Guild Wars 2

Relentliss.2170:

The culling fix made culling worse for lots of players. It was removed for a reason.

When they removed it,im having seriously terrible culling issues to the point its unplayable,as last night.I am unable to enjoy wvwvw as of now,and prob won’t do it untill this is fixed again.

Tarn.1374:

I like this idea too.

Personally I think Anet should change it so any class can wear any form of armor. They have the opportunity to balance it by having the various types effect endurance and the like in different ways.

Stupid idea sorry to say….thiefs running around in heavy armor ? blegh,Aion 6.0

Khisanth.2948:

Caedmon.6798:

Khisanth.2948:

What exactly is the point of filing a bug for something that is already being worked on?

They made a change to the culling system,it Obviously is Not working.They need to know this…wasnt that hard to understand right ?

The one they are actually working on hasn’t been deployed yet. -_-

They must have made some change because ive Never had it this bad,not even when i firstr started gw2 months ago.The culling issue is getting worse and worse,now it even starts to affact just a few people near me.Its just getting terrible to the point that its no use to continue playing at all.

Veeber.3192:

All servers do this. I see many many times people from Far Shiverpeaks and Dzagonur doing this to various areas (bay for example) along with their map hacks (spawning under SM floor that hasn’t been attacked in 7 hours) and 10 minute buffs on revive.

Stop trying to turn this the other way around,its not FS doing this its UW that was doing this,Theres a evene a vid of them exploiting.Now Dzagonur also likes to exploit.Great times at wvwvwv !!!!!!!!!!!! :/ Uw commander was even there,now hes just boosting about what he did aswell….Lemme guess anet doesnt know jackkitten and he continues playing right ?? ahh good…….

Khisanth.2948:

What exactly is the point of filing a bug for something that is already being worked on?

They made a change to the culling system,it Obviously is Not working.They need to know this…wasnt that hard to understand right ?

Monster Hunter ?

Its ruining wvwvw completely and if this doesn’t get fixed somehow soon,it will be a good reason for a very long break from gw2 for me.its the only thing i enjoy doing in gw2..and since recently it has become worse and worse and today after the reset…its terrible,i just stopped playing actually.It seems that people are aware of this and can abuse it Easily by stacking up with 30 – 40+ people, <—— this group will be invisible untill they killed every last one of you,and when your laying death on the ground they pop up.

All in all im still having a blast in wvwvw,but tbh im getting Really Really tired of the culling issue wich seems to be getting worse and worse lately.Plus the thiefs issue, offc,but yeah i do hope they come with some new content for wvwv just to make it more interesting,plus maybe some better rewards or something,always nice to play for something other then pure kills since most of us dont have any use of badges besides buying some siege offc.

dani.1956:

Ehj dont know if you will read my post , been 6 days until you started the thread but try to give mesmers a chance ! Lovely at WvW , almoust no deaths and lets say medium to solid at pve too ! Mesmers atm is top class compared to warriors !

Because you always have a way to escape,tele,illusions,invis,+ rune set with mist its geting insanely easy..You can abuse this to Hell being unable to be Ever caught if done correctly.Imo big flaw design like thiefs but whatever.

Lol give me some gold please i want a legendary but not enough gold !

Moa mounts…you people ,what the hell,do you want to turn this into yet Another Generic kitten Mmo with birds as mounts and pink elephants to ride on ? please …we do not need mounts in this game,every topic about mounts get either lost in space or closed anyways.

Zeldain.5710:

Rhysati.4932:

I can’t really speak for your server, but Tarnished Coast is jam-packed with people. Try jumping to one of the busier servers.

Typical denial response. The game is horridly empty in every non-starter and non-end game zone… on EVERT server. And the game design depends on people. It’s failing on all fronts.

On every server ? wow nostradamus,have you jumped to all servers to go and see ( On All maps btw ) for you to be makign such a statement ? No ? Ohh then you know you’re full of it right ?

Yeah please,for instance when buying the Staghelmet that costs 20g,the front looks nice,but take a look at the back and its looks Horrible,you can see the baldness coming under his helm and the Fatlayers on his neck popping out.It justr looks really ugly and its the main reason im not even considering buying the stag helmet at all,itook longer hair for a reason ! Please show us our hair under our helmets already…

Tanith.5264:

Don’t announce it, don’t promote it…just create another dragon champion to suddenly appear on behalf of the ED’s. Many players, myself included, love the dragon fights simply for the thrill of the battle.

