1. This would change more than you intend it to. Theves have some great party stealth combos. Smokescreen + blinding powder + clusterbomb + SR can get entire teams past unnecessary fights. Combo stealth is only 3 seconds anyway and not affected by Meld with Shadows.
2. They proposed this a long while ago, playtested it (I would hope), then decided to go with revealed lasting 4 seconds instead because it wouldn’t really solve the problem the way you think it would. This would increase spam. There would be no reason to pull off from a backstab if you couldn’t hit the backside. This would also hurt D/D more than D/P since they couldn’t tactically time a CnD anymore, but D/P could still chain BPS + HS (even if it didn’t stack like you propose).
3. This bugs me too, but I think it’s intended to balance stealth. That’s what makes cloaked in shadow a great utility because it partially covers an inherent weakness of the utility of stealth.
4. This really bugs me as well, and really should be reverted, but I think the logic here is that damage isn’t nearly as high in sPvP so people need a longer time to kill you. This doesn’t take into account how channeled skills follow stealth targets (including leaps and other melee skill) and the (maximum) 33% nerf to thief defenses. It also really messes you up with guild training/sparring for WvW small group and GvG.
About Nr2… Removing leap finisher from HS would solve the OP issue and still keep the party stealth combos. Lets get real … no one intentionally heartseekers anything but smoke fields.
Edit. That would remove BP+hs combo entirelly. My brain glitch. Alltho i wouldnt mind
1. kitten yes
2. kitten no
3. Very controversial
4. kitten yes
5. kitten no (you dont play bs thief if u offer this, cause landing clean backstab is allready hard enough against ppl that know how to move around. Not even gonna speak about landing backstabs on mesmers, no matter clean or not, but thats a bit off topic).
So in current condi damage meta when condition users with all their tankyness BURST harder then physical builds, they chose to nerf crit damage ? Makes sense.
Honestly, revert ALL nerfs, across the board, and balance everything separately. The bulk of the early ele nerfs were more a result of opponents being too stupid to counter, rather than anything OP about the builds. The same can be said for the ranger.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough – keep ALL PvP nerfs as PvP only. Gutting entire classes to satisfy 10% of the game populace is… shortsighted is the most polite term I can use.
Dear sir, are you claiming that cough*only*cough 10 % of gw2 population is stupid ?
Any lvl thief is completally and absolutelly squishy with no defensive cooldowns and stealth aint gonna help u in boss fight. Use ranged weapon on world bosses.
Rally of any kind is wrong atm. Rally from mobs must go, rally from other players must go, group ressing downed/dead players must go, ress speed must be at least 2x slower.
I think downed state is one of the worst mechanics ive seen in an mmo so far
I like the idea of Downstate, i just think typical to good old Anet, the implementation has been VERY poor, Stealth classes simply 100% chance will kill you without you being able to do ANYTHING about it.
Others can be easily countered with Stability, not to bad except for the fact not every class has easy access to it, or simply not enough, like Necro 1.25seconds on a 50 second cool down OR spending 30trait points and having to “bug”/“trick” way to get the stomp done…
Lol about the stealth stomps. I cant remember when i actually had a sucessfull stealth stomp in any situation besides 1×1. Or are u the person who freeze up when u see thief entering stealth at your downed mate ? Personally from my experience, once i attempt a stealth stomp in multiple targets situation, most of the time i get pulled/pushed/knocked around and forced to go into defensive. Unless there are no enemies with descent IQ around. So stop blaming stealth stomps cause that stoped being effective long time back. Invulnerability/shadowstep stomps > stealth stomps.
Thats basic p/d condi build that is here … forever. Was working like a charm back in day when ppl didnt slot so many condition cleansers. Now … not so much … Some builds are simply impossible to bleed out.
Who said a thief zerg would go against another zerg? As I said, they don’t go charging in, they take you from behind, one by one, when you’re not stacked, then retreat, and repeat.
Can’t chase what you can’t see!
OP said. Or why would a zerg go against anything but a zerg?
Lets face it… downed state isnt going anywhere… rally mechanics isnt going anywhere, cause thats what makes gw2 what it is. Thee only thing that should and MUST be changed is the ressing speed of downed players by a lot (allso multipple ppl ressing shouldnt increase its speed). Cause now its much faster then a stomp, even if single person is ressing. Spamming ress to prevent someone from getting stomped or even damaged down shouldnt be viable tactic, cc to prevent the stomp alltogether or damage pressure on attacker to make him go into defensive should be.
