Guild Wars 2

hi
i have played necro long ago in pvp and i see that for couple of month the necro come back to the meta compositions

i see in tpvp lots of necro comp with 2 and even 3 necros. its not a high tier fights but low and mid tier.

after playing a bit with both MM necro and cele signet necro i came up with this build

i would like you to criticize it

role :
close/far holder and can dish out on mid when needed good dmg if i have good team support
i notice in med tier mm is not so much viable as signet necro but my dmg was bit low and going zerk is too risky

this is the build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBHRhG2JNiQjNYnNgtNAHO4oWomLxUEF0x4OqWYCEARAA-TJRBABlVGQjnAAAnEAB3fAA

yes i dont use staff but i have excellent lire force abilities and great dmg with an average 2.7k power (with enemy below 50% hp its even can get 2.9k)
i dont have crit dmg and chance as i dont want to be too much squishy (depends on group composition)
my dmg compare to the meta signet build is higher and the sustain is the same.

elite i switch depend on my group composition and support

pros:
2.5-2.7 power
28k hp
2.8k armor
great life force abilities with dagger,axe, spectral abilities
rip boons
nice condi transfer
might stack can be above 15

cons:
lack of stability
no range weapon with staff
no aoe with staff
lack 1 cc with staff

if you are going for more group fight take locust signet for more healing abilities and aoe boons rip.

here is my version with the build i playing condi shatter (boon share)
on 5 min try to put in some harder fights (at the end 1v3 and manage to down 1 ele)
hope you like it

you wont see here high dmg which is so common and no 100-0 burst and no stealth abuse

wow ppl saying condi mesmer are op. finally!

common on tournament pu is not good for condi build.
thus almost every class can steal a point in 1v1 as mesmer will need to use distortion or phase retreat off point (if its small point). objective achieved.

with all the burning out there (my highest stacks on me was 31!!!) versus 2 dd ele and 2 burning guard on point i tried to hold till my team came they covered the whole points with aoe i had to retreat – lol and you say condi mesmer are op while dd ele can go cele and do better condi dmg and sustain and support

phokus.8934:

messiah.1908:

phokus.8934:

We’ll most likely see an ICD added to the trait rather than requiring two illusions. But we have to play test it first to see how it’ll play out.

In its original form, it was insanely overpowered that needed a change.

pls explain why was it OP in the way which combos you could do better , harder, faster
and try to compare them to now

i testing it with 3 friends who play Mesmer from the beginning. at start we said OP but suddenly after comparing the combos with GS, staff, scepter etc we saw and up side and big down side (high risk high reward)

i would love to hear what we have missed.

I’ll try and keep this short and to the point – time constraints on my side.

A general thought process from others seems to be that they want IR to replace DE. But looking at the IR trait, it’s to supplement DE and active clone generation through the use of shatters (pretty simple point and purpose). With IR in its previous version, you’ve essentially had two clones out at any time after the initial clone is generated.

Not only does that improve your shatters, but also your healing and overall confusion from players. That’s not a bad thing, though. From my understanding, that is what this trait is meant to do. The part that becomes seriously overpowered is the use of Alacrity and then you can just roll your shatters and hit with 2 illusions per shatter without actively generating an illusion.

That is huge because now you’re Mind Wrack, Diversion, and Distortion have no illusion down time where you then need to build them up (albeit, rather quickly to produce). It was extremely easy to pump out 3+1 clones in rapid succession and with Alacrity buff on you, your shatters are exponentially improved just by pressing F1-4.

Ultimately I’d rather they place a very small ICD on it rather than the two clone limit.

sry to say still didnt see any different as to now
now you create 1 phantasm ans 1 clone and do GS combo with mw shatter.
at beta you did the same but got 1 clone after mw and 1 phantasm
now if you shatter fast your phantasm wont do its dmg and if you w8 your clone get be killed.
now if you shatter them you get another clone
so now ppl will just take DE and dodge and the result will be the same. 1 clone 1 phantasm than shatter and another dodge so the result as you see is the same
problem wont solved.

the main problem is F5 combo. ppl will use f5 and all shatter even without illusions up so they can do another burst combo as before. again with de the problem wont get solved.

the problem is now with 2 illusion so i must take DE and dodge. so lets nerf DE and F5

just give is 1-2 sec icd will sove the problem as you wont be able to shatter it fast but ppl refuse to learn how to kill mesmer thus they wont kill his illusions.

also what would have happend if you lower it to 1 illusion. you already got 1 phantasm from CP. so if you shatter it you get 1 clone i dont see any problem with it. thus ppl wont have to take DE.

StickerHappy.8052:

2 seconds of burning on Staff is OP, how? IE is now baseline. And we now have chaotic persistence. 5 boons which we can easily get gives you 15% condi duration, + smoldering sigils and Balth? 3.5-4 second burns on AA. Even if its RNG, IE will proc it frequently.