To date Primordus and the “Deep Sea Dragon” don’t have champions to harass the players. How fun would it be if players were doing hearts, gathering resources, and all that good stuff just to have yet another furious dragon champion suddenly descend on them?

After all, both Zhaitan and his general Tequatl have been given a sound drubbing by players at this point, it’s time for another scaly menace to arise…

Tequatl..i remember soloing him one boring long night lol.I dont do any dragons anymore btw,chest is always blue green,and the mops stop dropping.After having it done a few times i know what the fight’s like,and not getting a reward anymore is not as satisfactory as it was before,now its just boring thanks to the changes they made.

Shadow.3475:

Officers off the Guild that owns Tower, Keep, Supply camp should be able to delete Siege weapons built in and around the Tower, Keep, Supply camp with going to the Lord and get a blueprint to delete and then 50% off the mats used to built it end up in a pile and the pile goes away in 60-120sec if no one pic it up.

Same officers off the Guild that owns Tower, Keep, Supply camp should be able to stop a upgrade that is running on the Tower, Keep, Supply camp and 50-100% off the coin go back to the one that started the upgrade, the mats is used so you don’t get that back, should be some limit when you can stop it, something like up to 25% done you can stop it.

As my suggestion that it should be worth more to defend and take a Tower, Keep, Supply camp when its upgrade you should also be able to have more defense (siege weapons), take Tower as example, not upgraded at all = 8, first step = 10, 2 step = 12 3step = 15.

Wait…so guild tower owners can pick up and destroy My sieges ? thats a terrible idea actually. Stop an upgrade ?? So they have the means to totally halt the advancement of one tower + destroy all its sieges so the enemy has clear way ? What v you been smoking ?

I doubt it ,but still..Keyloggers man,your account will go Poof.

Olba.5376:

One reason behind the combat mode being longer is to avoid people cheesing content. Make it any faster and you will end up with a situation where people will just run off to get out of combat mode and regenerate to full health and return.

Also, Ranger/Thief/Elementalist/Necromancer all get a utility that gives +25% movement speed. Warriors can get +10% from a trait. And most classes have access to Swiftness, which gives +33%.

yes i think that’s the main prob,my main is a warrior and playing as one seems that no one is affected by it but me,everyone is outrunning me in combat while i have usually a constant swiftness on me,when that wears out…i barely go forward at all,it just seems way to sluggish at times.

@karaad,the prob is not how i go into combat mode,i know to use switness stability etc,its that the combat speed mode feels to slow at times.And like i said when you have a 1vs1 in wvwvw and other enemies pop up Not in combat mode yet..you know you have a hell of a time trying to escape that ( as a warrior mainly speaking )when you know how long it takes to regenerate out of the combat mode,if you’re still not getting hit that is.While those not in combat mode are not affected by it and can easily run straight past you while they were a mile away.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Why are we raising our hand when leveling up over level 80!? Its a major annoyance when you’re rezing someone in high level fractals and get self rupted… Disable this crap after you’ve reached level 80!

Hell no,this has led to some awesome moments,when defending a tower and surrounded by enemys i suddenly leveld up and All enemys surrounding me got pushed off a ledge outside the tower because of the knockback effect.

I think combat speed needs to be looked at, i mean im running like a train,suddenly im in combat mode and going the same speed as my grandpa ? I dont understand why it also looks like some players are not even affected by this,they just run straight past me while im slugging behind them in combat mode…Also alot of times it takes too long to go back to “neutral” state since im Long gone from any form of combat at all,yet my hp does not want to regain,and my speed stays sluggish and im unable to change any weapons or utilities.Also,combat speed is unbalanced most of the times,ex, im fighing someone in wvwvw 1vs1 i see 3 other enemys coming towards me,i try to run ( while in combat speed ) The 3 coming towards me are not in combat speed thus about 50% faster then i am,It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what will happen next.Can the comnbat speed mode looked at maybe ? Or the time it takes to regenerate ? The speed to be adjusted or to be removed Completely ?

*Combat speed mode not affected by all it seems
*Unable to run when fighting an enemy and others join the party not yet in combat speed
*Unable to escape from classes that tele,go invis with speed buffs
*Regen takes to long at times,have to move away to far from the battle at times to be able to change a weapon,utility,regain speed , hp.

