, pop culture instances, platforming, all things I just never expected to become the main thrust of the game at times. I am a product of my expectations, and because of them, I am not nearly as happy with this game as I am with GW1.

8 80s, 1 54. 6 Norn, 3 human. All Female.
My Norn are the biggest reason I play GW2. I loved Jora, loved the Norn Story, it is, by far, the reason I play this.

My norn remain as made at Char Creation, no tattoos, very nordic, more tanned than Jora and a bit shorter. One Fair Skinned. No Eir hair, most have the simple braids, for me, the most practical and what I did with my hair over a lifetime of outdoor activities. Im happy with them. They wear mostly Cultural Norn Armor mixed with Vigil, no bells, whistles, or shiny effects. Weaponry is the same, simple effective skins, not large, and no particle effects. Not much I want to add or change. I adore my Norn girls, more than any other chars in any games, of any race. I could not be happier.

Humans.. eh, they get the makeovers. Over and Over. I just get a bit tired of the 17 year old looks, but try as I may, I cannot get a human where I’m totally happy or comfortable with them. Two are very Elonian, just to be a ‘bit’ different than the pack.

Silvari never made it past char creation. The Pod People thing was just..too jarring for me. The glow stuff was as well. I see them from a distance and want to make one, but up close.. I can’t.

Ive made two asuran and deleted. Camera stuff mainly, not comfortable with them, and “cute” got very old very fast.

Charr were never a consideration. Ever. I remember what you did. Oh yes.

@ Galen Grey

I had wanted to, theoretically, I could have put points into all 32 professions, but would have been good at none. You have to think way out of the current MMO Box.. waaaay out. Also, some prof trees were required for others. TBH I don’t know how many professions could be done with 250 points.

A bit of ancient history http://www.swgcharacterbuilder.com/swg-cb.php?prof_id=5

My Master Carbineer/Bounty Hunter/Pistoleer was actually a Marksman/Scout/Carbineer/Bounty Hunter/Pistoleer.. Elements of 5 different professions. And another player, with elements of the same 5, could be totally different than mine depending on skill trees learned.

Galen Grey.4709:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

@Galen Grey
snip…

Part 2

“Freedom of Choice. Again, SWG pre NGE. No professions, only skills. " I dont know about this, never played SWG as I said before. But a little searching disagrees with what you’re saying. according to this:
http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Professions_
There were not only professions that had distinct skills Commando has no access to healing skill trees which medic does. But within each class there are also specializations.

You missed the very first line on that page:

“In Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided you must have a profession and you can have as many as your skill points allow you to have”

I will reply to this, basically because you totally misunderstand it. Yes, those are the list of professions. From which you could choose skill based hybrids, by using skill points. Jedi was an unlocked, separate char.

My main was a Master Carbineer/Bounty Hunter/Pistoleer with a bit of Ranger.
One character was a Master Dancer/Tailor/Creature Handler
A good friend was a Master Carbineer/Doctor/Creature Handler.
Combat “medic” was rarely a medic..they rarely took the full heal line. Poison tossers, usually with other combat professions mixed.
Doctors were.. by and large, craftsmen. Worth far more making buffs and heal packs than healing in combat. TBH most Doctors were Doctor/Rifleman to harvest their own buffpack components.
People were largely self sufficient re heals, with stimpacks and pre applied buffs.. There were no roles until CU tried to scab them in, and no “dedicated” anything.
32 professions.. and the ability to hybridize your build to be a mix of any of them, using your skill points.

If your theoretical Commando wanted heal skills, they could put points into a healing profession skill tree.

That is freedom.
But its not important. People didn’t like freedom. They didn’t like not being told where to go, what to be, what to do in combat. We won’t ever see that level of freedom in an MMO again, and that includes this game. We wont see the freedom of personal customization again either, as the game was a database monster, rarely did you find even two people with the same mix of professions, armor stats, weapons stats, and buffs, full body customization.. all being wildly variable according to each player. Perhaps, far in the future, we may, but I kind of doubt it.