Torch burn? Same reasoning as above, IE is baseline, affects torch. On top of all the condis we can give.

here i think you very wrong. before the patch mesmer without IE could do 1-2 burning stack with staff. with IE he could do if he lucky 2-3 (no food duration. pvp)
now the dmg from 3 stacks was for condi mesmer around 1800 per sec (and it last around 1 sec)
now after burning got nerfed while every other class got stacks buff to their skills/utilities/traits. we got none just cause of IE. so now compare the dmg . again 2-3 stacks which do 900 dmg. 40-50% nerf in dmg while other stay the same.

i would just change the number of stacks from 1 to 2. and not the duration so the dmg can be the same

same with the torch…. (how many time it bounce back…. common)
not to mention what anet did with the burning (engi, ele, guard, warrior…)

phokus.8934:

We’ll most likely see an ICD added to the trait rather than requiring two illusions. But we have to play test it first to see how it’ll play out.

In its original form, it was insanely overpowered that needed a change.

pls explain why was it OP in the way which combos you could do better , harder, faster
and try to compare them to now

i testing it with 3 friends who play Mesmer from the beginning. at start we said OP but suddenly after comparing the combos with GS, staff, scepter etc we saw and up side and big down side (high risk high reward)

i would love to hear what we have missed.

i agree but you need to attend the problem

the combo Anet was referring to is the combo of GS power shatter
they use izerk, mirror to create clone ahd MW to put zerk build almost in 5% hp and this is with 1 clone from mirror.
now consider they would have another clone from shatter they could start with f2 than f1 for more dmg or even f3 for more daze/stun to do 100-0 dmg
so they hurt all other builds by demand 2 clones
but they forgot that mesmer got 1 phantasm out and from mirror its another clone so after shattering izerk will come out again and more clone from shattering so its again 2 clones. the combo will be f2+f1 without f3 or with it as you cant stack daze. so anet failed with its theory dmg and hurst all builds of mesmer (condi and bunker) so all will go with DE and than what… the same problem untill anet will see the community stop QQ or hey will give a shart cd to IR to prevent fast shatter combos. or they (as usual do) give both 2 clones demand and 2 sec icd as double nerf

focus – i dont take it cause if i did i would have take wardens feedback. but restorative illusion is much better thus making the focus only the pull which can mainly interrupt
but try to do that on warrior, ele, guard and thief. very hard with stability and dodges
torch – give blind, cure 2 conditions, bit burning and blast finisher i like to use to create chaos armor so more protection on me . i hardly use it for stealth unless i try to sneak on point and sneak out off point.
signet of illusions – indeed very good one but put you on more solo bunker rather support with null field. it can give you distortion twice but got 1.25 activation so easy to interrupt. with null field again i get more chaos armor and it cleanse 5 conditions and rip 5 boons aoe.
shattered strength – i dont use my build for shatter unless i see my clones gonna be killed or i need health or condi cleanse. i usually have 5 might stacks (more if i take rune of battle) . also sometimes i take illusionary defense so with 2 clones up in average i have 6% more dmg reduction so 39% with protection

i have to say i tried 1v3 on mid and its very hard to hold it compare to other class and builds (tried it against thief, ele/mesmer, warrior). necro with ds sometime can hold better but got less group support. guardian also can most of time hold it better just depends on the situation.
but regarding res, stomp, group support and boons share the mesmer is the winner i think (for now b4 HOT)
stability up time on demand, condi cleanse, chaos armor aoe, heal with shatter, interrupt with f3 and chaos storm, resistance with glamour , 45% res faster (i think it works with scepter), time warp
i dont think guard can support better

regarding interrupt – for me its hard to focus on myself, my group condi and health, and also interrupt. as a mesmer i tend to draw all the fire at the start which is good as i am not dmg while my team can do all the dmg and i try to stay alive

i would take shield over torch but than i wont use condi dmg amulet and drop the illusion line so i take sword/shield and instead of blink 1 well and healing well (hope they wont touch the healing value)

this is the build i testing atm
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW7flsnhC0YZawUNQtGLvG05NCSPMXxMqJaAy5RA-TJRHwAQLDoa/hAXEAAPBAA

i find condition dmg with bunker is better than power as the pressure goes higher the longer the fight is . and with power even though its 1900 still dont do much dmg

the scepter increase attack speed is nice
although i cant pressure with 15 confusion and 10 torment. i can do 5 torment and 6 confusion which is enough to pressure zerk burst build

the condi cleanse with shatter, null field, torch and heal skill every 12 sec are very nice and the amount of protection from chaos armor is good

although i dont have blind i got stability and protection.

regarding interrupt – its not my job to do that i think rather support with cleanse and with boons (i try to be guard)

@tropper – with 2.4k armor is enough to be bunker 1v2 on a point. and temporal enchanter just with time warp and medic feedback. i think null field is a must

from pvp pov
good ele is hard to take
if he pressure too much he can disengage fast heal himself and come back in 3 sec
he can kite alot so even in 1v3 he can kite for 1 min use los area heal and kite again
in 1v1 if he got the point dont bother as he can get fast help so you can outnumbered
if you got the point with all the burning field try to stay out of them and do fast pressure so he will heal and get of the point till you can get help

dont try to lose time in 1v1 unless he is bad ele

regarding which class can take him
necro
condi mes – against good ele .the ele can get help so careful

ele atm are very strong and versatile and can adapt to every scenario of fights with the same build . this is the reason why ppl claim OP

i would make null field something else
the problem as i see it is it doesnt cleanse fast enough and doesnt rip boon fast
the boon can be applied almost by every other profession faster and the condi can reapplied.

