Guild Wars 2

Thing is, necro dmg is not even high, you mainly bring nec cause it makes it easier for your team to kill things due to chill, posion and corrupts, not for its actual dmg output

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t see why it can’t be a mix of both.

If the most “deep” build also has the lowest barrier of entry and can carry bad players, does that really justify an association to said set to the skill level of the player? No, because then there’s no trend to associate with.

A player who can win with fewer resources than his opponent is inherently the better player, because with the same or more resources, he would win otherwise and thus be intrinsically more skilled because the variables would be even.

The matter is defining what those resources are and their context in any given encounter. Conceptual hurdles and interactions between any two opponents will also vary based on each others’ builds and the likes. Defining universally what it takes to be “more skilled” by just a given weapon set combination is pretty much impossible as such.

What we can measure is the “skill” of the player given fixed contexts when compared to other players. Under scrutiny, there is typically a crude association which can be made between individual skill of the player and the viability of his chosen methodology when compared to that of the highest level of play, and then cross-comparing it to his peers at the level of play he is playing at and then doing further analysis based on the rated difficulty : effectiveness ratio of said method.

It also comes down to exploiting weaknesses and what is ultimately the amount of skill disparity between the players; the bigger the disparity, the more likely the “weaker”-method player is able to win, because he’s playing better. Those at the highest performance echelons will recognize the inherent flaws in the weaker methods and of course play for the most effective regardless of the barrier of entry, since they’re at the top and the disparity between them and their opponents is extremely low as to make non-viable methods simply not work well enough.

In the case of the thief, looking at the average case, sets involving the OH dagger for example may require more skill as such to play adequately – or to play as effectively as a given opponent playing something typically more effective – when compared to kits with OH pistol. This reflects back to the statement that typically, the player must have a larger skill advantage to perform just as well as the other when using a weaker method.

It’s paradoxical in the sense that once the weak methods peak in their acceptable performance at a given echelon of play, there’s no advancement thereafter such that it’s impossible to prove the player is inherently better because the variables of the methods differ. Even if that skill gap is very tight or even favoring the weaker-method player when against peak-level or above opponents, there’s virtually no way to prove it unless he was to win a fight. In which case, the assertion about the peak is either wrong, or the player using the weak method is simply astronomically better than the other. More than likely, it’s the former (I.E. why the meta changes), rather than seeing huge upsets where professional-level players start losing to random no-names.

So I think the better question to be asking is not what the most skill-intensive kit is, but rather, for a given context (level of play, opponent, environment, etc.) what the most impressive kit to be playing is.

I think you’re confusing skilled builds with skilled players. The most skillful build is measured only with its deep mechanics, but you can determine when a player is more skilled by making him win with a worse build. So, if a thief playing a simple but underperforming A build wins a thief playing a complex but strong B build consistnetly in a PvP environtment, the A thief is more skilled, but B build is still the build that requires more skill (and probably why the B thief cant win A thief, cause he’s worse mechanically)

Yo! Am I too late for the clownfiesta?

According to this post, the hardest/skilled build for thief is no weapons, no gear, no utilities cause is the worst one at killing LUL.

Skilled builds arent the ones that require more skill to win fights, but the ones that require more skill to master. So the ones that have more depth, and not the ones that suck the most should be discussed

its been there for a few days already

So, what about making ’em useful? Maybe adding some skins or smth in the League Vendor

Abuse dodges, headshots and stealth

Its just a prank bro

rennlc.7346:

Krysard.1364:

Which doesnt change anything about the fact that wvw is about powercreeping your build, leading to unfun situations like the one being talked in this post. Whether it affects more A or B is irrelevant :p

Balance or lack thereof is always relevant.

Not talking about balance. Im talking about quality gameplay. Maybe a 20k hit is balanced cause u can spam dodges and oneshot the warr, but still unfun to play.

In eu queues pop fast enough.

rennlc.7346:

Krysard.1364:

dont play wvw if you dont like mad powercreepd dmg LUL

The damage increases probably help power thieves more than most (if not all) other classes given how we can easily deliver spike damage while avoiding hits.