I read your previous posts about how u fail at spvp. No build will teach you how to play. 10 g says issue here is not with the build, but with the player.
Venoms are mostly about conditions, and half of them do damage. But venom traits lock you out of condition damage.
Traiting yourself for venoms nets you power, condition duration, toughness, and healing power. Venomous Power grants some quick might, but this doesn’t make up for the deficit in condition damage. I can’t help feeling that this lack of damage synergy is a critical part of why so many people view venoms as a “bad build.”
This a tricky problem. Venoms work great with their traited minor attributes, (condition duration and healing power), but have no use for the major attributes, (power and toughness).
I have hope, though. There is room for one more venom trait in the Shadow Arts line.
So, create a new trait:
Venomous Adaptation
For each venom on your skillbar: lose (x) Power and (x) Toughness, and gain (x*2.5) Condition Damage.
Some shuffling might be required, but that’s another topic.
Biggest part of condition damage comes from gear, not from traits. Same as with any other stat.
It can be fun all you want, but once it would collide with any other zerg there would be carpet of dead thiefs.
True thieves don’t charge head-on, they stealth, they hide.. and then they take you from behind.
Thieves wont survive enemys zerg splash damage. You can stealth all you want but u wont get nowere close to stacked up zerg.
Ever read discworld? The secret to not dying isn’t being tough, or fast, it’s simply not being where the other guy’s sword is :P
Ofc, thats the way thiefs are forced to play. And there is the with it, it doesnt work with zergs vs zerg warfare in gw2. Normal zerg with guardians/warriors/eles/necros/mesmers would simply be immune to thiefs zerg in that case. When saying zerg i mean stacked up blob ofc – thiefs cant come close to that and live. If stacking up would be impossible ( cough*collision detection*cough ) there might be different situation then.
F2 skill :
Stalk in shadows: enters indefinite stealth mode. Cannot use any skills, utillities. Any action will cause revealed.
1 skill when under effect of stalk in shadows: Reveal yourself. Leaves indefinite stealth mode and causes 3s of revealed.
“you really think your damage will decrease simply because of cooldowns? are you serious? you’ll still do 7k backstabs. you’ll still do 12k unloads whether the cooldown is 0 or 20 seconds. i guess if the thief gets cooldowns, it won’t be the players the thief kills that need to ‘l2p’”
i’ll laugh my kitten off the day arenanet finally realizes that their two most appealing classes are incredibly broken(thief and warrior) that being said, rogue and warrior classes are always the strongest in every mmorpg to date. although being able to stealth every 3 seconds is pretty new.
PS: i can’t wait for this post to be flamed.
Actually, damage would most likely need an increase if they were given cooldowns. Right now backstab has a multiplier of 2.4 from behind. A warrior’s eviscerate has a multipliers of 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0 depending on the adrenaline level. Heartseeker also only has a multipler of 2.0 at it’s highest level (under 25% health), while final thrust has a multiplier of 3.0 at under 50% health. Our utility skills would also need a buff using Headshot vs. Magic Bullet as an example. Whether you want to believe it or not, our skills are already balanced around repeated usage and would need buffs if they were balanced around CDs.
if used properly, heartseeker is fine with a ~3s cooldown. i mean you’re really arguing that both warrior and thief are broken. strange thing is, warrior does all of this with cooldowns and a ton of interruptable skills. their risk of failure is higher than a thief’s risk of failure to hit, since dodging something you can’t see can be kind of hard.
If that would happen, HS better insta-kill my target.
i guess 7k crits aren’t high enough. most classes would kill for this without cooldowns. engineer for example. i mean you really must not wvw much if you think a 3 second cooldown is alot.
You really must not www much if u think that heartseeker crits 7 k to anything but full berserker or upleveled dead man walking with less then 25 % hp and no defensive utilities.