thus – the base as i see it it should give resistance for 3 seconds and boons have no effect for 1 sec every tick

i find myself many times die to condition as bunch of them stacking on me so until it get cleanse the burning which got cover by 3 conditions i get down. thus if i had resistance for 3 sec it would helped (no aoe only self resistance)

also the ability to weaken your enemy if they stand inside the field is much better than to rip 1-3 boons which can reapplied faster

temporal enchanter is nice but buff every glamour field thus null field should become stronger

i dont know about you all

warrior now can stack nice fire fields and stacking burns- hybrid build can so some nice dmg
guard with carrion already doing good dmg with burning around him
engi – common 15 stacks of burning
ele – the same too much burning

with 10 burning stacks which does 3.5k dps our condi dmg is really low
with 8 torment and 10 confusion out tick is less than 2k unless the target smashing skill and proc confusion dmg of +1k

every class got burning stacks skill buff while we didnt
staff AA with random remain 1 stacks so we got nerfed compared
torch the same
we must some burning love

now every class must take condi cleanse or you will be handicap

hi guys
havent had the chance to play this in the last beta

what do you think of this build for pvp mainly but can fit also in wvw roaming
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQJApnnvNeNS6JvJRVlHlsrykSYW5SJYssrkFOFhN850tBK0I9ynSA-TJBGwAc2fAwJAoZZABPAAA

pros:
mace – hit 3 foes although the dmg is lower than sword
axe – less energy cost and recharge faster, unblockable skill and nice dmg while able to pull (good for res and stomp)
fury – lots of ways to get fury and enhance it with runes so you crit chance is 74% (50%+20%) which is nice, and give more torment,
condition cleanse – demon with resistance abilities and condition transfer with trait
healing – with siphon its about 350 each attack (mace hit 3 foes) and healing skill it will be 1200 per hit. which can be nice
good teleport skills and pull and displace – so good defense and offence.
good break stun 3 of them with legend and utility

cons:
low armor
low crit dmg
mace does lower dmg than sword
healing skills doesnt buff your hp fast thus you need to use them at the right moment as if your hp will be too low it can be your end
must have good energy management as your cleanse and burst depend on it

MailMail.6534:

edited to add: my roommate wants to know where you got the song from in your video! Also, I was proud of you during that 2v1 at the 2:50 mark!!

thanks

the song is The Gael
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_R7bJahcwc

but it got bit nerfed with IR and AWTEW so less condi cleanse , less dmg reduction with hard to keep 3 illusion up,

i love the signet idea and it was hard to pass blink. but it was my first attempt as bunker who needs to stay on points no matter what so i tried it.
i play with it with my condi shatter build and when my dd ele gives me 10-12 might and i share them back to 3 allies its in most cases win as our dmg is 25 might stacks , protection, fury, regen, quickness ….for 5-10 sec
i will test it inthe second beta and see…

i tried at the beta several bunker builds . none could kill anything unless it stays long enough 1v1.

here is the build i liked the most but got nerfed after the beta. IR and AWTEW which dont remove condi anymore

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAseWncfClqhFoBmfCUrhlej6cDKhQwMAugMqeUX1XF-TJRHwAKLDoa/BAHCABHBAA

with so many condi cleanse even when you stand in trap ranger traps he cant get you.
boon share and so many ethereal combo your chaos armor and protection up time wow
with 3 illusions up constantly you will have another 9% dmg reduction (total of 42%)
you heal skill every 16 sec (alacrity) heals for 7k and shattering when needed also 1.5k
slow ability also negate burst dmg

but again but nerfed

2 things i tested in the last beta

bunker mesmer with wells and glamour fields
and
condi shatter

bunker – i see that wells stop cleansing 2 conditions. this is bad idea as the 2 sec alacrity is hardly much in team fight. also put the bunker is harder spot to support and stand against heavy condi pressure.
i think you should add for the heal well 2 condi cleanse as base when used or every pulse instead of vigor. or bring back the condi cleanse with the alacrity
also the ability to create 3 illusion with 9% dmg reduction was very helpful which now i guess with IR nerf wont be achieved at all.

condi shatter- i really had fun fighting without DE. sure with the right rotation i could shatter faster f1-f3 with average of 2 illusions which make my condi burst more faster. but now i see IR got nerfed so i probably have to play DE to get the same result. which you will see the same complains i think with power builds as well.

i think you should bring down to 1 clone and not 2 to see how ppl handling it . and pls consider group fight and not 1v1. as in group fight its harder to create 2 illusions.
or give IR small cd like 2 sec with no illusion needed so the fast constant burst wont get achieved so easily. above 2 sec this trait can be more rng so harder to play with it.

regarding burning dmg. every other class got buffed with stacks. but we didnt. now also warrior can burn better. i think you need to buff the AA with 2 burning stacks as its random condition and also our torch should do 3 stacks of burning to par with others class which can do 10-15 burning stack in a combo

Anet i would love to see bunker and condo shatter entering into the meta good builds as we lack of it and have only 1 build to play with (power pu)

even now warrior can play condi hybrid with burning and bleeding – common

for condi cleanse you got inspiration line – 2 with heal skill, 1 with every shatter , and null fielld

at the beta i was playing with 2 wells (1 heal) and null field . so i got 6 condi cleanse and null field. trap ranger on the point couldnt get me.

compare it to staff ele and bunker guard. guard got shouts which cleanse 2 condi and F2 so the total of cleanse is the same. ele got better utilities and skills to cleanse

the trick is to use F5 to get doable cleanse abilities now

for bunker mesmer chaos and inspiration lines is must so only chorno line can be good with slow, alacrity and shield is the better choise here

Carighan.6758:

messiah.1908:

5 sec of the guard versus 10 (12) sec with slow effect and chaos armor abilities if blast or confusion if whirl etc…

Actually, 30 seconds on the Guardian (check the cooldowns!), 37,5s if specced, then it also removes conditions and gives fury (IIRC).

