Guild Wars 2

It was made for zerglings, same as any www map.

If only ppl would know that there is no “stealth spam” in this game.

Dingodime.8264:

Karolis.4261:

Cheese is a diary product you dumb kittens.

Misspells dairy, calls people dumb…

So smart…

Mordecai.6318:

Karolis.4261:

Cheese is a diary product you dumb kittens.

Best post NA.

Its EU!

Galsia.4102:

From your 34sec perma-stealth example video I could tell what build and trait allocations you were using; you have absolutely awful survivability and damage output.

30pts into SA to get Shadow Rejuvenation, else really there’s no point in staying in stealth. Adept and Master slots are Infusion of Shadow and Patience respectively in order to upkeep initiative regen. That means no Shadow’s Embrace, so you have awful condi-removal; Shadow Step isn’t reliable on a 50sec CD. You could run Lyssa runes to give you a little bit more condi-removal, but I can see you’re running Centaur Runes because you gained Swiftness on Withdraw.

Speaking of Withdraw, you also gained Vigor and initiative on use, so that fills in the rest of the points with 10pts in Acro and 30pts in Trickery.

In your other video I watched the first couple seconds to see your gear choice. Using that gear with the build for perma-stealthing you have:

2,943 Attack
22% Crit Chance
58% Crit Damage

…yeah, uh, excuse me while I go die from laughter.

Im certain that his perma stealth example video is made in Dire gear, so you might want to lower those stats that you came up with for whatever reason o,O .

Cheese is a diary product you dumb kittens.

urieldhynne.2743:

Valentin. Stealth is broken as hell, you don’t seen anything yet. You will see with the time.

All those players who said “learn to counter and blah blah blah”, they are all thief.

Is true thief need survivability because your low armor/health, the same as another classes, stealth (plus blinds, plus evasions, plus mobility, plus interrupts all of this spammeable) is just too much and too much annoying to fight against. You only can not kill a good thief, you cant leave the combat neither. You need to wait the infinite amounts of attempts the thief come over and over to try to one-shoot you, flee, reset everything and try again, over and over.

The fight need to end in a reasonable time. In every game, with a winner (alive/he continue playing) and loser (dead/unable to play for a x moment or need to restart). This is a game about run away and “morally” win a fight because your enemy fled. And that is so lame.

Welcome to GW2 real pvp, in wvw you will see how broken is this game, not only in stealth.

Oh we are talking again about 30/30/30/30/30 build with no cooldowns on weapon swaps, infinite initiative, 20 utility slots, full cleric gear and one shooting ppl. Tried that build, was too easy, felt kinda unfair… nerf plz.

Valentin.2073:

Karolis.4261:

Valentin.2073:

Karolis.4261:

Valentin.2073:

i see thieves all over this thread defending their broken class. lmao

i’m sure majority of these thieves dont do spvp at all because they dont have the skill for it. they enjoy running a class in a place that wont require them to use their brains at all (wvw is the only place where they can abuse stealth).

i cant wait for these no-skill braindead players get the nerf they all deserve.

We can “abuse” stealth in spvp just the same. But it wont win the match.

then obviously you need more nerfing here in wvw. i cant see why you guys think it’s fun playing such a no-risk high reward poor excuse of a class.

How would we need more nerfing in www when stealth works just the same in spvp (Just most thiefs chose not to use it because it wont help you reach your goals there) and you consider spvp thiefs balanced as it is ? Why do you think that playing glass ranger i WwW is viable when you can totally annihilate stealth “abusing” thiefs with ranger trap build there ? Can you 1×1 any non afk class gunning viable build and 2 hands in www with a glass ranger and win (dont answer this, we all know the real answer and it is – no ). Oh and I bet you use 2x bows as your weapon set up.

trap build is not even viable in tpvp, man. lol. do you even know what you’re talking about? i’ll give you a list of professions that i can beat as a zerker ranger 1v1 in both pvp and wvw: thief, guardian, engi, ele and another ranger. i try to avoid other classes not included on the list when i’m roaming.

usually when a thief tries to duel me in wvw, he will not disengage because he thinks i’m an easy kill so i get to kill them but when it becomes a 2v1 or 3v1, they go spam their stealth a bit too much. it is very annoying.