“you really think your damage will decrease simply because of cooldowns? are you serious? you’ll still do 7k backstabs. you’ll still do 12k unloads whether the cooldown is 0 or 20 seconds. i guess if the thief gets cooldowns, it won’t be the players the thief kills that need to ‘l2p’”
i’ll laugh my kitten off the day arenanet finally realizes that their two most appealing classes are incredibly broken(thief and warrior) that being said, rogue and warrior classes are always the strongest in every mmorpg to date. although being able to stealth every 3 seconds is pretty new.
PS: i can’t wait for this post to be flamed.
Actually, damage would most likely need an increase if they were given cooldowns. Right now backstab has a multiplier of 2.4 from behind. A warrior’s eviscerate has a multipliers of 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0 depending on the adrenaline level. Heartseeker also only has a multipler of 2.0 at it’s highest level (under 25% health), while final thrust has a multiplier of 3.0 at under 50% health. Our utility skills would also need a buff using Headshot vs. Magic Bullet as an example. Whether you want to believe it or not, our skills are already balanced around repeated usage and would need buffs if they were balanced around CDs.
if used properly, heartseeker is fine with a ~3s cooldown. i mean you’re really arguing that both warrior and thief are broken. strange thing is, warrior does all of this with cooldowns and a ton of interruptable skills. their risk of failure is higher than a thief’s risk of failure to hit, since dodging something you can’t see can be kind of hard.
Actually, the only problem I have with warriors is they don’t quite give up enough for what they get. I’d be hard pressed to call anything OP as that’s how classes get nerfed into oblivion (looking at D/D ele). I’d rather they leave warriors where they are and adjust everything else around them. For more reference, necro’s ghastly claws have a 2.8 multiplier which can be boosted by the same trait that reduces the recharge to about 6.5 seconds. I think most people would be hard pressed to call axe necros OP.
So i was running CoF P1 last day with only 2 warriors in pt (obviously full dps build) and was amazed of how fast bosses droped. After i comented about amazing warriors dps, got replied that they have to "give up too much defences for that dps). I was like … lol try rolling a thief then
“you really think your damage will decrease simply because of cooldowns? are you serious? you’ll still do 7k backstabs. you’ll still do 12k unloads whether the cooldown is 0 or 20 seconds. i guess if the thief gets cooldowns, it won’t be the players the thief kills that need to ‘l2p’”
i’ll laugh my kitten off the day arenanet finally realizes that their two most appealing classes are incredibly broken(thief and warrior) that being said, rogue and warrior classes are always the strongest in every mmorpg to date. although being able to stealth every 3 seconds is pretty new.
PS: i can’t wait for this post to be flamed.
Actually, damage would most likely need an increase if they were given cooldowns. Right now backstab has a multiplier of 2.4 from behind. A warrior’s eviscerate has a multipliers of 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0 depending on the adrenaline level. Heartseeker also only has a multipler of 2.0 at it’s highest level (under 25% health), while final thrust has a multiplier of 3.0 at under 50% health. Our utility skills would also need a buff using Headshot vs. Magic Bullet as an example. Whether you want to believe it or not, our skills are already balanced around repeated usage and would need buffs if they were balanced around CDs.
if used properly, heartseeker is fine with a ~3s cooldown. i mean you’re really arguing that both warrior and thief are broken. strange thing is, warrior does all of this with cooldowns and a ton of interruptable skills. their risk of failure is higher than a thief’s risk of failure to hit, since dodging something you can’t see can be kind of hard.
If that would happen, HS better insta-kill my target.
i guess 7k crits aren’t high enough. most classes would kill for this without cooldowns. engineer for example. i mean you really must not wvw much if you think a 3 second cooldown is alot.
You really must not www much if u think that heartseeker crits 7 k to anything but full berserker or upleveled dead man walking with less then 25 % hp and no defensive utilities.
D/D backstab build that has more survivability then P/D ? In what world ? Oh and in what server ppl gets seperated for free kills ? I want to transfer. Once they see me they turttle up and start spamming cc.
Just change it to god kitten 3s of invulnerability or smth… “Ohh but invulnerability doesnt fit thief profile, last refuge does !”. You’re right there, Chucky! Dieing couse of broken game mechanics fits thiefs profile very nice (not even joking here) !
I run similar valkyrie/zerk build. Used to use beryl orbs, but in time switched to divinity runes just because it costs much. Was thinking of getting traveler runes to clean SoS spot, but im just too addicted to it couse of targeted AoE blind it provides which proven to be very usefull combined with cloaked in shadow blind on stealth.