The guardian elite shout might not be one for one comparable, but it completely dethrones Time Warp for quickness access and overall power gain. Slow is strong, but not 5s-quickness-every-24s-strong.

i dont agree 5 sec quickness versus 10 sec quickness can turn over the figth.
sure the cd are not the same and probably the guardian need bit longer icd like 50 sec. or lower the time warp icd to 90 sec

Knox.8462:

Group Quickness as well, though Guardians now top us on that too.

5 sec of the guard versus 10 (12) sec with slow effect and chaos armor abilities if blast or confusion if whirl etc…

3 chaos for me so true….
always running to the rescue, and love manipule ppl

Tealots.6095:

Curunen.8729:

I’m still going to maintain that Cry of Frustration should have one torment stack per illusion, base, since the change to MtD.

It seems natural that it was changed with the illusion generation capabilities of Chrono in mind, together with IP – although depending on the end result of IR, it could mean that all three of DE, IR and Cp will become mandatory for shatter heavy condition play.

Makes sense since not being able to move or use any ability for fear of taking extra damage is, you know, frustrating…

maybe but it sad that power shatter can go for inspiration line for some support while condi dmg wont (like with chaos for example)

Iavra.8510:

messiah.1908:

i really dont know how 2 torment stacks were too strong

The thing is, due to the nature of shatters it’s not just 1 torment stack difference, but potentially 4 or even more, depending on how much you shatter.

Also, prepatch there was no Ineptitude, no burn stacking (mesmers don’t do much burning, but staff clones can actually hurt due to that, not to mention the new iMage), Confusion damage could be completely avoided and Scepter #3 didn’t stack as fast as it does now.

as of before 2 stacks of torment again if it didnt was op why now

is it cause of ineptitude which only add about 3 confusion stacks ?! – no
is it cause burning stacks while other classes got stack buff we got nothing . try to get 3 stacks with AA and torch for 3 sec….
is it cause scepter #3 stack bit faster confusion (maybe 1 stack more)…

so lets say we got 4 confusion stacks and lost 6 torment stacks also their duration is not the same … you do the math.

before the patch i could do around 8 confusion and 15 torment and now 8 torment and 15 confusion. and in the furst beta before the nerf i could do 15 torment and 15 confusion (all in average game i mean). finally i though here is condi burst but NO.
in 1v1 ppl still crying. in group fight ppl dont want condi mesmer. while dd ele can do nice 12-15 burning stacks same as guard and engi… you do the math….

Iavra.8510:

I’m split between these two. I think that MtD was too strong at 2 stacks and needed a nerf or at least a GM spot next to Ineptitude/different traitline to not make Illusions/Chaos be the cure-all for condi builds. Chaotic Dampening, on the other hand, feels too weak for someone who hasn’t played staff when it was 5%, so i can’t argue about its former state.

Regarding Chronomancer, i think it feels in a better spot since the announced changes, though i’m still against giving it (or any other “OH weapon only” specialization) a free F5 without any tradeoff.

i really dont know how 2 torment stacks were too strong if before the patch it wasnt. is it just cause of IP alone is was TOO strong where mostly as condi you dont always in your face of your enemy.
it became “too strong” because ppl start to play mtd and anet afraid of it.

with chrono as of today it really wont make any different regarding the condi pressure mesmer can put maybe in a 30 sec fight it could end in 25 sec but condi burst pressure still isnt there yet even with ip

without staff why you wanna take CD and with alacrity it still wont become 20% unless you take 2 ethereal fields

also check other class condi dmg. ranger got bleed and poison buff, thief also poison buff, necro condi buff, guard burning buff
we none – i think torment should get 30%-50% more dmg to a moving target and burning should get another stacks from torch skills and AA from staff

IrisTheCasual.3742:

messiah.1908:

denis.9487:

Imo one thing not mentioned is at what cost to get this utility. We actually have to give and take. Ele guard have an easier time providing this utility while providing dps.

good point which make our utlities useless regarding team support
blink is must and gives nothinh to others
decoy – in some build also must and gives nothing
portal – yeee
null field – hardly used but good when being used
mantra of resolve – nice condi cleanse while ele and guards do it far better
feedback – hardly used

Blink and Portal do give a lot to your group.

sry i was talking pvp not pve. i am clueless regarding pve

what anet had in mind i think is for wvw/gvg back line support with gaurd

not tpvp

denis.9487:

Imo one thing not mentioned is at what cost to get this utility. We actually have to give and take. Ele guard have an easier time providing this utility while providing dps.

good point which make our utlities useless regarding team support
blink is must and gives nothinh to others
decoy – in some build also must and gives nothing
portal – yeee
null field – hardly used but good when being used
mantra of resolve – nice condi cleanse while ele and guards do it far better
feedback – hardly used

boon removal – guy necro ftw .with so many skills that remove boons

guardian also has best utilities on the game

boons, reflect, aoe, cleanse, blocks, cc

also other profession as well thus ppl want the mesmer to have a portal or viel

nice vid
what i have notice that so many ppl afraid from perma slow and i didnt notice any from your AA . mainly due to interrupt for 3 sec and some crit but never more than 5 sec.

also you combos were the same as the meta shatter but shield give more control and support which is nice

do you think overall the chrono need nurf b4 HOT release?

