Guild Wars 2

The guild hall specifically doesn’t have a TP to keep you in cities.

Maybe i’ll stop being put in a jail cell.

…Oh who am i kidding, they’ll increase the interval for that mechanic so that it occurs more frequently.

Is it really something to celebrate though ?

I mean really, it’s an update that will mostly address the flaws, which could have been fixed incrementally instead of waiting to fix them in bulk which in turn helped drive down player activity due to the perception of nothing happening behind the scenes until this patch.

Everyone has money, Great increase price to 300g.

A few months later, lets create an economic great depression, a minority has gold, no change.

Flawless.

Forgive me, but who ?

And why should anyone care ?

Gonna say poor engie play.

Not because i think bad of the person, but because like many others it was working fine for the raids i ran today.

LittleAussieMozzie.7425:

Ellie.5913:

And we don’t have a bunker meta at all you shoulda been here last season then you would of seen a REAL bunker meta.

Wow… Just wow, are you in complete denial? are you playing this game at all? go read the pvp forums… I am not only the person voicing their opinion about builds being too bunker and requiring 2 people to effectively kill them..

Do about 10 minutes research or just go play ranked pvp yourself (It seems you haven’t).

And once again… Stop mentioning the last season, YES it was a lot more slow paced and way more bunkers doesn’t change the fact this season is as well…

Breaking news, stop the presses. PvP being a team based game which may require you to have some element of cohesive teamwork to burst out something that has active damage mitigation…..

More news at 11.

LittleAussieMozzie.7425:

TexZero.7910:

LittleAussieMozzie.7425:

Ellie.5913:

Umm no idea what your’e talking about, meta before last patch was WAY more tankyer. To me everything dies way too fast right now which I personally find boring. Run in everyone dies in 2 seconds, rez repeat.. not my idea of fun.

Exactly what I was asking… So you still enjoy this slow paced PVP by sounds of it.

irrelevant the old way it used to be.. Just cause it wasn’t as tank as before.. doesn’t mean its not slow paced at the moment.

It was even tankier before is their point, so what you are now calling slow paced, is actually faster than it’s been since maybe launch when base specs were over-tuned.

Lol, even if it was tankier before say before it took 20 minutes to kill someone 1 v 1, now it takes 15 minutes thats still kitten and slow paced.. This is the point I am trying to make…. More sustain is too forgiving, but I guess thats the only way to cater to very new players.

I don’t think you get it. They’ve pretty much outside of 1 or 2 amulets gutted passive defensive stats. This means, if you as a player are unable to kill someone in a 1v1, look at yourself not the game.

LittleAussieMozzie.7425:

Ellie.5913:

Umm no idea what your’e talking about, meta before last patch was WAY more tankyer. To me everything dies way too fast right now which I personally find boring. Run in everyone dies in 2 seconds, rez repeat.. not my idea of fun.

Exactly what I was asking… So you still enjoy this slow paced PVP by sounds of it.

irrelevant the old way it used to be.. Just cause it wasn’t as tank as before.. doesn’t mean its not slow paced at the moment.

It was even tankier before is their point, so what you are now calling slow paced, is actually faster than it’s been since maybe launch when base specs were over-tuned.

katz.8376:

thank you for the screenshot.

to be fair, though… that’s a discussion about pvp, not raids. but it does answer the question of pvp retaining better than Silverwastes.

meh. back to lagging my way through WvW. this convo is boring again.

You’re joking right ?

Average player time is the very definition of retaining players, the video was released at the time silverwaste was in it’s prime. If those numbers don’t give you the idea that PvP > PvE as far as retaining players, then nothing will because you never wanted it too.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

The proof given was relevant to the quotes at hand, you don’t like it fine but don’t you dare accuse me of being off topic when it was relevant to the topic at hand.

No it wasn’t. The Original Quote was about Raids. As such, it does not move from that. It does not become PvP, because someone made a passing comment that PvP league was as effective as the Raids in Retaining People. Which you said was better then Silverwastes.

Now, to follow that, you still need to go all the way back to the Original quote, which was about Raids, You do not get to stop half way up the line, at the PvP one. So when I asked for Proof, you needed to Provide Proof that PvP League and Raids pertained to player retention. Which would have kept your post on Topic. Which again, you failed to do.

