Guild Wars 2

Rasimir.6239:

My lesson learned in this game is: play the content you enjoy, and the rewards will come.

That is also my philosophy and why I was so sad when they locked the legendary armor behind the raid.

Before, the end game reward was not tied to any game mode so you could freely do what you enjoy and ignore what you do not while still working toward whatever end game reward you like. Things have changed with HoT.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Oh really go try to buy the precursor to Chuka and Champawat, or HOPE, or Nevermore or Endeavor, or Shooshadoo again no options and buying a precursor on the TP is not an option for the other game modes not having options to Legendaries. So your argument is completely evacuated, there are no options besides Open World Pve for Legendary weapons even more so for the HoT weapons.

You really do not read/listen well do you?

OPTIONS to get the functionality of the legendary is what is discussed here.

You can buy any legendary weapon precursor you want and enjoy the functionality of it being a legendary. Only the HoT skins are locked behind the crafting collections, not the legendary weapon functionality.

You want a legendary staff? Do the part of the game you want and buy the Legend. Same for the short bow, the pistol, the axe and the shield. The skin is locked, but not the legendary property of the weapon. There is a HUGE difference. Read plz.

Again why should I have to buy it off the trade post and not be able to make it in any game mode I choose? Having to rely on another player to craft it or be willing to sell the precursor? It still doesn’t change the fact that all Legendary weapons are exclusively locked behind Open World Pve. Learn to read and you said again you can get any legendary from the TP I pointed out you cannot, yes you can get the functionality but Legendary is more than the Functionality, guess what nothing is stopping you in game from getting the Envoy armor besides yourself so you always have the Option to do Raids and work towards it.

I did read what you said, but it was beside the point being made was the problem. It still is.

What was asked was OPTIONS to get the legendary functionality. ANY options, including other game modes requiring many players or not. It is utterly beside the point being made that you can or not make it via crafting method in any game mode. All that is asked for is that at least ONE other option for a legendary armor exist. That is all. Not unreasonable at all.

EVERY other legendary offer more than one game mode option to get the functionality. Armor doesn’t.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Oh really go try to buy the precursor to Chuka and Champawat, or HOPE, or Nevermore or Endeavor, or Shooshadoo again no options and buying a precursor on the TP is not an option for the other game modes not having options to Legendaries. So your argument is completely evacuated, there are no options besides Open World Pve for Legendary weapons even more so for the HoT weapons.

You really do not read/listen well do you?

OPTIONS to get the functionality of the legendary is what is discussed here.

You can buy any legendary weapon precursor you want and enjoy the functionality of it being a legendary. Only the HoT skins are locked behind the crafting collections, not the legendary weapon functionality.

You want a legendary staff? Do the part of the game you want and buy the Legend. Same for the short bow, the pistol, the axe and the shield. The skin is locked, but not the legendary property of the weapon. There is a HUGE difference. Read plz.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Linken.6345:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

vesica tempestas.1563:

conanq.6249:

To be clear, this is not about skins. Please don’t conflate the issue with that aspect.

So, one thing that has concerned(?) me for a while is the utility aspect of legendary armor. The ability to swap stats, without having to go back to the mystic forge, or craft another set, but while you are playing (out of combat obviously). This is a clear advantage in convenience, over all other armor.

But I hear you say, it’s not a big deal, because you’ll still have to swap runes! Two points:

1. If it’s not a big deal then it doesn’t matter if non raid armors have this ability, does it? Because all you guys care about is the skins right? We’ll never change runes anyway because it’s too expensive is the classic comment.
2. What happens when ANet finally get around to solving the rune issue?

Since these armors are currently just prestige items, and skins are the only thing that matters (cause that’s what I’m always told), the armors other feature – i.e. it’s utility function – should not be locked away in raids.

Why does only that game mode get this utility?

the stat swap is the perk of legendary items. Your trying to make this into an issue for raiding when its not related – raiding is merely another source of legendary items (although i believe legendary armor should be achievable by other means.

Only if they give Legendary Weapons through Other means. Right now each game mode sans WvW has at least 1 Legendary exclusive to it, with open world Pve having the biggest monopoly.

Well anyone can do open world pve solo you dont have to relly on 9 other people to be able to make your legendary.

So what about pvp and Fotm Legendaries that relies on 4 other players per completion to even get those. Just saying this isn’t the first Legendary to require more than just yourself.

It is fine to have exclusive Legendaries to gamemodes, if they open up one Legendary to different game modes they have to do the same for the others.

It is fine to get an exclusive skin but the utility function should be available through other game mode.