Ross Biddle.2367:

messiah.1908:

with ele its really depends as on paper you should kill them or make them off point
the problem it will take you some time so they might get help and outnumber you
on team fight i just make them flee off points for few sec while they wasted their cleanse

Eh, with two people focusing an ele all it takes is one DPS mes to be Lockdown and the mes will be gone in seconds. A single rupt Mes can do it but a good ele is likely to get by with fractions of health left followed by clutch heals, thus luck becomes a high factor. That’s why the second player is there, it removes the luck factor along with those fractions of HP.

Easy.

and the other ele and guard gonna help him ….

this is why i like the tactic of 2v1 , 2v1 meaning with 4v4 on mid 2 allies targeting 1 enemy and my other 2 target another one . after we see one of them used his heal, utilities 3 of us bursting him and the 4rt continue to pressure the other one. if they ress him 4 focus on my target and he will be down.
but smart ele tend to ly away with teleport out of the battle heal and come back thus if 3 of us leave the point they can capture it

with ele its really depends as on paper you should kill them or make them off point
the problem it will take you some time so they might get help and outnumber you
on team fight i just make them flee off points for few sec while they wasted their cleanse

i have played full team versus full team.
we were – 1 carrion shatter condi, 1 carrion shatter condi boon share , 1 trap ranger, 1 medguard , 1 sustain necro

with 3 condi spec we fought against good comp (2 dd ele, engi, guard, ranger)
the guard died on point cause of the traps, the eles couldnt cleanse so much conditions etc…

i would go with

carrion condi shatter with boon share signet illu/chaos/deul – good against melee
pu power shatter with portal dom/deul/chaos- good for fast burst +1
bunker mesmer chorno/chaos/insp – good at support and on point
power boon share duel/insp/chaos – support and dmg
lockdown chrono/chaos/deul – good against ele /necro ranger etc..

with condi shatter today i can put 18 stacks of confusion on thieves or mesmer.
but they werre bad and didnt expect me to be condi shatter
the good ones use stealth to cleanse

the problem with condi shatter is at the current meta is your group dont know how to handle it as it will require new composition

i hardly died to dd or staff ele but sure the fight took some time 30sec-1 min
the good ones just know how to disengage , heal and come back but then the point in mine. thus if my team wont support me fast i can die eventualy.

you saw in the top tier fights that mesmer isnt really important agasint group who knows how to rotate fast.
you saw how burning guard enter to the meta (yess me and saiyen were the first who tried it long ago before the patch)

conditions and the current meta doesnt go along and even if the buff again MTD i dont think it will enter the meta composition. not to say accourding to the thread here they gonna nerf IR and CP so you cant choose them both. thus making even worse the condi shatter idea for fast burst.
and even if the condi shatter will enter the meta group will just take more aoe cleanse and push the build out

it is very hard to preserve the condition builds. as if you buff them and ppl didnt take cleanse they will die so fast and scream for QQ and nerf. if you nerf the condi build ppl wont play it but hardly anyone scream about it

Iavra.8510:

I think Chrono in general needs only a few fixes:
- Make iReversion and Chronophantasma share a trait tier (either Master or GM, it’s not like that really matters).
- Do something about F1-F4 or F5, so not to be a strict upgrade to base mesmer. What exactly is up to debate.
- Maybe take a look at Alacrity, because as it stands some builds can keep it up nearly permanently and this might be too strong.

so basicaly you hurst the condi and bunker builds as of now we are not viable. and with MTD nerf we need more clones and fast to put some pressure or defense.
sure the power build will need some nerf so just give CP 1 sec more daze.

and if 2 torment stack was so OP why we didnt see anyone playing that in higher lvl?!

Silverkey.2078:

It is OP because
1) you can run with DE also, as well as persistence of memory.
2) Even without: generate 2 phantasms and 1 clone, and you can shatter twice in a row, then mirror image and you have a 3rd shatter. All of this happened in 4s. Since you have F5, you can do that during the rift and still have all your skills available at the end.

If you don’t want to use F5 but have persistence of memory, all your phantasms are already ready to use anyway, just need a signet to reset your 4 shatters.

CP + iRev is not OP for a phantasm build, it is OP for permanent shattering.

i got it but with 2 shatter mesmer can take any zerk down 100-0 unless its evade, blind, dodge, block. so if the mesmer miss the 2 shatter and he used his 3rd (distortion he wont use unless use f5) he will be out of the game for 15 sec or just using weapon skills

i get its strong combo. but i didnt see any power mesmer running MI

AlphatheWhite.9351:

messiah.1908:

indeed this is why it shouldnt be touched or moved. i suggested you can add time to the daze of the phantasm but if you combined them to GM this build will be harder to play with

If it barely helps, as you argued, then it really won’t be harder without it, because it was barely doing anything for you in the first place.