All in all…it would be great if the combat speed mode would just be removed all together,i do not see the point of it since i think i read somewhere stating anet said that Everyone will have the same speed buffs anyway,so whats the point of it ? Everything feels so extremely sluggish with it.

First of all,you and your brother need to learn why this game is called Guild Wars,second of all…Im positive arena is already working on this before you even thought of it.

That jp needs to go,honestly…alot of people camp it 24/7 without doing jackkitten for the World their in,other then being a pain for others and just camp that kitten puzzle all day long trying to make a quick buck making portals for people…seriously remove this crap from wvwvw please !

Yamiino.1827:

The problem with the thief class is that there is no problem with it, the thiefs that 1-3 hits kill you go pretty much for crit damage, precision and power, aka, no life, no defense, they can go down as fast too, just most people like to QQ before testing other builds or improving their gaming leading to frustration = quit game.

I think you dont seem to understand what the problem is at all.

Hm Great post actually,agree with most,espec the part about thieves.Also know some people that are taking a break untill things get a bit more balanced in that department.I know how to counter most thieves,some i cant kill ,some keep running away and are invis 99% of the time,so i never even see them,i honestly do not like fighting thieves aswell,simply because you said it,i dont like to fight someone i cannot see,its not fun and not fair.I refuse to go into a cat and mouse game though,if i try to kill them and they pop invis and pop out in the distance to try again,ill turn around and go do something else,ill try to actually Ignore most thieves for now,since they all play the Exact same way anyways.

There is no thief who plays different then the thief you saw 10 minutes ago,they all have the exact same build,weapons and ""style" of play,its like facing the same enemy over and over again,in all other classes i see variation,thieves,not at all.Solution maybe,reduce speed of thieves while being invis by 30 – 50 % ,reduce time they are able to go invisi,because they can be invis 99% and pop out for a sec to go back in stealth again, No class should be able to be invis 99% of the time,its a horrible idea.

@Kolly..could say the same about you,You just make a reply to say That ? Ohh now i see,you’re a thief!

Jinks.2057:

Caedmon.6798:

Jinks.2057:

Bunzy.8674:

In large group fights thieves tend to struggle quite a bit, so if you run smaller groups and often take on larger groups there is one thing a thief excels at:

stomping people
ressing people

that should be the thiefs sole purpose.

A good thief will be finishing targets off or in the middle of their group sowing confusion and panick.

My guild was running 5 and we came across a small zerg of players (15-20) I was the only thief and basically I was seperate from the rest in the enemies back lines.

It works wonders since people tend to panick when they start dying on both sides.

Eventually tho the zerg doubled or more and wiped us…..we dropped a kitten ton of em and I was the only one to live

Thanks for the great detail in explaining whats wrong with thieves,No one should be able to do this.Killing of many enemy’s while being invisi is the most unfair thing ive seen in an mmo yet,Whats the point in giving all the players all these downed skills when they are utterly worthless when a thief finish you off invisi anyways ? its close to “hacking” ( dont take it that serious ) imo.Devs gave thiefs a legal godmode hack,lol

You need to re-read the post. No where did I say I was killing people from 100% to 0% and then promptly stomping them.

No what I said was finish people off (this means they were either downed or very injured when engaged). That is what the thief was developed to do.

If your talking about a stealth stomp than you need to ditch your class envy b/c ele’s can mist stomp, Wars can invuln stomp, etc. Those are tons more effective than stealth stomping.

Wars can invul stomp ? Explain please,because you need stability + endure pain for that,wich you have already popped up in battle and their most likely still in cd to be used when the player is down,irrelevant and thoughtless comment.Thieves stealth finishers are OP,done deal,you can disagree all you want but your just lying to yourself.

Jinks.2057:

Caedmon.6798:

Why do you bother ? thiefs are cowards,its easy.They try to kill you,they cant,they pop invis again and are appearing miles away in the distant again hoping you will chase them,but i wont..they are just not worthy of my time and i happily move on without having to worry about that little rat.

So you didnt die….and create a scenario where you can’t die

wtf is the problem then?

L2r please,im merely responding to the op being unable to catch them and it becoming a cat and mouse game,my response is “Dont bother chasing them if they play like this”.That wasn’t so hard to understand now is it ? Im not talking about the Thief being OP issue here,thats another story.