Your comparison to open world pve is plain ridiculous to be honest. Hardly anyone like map completion, but its hardly a lock for anyone and you have 100% control over doing it. It’s inevitable you will get there and you do not have to wait for anyone to start or dictate the pace.

Other than map completion, you can get anything out of any other game mode for a legendary weapon and the legendary back-pack is achievable through PVP and Fractal and eventually WvW too. The point is you have options to get there where as for the armor its raid or GTFO.

I can enjoy a raid here and there but at the pace I can do them (10 ppl is a major factor in accessibility in time and space), I won’t have the armor before GW3 come out because of the LI prerequisite.

Oh really I can do just pvp or WvW to do the precursor crafting? What about for the HoT Legendaries that requires more than just Map completion. It isn’t a ridiculous comparison, Legendary weapons are exclusive to open world PvE, and like I said Armor isn’t the first legendary to require the team work of other i.e. legendary back require other people to succeed and get them. And you say eventually WvW for a legendary backpiece? No Dev has stated as such and no hint otherwise so until it’s in game I won’t believe you there.

As far as I know, the precursor can be bought on TP… I bought all 9 legendary precursor I have and actually never made the one I had as a drop (Sunrise).

Your argument completely evacuate the point I bring forth: you have more than one options in game mode for all other legendary. All, save armor.

That you require more than one player in other game mode is not a counter to this. Many would be glad to get armor in raid and fractals even if they both require many players to play the game mode. OPTIONS is the key word. OPTIONS.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Linken.6345:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

vesica tempestas.1563:

conanq.6249:

To be clear, this is not about skins. Please don’t conflate the issue with that aspect.

So, one thing that has concerned(?) me for a while is the utility aspect of legendary armor. The ability to swap stats, without having to go back to the mystic forge, or craft another set, but while you are playing (out of combat obviously). This is a clear advantage in convenience, over all other armor.

But I hear you say, it’s not a big deal, because you’ll still have to swap runes! Two points:

1. If it’s not a big deal then it doesn’t matter if non raid armors have this ability, does it? Because all you guys care about is the skins right? We’ll never change runes anyway because it’s too expensive is the classic comment.
2. What happens when ANet finally get around to solving the rune issue?

Since these armors are currently just prestige items, and skins are the only thing that matters (cause that’s what I’m always told), the armors other feature – i.e. it’s utility function – should not be locked away in raids.

Why does only that game mode get this utility?

the stat swap is the perk of legendary items. Your trying to make this into an issue for raiding when its not related – raiding is merely another source of legendary items (although i believe legendary armor should be achievable by other means.

Only if they give Legendary Weapons through Other means. Right now each game mode sans WvW has at least 1 Legendary exclusive to it, with open world Pve having the biggest monopoly.

Well anyone can do open world pve solo you dont have to relly on 9 other people to be able to make your legendary.

So what about pvp and Fotm Legendaries that relies on 4 other players per completion to even get those. Just saying this isn’t the first Legendary to require more than just yourself.

It is fine to have exclusive Legendaries to gamemodes, if they open up one Legendary to different game modes they have to do the same for the others.

It is fine to get an exclusive skin but the utility function should be available through other game mode.

Your comparison to open world pve is plain ridiculous to be honest. Hardly anyone like map completion, but its hardly a lock for anyone and you have 100% control over doing it. It’s inevitable you will get there and you do not have to wait for anyone to start or dictate the pace.

Other than map completion, you can get anything out of any other game mode for a legendary weapon and the legendary back-pack is achievable through PVP and Fractal and eventually WvW too. The point is you have options to get there where as for the armor its raid or GTFO.

I can enjoy a raid here and there but at the pace I can do them (10 ppl is a major factor in accessibility in time and space), I won’t have the armor before GW3 come out because of the LI prerequisite.

Rashy.4165:

When I first started raiding, I had only a small amount of experience. 2 VG kills with a guild that did training raids for my casual guild at the time. After a while, I took a long break because I was overwhelmed by the amount of content in HoT and also disappointed that I didn’t have a regular group to raid with.

Fast forward 6 months, and some of the initial issues still existed. My main concern now though, was “what if I wasn’t good enough?” I knew I was a decent player, capable of doing T4 fractals with ease even as a squishy class, but I didn’t know how well that’d transfer to raids. I also still didn’t have access to a guild or group that was willing to give me the time to practice. I practically had to beg one particular guild (most of them split off from my casual guild to form a WvW/Raiding focused guild), but they wouldn’t take me because I didn’t have experience, even after I assured them that all I needed was a quick exposure to mechanics to pick things up.

