Guild Wars 2

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

So, what you’re saying is “I play for Da Lootz”

In that case, I don’t really have comforting words. Da Lootz is bad. You could only try to switch to a “Dont need Da Lootz to have fun” point of view, but that is not for everybody.

No. What I mean is that play should be rewarding, that I should not be shocked at looting a full venom sack, and that maybe, just maybe I should not burn up items worth 25 silver to craft an item worth 1.

What I am saying is when players post a waypoint in chat for an event, I should not have to think about the cost of getting there. I should not see an event and think “no drops, no coin, chance of 4 silver lost, no way”

And, I enjoy crafting, I enjoy outfitting my chars in items I have crafted, in every MMO I have played. I would like to not feel like an idiot for doing so, knowing I should just sell the comps and buy gear.

I’ve never been about “phat lewt”. No loot.. that is a different thing.

I want to play this game. Even though I find faults compared to GW1, I want to play this game. Since I met Jora, I have always wanted to play a “Jora” in a persistant mmo.

I log in, I have tons to do, that isn’t the problem. The problem is disappointment and then wanting to just quietly log off.

I don’t need the game on a platter, do not need rares dropping like mana from heaven, do not need scads of gold. But, I would like to play for 3 hours and loot more than 4 crafting components. I would like to craft without knowing that nothing I make is possibly worth the opportunity cost of selling the components.

I would like to use a waypoint to help with an event without knowing that anything I make from the event was already spent to get there. I would like the challenge of taking on the tougher mobs without the knowledge that it likely will drop nothing, and that waypoint and repair will undo any miniscule coin gain I’ve made in an hour if I get downed.

You made a game that is extremely easy to level in, but seem to assume that EXP is the only reward needed for killing mobs. Your loot drops are the worst I have seen in 10 years of MMOs, and not talking about greens, rares, etc, but common coin trash and common mats, and this extends to open world Champions and Veterans.

I should feel something more than “omg why am I even trying” when I go out try and get my own crafting drops, or the coin to pay for the overpriced ones on the market.

I agree that games need gold sinks. I agree that death should cost. I agree that rares should be “rare”. But along with that.. you need a drop rate of common items and common craft mats that allow paying for the sinks, the deaths, and the “rares” you can’t seem to loot. No player should hit the “jackpot” by killing common mobs, playing the game, but they should see a steady, if small, financial gain.

And finally, someone will say “gold is easy, play the market”. No thanks, I don’t want to add insult to a broken system.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Curuniel.4830:

That seems weird to me Konig. When Ascalon Settlement was founded, humans still held Ascalon City and were still fighting against the charr. Sure it was post-Searing, but the kingdom wasn’t exactly lost. Wouldn’t the people who wanted to fight the charr have stayed and done so with, presumably, what remained of the national army? Those who followed Rurik to Kryta were basically acknowledging, to my mind, that Ascalon post-Searing was a lost cause. That’s something we know King Adelbern had problems accepting :P I don’t recall hearing anything from Ascalon refugees in Prophecies about intending to take the fight back to the charr one day.

From Nolani Academy, end cinematic.

Prince Rurik: “Trumpets! The king must be near. The fall of Rin will have darkened his heart. Hail King Adelbern!”
King Adelbern: “Rise, my son. you have done well. The discovery of Stormcaller is surely a sign of victory.”
Prince Rurik: “It is a powerful weapon, but I fear not powerful enough. The Charr have amassed an army of many thousands.”
King Adelbern: “You overestimate these beasts, Rurik. Do not be afraid.”
Prince Rurik: “I am not afraid, father. I have seen them in battle. Rin has been destroyed! It would be wise to escape while we can. We should make for Kryta and rebuild our strength. Not wait here for death.”
King Adelbern: “I will never allow Ascalons to live in the shadow of the Krytans! It is Rin that will be rebuilt. And you will learn your place.”
Prince Rurik: “You have grown proud, Adelbern of Ascalon…proud and foolish!”
King Adelbern: “You would dare call your king a fool? I will hear no more. I banish you from Ascalon! You are no longer my prince, and you are no longer my son!”
Prince Rurik: “People of Rin! Your king will lead you to death. If you wish to see better days, if you wish to live, then leave the beasts behind and follow me over the Shiverpeaks. We make for Kryta and a new life, free of the Charr.”