Which doesnt change anything about the fact that wvw is about powercreeping your build, leading to unfun situations like the one being talked in this post. Whether it affects more A or B is irrelevant :p

dont play wvw if you dont like mad powercreepd dmg LUL

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Krysard.1364:

Thing is, mesm is nice and balanced, and then you have portal/CS moa and mesm becomes broken.

Apparently portal made mesmer broken many years ago.

No, it’s simply considered abnormal when chrono gained more 1v1 ability (whether by bunker or condi) since HoT, thus allowing mesmer to hold a point while keeping a portal on other. Before that power mesmer is basically a team oriented build that is easily shut down by a thief, so much that many ESL mesmer players except Helseth (eg. Supcutie) played thief instead.

Even when it comes down to using portal, it generally goes unnoticed unless someone played it as “entertaining” as Helseth, which normally gained much more positive review among spectators than this “OMG OP nerf” thread we get this day.

Dont you say, fam. If you have a mesm build balanced by itself and then u add portal/cs moa, it becomes broken. If you have an underperforming build but it can offer portal/cs moa, then its balanced.

Thing is, mesm is nice and balanced, and then you have portal/CS moa and mesm becomes broken.

Faux Play.6104:

lucadiro.4519:

Faux Play.6104:

lucadiro.4519:

You fought vs terribile thieves in this video.

Ranger is pretty much a hard counter for a thief in a duel, really shouldn’t die to one unless you get +1d.

So what does it change?
He said that “enormous amounts” of people ask to him how to fight thieves with Rangers and as answer he posted a video where he stomp only terribile thieves (in unranked and with silly matchup, take a look on scores).
I mean, a thief that insted of run away and +1 somewhere else engage him again with 1/3hp and get rekct by mail without Dodge, a D/D that did nothing other random steals and so on…

I find it hard to believe that rangers in sPvP have issues with thieves. A warrior, rev, or mesmer would all be harder 1v1 matchups for a power ranger.

Why are you replying him when your point has nothing to do with his?

Can you use skill names? :p

Because counterplay and balance? 80% of teef skills are already instacast, no need for more

robertjan.2197:

Pyriall.1683:

robertjan.2197:

Rolisteel.1375:

Random unknown people that main a class that have boss like survivability because of good defenses + mobility + high damage all together always think their class are well balanced.

My main is a DH, my second a Ele and my third a Thief. Trust me Mesmer is definitely not OP. You should just know how to counter it. In the beginning I lost a lot from Mesmers, now I am in most cases a step ahead. Just make sure you don’t run too much and take it easy on the skill use in case you cannot clear their conditions.

I just started a mesmer. After using tombs to hit 80 and speccing/gearing it for dire Condi, I am still losing from most Druids, Thiefs and DHs. It will take some time to learn the class.

(ALMOST) all classes can be strong, you just need to know how to play them

Do you care to duel a top tier Condi Mesmer to show us how to do it?

That’s just a stupid comparison. I am not a top tier player and talking about the fact that as you learn to play your class, there are many classes who are able to win from Mesmer. Of course not every time, but at a normal “balanced” rate…I am pretty sure however that a top tier DH and Thief could easily finish a Mesmer without issues 6/10 times.

Thieves totally win mesms 1v1 and mesms are only used for their 1v1 potential.

What we need is a personal and a team target. You could solve your problem plus a lot of other situations

Ragion.2831:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Corrupter’s Fervor and Adaptive Armor offer (up to) 20% dmg reduction.

O 10 stacks not 10%. Ok is there anything else?

Runes, and both condi cleanses and resistance are techincally condi dmg reductions, as they reduce the dmg from a previous attack.

Why ppl is still so dumb to pretend that power somewhat is more skillful/marginated than condi after discusing this over and over and over and refuting every argument over and over and over.

Razor.9872:

Ragion.2831:

lol you dont seem to get it, it not about who can one shot who. Neither is it about map awareness because that doesnt apply to what im talking about.

The question is what do you do as a mesmer if you get jumped and then one shotted by a thief you cannot see

Even a crit-backstab cannot 1-shot you — maybe take away 80%-90% of your health — but an auto or two is needed before you go down. Use that time to pop distortion and counter-attack.

Also, most thieves go in stealth by putting down a pistol 5. Watch/listen for that, and you will generally know when it is about to happen.