Eventually, I found a guild. A very friendly group of players who ran regular training raids. Two weeks with them on Sabetha, VG, and Sloth/Trio, and I knew without a doubt that I could hold my own with an average group. It didn’t take me much longer to get other boss kills too, and I got my first Matthias kill at around 18-20 insights.

Within about 3 weeks, the guild I had begged to give me a chance started inviting me regularly to their static runs. I don’t play too many professions, but I do play Thief, Revenant, Elementalist, all at an average or above average level, and am beginning to dip my toes into Chronomancer and tanking. PS Warrior, Dragonhunter, and Druid are high on the list of classes I want to gear and learn to play.

TL;DR – my fear was mainly under-performing. Once I got a group that was forgiving of mistakes, I learned the necessary things to perform at an adequate level, and eventually picked up on the more important roles.

Could you send an invite for me to join your guild? Getting an active raid guild was always the problem for me.

Almost all of the LI’s I got are from random pug groups because the guilds I joined almost all ended-up falling out of synch with my schedule or just stopped doing them…

If you have a good guild that accept serious players that still learn some encounters I’m more than willing. I’m all ascended and legendary and has one of each with 6k+ hours on my tempest.

DZx.4927:

Crystal Reid.2481:

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Honestly I think the issue is not so much about the difficulty of the encounter or finding people, but rather the “casual” mentality that permeates the gw2 community. The fact of the matter is, the majority of the people on gw2 aren’t looking for a challenge, they don’t want to spend any effort on learning fights, mechanics or builds or any of that. The majority here want to jump in on something with no preparation or coordination and get out as fast as possible.

For those who say finding 10 ppl to raid is what’s holding you back – have you tried keeping LFG open for 5min? I’ve cleared every boss every week for the past 4 months by joining the first group that poped up doing the boss/wings I needed. I never had to wait longer than a pvp match wait to get a group, even in the deadest hours at night. Now if you have issues working with strangers, that’s a whole different ball game.

Believe me, I’ve spent far more than meager 5 min on that every time and my results have been FAR less impressive than yours. I mean, kitten , if I had anything close to what you describe I wouldn’t waste my time bringing it here.

People really have to stop thinking their own little anecdotes matters when it comes to inference. I’m glad for you, really, but what you describe is simply not coming even far from what I experiment. Just be glad instead of trying to paint others in in bad light without even having a clue about them.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

This is by FAR the biggest accessibility issue that I’m aware of but I really don’t know how you guys can tackle this when the entire content is 10 players based and the build requirement more restrictive than anything else.

Guild groups is a possible solution, but after going through so many I can tell you its FAR from so easy to get the right one for you and your time frame. People who have a good and stable guild group for raid probably do not realize this.

Rhiannon.1726:

@Sirbeaumerdier.3740
I’m confused. My post isn’t directed at you nor at anyone else specifically. I just wrote generally about my feeling about the topic.

But to answer your point about the legendary armor:
You have currently two ways to get a legendary back piece -> fractals and pvp.
You have currently only one way to get a legendary armor (at least when Anet finishes it). I’d be more than happy if we would get another legendary armor via pvp, wvw, fractals or something else entirely.

Sorry about how I came at you.

I think providing one more option to get a legendary armor would go a long way for a lot of people. However, looking at how long it is to get even one…

Wazzouf.2748:

Because raiding is not for the faint of heart… it’s a world full of rage, elitism and drama. It’s the hardest content in the game and if you’re bad you must understand that you will get yelled at. If you can stay alive and avoid stuff you’ll be just fine.

Actually, it’s not really hard in itself. What IS hard is getting a group that knows what they have to do within the time frame you can play.

Fighting a human opponent (PvP or WvW) requires more skills than anything the raid ask out of any player.

Rhiannon.1726:

If you don’t like raids just don’t do them. I don’t like Arah, so I don’t do it.

When you don’t like them the only reasons to do them anyway are the legendary armor and the story:
-> You can experience the story without killing the bosses
-> You can’t get The Ascension when you don’t pvp
-> You can’t get the fractal backpack or fractal weapons when you don’t do fractals
-> You can’t get the legendary armor when you don’t raid

As far as I know most games handle special skins/gear like that -> do x to get y.
So I don’t see a problem there. Of course it would be absolutely ok if we get another legendary armor through pvp, fractals, wvw…, but currently we don’t even have one finished.

When you like raids what stops you doing them?
Time? Afraid of pugs? Other reasons?

Time:
To kill all bosses you need time. You also need time (and skill) if you want to reach “Legendary” in a pvp league. If you don’t have much time just don’t expect to achieve the same like people with much more time. As you don’t aim for “Legendary” in pvp just don’t aim to kill Matthias or Xera right away when you don’t have the time to play often.