Rurik’s plan was to rebuild their strength in Kryta, then retake their land with said restrengthened troops.

How in the world did you infer that from the Nolani mission cinematic. “A new Life, Free of the Charr” in no way implies what you suggest. What you bolded was advice.. given by Rurik, that led to his banishment and disownment.

They were refugees, making a new home, led by a disowned and banished Prince.

Nothing about the flight of farmers and common citizens to safety implies rebuilding and retaking Ascalon. The entire cinematic context matters, as well as the actual flight of what was in NO way an army retreating to build strength. The missions that follow this clearly show that.

Jora, THE iconic Norn Female Warrior, showed a lot of skin, and hip. Would you label her a “kitteny skater punk”? Or, perhaps you didn’t play GW1, so, just in case http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jora/Armor_gallery

Honestly, if you have prudery “issues” with armor, don’t buy it. Plenty of other armors in game.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s old concept art from a concept artist who has done quite a few of the armor designs – especially dungeon armors, including heavy CoF armor, T3 human (dubbed “Crescent Moon” armor), and Whispers heavy.

Artist’s wiki category: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Art_by_Hyojin_Ahn
Original concept art: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Norn_svanir_female_concept_art.jpg

Instead of being proto Sons of Svanir, I’d say that was one of the armor designs for Honor of the Waves.

And I would say, from the file title, that it simply, as the op suggested, Norn Svanir Female concept art. Pretty simple.

As for what happens to the females that go to fight the icebrood.. no one knows.

God, I detest lore know-it-alls who flatly state that their “opinion” is fact.

8:55 US central Ft Aspenwood. Free Ascalon Settlement.
Level 31 char, never done event prior. I lost count of Veterans at 5, no drops. Champion Warrior, no drop. Champion Beast, omg, a drop!! A level 1 Mighty Sceptre!!

my faith in the system is so restored!!

Ok, again specifically to the statement they made that Champions should drop loot. Against my better judgement I helped 4 players take down the Champion Jotun Magekiller in Dredgehaunt today. Nobody got a drop. 5 players.

This guy wants to fight in a tiny stockade that allows very little dodge or kite (you get stuck on props) has CC and does tremendous spike damage.. and on top of that, will chase retreating players to his leash point, go invul, and fully regen. This is a fight that should have a payoff.. and never does.

I’ve NEVER seen a drop from this Champion, and given that the fight is a royal pita I will just trot past the next time I see players engaging him.

The silver from this event won’t pay a repair bill or a waypoint charge. Not worth it.

The 20ish karma (pit fighter skin) sets are nice on a female. The skirt is good on a human, really blouses out on a norn. The HOM set is what I used prior to that. clank clank clank. It comes with a sound effect lol.

Human Cultural armor is dreadful. Just… dreadful.

Elisabet Kardijn in Hoelbrek, by the bank. “The Vigil Calls” Not only is she all Norn, but has a melty voice.

I’m female, so its a lot of “I wanna be just like her” when I grow up.

wintermute.4096:

Xaaz.8472:

The amount of Bots still in the game is staggering.

This. The “first generation” of bots aka ranger clone armies with nonsensic names did not even try to cover what they do. That those alone are gone means nothing at all. After a short break, they got replaced by the teleporting bots that usually stick to areas no one ever bothers with, and thus are hard to report.
Apparently, anet still relies heavily on user reports, so the next generation will probably just port away instantly if any player ever gets in their radar range, so we can not even see them. Nonetheless, they will always be there, and the marketing department will always announce that they are extinct forever…

Funny, 3-4 shortbow ranger teams are all I see in open world. Long after the “big banning”, and I would hardly call running the steam portals or jotun in Lormars Pass in plain view as caring or even bothering to hide their actions. Also, it is not nonsense names, they are high level accts, in guilds. Probably stolen, but who knows.

All I know is the potential income from the 10 days of 24/7 botting that I observed and reported makes losing a 60 dollar acct. pretty trivial operating cost.

Addendum. I just went to Vanjir’s Stead in Lormars (Ft Aspenwood).. and, the exact same team of 3 bots is still there.. the ones I reported over and over.. BEFORE wintersday started. Odds are they have been there nonstop all this time. I had reported them so much I feared I would get in trouble. And.. they are assuredly bots. There is a tree they stick on occasionally, and they jump in place till their AI tells them to dodge.