So do you have anything of worth to add to this discussion about Raids?

Really now here is the exact quote you pulled….

Manthas.6234:

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

Here is the hard link so you don’t think im “manipulating” anything here. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Do-you-think-Raids-in-GW2-were-a-bad-idea/page/28#post6096035

I boldfaced answered your desire.

For the guy whose internet is literally can’t load a video. Attached is a screenshot of the numbers from the video. Which also has more data and you really should watch as they cover more than just what is shown.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

You are taking two different topics into account so let me simplify this for you.

Let me clear this up for you, They were talking about raids, this topic is about raids, if you wanted to start discussing PvP, this is the wrong topic.

So let me simply this for you, If that video is not about Raids, and their direct affect on player retention in this game, it adds absolutely nothing to this topic.

I too like not following the discussion only to side track to make my point legitimate.

Please follow the quotes and the discussion before taking quotes of context and claiming for proof only to be given that proof and dismiss it for being off topic.

The proof given was relevant to the quotes at hand, you don’t like it fine but don’t you dare accuse me of being off topic when it was relevant to the topic at hand.

Astralporing.1957:

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

This was before Raids were in the game, so i’m not sure how it is relevant.
As for “retains more players than silverwastes” claim, it’s also not there. The only info we get is a comparison between competitive and noncompetitive players on 1 to 1 basis. There’s no info about relative numbers of one group to the other and no comparison of groups as a whole.

TexZero.7910:

As to the person asking can i prove or show numbers, sure straight from Crystal herself….
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nwad9

Can you guys take your heads out of the sand now ?

I see no numbers about how many players raids retain in this game whatsoever. I see no number comparisons between pvp and other modes either.

You are taking two different topics into account so let me simplify this for you.

The video was in response to a player saying PvP doesnt retain players more than PvE. Video proof otherwise plus charts and graphs withing showcasing this.

You asked for anytime anet has said anything with numbers, in regards to a previous conversation about people working on raids, i’ve provided the numbers in regards to that.

To the people who claim their internet is so bad they can’t watch a youtube video…Get real, you have enough time to be here posting and to play the game you have enough internet to watch a video. So either watch it, or stop complaining for sources. Thanks.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

you quoted me replying to a player about PvP retaining players more than PvE. I gave you the video, watch it perhaps you’ll learn something.

Did you not understand me when I said I don’t have the bandwidth to stream a 30 min video?

Did you not understand that you demanded proof, i’ve given it to you…my work here is done. Your choice to watch it or not.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

I don’t have unlimited Bandwith, so I am not going to stream a 30 min video, you just tell where they say that raids contribute to directly to player retention, and I’ll watch just that segment, if they say it, you win.

you quoted me replying to a player about PvP retaining players more than PvE. I gave you the video, watch it perhaps you’ll learn something.

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

As to the person asking can i prove or show numbers, sure straight from Crystal herself….
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nwad9

Can you guys take your heads out of the sand now ?

Manthas.6234:

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Sarrs.4831:

Manthas.6234:

A few scouts enter the game with no raids, demand them to be added, get them, all the raiders invade, clear them in a week, leave the game for another one with no raids.

Only now I understand that raiders are raiders in a much more literal sense.

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Prove? Nothing.
Just been here long enough to see, that you can’t always trust developer’s word.

Sure, but i can trust the developers word more than a blind cynic. They have the numbers, they’ve shared said numbers. More than anything any forum warrior certainly has done. So please get me number, or get me a dev you find worthy until then, i know which statement has more weight.

Manthas.6234:

Sarrs.4831:

Manthas.6234:

A few scouts enter the game with no raids, demand them to be added, get them, all the raiders invade, clear them in a week, leave the game for another one with no raids.

Only now I understand that raiders are raiders in a much more literal sense.

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Astralporing.1957:

No. I’m saying that it seems content priorities are responsible for content drought. And yes, Raids seem to have the highest priority now.

I didn’t blame the raid team. I blame Anet for making those poor resource allocations. And i blame Raids for being one of the reasons why Anet is making those poor resource allocations.