You can’t have it both ways. Either Chronophantasma does provide a significant benefit, or it doesn’t.
If it does, then it might be too powerful offensively combined with IR (as many have argued). If it doesn’t, then its loss won’t really impact the bunker build.
The weaknesses of chronophantasma don’t really change between the two builds, phantasms die just as fast for a bunker as for a zerker or condi-shatter.

Meanwhile, others have already espoused the virtues of Sieze the Moment for stomping and rezzing, which is certainly a benefit for any support build, including bunker.

sry to say all the ppl who claimed it op seem to me they just theory it and didnt had a single team fight
without DE you clone making comes for IR but NEED shatter – for power build they loose dmg as they need to create one with one of their shatter. for bunker build is give 3% dmg reduction as long as it lives. thus as you hardly do dmg ppl will ignore it if you place it right.
with CP on theory you can do burst dmg with phantasm but regular shutter does it better with 1 combo. and taking chorno instead of dom will give you less dmg or instead of dueling less fury so one more phantasm attack which is daze for 1 sec doesnt sound op

also the creation of IR is after the shatter combo MW thus the opening is the same. the problem is after the combo done what is happening. you got 1 clone and 1 phantasm
with DE you dodge to create 1 clone so the problem is with phantasm which can attack you . so as the dmg is bit lower (no dom or duel) give it another 1 sec of daze

bunker needs them to survive longer with 6% dmg reduction or 9% if you put them right far from you.

and if it barely helps as you though i mention why you want it to change for the change cause ppl qq about it .

remember the majority qq about mtd and see where it is today. the majority are ppl who dont want to learn and play PU as it safer and easier

see all the tricks ppl did with F5 and so many qq but almost 90% of them are useless mid fight (4 blinks, 4 portal, 4 feedback etc. leaves you with nothing to fight with)

in 3 days you just cant see if it op or not

tobascodagama.2961:

Agreed with Silverkey. I tried out both Chronophantasm and StM, and StM just supports the bunker style way better. BD+StM makes Distortion stomps and rezzes so good.

agree but i took it for the 9% dmg reduction on top the protection. thus i try to create phantasms and shatter if i see them going to be killed . also to create them far from me

AlphatheWhite.9351:

messiah.1908:

can a mesmer really be bunker

do guard or dd/staff ele can do i better

are there significant support skills which mesmer can brings while other cant and more needed then the others?

my pov

1. dd ele can kite 1v2 with ease and 1v3
2. bunker guard can do 1v2 with ease
3. both cant handle condi long pressure
4. dd ele can do dmg while bunkering
5. dd ele cant contest the point like guard
6. guard can aoe cleanse and heal with boons like the dd
7. the ele and guard dont bring aoe support beside cleanse and heal
8. guard is great resser

so what the mesmer has
1. better hp than guard with cleric
2. well heal aoe 5.3k every 16 sec (alacrity) but shorter radios
3. good cleanse with shatter, heal skill, null field, and wells
4. boon share stability, protection, regen, swiftness, fury, might every 15 sec in average if trait (1 signet and 1 traited) or every 30 sec just with signet
5. resistance if traited
6. 2 time warp if needed of 12 sec while being with resistance
7. can contest the point most of the time (aoe necro and ranger are hard)
8. great resser and stomper with stability, feedback , quickness at need (shield, well, time warp)
9. good cc with shield and staff and f3
10. can handle 1v1 at ease, 1v2 hard, 1v3 harder
11. good dmg mitigation with protection and 3 clones (9%)

and with all of that still seems that guard and ele does it better or it just i am new to the bunkering idea with the mesmer
if IR and CP will be both in GM it would nerf the bunker much as you cant create enough clones to give you dmg reducation

You spent a lot of time in the other thread arguing that CP doesn’t help your illusions stay up much at all. A phant’s ability to survive shattering doesn’t protect it from cleaves any more for a bunker than it does for a power mes.

indeed this is why it shouldnt be touched or moved. i suggested you can add time to the daze of the phantasm but if you combined them to GM this build will be harder to play with

with carrion which is my basic amulet now i can do 1v1 and some 1v2
i want to create a build which can replace the bunker guard mainly and maybe the ele with the op support abilities

with carrion i cant versus power well necro aoe or burning guard or trap ranger
with cleric or settler i can

but put it together will negate the bunker mesmer to have 2 illusion up in average
if i take IR i need to shatter to create 1 , if i take CP i need to shatter before they killed and w8 for cd

so as you can see with 10 sec i will be with no illusion up so less heal from shatter, less dmg reduction from each clone

just put cd on the phantasm attack trait

can a mesmer really be bunker

do guard or dd/staff ele can do i better

are there significant support skills which mesmer can brings while other cant and more needed then the others?