Well if you contact support being this informative,i would understand there is no solution or response.GG brisco.

its not that simple,thieves are invis 99% of the time,+ the rendering issue when they are able to attack you while being invis,nor can they be targetted in this time,they backstab you hs hs hs ,50% lost,invis,then your hitting 1 and aoe the kitten out of my surroundings,he pops up in the distant,goes invis again,for you know it your hit again,its rinse and repeat and many classes cannot do a thing about it,something you would understand if you play other classes.And im getting tired of people trying to defend thieves while there is obviosuly something wrong with them,and the devs also know this,and hundreds of people also know this,people that play thieves,als know and confirm this.

Why do you bother ? thiefs are cowards,its easy.They try to kill you,they cant,they pop invis again and are appearing miles away in the distant again hoping you will chase them,but i wont..they are just not worthy of my time and i happily move on without having to worry about that little rat.

Yeah a slider to decrease the intensity would be great,as a melee its most of the time a light show,being unable to see what it is im hitting.

Zloprcek.2493:

Hey, its pretty long time and this annoying bug is still up.
How is it possible, that i hit target as Obstructed when i damage him on flat space?

Yeah great thing is when they DO hit you,but your hits are constantly obstructed or missed…yeah,great times…Also when standing on a tower in wvwvw defending shooting a Long Bow and when standing just on the tower is not sufficient enough for my bow to be able to go over the small edge…No,i have to stand on the fricking ledge like im putting a big target over my head saying HEEEY LOOK AT MEEEE im a free shot pull me off and kill me! I think we should be able to stay infront of the ledge and our bows should be able to go Over them…

Just posted this a s a comment in the wvwvw section but rather put up as a topic actually,hope the devs look into this.

There is a hell of a lot of delay with using skills ( everything with a cast time basically ) when people are either attacking the lord roon in sm,or defending. The lord room lag is Devastating for everyone trying to defend it ( attackers also offc but they dont have much to lose at that time ). Being unable to heal myself,pop stability,hell..use Any of my skills with a cast time longer then 1 sec is unable to be used.Its killing me and loads of others players unnecessarily at that time because your running around being worthless spamming 1 in the hopes you hit someone.It happens only in the SM lord room,if were at another spot with just as many people facing each other there is no delay in using skills whatsoever.And yes it affects everyone,it’s not just me

FS server btw.

Edit: also other minior issue,when defending a tower in Wvwvw,and when standing infront of that Small edge ontop of the tower wall and shooting a bow,why are my arrows Unable to go over that small edge ? Why do i have to stand on that small edge and put a mark above my head screaming KILLL MEEEE im free for the taking !!!. I think people should be able to stand on the tower wall Behind the edge behind able to hit people below as far as your bow reaches offcourse..hope you understand what i mean,ts pretty annoying at times and tbh doesn’t make any sense when they do hit me from below when i;m standing behind that edge.

Atlanis.1473:

Hi all,

unfortunatly there are cheaters on all servers, we all know it and i at least report findings no matter what server.

FS has had quite big numbers the past 2 days, we struggle and we fight back.

Good fights all over, well see how it goes when the holidays are past us.

Thanks for all the Badges :P

Good matchup so keep it civil.

Nothing is deceided yet.

a small P.s. I wish Anet would do something about those massive lags whenever you go to SM Lord room, prolly to many Cramped in small space, fighting is virtually impossible other then Autoattack, skills just don’t trigger.

Keva

For god’s sake yes…The lord room lag is Devastating for everyone trying to defend it ( attackers also offc but they dont have much to lose at that time ). Being unable to heal myself,pop stability,hell..use Any of my skills with a cast time longer then 1 sec,is unable to be used.Its killing me at that time because your running around being worthless spamming 1 in the hopes you hit someone.It happens ONLY in the SM lord room,if were at another spot with just as many people facing each other there is no delay in using skills whatsoever.

Jinks.2057:

Bunzy.8674:

In large group fights thieves tend to struggle quite a bit, so if you run smaller groups and often take on larger groups there is one thing a thief excels at:

stomping people
ressing people

that should be the thiefs sole purpose.

A good thief will be finishing targets off or in the middle of their group sowing confusion and panick.