I don’t think your build was viable to begin with, to be completely honest. Any backstab build should be running Hidden Killer if they don’t already have 100% crit chance, and your distribution is all over the place. It looks more like a sword build than a dagger build, and you may as well be going 30 in Trickery for Sleight of Hand to prioritize the enemy’s stability boon.
Haha fair enough. Thanks for the honesty- in my defense, there weren’t exactly many accepted builds when I left, so I was trying different things out.
Edit: looking around I’m seeing a lot of references to Jinzu’s build. Does that one still work?
Why the hell do you people keep looking and copying other ppl created (named) builds ?
I can’t speak for everyone, but I played WoW for a long time and to be a competitive rogue you pretty much had to at least base your gearing and build off those made by the theory crafters.
I’m now learning that that isn’t the case in GW2 (which is really nice), but that was why I started by looking for named builds. I’d imagine other people who look for known builds have a similar thought process.
Wow talent trees used to be complex. Gw2 tallent trees isnt. But if you are desperate about it… 30 in shadow arts with shadow rejuvenation, shadow embrace and/or clocked in shadow is a staple of any wvw roaming thief build, might it be burst or conditions. D/D 0/30/30/10 with hidden killer, Shadow rejuvenation, shadow embrace and cloaked in shadow is a nice time tested not overly abused like d/p blind powder spam builds was/is. Oh and shadowstep is a must for any build.
Why the hell do you people keep looking and copying other ppl created (named) builds ?
Do you also reinvent the wheel every time you want to drive a car? or ride a bicycle?
Regarding OP, it heavily depends on what you consider “viable.”
That said, one of the more Popular sPvP builds right now is rather similar to your build trait-wise.
I would conscider at least switching out one of the utilities (Probably smoke screen) for a stunbreak.
Other than that, I think it could be playable.
Im not saying to reinvent wheel. All im saying is if the person has at least some expierence with class he will come up with a build that will work just fine (and surprise surprise IT WILL be one of those popular builds that someone supposedly came up with first and published on youtube lol). Becouse gw2 character customisation is as easy as it gets.
I don’t think your build was viable to begin with, to be completely honest. Any backstab build should be running Hidden Killer if they don’t already have 100% crit chance, and your distribution is all over the place. It looks more like a sword build than a dagger build, and you may as well be going 30 in Trickery for Sleight of Hand to prioritize the enemy’s stability boon.
Haha fair enough. Thanks for the honesty- in my defense, there weren’t exactly many accepted builds when I left, so I was trying different things out.
Edit: looking around I’m seeing a lot of references to Jinzu’s build. Does that one still work?
Why the hell do you people keep looking and copying other ppl created (named) builds ?
1. Pick a weapon set that looks nice and flashy for your eye and would work for your purpose.
2. Use common sense and distribute your 70 talent points as you feel appropriate for your purpose (burst, sustain, tanky, conditions etc etc). Do the same with gear.
3. Start playing with it and discover that it is one of few builds that are “viable” as you say.
4(Optional). Fail at nr2 and 3 and reroll to googled warrior build.
I will say it honestly I think I’m starting to get used to it. Saved me a couple of times in the last few weeks in WvW (though it got me downed many more times in the past year). I still think the trait needs to be reworked but after a year I do not know if it will be.
It works well for passive play style when u get low on hp and have all your utilities blown so u decide to go with the flow… well there are some of us who dont think that its time to give up just yet. IT DOES NOT WORK when u get low on hp and decide to do smth about it – stealth. It would work remotelly if there would be its cooldown indicator on the screen, but there isnt. So now when u get low health u get to gamble… either just run around and hope it activates, or risk of using CnD (speaking x/d builds ofc) and getting revealed which WILL lead you to certain death.
How Many Ultimate Dominators are there now? I can only think of 2 off the top of my head. Thought it would be fun to just see how many have maxed it at this point in the game.
List:
Sacrx
Indo
Not sure if this thread has been made already but thought I’d toss it out there.
I think that I’ll probably abandon GW2 for the first Oculus Rift supported MMO.
I’m just tired of old.