They may have been a boon to you, but a boon as a whole? I do not think so. I am afraid they had a much more negative than positive impact.

Again, hyperbole. You cannot rationally claim raids have had the highest priority when we know already that from the just shortly after HoT launch about the same number of devs were back restoring SAB. I can’t even begin to guess how many worked on the Shatter Rework, Gliding in Core Tyria (and all the junk that comes with changes to every JP), Skill Balance, PvP/Matchmaking, WvW (and its massive rework which has been going on for months now) and everyone’s favorite the Gem store. But sure lets say raids have had the lionshare for the sake of being disingenuous.

Your accusation literally says, the following…. If we took said 6 devs and asked them to stop everything and push living world we’d be somewhere better than we are now. Which is dead wrong. We’d be in a far far worse state, with nowhere near what HoT promised to ship to its players.

Finally, yes the raids have been a boon to the whole game, sorry your experiences are garbage but that does not change the facts. The game was missing challenging and engaging content that was not a zerg fest, raids fulfilled that role without taking away the core of the identity that was fractals. Now there’s 2 unique pieces of content that play different but present their own unique challenges for players who want to enjoy a challenge. In other words people who aren’t you.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Your hyperbole about the current situation is comical, but wrong. Raids have nothing to do with the content drought.

You’re saying that if the same team was doing anything else except raids they would not have been as succesful?

Because it seems now that all the best/most effective developers were put on raid team (and possibly next expac team) and everything else is being done with those that just weren’t that good enough.

I dont have a crystal ball so i cannot say in good faith what the results would have been. However, if you sincerely believe that 5 people in a company of 200 are responsible for the content drought that’s even more absurd.

What i do see from a consumer perspective is poor resource allocation thus far, but that is not the fault of the raid team. As i stated before there’s virtually 0 reason to have 70 people on expansion pack 2 at this juncture in time, given the current state of the first pack and how much work it still needs.

But sure blame the raids team, saw this coming ages ago anyway. First it was blame the e-sports team, now its raids, next team to be blamed will likely be WvW. Shame players are being this petty about raids when infact they have been a boon to the game as a whole.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Good thing you don’t have to believe it. However, you inability to believe doesn’t change the facts. We know from the boss himself the full time raid team is no more than 5 members. With some assistance from others sure, no one is denying that. However if you want to place blame on a handful of people then you are misguided when there’s another 200 people at that company and 70 of which are already started on the 2nd expansion. The very source of the problem called putting the cart before the horse.

So please get off your crusading high horse. If you want to state your displeasure for the company / its structure fine, but if you cannot be objective about raids being a good or bad idea why even bother posting ?

And its not about believing or not. As I said, its all about pure facts. We getting raid content and we not getting other content. We getting information about Anet happy with locking exclusive types of items behind raids and NO word about adding anything else for anyone else.
It’s literally “Eat raid or gtfo. What, you don’t like raids or like something else? Too bad, because you not getting anything else. Oh, and we plan to add more raid content, hope you like raids.”

You’re using the word fact, i don’t think you understand what that means.

Your hyperbole about the current situation is comical, but wrong. Raids have nothing to do with the content drought.

Rednik.3809:

randomguy.1283:

This isn’t a question for me, this is a question for anet. Do I know why 95% of the devs at anet seem incompetent? no. You and me both wish they would be putting other stuff out, but they just seem to not be for whatever reason.
Your anger is directed at raids but what I am saying is that you are pointing the blame at the wrong place. You should be pointing the blame at the 95% of devs that can’t seem to do anything for the last 6 months.

No, I blaming Anet for focusing on completely wrong direction while ignoring others, and I don’t trust “only 5 devs” at all. 5 devs pumping out full pve-sized map, with new encounters, mobs, SFX, etc.? No way.

Good thing you don’t have to believe it. However, you inability to believe doesn’t change the facts. We know from the boss himself the full time raid team is no more than 5 members. With some assistance from others sure, no one is denying that. However if you want to place blame on a handful of people then you are misguided when there’s another 200 people at that company and 70 of which are already started on the 2nd expansion. The very source of the problem called putting the cart before the horse.