I feel a bit for people who did not experience pre WoW MMOs. Wows success homogenized the entire industry, with old games scrambling to be a bit more WoW, and new games trying to out WoW Wow. For example, SWG, post WoW, became a structured 8 class game with roles, defined Quest paths, Trinity, and generally required little player thought. WoW became the success benchmark, and niche mmo gaming died, with the exception of EVE. I guess thats why I was so fond of GW1, even though technically a CORPG, it was different enough from WoW to be fresh and unique in a lot of ways.

Bottom line is, today, in this industry, if you can play WoW you can jump into any MMO offered, Save Eve, and play with little to no adjustment and that also includes GW2. The benchmark has changed, since WoW games have tried to be enough different than WoW to attract those in need of change.. and yet similar enough to WoW to attract the demographic that made WoW such a huge financial success.

For example, take 2 futuristic space games. STO and Eve. If you have only played WoW, you will jump into STO with very little shock, there isn’t much difference. Put that WoW player into EVE, and they will be gibbering, curled up in a fetal ball. EVE is very Niche, with possibly the hardest learning curve left online.

GW2 is possibly the best of the current batch.. working within those restraints. I have to say, however, I do not think it is the best the industry, or ANET, is capable of creating. Developers are not striving to be as innovative or original as they could be, faced with the possibility of financial failure.. and the 500lb gorilla of WoWs financial success looming large in the room.

Already , in this game, we see the creep. Bits of Vertical Progression. Bits of Gear gated content. (agony). We see the possibility of Raiding. Level Cap increases. Only a year, and the manifesto is crumbling, not much, but bit by bit. The demographic that expects those things is huge, and will be catered to. It is just economics.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Bye Vayne. Not talking in circles with you. I’ll just go get my geritol, plug in some Matlock reruns, redye my hair blue and listen to Cab Calloway on my Victrola. After that, Ill play some Pong or Checkers. Im too old to comment on vidya games I reckon.

I’m probably as old as you…I just didn’t get into the early MMOs because I never had time for them while I was working. I’m retired now, and I have more time to play. I know I’d have loved EQ if I’d had the time to invest into it, but I also knew it would have probably hurt other real life interests I had at the time.

It’s not that you’re too old, but if you really think UO is significant when discussing today’s MMOs, I don’t really know what to tell you. It’s an old game, that would never survive today. It was too free-form. Too niche. It didn’t lead people around by the nose enough.

And you know, I really don’t want to be led around by the nose. I find it frustrating. But I acknowledge that today’s gamers aren’t going to devote to one game and stay there. It’s not happening and I think Anet knows that.

They want to play 20 games…30 games. So they won’t stay with one game long enough to think about where to go or what to do. It’s much easier to run to Dulfy or the wiki and run through content.

It’s a different world. Trying to make an intelligent game that doesn’t lead you around by the nose today, with the budgetary requirements of today’s games, would be really really hard. The risk involved almost guarantees it would have to be an independent game.

You know, I agree with much of this, to my shock. UO is important simply because UO proved it could be done. WoW took UO and EQ and dumbed them, to the market you describe. That LCD process continues to the detriment, IMO, of all MMOs.

I think they are forgetting that the generations that played pong, played space invaders, bought atari consoles and shoved coins into Video games are getting to that retirement age. I don’t want to play bingo, do sing a longs with the piano, or any of that stuff considered to be “my age”. I want to play MMOs, be thoughtfully challenged, have a complex persistent world. I guess perhaps, we aren’t the generation that they want, although we are the one that paved the way. I suppose thats why some cling to the older games, Everquest, etc, just not happy with the spoon feeding.

I will see what happens to EverquestNext. They claim to be returning to their Everquest roots, with a lot of new bells and whistles. Be interesting to see how that works for them.