Afraid of pugs?
I’m tired of reading posts about “elitist” raiders. I just raid casually with guildies or pugs and so far I haven’t met these so called “elitists” and I’m definitely not one myself.
I’m sure they exist, but you can avoid them (or at least most of them), if you don’t join “spam 150+ LIs, KP, 1 fail=kick” groups.
I watched the lfg on the weekend and there are lots of training runs for beginners and groups that ask for 1-50 LIs. Hardly any group asks to ping gear.

Recently I joined an “escort training” group as I was in the mood of helping others. The group had experienced and inexperienced people and “first timers”. McLeod was dead ca. 30 min after joining them. The atmosphere in ts was awesome. Everyone was happy, especially the “first timers” who killed their first raid boss. I still enjoy the feeling of the “first kill”, even if it’s not my first kill -> I’m just happy for the others .

If you don’t want to pug you can join a raid training guild. I’m sure there are nice and helpful people in such guilds.

Other reasons?
I can’t think of anything else.

You avoided the entirety of my point.

You can’t get the Ascension if you do not PvP. That much is true. However, you CAN get a legendary back piece by never doing any PvP. The legendary armor? Nope.

It’s not just the skin that is locked, it’s the quality of life aspect of the legendary that is locked behind the raid.

The armor IS the only legendary piece that offers ZERO alternatives to the players. None.

THAT is bad and what makes reasoning of the type “you don’t like it, don’t do it” pretty weak considering it’s doesn’t just involve the raid content itself (that you may not like) but a type of reward (that is the motivation to inflict yourself a content you despise so much).

zealex.9410:

They are not afraid… ts ctually much easier to say raids are hard and complain about it rather than actually sacrifice some time studying the encounter builds rotations etc. to be able to do the raids. Theres also the fact that training guild are not the easiest thing to come by but again ppl prefer complaining rather than go through the effort of finding a guild group.

That is a pretty unfair response considering a lot of replies given.

If I was to channel what you said here, I would say its easier to brush aside what others have said only to replace everything with what you pretend was said rather than going through the effort of offering a response that actually seek to address what has been said and was a valid and legitimate reply.

Mag → SoR → DH

Since this has been necroed, I’ll simply repeat that the only real problem with the raid is the legendary armor functionality locked behind it.

Make it available elsewhere (not the skin, just the stat picking functionality) and, yes, a lot of people could easily ignore raids if its really uninteresting content for them. Or, like me, really dislike having to spend far more time on logistics than game play.

Asking players to ignore the reward is different then asking them to ignore the raid content itself.

MrJefferson.1704:

reserved for editing…

I can only applaud any who persevere with the zerk staff life. Its my life too after all.

That being said, if I continue to use my zerk staff in wvw for all you can do in that game mode, I’ve stop trying to bring it in structured PvP.

Not because its bad but because people are so deeply conditioned to perceive the build negatively that any bad result in the game is likely going to put on your back. You are sure to be the perfect scapegoat no matter if factually legitimate or not.

In short, its no longer worth it to me to play it in PvP and the meta build is so pathetically brainless and riskless that I do not enjoy playing it. Therefore, I almost no longer play in pvp nowadays.

Zero.6592:

Actually I like the current system. The only thing that seems to frustrate players, is that players think they can’t progress to a higher pip-tier due to their MMR.

So how can this issue be solved?

In principal it is easy, but metrically it can be a bit of a challenge. I would suggest putting the following mechanic in place:

1) The most important part is too tie MMR to a certain pip tier. People with high MMR would that way have a much easier time climbing to a high tier. Players who still need to prove themselves should naturally need to spend more time on their rise. This can be done in one of two ways imo, and I clearly favor one of them (the latter I will mention):

- Technically, a way to implement this is by giving people with MMR that belongs in legendary for example, slightly beneficial matches (in MMR terms) until they actually arrive there. However, this still doesn’t really show the impact of their MMR. Also, this could make things a bit too hard for newer players.

- A much better way to do this, would be to still tie MMR to some respective tier, and if players win while they are below their respective tier, they will get a MMR-bonus. The bigger the distance between the pip-tier that the MMR assigns to player to and their actual tier, the bigger the actual bonus. So for example, a player who according to MMR belongs in Legendary, will get like 8 bonus pips for a win in Emerald. There should be a clear indication that they get this bonus for being skilled! But a player Whose MMR says the player belongs in Sapphire would get maybe 1 bonus pip for a win in Emerald, conditional on that the win must be made with 200-250 points difference. This way people will actually feel super rewarded for having high MMR, and people with low MMR will still be able to progress normally.