So please get off your crusading high horse. If you want to state your displeasure for the company / its structure fine, but if you cannot be objective about raids being a good or bad idea why even bother posting ?

Ohoni.6057:

This is very much a themepark MMO, there’s something out there for everyone, but not everything is for everyone. In your case it just so happens to be Legendary Armor that isn’t for you.

But this is the problem, just because the existing raid is not for me, and it’s not, and I’m fine with that, that has ZERO bearing on whether or not the Legendary armor is “for me” or not. that will depend entirely on how it looks when it comes out. Just because it’s locked behind content I don’t like doesn’t mean that I won’t like the armor itself, so you can’t reasonably argue that it’s not “for me”.

Except that it has 100% bearing that the Armor is not for you.

The only way to get said reward is to do said content. You refuse to do it ergo not for you.

Even if it was aesthetically the most pleasant thing since sliced bread, it still wouldn’t be for you, as you still would not be putting in the effort. How do we know this ? Because you actively refuse to put in the effort now and push for a mode that caters to your skill level instead. Meaning that the problem for you is the reward and the mode. You need something easier, because you are either incapable or unwilling.

I’m okay with it, unfortunately the game does a poor job of supporting it in a meaningful manner.

There’s numerous QoL things they could do to the roster alone that would be nice, like showing the guild currently being repped by non-repping members, streamlining cross guild chat (right now its kinda funky, links are still an issue), allowing users to re-order their guilds, an accurate last online date as opposed to unknown or over x year(s).

Then there’s actual features they could do, like Alliances (something somehow missing that gw1 had). A mail all members function to alert them to events etc…(because some people just ignore MoTD). I’m sure there’s more things that can be done as well.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but that is not a reasonable option for many. “You can do it if you do raids” is never going to be a satisfactory response, and we would save a lot of pages of discussion if everyone would just understand that.

How is this not reasonable ?
If you want something, do the activity that has it.

If anything the unreasonable request being made is for Anet to 180 at the behest of a very vocal minority of players who didn’t read the blogpost where in it explicitly stated Legendary Armor is a reward of Raiding, and that Raiding is their vision of the Ultimate End Game Challenging group content.

Sorry, you feel obligated to have every piece of content cater to you, but you need a harsh reality check. This is very much a themepark MMO, there’s something out there for everyone, but not everything is for everyone. In your case it just so happens to be Legendary Armor that isn’t for you. You have two options, acknowledge it’s not and move on, or do the content.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but it’s a game. Nothing is needed, everything is a want, and everyone’s wants are equal. Players who want to raid and want to have Legendary armor deserve to be happy, but players who don’t want to raid and want Legendary armor are EQUALLY deserving to be happy. It’s not difficult.

You’re right, nothing is needed. So everything you’ve been stated is nothing more than a pipedream aimed at a selfserving nature from the desire to get Legendary Armor without putting in the same effort others in the game (Where nothing is needed mind you) currently are.

So why should anyone do anything you propose as it’s not needed. Clearly that would be a bigger waste of developer resources than lets say the suspended Legendary Weapons program.

Ohoni.6057:

If you’re a “casual” player you’ll have no need for Legendary armor, it’s not statistically better than ascended.

I’ve heard the same arguments made in progression games, that “if you don’t want to raid then you don’t need raid armor because those stats are unnecessary outside of raiding.”

Let’s please just permanently retire the “you don’t need X” argument.

It’s a game, if people want something then whether or not they “need” it is irrelevant, you don’t “need” anything in a game. If players want it then they have as much right to want it as anyone else does, and deserve a reasonable path to earning it.

I too like to play the semantics game and ignore the point.

Dear lord. Here let me rephrase this for you.
Legendary Armor is statistically the same as Ascended gear and is as such not required and does not fall into the gear grind treadmill. Anyone seeking said items are doing so not out of necessity but out of a desire to have a shiny and as such since it is not a compulsory item should play the content that rewards its if they so want it. Anyone complaining that they cannot get said item’s should henceforth be ignored as they themselves have stated it’s not needed thus it should not be added to further areas of gameplay because it is not a necessity and because of this developers need not waste time on frivolous projects.