I like ANET, I really do. I can live with the mechanics of the game, live without particle sliders, extensive graphics customization, a lot of things I took for granted in older games. But.. I don’t know how long I can deal with the new content. To me, it does not live up to their own standards they have set in the past. It seems far too shallow, to me.

Our main disagreement is I don’t see real, indepth, quality innovation, from any producer. I do see improvements, adaptations, quality changes, ease of movement, etc. I see Innovation in how “kill ten rats” is presented, but it remains “kill ten rats” and that is where I am not really seeing huge strides from UO -WOW- today. For me, the “kill ten rats” is the repetition.. over and over and over.. not ten rats in a quest but more oh god.. the wolfmaster… again.. and he has become fodder in a “kill 10 rats” achievement daily.. quest.

Its like the new stuff. Wow, new stuff, fun stuff, different stuff. Now.. just do it another 35 times. or more. That just smacks it back to rat grinding for me.

We will always disagree, but I do feel much the same as you in the above quote.

Torpian.9142:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe. I’ve typed enough.

You’ve typed more than enough. I didn’t play those games…I’ve sold them, watched them, researched them. I never visited 19th century Europe, but I sure as hell sold a story about it.

In fact, people who have played games pre-WoW are actually LESS knowledgable about the genre, because they have to deal with the fact that this is a completely different genre today than it was then. Completely 100% different. Times have changed, the playerbase has changed, the thrust of the genre has changed.

It’s like saying no one who hasn’t read Shakespeare can edit a modern novel. They have nothing to do with each other.

Stuff that’s happened in the last eight years in an industry that changes rapidly is far more important than anything any of the older games did.

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Once again, I have to agree with Vayne on this one. If innovation was purely born out of experience, it would be our senior citizens that companies would want to hire so they can invent new things for us. Companies hire young people for a reason. You kind of remind me of Grandpa Simpson Teofa.

Hate to break it to you, but you can buy a new car today, superior in every way to one made 100 years ago, and still find… the manufacturer didn’t invent the wheel, the internal combustion engine, the radio, etc etc, and they know enough not to claim that they did.

And yeah, the “Older” people who run companies do hire those “Younger” ones.

Bye Vayne. Not talking in circles with you. I’ll just go get my geritol, plug in some Matlock reruns, redye my hair blue and listen to Cab Calloway on my Victrola. After that, Ill play some Pong or Checkers. Im too old to comment on vidya games I reckon.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe. I’ve typed enough.

You’ve typed more than enough. I didn’t play those games…I’ve sold them, watched them, researched them. I never visited 19th century Europe, but I sure as hell sold a story about it.

In fact, people who have played games pre-WoW are actually LESS knowledgable about the genre, because they have to deal with the fact that this is a completely different genre today than it was then. Completely 100% different. Times have changed, the playerbase has changed, the thrust of the genre has changed.

It’s like saying no one who hasn’t read Shakespeare can edit a modern novel. They have nothing to do with each other.

Stuff that’s happened in the last eight years in an industry that changes rapidly is far more important than anything any of the older games did.

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Ok, its amusing now. You do know that there are MMOs older than 8 years still being played? Still part of the “genre”? And new games, developed by people who should know the new metrics (Im looking at you, Bioware) that have less people playing them than some of the dinosaur games?

But.. by your logic, I’ve played more MMOs, longer, and so, know less. Okie Dokey.

Again, People can love GW2 will all their heart without claiming all that is claimed.

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe.

And not having played Pre NGE SWG, you don’t know how innovative that was, and how many things done there are only now coming back. Do you even know who Rafe Koster is? And mind you.. I said innovative.. not the “greatest game evah” , it was full of holes. But.. to address your first claim, there were no roles, no classes, no “dedicated” anything. There was no quest path.. only minor side quests that added a bit of flavor. Total sandbox.

@Galen Grey

Fine, Ill bite.