There is one more thing that should be added to this system. Because what if MMR is low and the match-up is more likely to lead to a loss (lets say odds are 40-60 against), but the player manages to get a win anyway. It would now be silly to give bonus pips for that too, as bonus pips are given to HIGH MMR not to LOW MMR. Instead, they could get an “Impressive victory!!” Award. This could be something that for example gives some sort of chest, or reward track progression. Also, the player will know that there may have been only slight pip progression, but significant MMR progression.

Let me know what you think.

Oh please. A bit more caviar while we are at it? I can’t believe I’m reading this.

If you are good, show it and let the results speak for themselves. Do not expect free rides because of a metric that is inherently worthless on an individual scale. You are good because you play well at that game, not because you have a high MMR. Whether you like it or not, there is a difference between being on a winning team and being good.

R O C.6574:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ayrilana.1396:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

R O C.6574:

Please Anet, I’m having trouble winning @ PVP. Can you nerf all the classes that beat me, ‘cause i’m really good and if i’m losing, it must be because the other classes are OP.

/sarcasm

Sure, all builds are equal. No need to balance properly.

/sarcasm

It’s near impossible to balance all builds to be equal.

I think between what we have and perfect balance exist plenty of room for improvement that is all too possible to achieve.

LOL

It wouldn’t matter. Once you think balance is in a good place, someone will start whining that your class is OP. This has been happening over and over. It’s what happens when you treat irrational qq like a rational request.

I guess my point was, there are rational complaints. Not everyone of them are purely egocentric. Some do make sense and deserve attention based on logic.

Beside, I do see a lot of the opposite too: " don’t nerf me, I enjoy my easy success". There is QQ for sure but also a lot of counter QQ too to oppose valid complaints regarding absurdly forgiving builds that sacrifice nothing to get what it gets.

Ayrilana.1396:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

R O C.6574:

Please Anet, I’m having trouble winning @ PVP. Can you nerf all the classes that beat me, ‘cause i’m really good and if i’m losing, it must be because the other classes are OP.

/sarcasm

Sure, all builds are equal. No need to balance properly.

/sarcasm

It’s near impossible to balance all builds to be equal.

I think between what we have and perfect balance exist plenty of room for improvement that is all too possible to achieve.

R O C.6574:

Please Anet, I’m having trouble winning @ PVP. Can you nerf all the classes that beat me, ‘cause i’m really good and if i’m losing, it must be because the other classes are OP.

/sarcasm

Sure, all builds are equal. No need to balance properly.

/sarcasm

Justine.6351:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Justine.6351:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Justine.6351:

MidoriMarch.8067:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Swagger.1459:

Gibimo.2193:

Swagger.1459:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rotteny.8743:

Justine.6351:

ya as op as druid is made out to be (it is pretty amazing) I still see fair representation of all classes when in wvw. I find it hard to believe that many people are so proper about not rushing to pickup the next op thing. If druid was so op it just had to be nerfed hard trust me, there would be like a 5-1 ratio of them in wvw because that’s probably the ratio of people who have no shame when it comes to winning.

That’s because druids are only strong in small scale and most of the people are just here for the blobs and ppt.

And these are the people that come to complain about dying to druids.
“I died to a dueling build on my staff ele, please nerf”

Easy now, was just about to post that. Yesterday I got my pixels beat up by a thief, while fighting a RANGER too, on my staff ele build.

It’s not fair that the thief can stealth over and over and over, while eles don’t have any reveal and their staff skills are so slow. Where is my ele version of double 10k vaults hmm? Am I expected to run DD for another 4 years to be even remotely competitive? Where are my stealth skills? Can’t even make use of runes of the trapper because we don’t have traps… Why is it that thief gets ultimate stealth PLUS ultimate mobility PLUS ultimate burst PLUS have access to make these super condi builds that melt you? Eles have low hp too so why don’t eles have similar movement skills to run away better? Where is my ele condi bomb build so I can laugh at my opponent frantically trying to run away while their hp are ticking out?

Speaking of condi, where are all my super condi clears? It’s not like the meta hasn’t been all about the condi for a long time… Would stand to reason that eles should get equivalent condi clears to other classes like necro and guardian and warrior and druid, and go into stealth like thief while removing condi too lol… It’s not right that thief can just layer stealth plus condi over and over and over while I’m standing there unable to clear or run properly…

And through the whole fight the druid was nothing more than an annoyance, it took the thief to kill me… Go figure… Nerf OP thief.

Edit- and the Druid was running that supposed “cheese op” builds people are complaining about too.

I checked, “See all messages by Swagger.1459”
because I remember saw you lot of times in the ranger forum before.
Do not disguise your self to ele fellow ranger, don’t try any dirty tricks.