My guild was running 5 and we came across a small zerg of players (15-20) I was the only thief and basically I was seperate from the rest in the enemies back lines.

It works wonders since people tend to panick when they start dying on both sides.

Eventually tho the zerg doubled or more and wiped us…..we dropped a kitten ton of em and I was the only one to live

Thanks for the great detail in explaining whats wrong with thieves,No one should be able to do this.Killing of many enemy’s while being invisi is the most unfair thing ive seen in an mmo yet,Whats the point in giving all the players all these downed skills when they are utterly worthless when a thief finish you off invisi anyways ? its close to “hacking” ( dont take it that serious ) imo.Devs gave thiefs a legal godmode hack,lol

Cornholio.1567:

So you just got into WvW and the first thing you do is complain.. GG

Thiefs are hunters that stalk their prey.. If you dont wanna die stay with the group.. Or we will kill you

Here is the typical thief mentality,now you know what kind of players use them,Enjoy killing them all ! I know i do
People saying its a l2p issue because he just started wvwvw,please use that little peanut in your head.Also might look around at the forum where hundreds of others complain about the exact same issue wich has no need to be repeated yet again,players who have been in wvwvw from the start all know it.

FuriousPop.2789:

not sure if there is already a topic like this – couldn’t find one.

OK so we all know how much is needed and how to farm it and the never ending countless hours we have to put in.

however i would like to ask just a simple thing,

Can you make karma deposited/withdraw from personal bank? so that way i can share it between my own characters on my one account!?

I don’t want it tradeable on the TP – thats just going to cause Chaos. I just want to be able to share it between my own characters.

Reason i ask is because most items bought by karma are soulbound on acquire forcing me to farm karma yet again for my next character….

However i feel i can farm alot better on a specific class/geared correctly that is not my main. – and no i dont want to play that specific class all the time but would like to spread out the wealth and time/effort put into 1 character across all of them which can already be done via gold/gems but sadly not karma.

Anyone, For or Against?

Well,i dont know,you also have to farm XP for your char yet again, and gear,yet again,do all quest yet again,so i dont know why you should have free karma though.Doesnt make sense when you have to gain everything again,but karma will be free for the taking.

I dont think mmuch of this is guild spamming…….but to make it clear once and for all. What some of you are doing is wrong,you are not declining the invite,rather you are Ignoring it,so everytime you log in,the invite still pops up.Thats is not the guild spamming,it is you ignoreing,instead of declining.

“Thirdly. Progress. Alot of ppl feel they are not progressing if playing SPVP. I agree with the max level/equal gear philosophy of Spvp. IN fact i think its great.
HOWEVER. Alot of ppl feel since they earn more or less nothing to progress that they would rather be doing wvw or Pve.”

This exactly,i have absolutely Nothing to look forward to when doing spvp but ending up at top charts..and getting a random chest whenever ive played about a few hundred matches containing worthless kittens i dont want to feed any milk…you know ?

I played it constantly when gw2 was first released,ranked up to about 22 pretty fast,then stopped.Now im 24 i guess but im not bothering anymore,it just doesn’t interest me at all,no fulfilling rewards on top of it,it feels and is very repetitive and becomes a bore after 2 or so rounds already.The pvp in wvwv is a diff story,i like it alot,even the big zerging,just wish the rendering issue would be resolved already,its a huge pain at times.

Terra Dactyl.2047:

If by “Bearform” You mean getting hammered, killing armies worth of charr/destroyers/monsters in general with a group of 1-5 (with the player character and their party) while they turned into bears every 5 mins or so, then bragging about it to everyone they knew (and everyone they didn’t know) then you’d be right. Norn have always been different from humans in more ways than just “oh they turn into bears and they’re really tall.”

Back to the skill itself… 4 minutes is not an unreasonable cooldown for an elite skill that buffs the hell out of your hp, toughness, and power, which grants a ridiculously long range sprint (it’s basically back to back “ride the lightning”s), and is usable in WvW. It’s pretty much THE best zerg escape or chasing skill (has a knockback when you reach your target if you’re chasing, and it generally runs PAST them and actually knocks them backwards) except for maybe snow leopard form (less hp, but has stealth and the ridiculous sprint is on a 10 second CD instead of 15.)

Slightly lower cooldown in PvE might be ok. Maybe 3 minutes instead of 4 to bring it in line with most of the other elite skills, in WvW it needs a longer CD if anything, not a shorter one.