Do YOU even know what are you talking about ? Area control is hard counter vs thiefs. That what trap ranger has to offer when fighting thief – area control.
W8 what? So you can actually kill thiefs as a glass ranger and you still see thiefs being OP. You ppl really want a walking loot bag lol.

frans.8092:

Slowly getting worse, in little decrements. Next victim is the immensely overpowered poison field from shortbow #4

Just because they have to nerf SOMETHING in every patch and just cant find anything else

Valentin.2073:

Karolis.4261:

Valentin.2073:

i see thieves all over this thread defending their broken class. lmao

i’m sure majority of these thieves dont do spvp at all because they dont have the skill for it. they enjoy running a class in a place that wont require them to use their brains at all (wvw is the only place where they can abuse stealth).

i cant wait for these no-skill braindead players get the nerf they all deserve.

We can “abuse” stealth in spvp just the same. But it wont win the match.

then obviously you need more nerfing here in wvw. i cant see why you guys think it’s fun playing such a no-risk high reward poor excuse of a class.

How would we need more nerfing in www when stealth works just the same in spvp (Just most thiefs chose not to use it because it wont help you reach your goals there) and you consider spvp thiefs balanced as it is ? Why do you think that playing glass ranger i WwW is viable when you can totally annihilate stealth “abusing” thiefs with ranger trap build there ? Can you 1×1 any non afk class gunning viable build and 2 hands in www with a glass ranger and win (dont answer this, we all know the real answer and it is – no ). Oh and I bet you use 2x bows as your weapon set up.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

There is no such thing as using “Stealth beyond normal”.
It is a Mechanic which all thieves have and usually have to use to survive besides using Mobility which got nerfed so you often see these kind of Stealth Builds.

Is it annoying as hook? Yes it is, some thieves use certain skills, utilities and traits especially from the Shadow Arts line, but eventually you’ll get used to it and adapt to their shenanigans unless they run full zerker.

I suggest you run for your life unless you have the capability and knowledge about what you are up against without being insta-gibbed or dying a slow death to conditions (the latest P/D cheese)

The latest P/D Cheese? What are you talking about lol? P/D was so much more effective back in day then it is now. Even if he didnt have those 2 torment stacks on nr.3, which is still useless imo.

Valentin.2073:

i see thieves all over this thread defending their broken class. lmao

i’m sure majority of these thieves dont do spvp at all because they dont have the skill for it. they enjoy running a class in a place that wont require them to use their brains at all (wvw is the only place where they can abuse stealth).

i cant wait for these no-skill braindead players get the nerf they all deserve.

We can “abuse” stealth in spvp just the same. But it wont win the match.

Stealth is same in every game mode (exept 4 s reveal in spvp that is just wrong). The reason why sPvP thieves dont use much of it or dont use stealth at all is because you cant cap points in stealth and you have to sacrifice a lot of burst for stealth to be useful.
WvW roaming thiefs spec heavy into stealth for obvious reasons – mind kittening glass rangers that are not aware of how stealth works.

Im honestly trying to use dancing dagger in pvp situations, but half of time it gets obstructed by something that isnt even there, other half it just disapears into nowhere never reaching its target. So most of the time its just wastes 3 initiative.

Porturan.9684:

Hello, fellow assasins! I’ll get to my point right off the bat. Is it better to go for power or critical damage for a build centered around pistol whip skill?

I’m going for a build in sPvP but can’t really decide if i should go power or crit damage since pistol whip skill scales with power (3.14).

I actually don’t know how power scaling effects overall damage so I’m asking your opinions about it. =)

Emm… Both and precision on top of it.

Burnfall.9573:

Few days ago, the thief guild i belong to brought the same issues as the Op and concluded how overall thief “balance” is a joke. So in conclusion they all voted to lesson their time with guild wars 2 for other mmo’s company who know how to Balance their professions/classes/jobs etc… and most importantly, Values all their professions etc…

Since many of us including myself had already lesson our time playing this “Balance” game, we can say how glad we are to the members who took their final step; i’m near my end as well.

Favoritism and Oppression is what Guild Wars 2 is all about.

The Only classes who Intentionally remain Un-Resolved since the 1st day are; Thief, and Ranger.