my pov

1. dd ele can kite 1v2 with ease and 1v3
2. bunker guard can do 1v2 with ease
3. both cant handle condi long pressure
4. dd ele can do dmg while bunkering
5. dd ele cant contest the point like guard
6. guard can aoe cleanse and heal with boons like the dd
7. the ele and guard dont bring aoe support beside cleanse and heal
8. guard is great resser

so what the mesmer has
1. better hp than guard with cleric
2. well heal aoe 5.3k every 16 sec (alacrity) but shorter radios
3. good cleanse with shatter, heal skill, null field, and wells
4. boon share stability, protection, regen, swiftness, fury, might every 15 sec in average if trait (1 signet and 1 traited) or every 30 sec just with signet
5. resistance if traited
6. 2 time warp if needed of 12 sec while being with resistance
7. can contest the point most of the time (aoe necro and ranger are hard)
8. great resser and stomper with stability, feedback , quickness at need (shield, well, time warp)
9. good cc with shield and staff and f3
10. can handle 1v1 at ease, 1v2 hard, 1v3 harder
11. good dmg mitigation with protection and 3 clones (9%)

and with all of that still seems that guard and ele does it better or it just i am new to the bunkering idea with the mesmer
if IR and CP will be both in GM it would nerf the bunker much as you cant create enough clones to give you dmg reducation

the target you choose get the hit not the target who hits you

that at least what i have notice in 1v3

AlphatheWhite.9351:

messiah.1908:

i dont think CP ad IR are too strong

pu power mesmer is still better than that together

if ppl dont attack your phantasms its their fault

the ability to play shatter without DE this is what important

so put them in GM together will force ppl to play regular shatter and not phantasm shatter

also consider shield has big cd thus alacrity is handy with more illusion up thus if i take CP i will have only 1 illusion to shatter twice and w8 for around 15 sec for its cd while having nothing around me thus i am easy target which will be force to take DE

having IR will result in the same manner i will have 1 illusions up and after shatter only 1 clone so i be force to take DE again

also it will hurts the bunker concept as you need full illusion around you the negate dmg and give more alacrity for your skills.

IR +CP will result in one phantasm you summon and shatter and another phantasm and clone up and with gs mirror another clone

with de you get the same result just 2 clones and 1 phantasm

so the big problem here is the phantasm dmg

thus the solution could be prolong the phantasm delay or nurf its dmg and give it slow or alacrity ability for 2 sec. but i see no problem with that

1. That’s an awfully pessimistic phantasm count. Every weapon set can produce at least 2 phants at a time.
2. Persistence of Memory is one of the most common picks with the setup. 2 Phants + shatter = 4s off phant cooldown, putting iDuelist/iZerker down to 12s left, and iSwordsman down to 8s left. If you managed to get a clone off (easypeasy), you’ll also get 4 seconds of alacrity, for 2.66 more seconds off each, taking us down to 9.36s and 5.36s, respectively. One more shatter takes 4s more off each, dropping them to 5.36s and 1.36s, assuming no time has passed. Of course, since you waited out the 1s daze and the .5ish seconds for the phants to actually attack again (longer if using iDuelists), that puts iZerker at 3.86s left, iDuelist at 2.36s left, and iSwordsman off cooldown already. That’s without accounting for the second round of alacrity, which is either 3s or 4s, giving 2s or 2.66s of cooldown reduction, depending if you managed to get another clone out (not too hard, you’ve still got one of your clone weapon skills off cooldown). That means iZerker will come off cooldown 2.33 seconds from now, iDuelist 1.42 seconds from now, and iSwordsman is obviously still already on cooldown.
iSwordsman has a 1s cooldown, so you’ll have to wait a whole 1.33 seconds for izerker and .42 seconds for iSwordsman, maybe time enough to get another attack in.

If you have IR at the same time, you don’t even have to worry about clone generation on the second shatter, or the third, or the fourth, because you always have 2 phants up, and a clone from your last shatter.

I’m open to being convinced that it’s not over-powerful, but you’re not making the case very well by dramatically understating the numbers.

put it on video and i believe it
its theory golem attack
now take into account cleaves , aoe , pressured by enemy and then check your cd and skill activation

also even if its correct you stated why its phantasm build with shatter and not just shatter build with chrono trait.

on reality if you proc your phantasm on the point they will die fast versus ele, engi, guard, warrior etc…
thus you need to proc them in range

i tested it in the duels. power shatter build did more burst dmg than with chrono. there is a delay with attacks of the phantasms , reach to the target to shatter and many problem which prevent the to proc from CP.
in average 1 phantasm is up and 1 clone from IR

all i say w8 for the patch to come out and dont nerf things like they did with MTD thus condi builds didnt enter the pvp arena

also didnt get you math. you proc 2 phantasm and 1 clone . if you got gs so 1 phantasm and 1 clone. if you got sword/p than 1 phantasm and 1 clone. if you swap weapon you lost dmg from gs skills . if you do the combo of the gs and than swap its about 4-5 sec till you swap to create your next phantasm. thus in this time your phantasm is dead or not attacking.
than you assuming the enemy see i zerk and iduelist and do nothing and w8 for them to attack again and than shatter…
assume that and you got 2 more up with a clone . but than you assuming no time has pass so you assume to shatter fast before they attack thus you using them as clone factory like the regular power build with 1 phantasm and 2 clone (1 dodge and 1 skill)

same result as i stated.

but if you so worry put icd on PoM trait of 8 sec than you have to w8 before you shatter so the BIG cd wont happens as you stated.

i dont think CP ad IR are too strong

pu power mesmer is still better than that together

if ppl dont attack your phantasms its their fault

the ability to play shatter without DE this is what important

so put them in GM together will force ppl to play regular shatter and not phantasm shatter

also consider shield has big cd thus alacrity is handy with more illusion up thus if i take CP i will have only 1 illusion to shatter twice and w8 for around 15 sec for its cd while having nothing around me thus i am easy target which will be force to take DE

having IR will result in the same manner i will have 1 illusions up and after shatter only 1 clone so i be force to take DE again

also it will hurts the bunker concept as you need full illusion around you the negate dmg and give more alacrity for your skills.