Dynamic “Events”. SWG. Galactic Civil War, for years, players, and players only, controlled who owned what, access to cities, planetary control, what NPCs spawned where.. and it never reset. Players had to change things, and they stayed changed till other players undid it. Right until the end. And each server was different. Mine was actually won by the Empire.. one of the few. SWG was also dynamic in that originally, nearly all pvp was centered upon Player created fortresses. You popped a base in rebel territory, and it was there until they took it from you. I base I placed lasted 2 years. (pre NGE)

Everquest 2. World Events. Players permantly changed the game. We did events to add a playble race, add griffen stations, add wizard portals, add guild halls,add travel to other continents, and the world changed permanently. Test Server did not have Froglok race for many years, they did not have the population to do the event to unlock the race.

Dynamic, to me, is not a repeatable kill ten rats event that resets on a timer, sorry.

Freedom of Choice. Again, SWG pre NGE. No professions, only skills. Most players were combinations of 3 or more “professions”. There was no trinity either. No combat roles. You could spec in so many different ways. Crafting..totally custom. You set the specs on what you produced. Or, the customer did. There were no “questlines” or paths, you decided. Your “personal” story was what YOU chose to do.

Meaningful exploration? Go to point A and get a checkbox ticked? Meaningful exploration is up to the explorer. There are easter eggs in every game, map uncovering, rewards. I will grant that ANET did do the checkoff style with chest rewards. And again, going back to SWG.. in 2003 they had exploration that was not a point marked on a map. You found them by accident, and they led to titles. (later they did appease the wowcrowd by adding markers for them)

Weapons? In SWG the best weapons possible were made by players. Period. Some comps were rare drops, but if you wanted the best, you NEVER had to enter any dungeon. In fact, there were very few of those.

Vanguard.. choice. I can craft them, I can instance them. Same with EQ2, my chars are full fabled with either crafted, or token armor I earned soloing.

Living story.. again, Everquests, SWG. Pretty living when players band together, as a server, to permanently change that server.

Minigames. pretty common. Most holidays are full of them. In Vanguard, the Diplomacy minigame is a full fledge profession of its own, you level in it, and you can leverage buffs that effect entire towns and persist beyond them.

Temp content every 2 weeks. Yup.. thats new. yet to be seen how it will play out.

Same with your commentary re combat. I don’t see what you see here, and I think it is player perception. I do not see the flexibility here to do what you listed. Ill give you that one, but I dont buy it as new.. since I played PRE NGE swg with no classes or “roles” at all.

But this wall of text means nothing. Really. You like GW2 or you don’t. I just get a bit tired of the claims of “no game ever before”. That is just flat out wrong and is claimed far too much, Not by ANET, but by fans.

Love the game. Don’t put it on an altar and worship it.

Vayne.8563:

OP, I really enjoy this game. I love the new content. You’re right. No MMO has ever done what Anet is doing. Some people like it, some people don’t.

I’m pretty sure those that like it spend more time in game than on the forums.

Enumerate just what GW2 has done, that hasn’t been done before. There isn’t much.

Again Vayne, I question your overall knowledge of the genre.

GW1 is unique. GW2 is everymmo stuffed into a very artistic package.

Interesting statement. Let me see now, John Smedley, CEO of SOE, said “people who like the new game are playing it, and not on the forums” … when NGE lost a ton of subcriptions to SWG and forced them to refund the cost of an expansion to anyone that asked for it. That statement has been made too much, and means nothing.

GW2 is a good game. Or, not so good, depending on your tastes. It is not the be-all, end-all of gaming.

As far as thanking them? They provide a service I paid for. So does my garbage company, my power company, my IP provider, etc. I don’t “thank” them unless they address an issue for me. I’ll thank ANET customer service if they do the same.

Celestina.2894:

Crawford.4135:

Viking Jorun.5413:

No.. Your face is funny. It’s like a little raisin.

Pff, now watch some Moderator will come in here, not knowing where that came from, and hand you an infraction for saying that to another player.

Speaking of which…….I’ve been infacted so many time with no punishments. Starting to think the mods are just dogs without teeth.