Obviously by now Everyone know by now, who the Favorite and Un-Favorite class are.

Well,

The only solution to all of this Theatrics and Injustice, is to completely remove and replace those who’s responsible of Intentionally plaguing this game within Arena.net.

Last week alone, 39 players + 1 large guild in a popular server had completely quit the game.

Time will tell when Arena.net will be Serious about ending Favoritism and Injustice.

Many and many will not bear witness when that happen. In other word, when the game is in it’s final life cycle, that’s when Arena.net will finally care (at least that’s the way i see things are going).

Look at the next “Balance” patch; not one thing serious thing about it; same, same issues, problems, theatrics, favoritism, and unbalance remains.

Seriously, not 1 care or solution to their concerned community players..whatsoever.

Until than.

Wake me up when this Nightmare End

Wake me up when Actions are taken

i almost forgot,

words, words, talks, talks, talking will not work on me.

Only Actions

well.. time up!

I’m off to playing Mmo’s whose companies Value, Care, Listen and Practice Justice, Practice Equal Treatment to their game, professions and their communities of players.

Burnfall belongs to a thief guild? But he is bearbow and bad even by bearbow standarts o,O

Oh just cut the crap already, Anet. Double downed rally time, remove hard resurrection in combat and many problems will go away. Im pretty sure at some point rally speed was even increased.

CEDWYN.5392:

Another reason to uninstall the game.

Karolis.4261:

There is nothing wrong with pvp gameplay mixed with pve.

Shill, get out of this thread you shill.

Blobling, get out of this thread you blobling.

Dawdler.8521:

Chorazin.4107:

Heres some Egg Na Nog Adventurers bombing the Kzar zerg just for the lulz, the zerg still wins but they at least get some kills for their organisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

I have seen that specific video before in this type of discussion and its a ridiculous comparison. Seriously, its a matter of precision. That video just shows how bloody low res old MMOs are – and I’m not talking about graphics. I’m talking about the core math behind everything. The most obvious thing being detail in movement. GW2 is 100x more detailed in how a character behaves, compared to your moving sticks with nametags and a static animation with flailing legs. This is going to be reflected in the netcode as well.

Hell, even the numbers in that video is small compared to the megablobs seen in WvW, where a battle between all 3 servers can cover the entire width of the area between east bay and garrison and last 20 minutes.

Comparing GW2 to DoAC and saying “if they did it why cant you, its almost the same game!” is a bloody insult to the developers and the achievement that is fluid WvW.

Fluid WWW? Plz… You call those “megablobs” clashing into each other facerolling their keyboards, causing all the skill lag (because obviously game cant handle that) fluid gameplay?

There is nothing wrong with pvp gameplay mixed with pve.

Fix it or turn off kittening www.

No.
Message Body length must at least be 15.

Aeonblade.8709:

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

Zerg =/= blob. Gw2 doesn’t have issues with zerging, Gw2 has issues with blobing. In every other mmorpg i played, players were directly punished for stacking up. Take “Rift” conquest for example- total zerg fest: but players that were stacking up was getting totally wiped by groups that spread out in the field, circle them up and fry their blob with aoes till the y get nice and crispy and thats how it should be.

Slockie.2351:

Hi guys!

I was wondering if someone could help me make a choice for my ascended armor.

I’m a Sword/Pistol-Shortbow Thief who mainly focuses on the regular PvE content (Dungeons, World Events, …) and I rarely WvW.

Right now I’m running Valkyrie armor (of Divinity), along with Zerker weapons and trinkets, but I’m not quite sure if that’s the best way to go. So for my ascended armor to be truly ascended, I want it to be the right choice aswell.

I’ve been running Valkyrie because of the increased vitality, since us Thieves don’t really have a lot of health to begin with. But I’m also a min-maxer so I’m a bit worried about the precision I will be missing out on. People have been telling me zerk is the way to go in all of PvE, but I’m worried that I’ll become the infamous “Paper Thief”.

Any feedback?

Thanks in advance

Either you will use full berserker build or mix in some valkyrie parts, you will still get one shoted by most bosses, even mobs, so only option here is not to get hit. Pistol whip helps a lot in that.