The skills are useless,good luck running into that zerg being able to hit some people maybe knock some down and then get killed.Honestly i have more luck surviving something like that when i pop stabitlity and endure pain,running into it while transformed is a suicide run,and unless you have 10 people doing it at the same time,it’s not worth it.

I still wont use it even if they lowered the cooldowns to 30 sec,those transforms are utterly useless skills.Imo just remove them,who uses them ? unless youre not just started the game or just acquired them to test them out or show off,other then it being practical..wich it is not,in No situation did i ever found that using a transform would be a wise thing to do.When i first got them i thought it was gonna be so cool using this in pvp or wvwvw,BIGGG dissapointment

There isn’t a single shield i can wear on my norn that doesn’t clip through my back – shoulders,its terrible,one major reason im not using it.

Disagree ,but atleast use the Search function,we have topics about mounts,no need to keep creating another every single day. And what,Via Gem store ? Thats actually the worst idea ive read about mounts yet.Did you even considered Wvwvww,did you ever play it ? What about mounts there,where not everyone will have one but only peopl;e using Gem store ? Honestly,you didn’t even think this through,.but just shout MOUNTSSSS I WAANTTT THEMMMM,in a slightly different context offc.

Pk is one of the worst things you can have in an mmo.And it again would seperate alot of players,horrible idea.

I dont support mounts in this game,and sorry to say but..we have already loads of threads about this,please use those instead of starting yet another.

Gun metal perhaps ?

Koldhara.9805:

I did not see a newbie forum, so I decided I should make my introduction here. My game is downloading as I type this so I have been familiarizing myself with the game. I would definitely welcome any suggestions and tips you may have to offer me.

Many thanks everyone.

Play and level with someone,make some friends and youl have a great time leveling up and learning while doing so.

psy.5437:

I would like to know if ANet plan to add more uses for karma in to the game or even karma specific fractal items. I do not know about other players but having even more karma is useless to me and that as a reward is zero incentive for me to do a lower level dificulty. In the example the level 53 player would receive scaled down rewards (no incentive) and karma (again no point).

Indeed,having 500K + karma atm,and No idea what to do with it.I do like the changes they are making to fractals though.

Samaul.6073:

For the time being, there are no dwarfs to toss in GW2. I think that Asura would make great siege ammo in WvWvW! I want to be able to load up my treb with Asura and toss them at the enemy.

Just imagine the possibilities:

Asura Elementalist Treb toss – Fire, Water, Lightning and Earth ammo
Asura Mesmer Toss Catapult toss – Illusion toss, which one is real?
Asura Gaurdian Toss – extra damage to walls
Asura Warrior Toss – a really angry Asura that does extra damage when it hits
Asura Thief Toss – steals supplies from the supply depot
Asura Ranger Toss – double hit with pet and asura
Asura Engineer Toss – napalm area effect

Make it so ArenaNet!

Lol,great ideeaa !!

I would love to see Dwarves in Gw2 as a playable race ( i wouldnt use one prob since im keeping it on one char,my norn ) but i always like to see dwarves,loved them in gw1 aswell.

Starwolf.4891:

Thieves are definitely annoying in WvW I won’t deny that, most are built extreme glass cannon and for 1v1 combat and that’s sort of what the class was designed for. I’m not trying to defend thieves but running a defensive warrior unless I get caught unaware I can usually survive the initial burst of damage, the beef I have with thieves is when they fail to kill me they can just run away and most of the time there’s nothing I can do about it. For those saying that they get killed in 3 seconds by a thief as a tank warrior/guardian it’s probably because you were killed unprepared/out of position.

Seems like most people agree it’s the stealth mechanic that needs to be looked at, and not the thiefs burst damage (shouldn’t thieves have the best burst damage in the game considering they’re a class that somewhat relies on 1v1 ambushes in close combat?).

This,exactly,i can evade their backstab i can pop stability i can pop endure pain and evade some more,but when they are Constantly stealthing and appearing miles away with full hp only to return and do the same thing over again,you people do realize the cd on warriors stability’s and endure pain right ? While they are again Constantly in stealth,for some classes there is Nothing you can do about it unless your running with a zerg.Honestly it seems that most disagreeing with this fact are thieves themselves.