Are you entertained now ?

Rednik.3809:

Rising Dusk.2408:

For those asking for the current legendary armor to be made more accessible, ANet will not be doing that (I can say this safely). The Forsaken Thicket legendary armor is a big component of encouraging players to get better at the game and tackle raids, and ANet recognizes that. That would be like making the PvP back piece legendary more accessible to PvP players who can’t progress past Emerald, which they simply won’t do in order to encourage devotion to the game mode.

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun”
Now I feel more and more GW2 turning into a definitely not that kind of game like it was promised to be, kind of game I paid for back in 2012. Retiring from raiding and leaving wow raids behind just to be caught by them again, in a game that promised to NOT be a wow-like game, what a surprise. Sadly, pretty unpleasant one.

It still doesn’t fall into the wow trap…..

If you’re a “casual” player you’ll have no need for Legendary armor, it’s not statistically better than ascended. If you want to raid, you can. If you want to work toward a long term goal in Legendary Armor, you can. It doesn’t have any impact on you as a player. The worst it does is make you feel like you should give content a shot, and that is no different than any other content piece with unique rewards.

Like all leaks, fake until posted on the forums by an anet dev.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not how happiness works. People are not happy because they do what they’re told, that’s something out of an Orwell book. If ANet cares about making players happy, and I assume they are, it does not involve convincing the players to enjoy what ANet thinks they should enjoy, step one is figuring out what the PLAYERS enjoy, and step 2 is delivering that.

People are happy, you the individual are not. Congrats, welcome to being the minority.
As we’ve already gone over you cannot please everyone. You wont be pleased until a “easy mode” comes out, but as seen by your SAB post about dailies, you should never expect to be happy if you as a player think dailies are getting hard. No gameplay designer on earth is going to make a raid that easier than dailies.

If anything they need a nerf, too much easy uptime of protection and other utility with good dps output.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

It’s no different than if i want specific runes or gearsets going to said map where they are rewards.

Locking rune/statsets to specific content is generally considered to not be a good idea, so i agree with you here. It’s no different, and both should be fixed.

You and i disagree. I think having stats gated to specific content pieces isn’t an issue. Play the content. Play the game.

You’re basis for concern is silly, and if you really feel having map specific rewards is irrational need we point you to pretty much the entirety of the game where in specific maps have unique rewards tied to them ? This isn’t a new concept, its part of keeping the game healthy, putting all rewards everywhere dilutes the gaming experience making queensdale no different from that of southsun for anything other than an aesthetic purpose.

Astralporing.1957:

Well, it’s not like I have started pointing out that someone should not speak for the devs. A little consequence here.

I’d like also to point out, that all the examples you brought up can be obtained in what in raids would be the easy mode. If it existed, that is. And there are two different legendary backpacks, so if you want one, you have options.

Or here’s the alternative, they don’t as raids are fine. Those players who want another source of Legendary Armor (now) can raid, and those that don’t can hold out for another source later (not from the same content). Shocking right ?

Though lets be real here, they’re not dumb enough to devalue raids by adding Legendary Armor sources anywhere else to the world for a very long time. So if you want the Armor go to the source.

It’s no different than if i want specific runes or gearsets going to said map where they are rewards.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

I’ve already told you what Anet would like you to do to be happy.

And i am sure that you are fully qualified to do that, with you being their official spokeperson.
…oh wait.

Don’t have to be a spokesperson to realize a pattern at work.

You want The Ascension → PvP, You want Ad Infinitum → Fractal, You want Envoy Armor → Raid.

If the Legendary acquisition is the only thing that is going to make you happy go to the source.

Oh wait, that’s like logical or something.

But hey since you want to bring up the legitimacy of sources, i’d like to point out that your partner and yourself are really good at ignoring the Dev’s and out-right calling them liars. Seems pretty silly to do so and then label others dontcha think ?

Ohoni.6057:

I too like to ignore the facts, it makes for the most healthy conversations and discussions when we blatantly ignore or dismiss what the developers have stated just to further our own personal agenda’s.