Burnfall.9573:

Thief Class

So you want to have Unlimitedly Power, Insufficient Privilege to Control everything?

So you want law defying criminals to be free to break the laws as they please?

So you want rule defying criminals to be free to break the rules as they please?

So you want criminals to commit Injustice and to be Justified for it?

So you want criminals to commit massacre, slaughter, butcher, and exterminate against the innocent?

So you want to do crazy damage against the helpless, less capable, the vulnerable?

So this is your mission, purpose and destiny for the world of guild wars 2, am i correct Thief Class?

All along, this was your plan and final draft for the world of guild wars 2, am i correct Thief Class?

Yes, you have problem with that ?

26:40-45 that epic HS spam down the hill:D

Oh moa is awesome, every time i get turned into moa its like a minigame! Peck the mesmer to death!

Let me shine some light to you. 15 s of poison is as op as 25s is as op as 25min. It doesnt do more damage because it has huge uptime. Either its 15s or 25 min u will want to remove it.. All it takes to get rid of it is single condi cleanse, no matter its 15s or 25 min.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Wow, I guess the sarcasm was too strong :x I thought people would get it with the “as only over 1000 HPS without much investment into healing power”, but I guess that one flew over too. Sarcasm was intended, people!

Because kittens believe in such numbers.

Player.8373:

Karolis.4261:

Wow just wow … 8 people killed by single thief. Even if you are terrible you can just keep hard ressing each other (although thief shouldn’t even be able to stomp anyone 1×8:D ) over and over and he cant do jack squat about it. Upgrade your blue gears and l2p.

hihey.1075:

I swear, even though I like to fight outnumbered against Zergers (because any decent group of roamers know how to counter thieves), I have never, EVER, managed to win a 1v8.
Those guys must be absolutely terrible at this game, or they were all upleveleds, or they bought the game yesterday (so high chance of being uplvld).

teg.1340:

Player.8373:

These thiefs do mass damage and you can t do anything about it. and if you get them low , they will imidiatly get in stealth regain half of their health and you can t do anything about it.

It is called Hide in Shadows, not Shadows Rejuvenation. Its the #6 heal. Its on a 30s cooldown. It got a 1s casttime and a highly telegraphed animation. Feel free to interrupt it like almost every other heal #6 skill.

Shadows Rejuvenation is 300 hps, so in order to regenerate half health a thief must stay ~25s in stealth. O_o

So please get your facts right, then come back.

Nope I already asked to a thief from my own server. He uses SR aswell with healing power stuff. This way he heals alot with the heal indeed,but he also gets heal with BP and SRef aswell. After that D5 gives him heal too. As I already said the people around me didn t res the downed. Only I did res. I played as a thief but not as these kind of thiefs. Condi thiefs are not the biggest problem , because of condi removal. But these thiefs run some kind of strange armor I don t really understand the use off.. (my thief runs berserker). And clearly people didn t read my last message…..

Also the mesmer and I nuked the SR full with our AOE attacks (he chaos storms I trow all my marks on him) (we both run condi). Plz tell me what I did wrong, because clearly you guys call me a noob. But I’ve never lost such a fight against 1 prof. And believe me or not (because you clearly do not) I’ve seen this guy come out of stealth with a hack ton of health.

plz tell me, how this could have happend without calling me/us a noob. I am sure that our war, mesmer , ranger ,guardian and I are 80. Tell me without saying no this can t be etc. etc. Some of you guys clearly have no idea what happend (even I made a long post).

So let me understand the situation. You were attacked by full stealth backstab d/d thief. I would gues thats 0/30/30/10/0 or 10/30/30/0/0 build. He was doing “mass damage” <—— i figure that means he was doing high damage, so i gues he had hidden killer trait and was critting every backstab with his maxed out crit damage and power. So far so good, kinda. He was rejuvenating A LOT health using trait shadow rejuvenation because he was stacking lots of healing power from his gear, like that friendly thief from your server. He used Shadow refuge and BP utillities (blinding powder i gues? not black power, since he used d/d u say). Allso D5 (dagger 5 skill? ) used to give him heals too, that sounds like assassins reward – acrobatics tree 20 trait. So we are looking here at thief with maxed out healing power, maxed out power and crit power to do all that “mass damage” with at least 80 trait points cause from what information i have managed to gather from your stories he uses 0/30/30/20/0 build, cause he needs to reach that awesome assassins reward (acro 20). Why the hell didnt I think of such build for myself sooner. Respecing.