GW2 did some pretty amazing things – but they also backpedaled on a lot of promises too, and after 6 months it’s become stale, with little hope in sight that they’ll actually fix the core issues.
The problems with the Thief are just emblematic – the Rogue archetype has always been my favorite, but the Thief in GW2 has nearly destroyed the fun I have with it – I’ve never played a Rogue that actually made me dislike it as much as in this game. I used to run a Witch Elf in WAR, and an Assassin/Nightblade/Bladedancer in Rift, and of course, Rogue in WoW, and while each has it’s problems, none of them have actually turned me away from the class as much as the GW2 Thief has.
The entire class is so awkward, so unwieldy, it’s highly frustrating.
…
Zero Day ftw, his posts are always worth reading
Thanks!
I’m a bit pessimistic due to WvW’ing with a thief is a bit depressing…
WvW in general is depressing. Logged in yesterday after more then a month break, killed few clueless upleveled kitten s, u know the usual thief stuff… and the skill lag kicked in… while the map didnt even had queue… getting one more month break and hope for anet to start giving a kitten.
Infact valk gear is better than soliders/zerkers and aint useless. Most of d/D thieves’s damage comes from backstabs which allways crits if you got hidden killer. And no you cant just think EHP and Attack power. As precison dossnt matter on a hidden killer backstab. And vitality matters more when youre bouncing in stealth due to heavy condtions and chaincondi. allows you to surive a burst/condi chain more. You gotta speak of experince and thinking wisely instead of calculating with a calculator.You prolly agree if you read this whole kitten. But valk + hidden killer vs full zerker + hidden killer on of you got applied fortidute the guard defense wxp trait. Go valk + hidden killer until you get that. Best stats for roaming is: About 3 k attack. 105 % or more crit damage. 2300 armor and 16 k hp (No applied fortidute) 14 k HP (with applied fortidute) WvWvW perspective.
Do not listen to a single word that Big says, he refuses to change his position on the armour debate despite being shown countless evidence and being proved undeniably wrong a billion times. He is completely ignorant of the mathematics of this game and refuses to acknowledge it.
I repeat, IGNORE BIG UNLESS YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR GEAR MONEY.
That being said, please read the link I posted above, Cond, it contains actual hard evidence for the best possible min-max combinations for a D/D Thief running x/30/30/x/x from a long time theorycrafter who actually knows what he’s talking about.
DPS min-max and damage in actual pvp are 2 different things. All those calculations only show DPS on stationary target. BACKSTAB thief wants his backstab damage maxed, not his DPS on stationary target maxed (im not counting all you heartseeker bunnies, speaking purely about backstab thiefs). And keeping all gear parts with crit damage and main stat power does exactly that. Mixing in more valkyrie parts instead of less soldier to achieve same EHP (lol at your terms which has nothing to do with reality) and keeping max crit damage possible will allways be better for hidden killer WvW builds.
62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)
none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.
Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……
dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.
Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.
where did i say i had carrion gear? obv its zerk
Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……[/quote]
dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.
[/quote]
62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)
none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.
Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……
dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.
Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.
Did you ever consider they are trying to body block you on purpose and you failed to work around it, and that its not just random bad luck?
Well when it comes to mesmers and their clone generator, yeah, good ones really try to body block you, but single target attack mechanics is what makes it very easy to pull off. As the person above said, we might aswell have a crosshair targeting like in TERA for example, cause target locking has little to no use in meele with current mechanics.
And speaking of backstabs hitting targets that should be completely out of the way but apparently they arent – happens all the time, at least when fighting mesmers. Never had much trouble with necromancers and their zombie army soaking up backstabs, but didnt see many necros running around with minions in www.
“As for myself, I’ve always hated the perma stealth thief builds, both to play and to use. So really, for WvW I’ve been using either 0/20/30/20 or 0/30/30/10, both are fun, but both have used D/P”.
I have allways hated perma stealth, so i picked d/p combined with 30SA as my build. Makes sense.
Playing D/P doesn’t necessarily mean he’s playing as a permastealth thief. The build doesn’t need long durations of stealth to make it viable. The fact that its on-demand stealth with a shadowstep, daze and blind field that has no cooldown makes it pretty powerful with or without stealth stacking.
Oh cmon, we all know how it is. And if you chose 30 in SA, you are playing (or trying to) perma stealth build.