Google Two Pi Team. Its a German company who provides moderation bots. Last I checked, Anet used them, as well as a ton of other game forums.

I doubt a moderation for hire team knows much about the game, but banning does have to be approved by an actual Anet employee.

KeresLee.5192:

The more I preview the light female armor, the more I like it!

Really hope it becomes available soon!

Lady Kasmeers set looks like

cesmode.4257:

The OP has a point. A lot of people like the content being pumped into the game, a lot do not. I personally, think it is all BS fluff. I would rather have monthly updates with some impactful event going on that leaves a scar on the game. Like Divinities reach partially destroyed, or a giant crater of some sort in Kessex hills. Or all of the sudden, an oasis of lush land suddenly growing over night for some unexpected (but explained) reason in Plains of Ashford.

A lot of people like their mini games, collect 1000 candy pieces, find a few interesting things in the world to turn in, etc…but is this really what we want as a playerbase? It seems that it is all we are getting. With each update ever since March or April, its been some light story with a lot of minigame and some candy to eat..with some flare of fireworks or some decoration. Nothing of substance, of importance that makes me sit back in my chair and say “Holy hell, I can’t believe my eyes”..its all “Ah, thats cute.” And “ah thats cute” doesn’t cut it for an MMO, especially one that has unlimited potential such as GW2.

Edit: Does anyone else feel like checkbox-machines with these new updates? Make sure you complete the requirements for achievements so that you get more free reward…more carrots. I literally sometimes feel that I am checking things off as I go, instead of just playing.

Pretty much how I feel, and I will add, while I don’t mind the occasional pop culture easter eggs, basing entire instances on ancient 8 bit games or some mediocre teen fad book is waaay too much.

What about Cantha. Joko. The mordant crescent. GW stuff. Stuff from the lore ANET wrote concerning the changing of the world. There is a HUGE chunk of Tyria out there that would make better stories than what’s popular on FB.

Given the last few stories, I’m expecting a Centaur/Branded alliance. Yes.. Bronies.
I’m expecting Ninja. Then Ninja Pirates. Then Airborne Ninja Pirates. Along with a wizard school, a secret coven of Sparkly vamps with sparkly weapons, and a gorilla going wild tossing ale barrels around.

Or perhaps, the Thundercats will come, and with the help of them, along with Chuck Norris, we can form Voltron and defeat some random dragon using a magic Ocarina.(Ocarina available for a limited time at Black Lion Store)

Simplicity.7208:

If I made a post all in caps with “kitten” for every third word. I guarantee you wouldn’t read it either. I don’t read rage posts. They’re not full of constructive criticism. Constructive criticism is organized, grammatically correct, emotionally neutral, and usually with a tldr; version at the bottom capitalizing on key points. If OP goes back and revises his post to be more calm. I certainly will hear him out.

Regardless of tone, if you refuse to read a post, refuse to respond to it. Why post a response to what you “assumed” or “guessed” someone posted. What logic is this?

Gems have a set real world currency value. Gem card?

But w/e. Regardless of the currency all games I have seen with high value rare chance items bundle them with a purchase of something else, be it a chest, a loot cube, a card pack, or w/e, and its done to avoid “gambling” laws applying to RMT.

Archon.6481:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Oh well, hey, thanks for the oh so helpful advice. If I was “skilled” the 2 of us could have held that keep. If I was “skilled” I wouldn’t have been chainpulled off the cannon twice. If I were “skilled” I wouldn’t have died 2 more times trying to get back in. If I were “skilled” I wouldn’t have lost 2g or so for the loss of a keep I fully upgraded and escorted yaks to for “phat profits”

Obviously, that mob of people is far more skilled than I. I wasn’t able to get out of downed state as fast as 20 of them insta rezzing. Im so bad at this game. Gosh.