IR +CP will result in one phantasm you summon and shatter and another phantasm and clone up and with gs mirror another clone

with de you get the same result just 2 clones and 1 phantasm

so the big problem here is the phantasm dmg

thus the solution could be prolong the phantasm delay or nurf its dmg and give it slow or alacrity ability for 2 sec. but i see no problem with that

i wonder why ppl told on other threads that scepter block for the torment proc is so missable with its animation as even below average player will just stop hitting and now ppl say with the shield its so easy to pop 2 phantasms

isnt the big purple is a huge sign of stop hitting me but the scepter raise hand isnt?!
sry guys stop qq and l2p

shield phantasm dont do much dmg rather slow if it hits like other phantasm so stop yelling for nerf. if you blind to hit it the punish will be maybe 5 sec of slow

ok all saw the nice combo tricks

pvp – why you want 52 sec stealth?, or 4 portal? or 16 sec group stealth (1 sr from thief can do that or 1 sb+pb thief can do that almost), why you want 4 blinks?, why you want 4 feedback or why you need to use all your utlities at the same time leaving you so vulnerable or with nothing to bring to your group

so yes nice tricks like with staff phase retreat spot (hardly 50% use them all)

i think the problem of ppl commenting is they look from the dueling glasses only.
yes in dueling 2 shield phantasms are strong but in team fight they arent and probably will be killed in 1 sec from cleave or aoe

chrono trait line seem like a good line to work with phantasm builds while preserve the shattering idea

F5 – too tricky to use (at least for me and some few friends) mainly use for long cd utilities recharge like time warp, heal skill (well mainly as its aoe heal)
i would say the opposite – prolong its base duration and even more with each clone to the total of 12 sec with 3 clones up. but the shatter will only recharge your utilities and shatter and not weapon skills. it will enable more tactic game
power shatter will use it for disengage or distortion
condi shatter will use it for burst combo with shattering and disengage and utilities
bunker shatter will use it mainly for utilities

shield

1. is nice but bugged as you mention
2. i like the 2 phantasms with 2 block atm but would love if we got 2 sec block. but already with sword we got distortion, f4 .
   also hardly i get alacrity with the bounce unless its 1v1 so maybe change the hit for aoe slow and alacrity for 3 sec 240 radios . thus smart ppl will try not to stand near it or kill it fast from range .

well
eternity well scale nice with healing power to 5k healing aoe. but the radios is small and ppl dont see it on the ground with all the aoe flying around so i need to shout stand on me of i am with comm. so make it larger and visible (empower is 600 r)

i use only action well as other just so unusable atm .
the dmg one easy to dodge with 3 sec duration . thus make it longer like 6 sec (like necros)
recall need to pule both at the same time and for 6 sec
gravity i try to use for res or prevent res other than that easy to avoid

traits
pls dont touch chronophantasma and illusionary reversion. with no DE on average you will have 1.5 illusion up as they will die before shattering or you have cd on your phantasm, WHILE with DE 3 up. so maybe just delay the attack on chronophantasma 0.5 sec more or they can pop up close to the mesmer and not the enemy (better idea as it can revealed the pu mesmer location)

Ross Biddle.2367:

messiah.1908:

if ppl still shouting perma slow so common

chrono if ppl still didnt get it is for group fight and not dueling

it can support good the party . can be effective bunker (but probable not as guard or dd ele)

the basic power build are still meta and better without chorno

maybe for condition chorno can be better with lots fo pressure but simple power pu or power block can be better wihtout chrono

i think the support boon share with wells and glamour field can be good too

I’ve barely noticed slow except during stomps. It makes stomps take FOREVER

exactly this is why i save shield #5 and well and if needed time warp for fast res while slow stomp

for me the problem with cs are
1. short duration
2. easy to kill the rift but atm ppl just dont, wierd
3. hard to execute mid fight – create 3 clones without dying
4. works on average with 1-2 skills top
5. why to use it when you hp low – if you use F5 and heal you will get back to the lower health and need to use heal again. but the main difference it will give you few sec with high hp so you will need to disengage or hope that your enemy wont stand close to the rift

so many ppl run after me trying to kill me while suddenly i disappear behind them and blink away again

so my suggestions are:

1. longer duration the more clone you got. base 6 sec and each clone add 2 sec so total 12 sec (basically the base is 8 – 6+2 ip). so to put the rift in hide and even with 6 sec you can do something like blink to the fight put time warp/null/feedback/wells and teleport back

2. will recharge utilities and shatters skills only – for the ppl who afraid from izerk spamming etc… and shatter with no clones is weak so probably for distortion only
i dont see ppl use it just for recharge phantasms with 90 sec cd
and using utilities spamming is not really gonna help. so 12 sec maybe 2 utilities will

3. put the rift larger so ppl can see it and with 12 sec up will have the chance to kill it so more mind game to the table

i want more tactic game with F5 and not just spamming like with guardian the elite who recharge virtues. just spamm them before it ends even if you dont need it (but with guard they give something useful while shatter hardly with no clones or just one)