I know it was prior to Wintersday, because I recall all of a sudden a mystery present appeared in the Bot path, and I was able to “accidently” kill one of the bots several times by “accidently” opening it when one got separated from the others. (They were back in action in about 20 seconds btw) Anyhow, the bot AI wasn’t smart enough to run from golem toys

Xaaz.8472:

Vol.5241:

Xaaz.8472:

Great job? LOL ok. They haven’t even scratched the surface of botting.

Someone is obviously new to the game.

They destroyed bots to the point that some T6 mats increased from 30 copper to 28s.

Far from new. Don’t try to make yourself look informed. The amount of Bots still in the game is staggering. Go underwater. Bot haven. Oh, how about the teleporting under the world harvest bots that I can sit in Malchor’s leap and watch no less than 50 of them pop up at a single tree within a 15 minute window.

Keep the blinders on bro. They work well for you. Botting is a neverending problem but you keep believing that they have even scratched the surface of the issue.

What this guy said. And they aren’t even bothering to go underwater or hide in some areas. I watched and reported a team in Lormars over a span of 10 days, and odds are they are still there.

There is another team by the steam portals event that actually finishes that event.. eventually killing the portals just by area spam that accidently hits them, day in, day out, I also gave up reporting that bunch after a week of seeing them every day at any hour of the day.

I can almost guarantee if you log into Ebonhawk right now, and check the rat cave, you will find a bot team.

They are everywhere. If you doubt how many, just find an ore node in a higher level area and watch it for 15 mins.

So, I spend the morning in Frostgorge, appropriate level for my 80 war, several events (which ofc I had to run solo), several Veterans taken down, spent 2 hours and got One blue.. a bow. Very few drops at all, off anything.

Got sick of it, decided to run back to Hoelbrek and avoid the waypoint cost. One shotted a level 6 Svanir and pulled a level 75 rare Norn Dagger.

Risk v Reward. Yah. Missing in Action in GW2.

Happens in Hoelbrek randomly, its like someone whacking a bucket and loud enough to lift me out of my chair. No audio settings seem to effect the volume of it either.

Movement and Dodge. Well, I just cleared a Dredge Commissar “event” out of one of the forts in Dredgehaunt, on a Warrior, solo. Not by clearing a gate, not by clearing mobs and fighting my way in, but by running in past all the aggro and circle stafing the Vet while outrunning the horde of enraged dredge and targeting of 6 or so cannon.

Engaging, realistic gameplay? Hardly.

Had I attempted that as a Warrior, in character as a war, using a Warriors signature melee weaponry I would have failed. Instead, winning by cheesy gimmickry is the norm.

Dodge and Movement as the ONLY mechanic is pretty fail. It forces a generic, artificial, unrealistic playstyle that while successful, leaves a foul taste in ones mouth.

Kiting is universal. Get in a situation where the melee mobs spam KD, and they are backed up by ranged AOE casters and you kite, I don’t care what your HP and armor is.

Case in point, there is a siege of an outpost in Dredgehaunt that has a pile of dredge excavators, a veteran, 3 dredge carriers and 3 mortars. I can solo kite the whole thing on my War with a rifle.. and die in 20 seconds if I attempt to do anything else. The game mechanics promote kiting above any other method.

I can make a single statement based on me. My history, in 10 years of MMO gaming is, if I am happy with the games, I’m not on the boards.

Speaking for myself alone, if a game has a flaw that makes reading the boards more entertaining than playing it indicates a problem.

Starting to frequent the boards, for me, usually means I will be moving on soon.

Amariithynar.1470:

To people complaining about respawns and too many mobs that kill you: Consider not building so fragile a glass cannon that you shatter if a vet looks at you. you should be able to easily solo a vet your level or even a level or two above without issues, as well as their attendant commons. If you cannot, fix your build.

Way to not get it. I don’t see anyone complaining regarding difficulty of Vets and attendants. That IS the encounter. Not a Vet, attendant, and the 4 mobs you just killed. Or the 3 more that show up because the ranged mob (you just killed) bombing you proximity aggroed more mobs (you just killed) out of your aggro range. Include adds you gain from areas you just cleared by using your avoidance skills, engineer skills are great for aggroing a huge area you just cleared.