No.
Message Body length must at least be 15.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Zero Day.2594:

Originally by: Player.8373

What: Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Why: This trait is so OP in wvw. This thief outnumbered 8 guys just by useing this with the Shadow’s Embrace (condi removal in stealth). These thiefs do mass damage and you can t do anything about it. and if you get them low , they will imidiatly get in stealth regain half of their health and you can t do anything about it. Wvw is full of those thiefs and it makes it really umbalanced. I heard a guy saying yeah but if you have skill you can kill those thiefs. The only guys I seen killing those thiefs are other thiefs with the same build. Condi builds and berserker builds are useless against them. So what works? Thiefs with the same build. I hear countless people say that thief is just the best class for pvp/wvw. Where is the fun if you can t just do anything against them and get killed.
I don t call these thiefs skilled , I just call it cheap.
Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvX-Nerf-Shadow-s-Rejuvenation

Will agree that Shadow’s Rejuvenation needs to be nerfed. A lot. Assassin’s Reward shouldn’t be punishing people for actively staying in combat out of stealth while Shadow’s Rejuvenation rewards people for staying in stealth, healing them completely in a short amount of time.

I mean … do you even play a thief ? 320 hp/s while sitting in stealth… daaaaaamn that’s a lot!

I just cant stomach what does that valkyrie sword/shortbow and that soldier backpiece is doing there? Not that 80 vitality and 20 toughness gonna add you some survivability. And … where did that carrion come from?

godofcows.2451:

Jolene.7316:

LetoII.3782:

There’s actually a few places in the middle of the Atlantic. Heard of EVE online?

Their servers are in London

ausin, texas. even for eu servers.

Actually thats only login server or smth like that (and dont follow up with argument “why would they keep EU login server in NA” cause its invalid ). My WTFast finds closest proxy to gw2 eu servers in germany – that and 50-60 ping proves that its somewhere around there.

Want to trade my thiefs downed shadowstep and 2 s stealth to … pretty much anything other classes have, so i can actually make an impact to fight when im downed.

Wow just wow … 8 people killed by single thief. Even if you are terrible you can just keep hard ressing each other (although thief shouldn’t even be able to stomp anyone 1×8:D ) over and over and he cant do jack squat about it. Upgrade your blue gears and l2p.

Stealth steal build? what are u talking about? Oh and I know you come here 30 min after asking for thief damage nerfs in ele forums
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/10K-backstab/first#post3521290
You claim that there is no skill needed to play thief with constant 5 k backstabs (lol) and 30 min later you qq about getting facerolled by shatter mesmer on you thief.

necro old topics much ?

I dont get it … you comparing your auto attack with someones backstab or are you backstabbing for 2 k ?

NinjaEd.3946:

Did that thief kill anyone? Were they upleveled? These are the questions you should be asking. Trust me, you don’t want to go down that cheese bricked road, its has a bad smell on it that has caused rage for months.

And a thief can stealth for as long as they want if they spec for it, they just won’t kill you IN stealth. If you had 20 people incapable of stunning or immobilizing when they appeared , I’m afraid your allies were actually skritt. Shocking though, since they have a hive mind.

I have actually witnessed gang of skrit killing a dolly at west entrance to crossroads camp.

LetoII.3782:

Karolis.4261:

Cheechglg.8734:

I Just love when log off after a hard shift in WvW and your top, wipeing the floor with other server’s, then log in next morning to see that we lost all the hard work put in, all upgrades on keeps gone, Anet when are you going to come up with a solution to this?
Been a problem since day one if you havnt noticed.

A possible solution – Get rid of localisation, make international server’s and merge Eu and NA server’s for a 24 hour player base on all server’s

And to all the random player’s if you don’t have anything constructive to add don’t post at all! Fill the thread up with your rubbish please…. Kthxgoodbye

Lol merging EU and NA servers are the best idea ever. Oh and move servers somewhere to the middle of atlantic ocean to get rid of the ping difference between NA and EU players. There is a reason why EU players cant guest in NA servers and NA cant in EU. Same goes for not having mixed www match-ups. If ill want to ill transfer to NA and ram your towers and keeps all night long and there is nothing you can do about it. What ? Will you turn off servers for the night? Life is not fair, get over it. Kthxgoodbye.