Lets continue this another time when you can actually hold an objective discussion that isn’t biased and around you getting rewarded for things you’re not willing to do.

So again, you’re saying “I don’t care if you’re happy,” so again I ask, what if ANet does?

I’ve already told you what Anet would like you to do to be happy.
You want the rewards, play the content that has it. I don’t see how this is a problem and neither does Anet as proven by unique rewards for different game modes being a thing since this games launch.

You want this thing called “happiness” to matter to a group that has no desire to make you happy as you are not the target audience. Sorry, it’s not their job to placate to you. However, you can voice your concerns to the living world team. They’re more than capable of delivering easy content for everyone to do.

I too like to ignore the facts, it makes for the most healthy conversations and discussions when we blatantly ignore or dismiss what the developers have stated just to further our own personal agenda’s.

Lets continue this another time when you can actually hold an objective discussion that isn’t biased and around you getting rewarded for things you’re not willing to do.

Ohoni.6057:

Those players, need to grow up. Realize that they actually have to work for something and go do it. Anet doesn’t need to and should never cater to that playerbase or they’ll do irreparable damage to their own game again.

Again, “those players don’t get to be happy,” but what if ANet wants then to be happy?

If Anet want’s anything it’s for you to play the content they make. Thought this was obvious. The content has hit its success mark, ergo the minority who want to get the loot without the work are not the target audience and need not be considered when we are talking about raids and improvements.

In other words, you want to be happy ? Go Raid.

Ohoni.6057:

You seem to think there’s this magic bullet that solves the problem in an easy mode. Sorry you’re just flat out wrong here. If they want the items, they need to go do raids as they are.

If they want easier content, the rest of tyria exist and living world 3 is coming Soon™.

Yes, but what about the ones that don’t want to do the raids in their current form, but do want the rewards? Your solution is “those players don’t get to be happy,” but what if ANet wants those players to be happy?

Those players, need to grow up. Realize that they actually have to work for something and go do it. Anet doesn’t need to and should never cater to that playerbase or they’ll do irreparable damage to their own game again.

You want rewards, go earn them like everyone else.

Ohoni.6057:

And it would still take less developers for you to play raids than an easy mode, if you want to use that logic.

True, but irrelevant. To catch you up, we’re discussing ways to satisfy players who are not satisfied by raids in their current form. My recommendation is to add easy mode raids, which would make them more accessible to people who, for various reasons, do not find the current raids to be accessible enough.

Now some would argue that these people are wrong, but that doesn’t matter in the least, because that’s how they feel about it and telling them they’re wrong won’t actually change how they feel about it and is a huge waste of everyone’s time.

So then we’re back to “some people feel that the current raids are inaccessible,” and while an easy mode would resolve this in a very simple and relatively low effort manner, this is not the ideal solution for some people on this thread. So the alternative proposed would be to overhaul dungeons in a way that would cause dungeons to satisfy those who feel left out of the raiding process.

My counter argument to this is that I do not believe that dungeons could be significantly improved with even double the effort it would take to implement easy mode raids, likely much more than that, so if the argument is that the devs shouldn’t be “wasting their time” on easy mode raids, then the same would apply several times over to a dungeon overhaul.

And then of course there are the “don’t do anything” crowd, but ultimately this also is a waste of everyone’s time. If ANet does not recognize this as an issue that needs correcting, then they will do nothing, and don’t need any players to tell them to. If, on the other hand, they do recognize this as an issue, then they could take any number of possible courses in correcting it, and as they have a solid track record of heading off miles in the wrong direction before we ever hear they’re in motion, it’s to everyone’s benefit to discuss the best possible solutions before they get too deep into resolving it.

And now we’re here, what do you have to add to the conversation?

That you can’t satisfy people who don’t want to raid, by adding an easy mode. Sorry if they don’t want to raid, they wont raid.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink.

You seem to think there’s this magic bullet that solves the problem in an easy mode. Sorry you’re just flat out wrong here. If they want the items, they need to go do raids as they are.

If they want easier content, the rest of tyria exist and living world 3 is coming Soon™.

Therefore all anet needs to do is keep doing them, and ignoring the irrational complaints made by the minority in this thread.