Respawn timer is bad because of the tried and true mechanic of making bosses have HP as their main toughness factor. HP means time, and time in this game means adds you cannot usually avoid by playing smart.

Respawn Adds make scaling and mob difficulty problematic. I would gladly fight tougher mobs, had I the guarantee that I would not be fighting respawn mobs as well.

95-120 second respawn.. rofl. 30-60.. omfg. No wonder stuff is messed up, and bots are rampant. This is why Renown hearts can be done basically by standing in one spot while watching Netflix.

There is a skillpoint in Gendarran hills that requires you to kill trolls, a veteran troll, a pile of oozes and a Veteran ooze, all within close proximity of each other, and the respawn guarantees fighting mobs you just cleared. Just one example. Skill points like this are all over.. Vet Jotun Spiritkeeper in Lormars is another good one.

95-120 seconds is fail in outposts that are taken.. you kill 4 mobs and you cannot possibly res any of the NPCs before you get hit by another wave.. leaving you with no choice but to solo it.

And, somewhat of a sidetrack, given the sorry loot table atm and lack of rewards, I find myself soloing almost all events unless I am in Queensdale or Wayfarer Hills.

Alts need to have a different experience. Not storylines that merge to become cookie cutter, not events that are cookie cutter to every starting area, mobs that are not cookiecutter, etc. Alts should be able to pursue a cultural path till 80 at least. Norn can, to a limited extent, because of Frostgorge for example.

Alts of different races should be able to have unique appearance from the start, including white garbage weapons and armor from vendors. This should not be limited to way overpriced cultural armors. A Silvari should be in their plant based gear from the start and at least have access to the skins throughout their game, not stuck in the selfsame model as everyone else. All gear should reflect the cultural differences from a given area, not just town clothing or overpriced culturals.

And as a confirmed alt o holic for ten years of MMO gaming, I miss choices. I miss factions, I miss the ability to take paths on one alt not available to another. Oh sure, we can be in different “orders”, or have different minor paths based on creation questions.. but that becomes moot at about 45 when personal story becomes a misnomer.

I appreciate ANET trying to change the model of MMO combat and questing. I fail to understand them not even considering many of the desirable features that are pretty much standard in most major MMOs, among these being appearance gear, housing, mounts, potions (cures and heals), faction choices, uniqueness for each Alt char.

Even in GW1 there were very distinct differences starting a char in Prophecies, vs Factions or Nightfall, and it extended to armors and gear, story, mobs encountered, etc. The game experience of a Prophecy Ranger was far different than that of a Nightfall ranger.. and doing both was fulfilling and interesting. I really find it sad that ANET dismissed so many interesting things they had already done in GW1, or just commonplace things like shared and replaceable costumes by acct.

Dodge as the be all, end all is ridiculous. Heavily armored warriors should not be leaping about like rogues in leather.

Melee vs Melee should heavily favor block and parry, not leaping about like some hyperactive wood elf. Block should be inherent with a board, not some long cooldown, essentially worthless slot skill, or a boon applied by another class. Tanks cannot tank by constantly breaking contact.

Dodge is overblown. Reliance on a single avoidance skill is silly.

A board warrior gives up dps for essentially nothing. A board should be worth the tradeoff, it is not. Innovation is not tossing shield use into a waste bin.

I appreciate the console kiddies want real time. Put some form of block on endurance then. Give warriors a chance to melee without constantly leaping out of melee range.

Cookie cutter IS putting every class into the same avoidance mechanic. I don’t buy the argument that this is somehow innovative. It only forces Kite mode with ranged dodging out of AOEs. In too many situations, warriors are only viable because they can circle strafe with a rifle..that is wrong.

I will also add that making all conditions armor-ignoring, with no resistances or ability to resist makes this a condition-is-all fest in PvE. More single dimension combat, not innovative at all. Simplistic is more the term I would use.

And to the poster above me.. Claims to have beaten 30 with 5 “countless” times, or defeating 80 with ten.. yeah, right. I tend to call BS on anything you say after reading that.

I am not a farmer, I mainly wander around, do events, and finish zones. I will not help with Champions most of the time now, as most of my experience has been a non-lootable corpse, or no corpse at all. The few times there is a drop, it is blue trash. I have mostly Norn, have done the Svanir’s Dome event many times, and usually no one will get any drop of any kind.