80/90%? Since when thief backstabs hit for 20k?

Xillllix.3485:

I have an idea, how about a condi cap,? Let’s say something like 25.

This cap is proly only realistically achieved rn in a nec vs nec environtment(and even then only sometimes), in which the one that gets 25+ bleeds dies, be it 25 or 40, so not sure its going to make any difference

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

1st I don’t thief. I’m a neutral 3rd party who’s interest is strictly game balance. Realize this b/c it’s a key fact.

No the mobility of thief isn’t a big enough advantage in today’s game to justify it’s ineptitude in 1v1’s and skirmishing. The only thing a thief can do in today’s game is Decaps/+1. A team can EASILY shut that down.

You are balancing based on the history of thief not what is presently available. It’s time to drop your bias and realize you really do not have a grasp on what you are talking about.

Thank You.

Maybe youre the one that fails to realize the actual thief state. Time to drop your dumb attitude.
Cheers.

Pretty much classic “I got nothing” response you put forth there.

Have a nice day

Funny thing, I justified it as much as yours, maybe you just failed to see that too tho

Crinn.7864:

Krysard.1364:

Question is, are condis unbalanced?

Class imbalance is created by the design of individual classes, not overarching mechanics.

Trying to pin imbalance on a single mechanic whos effectiveness varies wildly from class to class defies logic.

Well, this is the point i was trying to show o/

Shadowstep.6049:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

Except other classes have enough mobility in HoT to completely negate any attempt from thief to get any decaps. Also whole logic about thief shouldn’t be able to 1v1 because of mobility became moot when revs were introduced.

First of all, as I have said, talking about decaps is sooo dumb in an scenario where thief can properly 1v1. Also, u dont need to decap to take value of a thief pushing an empty node, you can just force someone to contest kt and then stealth and abuse better mobility.
Second, revs are still op, so using it as balance term is inapropiate. Also, thieves have still better mobility and disengage anyway, so if they could 1v1 they would be actually way better than revs cause better pick up, disengage and utility

Forum bug lulululul anet 2k16

Question is, are condis unbalanced?

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

With the introduction of HoT Thief mobility is no longer as game defining as it once was. In today’s game even a vigilant Necro can stop a decap on a lot of the maps. Let’s not even consider mesmers, rangers, engies, and revs……so your mobility argument is pretty moot tbh.

As for stuff with no counterplay….this game has been wrought with that for years. Look at my main class mesmer. Remember them in S1&2? Remember the cele ele? Remember Hambow? Remember 1/2 the kitten that’s been in the game since release?

You are talking about thieves in the past vs thieves in the present. I’ve noticed lots of baseless bias from players in this game like to think thieves are what they used to be when considering today’s balance. Heck even the Devs do this and it’s wrong to all these players who choose this class. Balance thief for today not yesterday.

Thief still has the best mobility, decapping is just a little part of what u can do. If thirf was a good dueler, he could just easily pick up favourable matches or avoid bad matchups/+1 abusing mobility, plus everything it can already do now. Focusing on decaps only is dumb if you can actually 1v1, and as thief you could easily force those 1v1s without any viable counterplay.

Sonata.1036:

I usually start in shiro with staff, using staff 5 to trigger traps and force stunbreaker, then use wait for second wave of traps, shiro dodge and hide behind obstacle with superspeed against their f1. Traps end, use PS and sword 2, UA to trigger dodges, swap to glint and dtaff 5. Usually there are dead. If not and they use f2 wait for it to end and finish off. But it takes about 20 sec. Is that ok?

Pretty solid tactic, and yes, killing a DH in ~20s is rly good, you cant expect any better in a 1v1. As I said, DHs are slow kills when they have all cds up

Sigmoid.7082:

Mikhael.2391:

I have issues with necro as it is a class that lacks A LOT but after talking and seeing other point of views, specially flow, i got in a g arena with him and duelled him a lot of times. i can say his builds works really well amd better than what i was using before, and feels a bit more confortable in wvw than in spvp. i advi e you to try the same, for what i know he s up for duels and so am i using his build with 1 or 2 changes that i prefer. I had to be proven wrong and i was, my build was more power pve oriented. This being said try a similar build that we use and then come back to say it isnt more confortable/better.

what was the build(s)?