Ohoni.6057:

My assumption is that any answer to that question would take significantly longer to implement, and involve a higher number of developers than the easy mode raid concept I laid out, but prove me wrong on that one.

And it would still take less developers for you to play raids than an easy mode, if you want to use that logic.

Raids are fine, they were a great idea.

People, they know who they are, seemingly are the problem.

Astralporing.1957:

There’s also a big difference between locking out a skin, and a whole gear tier.

So, not a great example.

It’s actually a perfectly fine example as legendary armor aside from stat swapping which is a moot point anyway is nothing more than a glorfied skin. It being purple doesn’t change the fact that the stats are the exact same as ascended.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

I think more recipes with tokens would be a great start, if they’re willing to put a few one off weapon skins into the game. Maybe some more cosmetic auras/infusions?

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Yeah, assets from the dungeons available as guild hall decorations is actually a fantastic idea. Members could trade dungeon currency for decoration tokens. It would be a cool guild activity to work towards, and is a natural fit since dungeons are already group oriented content.

The assets already exist too, it would be a little work for some very cool payout. I think Guild Hall decorations are one of the best things they’ve done in the expansion, aside from the costs associated with them, which they’re fixing soon.

110% agree with all of the above.

As for infusions, i think this is a neat concept which can be expanded upon by having jewel crafting 500 (and some unique materials from dungeons/tokens/recipes).

Henry.5713:

Seems a pretty obvious choice to ArenaNet considering how the majority of players is complaining about it.

Hard to call it a majority when it’s the same 3 people.

It’s also hard to take those same 3 people remotely seriously after a post like the following. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/SAB-Dailies-ramping/
As if the already easy mode wasn’t easy enough, they still complain.

Not sure how anything can be ramping in difficulty when there’s infantile mode and several guides out there for just about every daily.

Crise.9401:

Khyan.7039:

Clouds from the long way are still there.

No they definitely are not… at least around the gong temple and afterwards there definitely are no clouds. For Z3 the clouds are there, but not for Z2. In Z2 although some of the helpful hands are still there eg. around the cong temple in infantile mode, the clouds they are supposed to be pointing to are not.

@Greymantle: looks like we were basically talking about the same thing then.

@Esquilax: Of course you can reach them the normal way, that is not the point, the point is ANet wasn’t consistent about this, see the clear difference between Z2 and Z3. Plus it sucks that this invalidates bunch of guides, other than those two things I am all for more participation in the actual level.

I mean infantile mode is a bit of a cheap way to get achievements after all, but they should have at least been consistent about it then.

You can still get it even in infantile mode. You just have to do so more jumps and not use the clouds exclusively. You can even backtrack or just flat out suicide to get back to a prior checkpoint or area.

Not even going to bother with this quote chain as it’s gone back too the following

Nope and My idea is better than nothing. Which it’s not.
It still doesnt answer the following and presumes that the developers are incompetent and have not balanced the current raid to be done by average players.

So until ohoni can give logical feedback based on any merit that is not completely and utterly biased there’s no point in discussion.

It’s pretty sad that after being told countless times to stop assuming, and you yourself preaching to others not to assume that you have to resort to….assumptions.

There’s not a single logical argument made here by the “easy mode” team that doesn’t open up a can of worms when it comes to design time, balance, rewards, or the ever so slippery slope of what if their mode is still to hard for them.

Ohoni.6057:

Assuming easy mode is balanced at the right level, nothing, the same as if someone can’t do low level Fractals. There is a reasonable balance point to this game, that is vaguely consistent across most content. If the easy mode is consistent with this balance point, then most players would be capable of overcoming it, because otherwise what are those players even doing in a game where they can’t complete most of the content? Besides, with ten other players involved, and the content being balanced around them all being fairly average, if a few of them are well below that average the group would still be likely to be able to pull out a victory without needing to do anything exceptional.

But you ARE the vocal minority in this story, the ones that enjoy hard mode raiding and talk constantly about how great it is.

You sure like to assume a lot. Like for instance that it would be easy to do, take only so much time, bring in more players. Lots of assuming going on here, nothing to prove it other than hot air.