I have one of each profession and that’s a true story. Thief OP, Ranger UP.

Still main Ranger and that won’t change, but I have to be honest.

I also have one of each and I can’t agree with meta wvw druid being UP. It’s plain kittened to say that considering they have all a cele d/d ele has but better and an easy access to stealth + a pet.

It’s not because other builds can do well vs that build that it isn’t overall over-performing. When you take in what is sacrifice and what is gained relative to what other can sacrifice and gain for the same sacrifice, it’s pretty kitten cheesy.

It sacrifices a crap ton of personal damage for sustain. That’s a big part of why it does so poorly outside of 1v1’s.

More than a cele d/d ele?

Cele ele was dominating before the HoT power creep. It was basically on par with current builds when everything else was significantly weaker.

Sure but you do realize you do all they ever did but better on every aspect and then add stealth and a pet?

Stealth is probably what makes it too much in WvW to be fair. In pvp stealth is no problem but in WvW it’s enough to break a lot. It’s just too easy to get away from situations anybody else would have died long ago whwn you have so many ways to evade death and pursuit. The only way to defeat a druid in WvW is massive cc chains. If you can’t pull that along with the required damage spike just go home, you loose your time.

If you are that hard to threaten, it should not be that easy to be a threat to others. Druids do WAY too good damage for their level of defense. Yes, I agree the HoT power-creep is largely to blame and that druid are not alone to drip cheese like that but it is what it is.

BTW, I did the same discourse for other builds including the cele ele back then. It’s not a case of nerf all but me or nerf all that kill me. It’s a case of do a better job at balance.

^

trust me people like jim hunter or justine only mained druid and obviously havent played other class

Lolwhat?

My first was a warrior, second a mesmer (was main), 3rd a new warrior (was main), 4th ranger (was main), fifth is rev(new main).

Not sure why I got to prove anything, I agree celestial shadow needs to be changed. Everything else? Those are the things that make for good roamers. They are used on other roamers, they are used on druids and if they didn’t exist on druids they would be more apparent on those other classes and zerglings would be crying about them instead. L2p or go hide in a zerg or tower and leave roaming to roamers who know how to build a roamer and play like one.

If they tone down the access to stealth I agree it would go along way to help re-balance.

Juts remove the stealth on celestial shadow and give something else instead and call it “celestial [something else]” instead. Why always more stealth ANET…

I’m thinking the noobs crying would benefit more from celestial shadow competing with ancient seeds as a grand master trait. Cause you know these are the same people who can’t figure out how to get out of roots that die to a mean glare or are rendered useless by all the reduction/removal of immobilize given freely to everyone that has the sense to use them. I’m surprised we haven’t seen “black hole op perma immobilize” type threads. Of course that would require them to actually know about the skills a druid has.

Funny how the 2 people that know about druid traits recommended the same thing at the same time.

Inb4 some zergling cries about how rangers would still be op

Everything about rangers and druids is op. That’s why you, I and 95% of the player base will only ever play this class cause we are skill-less noobs carried by an easy to play class.

2k range
15-20k rapid fire
100k barrage
perma stealth
perma protection/dmg reduction/ dmg immunity
evade chaining
blocking
10k laser beams
one shot f2 x 2
15k mauls
perma super speed
0% to 100% heals instantly every 10sec
probably more stuff
and more stuff
oh and that op thing too

don’t know why I put druid aside, oh I suppose it had something to do with all the bunker builds face tanking me on glass gear stat, yay block-spam dragon hunter, reflect-invulnerable scrapper, reflect-invulnerable tempest, regen/stance king berserker, block-invulnerable chronomancer, health bar-swapping reaper, evade-chain daredevil and I suppose dueling revenants.

Nothing else can come close to competing with druid leetness though. The only thing truly holding druids back from god-mode is flying pets that we can mount and ride around. Of course we don’t have flying pets but in the mind of the non-druids we do because lol fire wyrven.

Can you tone down the ridiculous staw men? I mean, come on, reply to what has been factually said on the other side of the fence instead of replying to what you pretend the they said.

I know Puck is not a new player so I have zero reasons to doubt his skill. I was making an argument using comparison between builds. If you disagree with it lets see your arguments instead of referring to all naysayers as “noob crying” or stuff like that.

Justine.6351:

MidoriMarch.8067:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Swagger.1459:

Gibimo.2193:

Swagger.1459:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rotteny.8743:

Justine.6351:

ya as op as druid is made out to be (it is pretty amazing) I still see fair representation of all classes when in wvw. I find it hard to believe that many people are so proper about not rushing to pickup the next op thing. If druid was so op it just had to be nerfed hard trust me, there would be like a 5-1 ratio of them in wvw because that’s probably the ratio of people who have no shame when it comes to winning.