I pretty much started the game at the time of the “loot improvement nerf”. I have no past to reference, only my experiences that indicate there is slim to no chance of better rewards from doing harder content.. in the world. I don’t do dungeons so can’t comment on those.

Veterans and Champions rarely drop anything for me, and I am usually on a character whose level is within 5 levels of the zone. Yellows I have looted have always been off random trash encountered while exploring and extremely rare. I have yet to get a rare off a Champion, Veteran, or meta event chest at gold levels of contribution.

If you want people to not bother with Champion events and meta chains, this is the way to accomplish that. Given my history of loot from them.. I am already at the point of ignoring them.

I run mid level stuff mostly, my chars are one 80, 4 in 50s, 1 at 25. Champions like the Krait bloodwitch, Jotun Magekiller, Branded Devourer, etc will be up for hours and left alone. I’ve killed Ignious the Eternal at least 5 times for no drop at all. He can stay up forever as far as I am concerned now.

You have a problem. I think it is safe to extrapolate that the bots circuiting on common trash are pulling more rares out of the game than actual players who participate in events do. You have a situation when “Kill the Champion” events come on screen and people don’t care, instead of rushing to help. People ignore meta chains because they know the reward will not be worth the time. Seems to me that improving the rewards for events Bots can’t do would be just common sense, but the reverse seems to be in effect. The ability to bot kill hundreds of Trash Mobs trumps active participation in major events and boss kills.

I did the whole Ogre meta chain yesterday in Fields of ruin. Gold participation at every step. For that entire chain and chest I got 2 common blues 5 levels under my level 43 and a lot of junk and mats. On my way out of the area I stopped to stab some annoying hyena and pulled a 43 Rare off it. Shook my head and laughed (major rune of divinity on it), knowing I would have been better off had I spent the time murdering hyenas as opposed to participating in your Signature content.. events.

Group PvE in this game is an absolute clusterfudge. No other way to put it.

Lack of a holy trinity is good for a soloist game. Oddly, my soloing chars in traditional Trinity games do a better job soloing with NO heals at all than my Wars here do.. with heals. Good concept.. implementation is pretty fail.

I agree that any class should somewhat be able to fill any role.. but.. give them the tools. Nobody can heal spec enough to heal. Nobody can dps spec enough to take aggro. All we have is a pile of players doing their own thing, good or bad, and hoping something dies. The only fundamentally useful group centric skill is the rez, tbh, because it is obvious and can only be used the “right” way, (mostly)

Combos are accidental. CC is random and sometimes detrimental. Other things just come out of the blue.. like having a boss tied up and pounding on it with my War, only to have some idiot knock it halfway across the zone for no other reason than the skill was up.

Lack of any role means every group encounter in the world is like a Pug from hell. No one is learning anything. Everyone just runs up and unloads. It is sooo fun being in the middle of pwning a projectile reflecting boss..and having 3 rangers and an engineer run up and unload every projectile skill they possess and kill everyone but the boss. Roles tend to make people think about wth they are doing in a group.

Well, first off, I would mention that WoW is the sole remaining major MMO without a free to play/cash shop option. So, being subscription free is really not a consideration.

Scaling or not, Anet shot themselves in the foot by express leveling to max. Every MMO’s problem is players at max whining about nothing to do.

I miss low level dungeons with low level, but nice rewards for players leveling up. No point here, you won’t use the gear for more than a day or two while leveling. Crafting is crippled the same way, if you want to craft for your own character, you are going to be outleveled of anything decent you can craft long before you grind the mats to make it. Crafted goods under level 80 are very rarely worth the opportunity cost of the mats.

There is no journey here, only “content”. Content best done by leveling to 80 as fast as you can, then going back and farming it. No learning how to play with a low level skillset, naw, level to max and have everything.

I fear for GW2 longevity, as they promised a dynamic game with little grinding, and the reality is a stale, repetitive, cookie cutter series of “events” and endless grinding for cash/mats with very little in the way of freshness or a feeling of Oh Wow! as you progress.. there is no progression. Get to 80, get gear, then go play the game as a twink. GW1 is “get to 20, play the game” but the huge difference is.. the bulk of the game is level 20+. In HM.. it all is.