Yet again, though you seemingly don’t get it. Raids by their very nature and design are not meant to be “most content”. It is meant to be challenging content that pushes you as a player. Easy modes don’t and never will accomplish the goals set forth by this design.

You also assume that 10 average players cannot complete the raid, I submit that you that 10 average players can complete the raid and that you are probably not anywhere near as good a player as you believe yourself to be. This is pretty much evidenced by your unwillingness to learn, and adapt as well as your fear of failure. That you are not the person this content is designed for and thus are not the person whom anyone designing should listen too because your reasons are hyper-inflated and biased beyond belief.

Now then, you’ve failed to answer what happens in your model when even the average joe group cannot complete the mode. How much easier does it have to be, how many more “easy” modes do you need for the problem to be solved and how much more dev time do you really want to allocate to placating the minority whom the content isn’t even designed for ?

Ohoni.6057:

Again, you are trying to change it. In doing so you are also changing what the core essence of what raids are, thus doing harm to not only the mode but the community. Sorry you’re just willfully ignoring this yet again.

Nope. Not trying to change raids one bit.

Not even a little.

You like how raids are right this very minute, then good news!

Even if I get my way 100% on this, you’ll be able to log in after that patch and continue to raid exactly like you’re raiding tonight!

Nothing about that will be changing whatsoever.

There will just be another version.

and that version would be different, you might not like that version, but that’s ok. because that version is not intended for you, it is for people who are different than you are, who like different things. And they can play it, and you never have to, and everyone can be happy.

I guess we agree, you’re vote should be irrelevant then, because you are only unhappy because you cannot experience happiness due to others putting in more to be happy than you are willing to do.

You’re not making sense. I was talking about those players who couldn’t be happy if an easy mode exists, even if they never had to actually play in it, about those players who would be upset if more people could participate in raiding, or if more people had Legendary armor, because they’d feel less like the special snowflakes they know they are. What I’ve been proposing is to have BOTH hard raids for people who like hard raids, AND easy raids for people who prefer easy raids, so that BOTH groups can be happy doing the thing THEY enjoy doing, and the only people who could possibly be upset would be those who can only have fun when they know that someone else is having less fun.

You never cease to entertain me. Why do you keep missing the point ?

What do you do when someone else can’t do “easy” mode ?

They will be unhappy, as you are now because you refuse to raid. Adding content to appease the vocal minority who the content isn’t designed for isn’t going to solve the problem. It’s just going to exacerbate it.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, which is why nobody is trying to change their content.

Nope. It might remove the fun for some people, but everyone’s tastes are different and they never have to engage the version they do not find fun. But it would make it more fun for a lot of other people, and those people would now have the option of playing the version that they find to be fun. Everyone wins, nobody loses.

You’re talking about a very small group who enjoy self-harm? That is the raid community in this analogy, and you’re right, they don’t need houses built for them to shock themselves in.

Well, there’s not need for that. The raids don’t have feelings. Their feelings are not hurt if there is also an easy mode raid. Actual human beings are made less happy if they don’t have easy mode raids to play in, their feelings count for more than the inanimate object’s.

Yes, but people who are unhappy only because other people are happy should not get a vote. Those are bad people.

Again, you are trying to change it. In doing so you are also changing what the core essence of what raids are, thus doing harm to not only the mode but the community. Sorry you’re just willfully ignoring this yet again.

The subset of people being used in that analogy was not the raiders, congrats for ignoring the point yet again. You want content directed for you, Player J wants content even easier than what you want. Sorry the line has to be drawn somewhere, and it should be at the origin of what the mode was built around being. A challenging piece of content, not some watered down garbage. You want that, silverwaste exist.

Actually human beings are never happy no matter what you give them. You could be given an easy mode tomorrow but you’ll be back here demanding more and more and …..more.

Spoken like someone who has no passion. The raids contains the feelings of every person who worked on them, and every player whose participated in them.

I guess we agree, you’re vote should be irrelevant then, because you are only unhappy because you cannot experience happiness due to others putting in more to be happy than you are willing to do.

Can we conclude the thread now that you’ve prove that your only reason is personal bias ?