That’s because druids are only strong in small scale and most of the people are just here for the blobs and ppt.

And these are the people that come to complain about dying to druids.
“I died to a dueling build on my staff ele, please nerf”

Easy now, was just about to post that. Yesterday I got my pixels beat up by a thief, while fighting a RANGER too, on my staff ele build.

It’s not fair that the thief can stealth over and over and over, while eles don’t have any reveal and their staff skills are so slow. Where is my ele version of double 10k vaults hmm? Am I expected to run DD for another 4 years to be even remotely competitive? Where are my stealth skills? Can’t even make use of runes of the trapper because we don’t have traps… Why is it that thief gets ultimate stealth PLUS ultimate mobility PLUS ultimate burst PLUS have access to make these super condi builds that melt you? Eles have low hp too so why don’t eles have similar movement skills to run away better? Where is my ele condi bomb build so I can laugh at my opponent frantically trying to run away while their hp are ticking out?

Speaking of condi, where are all my super condi clears? It’s not like the meta hasn’t been all about the condi for a long time… Would stand to reason that eles should get equivalent condi clears to other classes like necro and guardian and warrior and druid, and go into stealth like thief while removing condi too lol… It’s not right that thief can just layer stealth plus condi over and over and over while I’m standing there unable to clear or run properly…

And through the whole fight the druid was nothing more than an annoyance, it took the thief to kill me… Go figure… Nerf OP thief.

Edit- and the Druid was running that supposed “cheese op” builds people are complaining about too.

I checked, “See all messages by Swagger.1459”
because I remember saw you lot of times in the ranger forum before.
Do not disguise your self to ele fellow ranger, don’t try any dirty tricks.

I have one of each profession and that’s a true story. Thief OP, Ranger UP.

Still main Ranger and that won’t change, but I have to be honest.

I also have one of each and I can’t agree with meta wvw druid being UP. It’s plain kittened to say that considering they have all a cele d/d ele has but better and an easy access to stealth + a pet.

It’s not because other builds can do well vs that build that it isn’t overall over-performing. When you take in what is sacrifice and what is gained relative to what other can sacrifice and gain for the same sacrifice, it’s pretty kitten cheesy.

It sacrifices a crap ton of personal damage for sustain. That’s a big part of why it does so poorly outside of 1v1’s.

More than a cele d/d ele?

Cele ele was dominating before the HoT power creep. It was basically on par with current builds when everything else was significantly weaker.

Sure but you do realize you do all they ever did but better on every aspect and then add stealth and a pet?

Stealth is probably what makes it too much in WvW to be fair. In pvp stealth is no problem but in WvW it’s enough to break a lot. It’s just too easy to get away from situations anybody else would have died long ago whwn you have so many ways to evade death and pursuit. The only way to defeat a druid in WvW is massive cc chains. If you can’t pull that along with the required damage spike just go home, you loose your time.

If you are that hard to threaten, it should not be that easy to be a threat to others. Druids do WAY too good damage for their level of defense. Yes, I agree the HoT power-creep is largely to blame and that druid are not alone to drip cheese like that but it is what it is.

BTW, I did the same discourse for other builds including the cele ele back then. It’s not a case of nerf all but me or nerf all that kill me. It’s a case of do a better job at balance.

^

trust me people like jim hunter or justine only mained druid and obviously havent played other class

Lolwhat?

My first was a warrior, second a mesmer (was main), 3rd a new warrior (was main), 4th ranger (was main), fifth is rev(new main).

Not sure why I got to prove anything, I agree celestial shadow needs to be changed. Everything else? Those are the things that make for good roamers. They are used on other roamers, they are used on druids and if they didn’t exist on druids they would be more apparent on those other classes and zerglings would be crying about them instead. L2p or go hide in a zerg or tower and leave roaming to roamers who know how to build a roamer and play like one.

If they tone down the access to stealth I agree it would go along way to help re-balance.

Juts remove the stealth on celestial shadow and give something else instead and call it “celestial [something else]” instead. Why always more stealth ANET…

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Swagger.1459:

Gibimo.2193:

Swagger.1459:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rotteny.8743:

Justine.6351:

ya as op as druid is made out to be (it is pretty amazing) I still see fair representation of all classes when in wvw. I find it hard to believe that many people are so proper about not rushing to pickup the next op thing. If druid was so op it just had to be nerfed hard trust me, there would be like a 5-1 ratio of them in wvw because that’s probably the ratio of people who have no shame when it comes to winning.