I loved going into new zones in Everquest 2, doing a brand new series of quests would net you a sizable pile of plat, and more often than not, decent gear, sometimes outstanding gear. It was always exciting to see what a boss would drop. Here.. no. You want that gear or gold? grind. No other option. Drops? most chests, storyline rewards, champions drop garbage, and in the case of Champions.. sometimes not even trash body loot. I’ll see someone say “anyone for Champion X” and I think.. why.. odds are random trash on the way to it will drop better.. and so I pass.

Once you have completed a zone or two.. you have exhausted the type of content offered. Escorting a pack bull is the same, regardless of who is attacking it. Clearing an outpost of “x” enemies is the same. Killing the Champion Whatever terrorizing the whoevers is the same. Collecting crap in a cave to give to someone outside of the cave is the same. The zones are not new, just a bit different, and the sameness, the sense of Deja Vu is appalling.

And finally, this game is practically choiceless beyond race, gender, profession. Storyline merges to become the same for everyone, there is no faction at all, you are bound into a very small box. Yes.. GW1 was the same.. but at least there the choices were in the mechanics, skillsets, heroes etc. This game has very few choices that are not done at Char creation.

An MMO this big should have choices.. and tradeoffs. Not having factions.. a huge mistake. My piraty thief can’t be piraty pals with bandits and pirates. My vengeful Ascalonian can’t have sympathy with the Seperatists. Our paths are chosen, locked in, our very thoughts and motives pre arranged. No room for any kind of unique character. Such a loss, in a world full of opportunities to follow different paths, we can’t.

Respawn rate across the board is ludicrous. Clearing to fight a boss, forget it, may as well train everything to it and fight.. as that is what you will end up doing anyway. Clearing to a “commune” skill point only be interrupted by the mob you just killed. Events that require you to kill X number of enemies in an area that become endless as 3 more spawn as you kill the “last” one. Events, world, wherever, the respawn rate is far too fast. Half the world isn’t explored because you don’t need to hunt mobs, respawn will drop them in your face faster than looking for them.

And for me the perplexing issue is that Anet has guaranteed a short, always respawned route for the circuit bots. They don’t have to pause, travel far, or wait for essentially nonstop farming. A good part of their Botting problem is giving them respawns so fast.

And to no one in particular.. MMO meaning “forced to group” is as dead as the dodo.

Ah, a little update, did Rat-Tastrophe today. 3 helper NPCs dead in the second wave of destroyers, and no way to avoid aggro enough to rez. Your AI is too stupid to run out of AOEs.. did you forget how to program that? GW1 HM enemies aren’t that stupid. Anyhow, downed twice, stripped armor off and zerged the mission from checkpoint. Quality gaming.. no.

Level 43 war doing a 42 mission, in all rare 40 gear. (mystic forge and cultural weaps). All my good gear accomplished was a 3 silver repair bill for a reward of harvesting tools.

4 condition spamming destroyer crabs at a time, in a cramped area with no room to kite. Real nice. Prayer to Kormir, Shake it off, mending..enough to kill 2 in a wave before going down.

Know what.. the storyline isn’t worth 3 silver.

Oh. and for the person that undoubtedly will chime in on how easy all this is, and lrn2play.. I remember you.. you beat proph with starter armor, Alesia and a pre Rinblade, right?

I gave up and just leveled, then went back. Even then it was usually one death per mission, usually at the “oh wait, there is more” spam spawn. In all cases spawns totally ignore any NPC help and beeline straight to my characters. Forgal was decent help at times, Eir may as well not have been in the instance for any missions with her. For supposedly being solo missions they are very poorly designed and balanced. Good design is NOT zerging from a checkpoint till you eventually thin things out.

My so called “personal” story has ended for all 6 of my chars at Lions Arch Sewers. At that point it had nothing to do with my chars anymore, and I want no part of Trahearne.

My main Characters are Norn. NORN. Why am I off screwing around in stinking Kryta and forgetting Jormag exists?

In my opinion, the Story Quests are shallow, tedious, unbalanced for some classes, and have no real options or choices.

I am very glad I read the Trahearn spoilers. I won’t waste any more time on this canned story.

For all I care, Trahearn can summon Kormir, conjure up Gwen and Togo, and they can have a ball leaching fame off each other and doing nothing.