Curses nec should do the trick most of the time

If they are in a rush, at least show it in a few secs so u can check it out after the stream. I know from where the complain is coming, and when the meta is changing, like now, its always nice to see whats being run.

Azukas.1426:

Krysard.1364:

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

I’m sorry but that makes no sense unless you are saying a thief can never 1v1.

From my understanding tricks daredevil are mandatory traitlines. Weapon swap is pretty much pointless to a thief mid fight.

Thieves are push overs atm

What im trying to say is, you cant make the best +1/disengage/mobility class a good 1v1er or it will be broken af cause lack of counterplay. If you want to be able to 1v1, you need to ask for buffs to builds that doesnt give you the best mobility or chasing potential ingame.
If you cant separate them, then not, thief shouldnt be able to 1v1 most of the time

You can learn to fight DHs using retri rev. Its generally worse, but way more forgiving against this kind of matchups that rely so much in CC like thieves/DHs. As for tips, play rly aggresive abusing your “immune” offensive cds like UA or surge of the mists to burn their deffensive cds. If you play aggresive enough you will win the cds race. If you play it safe, he will just heal over and over. DHs are a slow kill, so burtsing them doesnt mean to kill them in less than 10s, but rather making him waste all his cds and then burst him ezpz

Thief shouldnt be able to consistently 1v1 as long as he builds trick, DD and sb

Tweak the map a little and just make it a 1v1 queue where to mess around

Emapudapus.1307:

I would like for it that you can end it early by clicking on skill again. Specially if you run increase elixir duration, by that time it ends the enemy can have free roam (even if you only needed to avoid only 1 heavy hitting skill with it), so the enemy is benefiting from it too sometimes.

This would be so good actually

Hirasaki.6208:

In my experience after the last patch’s nerf…

Any non- revenant class with a player of comparable skill to yours > Revenant (you) > any class with with a lesser skilled player.

If you like winning, your better off on other classes. You can still win with Rev, I made it to Legend League using zerker hammer rev solo queue with 1 condi clear (invocation). It will just take you longer than say using a more PVP balanced class like Dragonhunter/Mesmer/Necromancer/Warrior/Druid/Engineer/Daredevil.

I didn’t put elementalist in there since I find Tempest as more of a support, by themselves they’re easy kill. Think of it as a healy non dps Rev that has tons of condi clear. Thieves will literally autoattack Tempest to death easy.

Obv you will lose 1v1 when u play a build based on zerg vs zerg

Yannir.4132:

Iain Ross.6903:

This is so wrong.

Care to elaborate?

You actually win against a lot of the matchups he said u wont or its 50/50, like warrs, retri revs, druids, engies, and u destroy things like fa ele or power mesm. Also, thieves counter you more than what he said.

ArthurDent.9538:

Spartacus.3192:

Krysard.1364:

Threat metter is imo a lil out of date. quite surr the first time i saw it was during retri meta, and some classes have been nerfed
Invo rev wins against power guards, condi revs, has a fair shot against warrs if u can negate f1s, loses against thief, wins power scrapper and druid, loses against mesms, wins against eles, and proly loses against condi necs, but nec builds are still being tested, so im not sure about this one

When I played condi rev (Glint/Mallyx) I beat most power invo revs I met in solo q. With the Retri nerf (dodge nerf) its probably a lot harder now.

I don’t think the changes affect this matchup much at all. Typically condi Rev shouldn’t be getting hit by any hard cc’s other than sotm which will be interrupted by eye for an eye most of the time any way. Naturalistic resonance nerf hurts malyx Rev resistance uptime which means basically nothing against power Rev.

Well, in my xp as invo rev, I always win against condi :p

Also, I’ve seen top tier revs trying this duel, and power rev won before the nerf, now even more, as its easier to trigger the taunt(yep, you can easy enough), and even if not your surge has a lower cd. Also, rite of the dwarf has increased cd, making it hard to trigger twice in most duels, which is important

You dont

Thief wins rev always, unless you run a ppwer creeped wvw build and manage to hit a PS and delete the thief. And even then its all on thiefs fault, so..