There’s actually a few places in the middle of the Atlantic. Heard of EVE online?

Heard of Atlantica? It drowned. You know the biggest reason to play in servers physically located in your region? Ping. So no i wouldn’t play in servers located in Atlantica (lol).

Sin.4130:

ANet says – critical damage is fine in spvp, so why it isn’t fine in WvW, do we all have to blob not chose small scale fights?

Yes, because blobing is “epic”- thats official. Bloblings qq about roamers when they get repeatedly sniped and cant reach their blobs and anet will do everything in their power to help poor bloblings and rip those evil roamers out of www.

Johje Holan.4607:

A: Its not that they don’t care. Its that the parent company, NCSoft, is cheap and won’t devote the resources necessary.

To hire people with good ideas ? I mean, i know they probably have deadlines to come up with updates and balance patches, but nerf crit damage just because people that choose builds with no defensive stats in their gear clear dungeons faster then those who pick tanky gear?? Anyone see problem in this ? Damage dealers kill fast, tanks kill slow – that looks normal to me. The problem is in combat system itself, because builds that cant take a hit or they will die can chose to avoid damage alltogether by dodging and people that build themselves more tanky still can get one shoted by same mobs. Reducing crit damage and so shafting crit builds in other game modes wont fix your concept of pve. I honestly dont understand who caused this “qq them cool zerkers kids kick me out from party” meta. Full exotic berserker gear is worth weekend of gold farm and all you qqers can go do those dungeons with them zerk kids.

Cheechglg.8734:

I Just love when log off after a hard shift in WvW and your top, wipeing the floor with other server’s, then log in next morning to see that we lost all the hard work put in, all upgrades on keeps gone, Anet when are you going to come up with a solution to this?
Been a problem since day one if you havnt noticed.

A possible solution – Get rid of localisation, make international server’s and merge Eu and NA server’s for a 24 hour player base on all server’s

And to all the random player’s if you don’t have anything constructive to add don’t post at all! Fill the thread up with your rubbish please…. Kthxgoodbye

Lol merging EU and NA servers are the best idea ever. Oh and move servers somewhere to the middle of atlantic ocean to get rid of the ping difference between NA and EU players. There is a reason why EU players cant guest in NA servers and NA cant in EU. Same goes for not having mixed www match-ups. If ill want to ill transfer to NA and ram your towers and keeps all night long and there is nothing you can do about it. What ? Will you turn off servers for the night? Life is not fair, get over it. Kthxgoodbye.

Thedenofsin.7340:

OP, what you don’t realize is that this is a buff to thieves, not a nerf.

The class that benefits from this change the most is the one who possesses only a small window of opportunity in which they can be killed.

That class is thief.

Oh I see what you mean there ! Thief can be killed only when hes out of stealth, so smart!

ens.9854:

Staking a vampire won’t kill it you need to cut off head

Blasphemy!

snacktime.1082:

Replacing a crit damage with a variable stat makes sense. It actually gives them the ability to tweak how it works over time, or in different situations (pve vs wvw). It makes min/maxers go mad because it’s more work to figure out exactly what it’s doing, but it makes sense from a balancing perspective.

Replacing crit damage on gear with variable stat does make sense. However choosing Ferocity – Crit damage conversion ratio that will decrease current cit damage numbers does not. If you want to tweak down critical damage in pve w/o shafting it in www u add crit damage ressistance to mobs.

Well that what happens when they try to balance pve encounters by kittening around with player stats.

lordkrall.7241:

WvW is PvPvE.
While it does have PvP it is based around your PvE character, with your PvE gear, PvE level, PvE skills and PvE traits.

None of it made sense except for pve level. You can use same character for any game mode. Many people get separate gear/trait sets specifically for www. Any skills/mechanics difference in game modes is mistake… intentional, but mistake.

Actually many of thieves roam with backstab builds, might it be d/d and kitten d/p in valkyrie/zerker mix, maybe some cavalier in the mix too. And this will suffer more then berserker builds will.