And where was our Zergball.. I dunno. Probably running a bag and karma train, just like this zerg. This is not even a rare incident, it is all too common. I’ve screamed for help in fully upgraded, waypointed keeps and had 3 people come, losing them as well.

Bottom Line.. the people that do the thankless stuff, for their server, don’t make gold. They die the most. They get the least. Skill has nothing to do with it. Armor repairs just add more coin drain vs little income or incentive.

But thanks.. I already know I’m “doing it wrong” You all just punctuated that fact.

Well darn. Better complain to anet that you tried to fight a zerg and died

Oh, I’m sorry, we contest keeps, towers, camps if we can,even a few vs the zergs. I guess in the lower tiers you just WP out rather than trying? Ok. Um, thanks for the tip.

You missed the point btw, but I’m done trying to make it.

concept art from so long ago.. the Rapier should have been the weapon of choice for a Mesmer from day one in GW1, and here as well. It is elegant, and fits.

Bad enough Mesmer lost that theatrical feel with most light armors, but no rapier..boo

I laugh at reactions. They can put in NES junk, pop culture junk, baffling junk, and its all good.

Mention mounts and the same people who cheer everything suddenly go into rage deny mode.

No one will get a “gambling” label to stick, that is why the RNG items are in chests, instead of a straight lotto ticket chance.

The argument is that you received the value for your purchase.. the “normal” chest content, with only a “chance” at an rng item. No different than a coke bottle cap with a prize code. You bought the coke, not the prize.

In most games you will find the RMT “rare rng” items will be bundled this way, it avoids most gambling ordinances.

Oh well, hey, thanks for the oh so helpful advice. If I was “skilled” the 2 of us could have held that keep. If I was “skilled” I wouldn’t have been chainpulled off the cannon twice. If I were “skilled” I wouldn’t have died 2 more times trying to get back in. If I were “skilled” I wouldn’t have lost 2g or so for the loss of a keep I fully upgraded and escorted yaks to for “phat profits”

Obviously, that mob of people is far more skilled than I. I wasn’t able to get out of downed state as fast as 20 of them insta rezzing. Im so bad at this game. Gosh.

And where was our Zergball.. I dunno. Probably running a bag and karma train, just like this zerg. This is not even a rare incident, it is all too common. I’ve screamed for help in fully upgraded, waypointed keeps and had 3 people come, losing them as well.

Bottom Line.. the people that do the thankless stuff, for their server, don’t make gold. They die the most. They get the least. Skill has nothing to do with it. Armor repairs just add more coin drain vs little income or incentive.

But thanks.. I already know I’m “doing it wrong” You all just punctuated that fact.

doesn’t matter how nice the pistol and rifle are modeled, the scaling is so huge they are just more junk

But thanks to previews, more lackluster content I can now just skip.

CC Danicia.1394:

My Norn would definitely be the one running around in pink and purple.

Princess Sparkly Bear? :p

lordkrall.7241:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Loot bags. Reality Check Accomplished. Most reward for least effort. Follow the dorito.
It may not be the “reason” they run in the ball, but it is the only way to gain coin while playing wvw.

Hm?
I usually get quite a bit of coin when running smaller 2-5 man groups. Every single event done gives coin, and many of those don’t require a zerg.

The fact that you seems to believe that the only way to gain coin in WvW is to zerg shows a rather big lack of understanding of the format.

I understand the format well, thank you. You know, the format where a tiny % of players pay for upgrades, try to not lose upgrades by defending, and generally spend most wvw time spending cash upgrading things the zergballs don’t care about.

When I die losing a camp, its not just repair, its cost of 4 upgrades usually. For something like the North camp, I’ll die till the camp is taken, running back, holding the circle, running back as fast as I can to keep the upgrades. Repair gets big. You don’t seem to understand the entire format, Repair cost needs to be gone, to benefit ALL playstyles.

You know how many worthless wvw “missions” it takes to pay for a keeps upgrades? Honestly? I think not.

Repair just adds insult to injury for those of us who actually upgrade.