Threat metter is imo a lil out of date. quite surr the first time i saw it was during retri meta, and some classes have been nerfed
Invo rev wins against power guards, condi revs, has a fair shot against warrs if u can negate f1s, loses against thief, wins power scrapper and druid, loses against mesms, wins against eles, and proly loses against condi necs, but nec builds are still being tested, so im not sure about this one

It would actually make the skill rly strong. Not sure if unbalanced, but there are a few combos with other classes that sure as hell would hurt a lot…

Mikhael.2391:

BTW i think the topic creator is talking about WvW and so was i. Couldnt care less for spvp. no complains there since it doesnt seem appealing fighting with restraints.

Well, in WvW most builds work as long as you have proper gear/food cause everything is power creeped, so just build correctly around smth, get nice damage buffs and survivabilty skills and kill those plebs

flow.6043:

Krysard.1364:

I dont know a better kiting skill for strict 1v1s than wurm (obv not in an open field, my build is based in “pvp duels”). What are the alternatives?

but especially in 1v1s those alternative skills might allow you to not have to kite or escape in the first place.

I know, I actually use wurm for 1v1s very rarely, the build i posted was just a rly safe build against most matchups, and from there I said that u can swap skills according to each opponent ^^

Mikhael.2391:

Krysard.1364:

Mikhael.2391:

Krysard.1364:

Mikhael.2391:

How do you guys beat a druid with any of these builds? OR a thief? OR a warrior?

Thief nor druid should be able to kill you with traited CC plus correct positioning. For warrs swap spectral armor for Boon Corrupt and if you kite properly you should end by killing him(or at least have a fair chance)

So you cab kill druids and thiefs no problem? might add you aswell to see that.

First of all, I said you shouldnt die, after that killing the enemy may be more or less hard. Second, do as you please ^^

Im confused, you said that neither thief or druid should be able to kill necro with proper cc spec and correct positioning right? SO that means what? Necro has enough CC and mobility and low CDs to stay alive on a 1vs1 till they beat then or till necros run away?

By CC i meant Consume Conditions. Traited Consume conditions plus weakness spam allows for good sustain and heal outside of RS. By proper positioning i mean LoS to thief so he cant interrupt your heal or bristleback from druid for instance. Also you can use stab and go somewhere where thief cant steal and safely cast your heal there.
As long as you can proprly use your skills you should have enough sustain, and from there kill druids/thieves or at least stalemate them, as they have good reset also. You can also run Corrupt boon in order to condi burst druids after they use celestial and are out of condi clears, or rise shout plus on crit sigils for more consistent presure to the thief. There are a lot of tweaks that makes matchups more or less viable according to each one, my original build was just a rly safe build that should be able to stay alive against anything

Mikhael.2391:

Krysard.1364:

Mikhael.2391:

How do you guys beat a druid with any of these builds? OR a thief? OR a warrior?

Thief nor druid should be able to kill you with traited CC plus correct positioning. For warrs swap spectral armor for Boon Corrupt and if you kite properly you should end by killing him(or at least have a fair chance)

So you cab kill druids and thiefs no problem? might add you aswell to see that.

First of all, I said you shouldnt die, after that killing the enemy may be more or less hard. You can always swap smth if you feel like it like rats for safer casts against teefs.
Second, do as you please ^^

flow.6043:

Player > build.

Also, there’s no such thing as the best build at every 1v1.
Different matchups require different skills or traits.
For example, against warriors with a power build you need enough corrupts to deal with their stability and maybe Spectral Armor and/or Last Gasp to tank their bursts in Shroud. If they play a condi build you need things like Plague Signet, Plague Sending or Well of Power.
So most necro builds can be tweaked to deal with certain opponents more easily with just a few utility changes. The rest really is up to the player.

ps: for those who posted builds with Spec Walk and Flesh Wurm, those are “run away from noobs” roaming skills. In 1v1s there are almost always better alternatives.

I dont know a better kiting skill for strict 1v1s than wurm (obv not in an open field, my build is based in “pvp duels”). What are the alternatives?

Mikhael.2391:

How do you guys beat a druid with any of these builds? OR a thief? OR a warrior?

Thief nor druid should be able to kill you with traited CC plus correct positioning. For warrs swap spectral armor for Boon Corrupt and if you kite properly you should end by killing him(or at least have a fair chance)