That’s because druids are only strong in small scale and most of the people are just here for the blobs and ppt.

And these are the people that come to complain about dying to druids.
“I died to a dueling build on my staff ele, please nerf”

Easy now, was just about to post that. Yesterday I got my pixels beat up by a thief, while fighting a RANGER too, on my staff ele build.

It’s not fair that the thief can stealth over and over and over, while eles don’t have any reveal and their staff skills are so slow. Where is my ele version of double 10k vaults hmm? Am I expected to run DD for another 4 years to be even remotely competitive? Where are my stealth skills? Can’t even make use of runes of the trapper because we don’t have traps… Why is it that thief gets ultimate stealth PLUS ultimate mobility PLUS ultimate burst PLUS have access to make these super condi builds that melt you? Eles have low hp too so why don’t eles have similar movement skills to run away better? Where is my ele condi bomb build so I can laugh at my opponent frantically trying to run away while their hp are ticking out?

Speaking of condi, where are all my super condi clears? It’s not like the meta hasn’t been all about the condi for a long time… Would stand to reason that eles should get equivalent condi clears to other classes like necro and guardian and warrior and druid, and go into stealth like thief while removing condi too lol… It’s not right that thief can just layer stealth plus condi over and over and over while I’m standing there unable to clear or run properly…

And through the whole fight the druid was nothing more than an annoyance, it took the thief to kill me… Go figure… Nerf OP thief.

Edit- and the Druid was running that supposed “cheese op” builds people are complaining about too.

I checked, “See all messages by Swagger.1459”
because I remember saw you lot of times in the ranger forum before.
Do not disguise your self to ele fellow ranger, don’t try any dirty tricks.

I have one of each profession and that’s a true story. Thief OP, Ranger UP.

Still main Ranger and that won’t change, but I have to be honest.

I also have one of each and I can’t agree with meta wvw druid being UP. It’s plain kittened to say that considering they have all a cele d/d ele has but better and an easy access to stealth + a pet.

It’s not because other builds can do well vs that build that it isn’t overall over-performing. When you take in what is sacrifice and what is gained relative to what other can sacrifice and gain for the same sacrifice, it’s pretty kitten cheesy.

It sacrifices a crap ton of personal damage for sustain. That’s a big part of why it does so poorly outside of 1v1’s.

More than a cele d/d ele?

Cele ele was dominating before the HoT power creep. It was basically on par with current builds when everything else was significantly weaker.

Sure but you do realize you do all they ever did but better on every aspect and then add stealth and a pet?

Stealth is probably what makes it too much in WvW to be fair. In pvp stealth is no problem but in WvW it’s enough to break a lot. It’s just too easy to get away from situations anybody else would have died long ago whwn you have so many ways to evade death and pursuit. The only way to defeat a druid in WvW is massive cc chains. If you can’t pull that along with the required damage spike just go home, you loose your time.

If you are that hard to threaten, it should not be that easy to be a threat to others. Druids do WAY too good damage for their level of defense. Yes, I agree the HoT power-creep is largely to blame and that druid are not alone to drip cheese like that but it is what it is.

BTW, I did the same discourse for other builds including the cele ele back then. It’s not a case of nerf all but me or nerf all that kill me. It’s a case of do a better job at balance.

The pet isn’t a bonus, it’s a liability. The damage from cele ele came from the ele, it could properly time its bursts. The druid build relies on the pets for the bulk of its damage, (another reason it scales so poorly.) It’s also the reason it does poorly against a smart condi player. The ranger can use shouts to clear a few condi’s off their pet if they are using trooper runes but druidic clarity does nothing for them. The pets go down quick completely neutering the rangers dps, might, and quickness stacking.

What they really have over the old cele ele is stealth and slightly better mobility. But the cele ele didn’t have to rely on poor pet ai, they had the benefit of mixing in offensive condi’s and they were harder to cc lock.

So all things considered I’d say they are roughly equal to the old cele ele which might have made them op pre HoT, but now it only makes them strong in a 1v1 and exponentially weaker as more people are added to the fight.

The pet can be a liability but it’s definitely not just that most of the time. You aren’t in a dungeon. It provides good damage and used properly is a source of obstruction for others that can force attacks to be divided between the ranger and itself for reasons you yourself highlighted.

As for the damage, it also still come from the ranger too even if it’s true that the pet is the main source. That ridiculous staff auto-attack (I refuse to play that with my ranger so much I hate it) is quite potent in range, healing and damage too. You definitely do not see it as something irrelevant when you run squishy believe me.

What you have over the d/d cele is not just the stealth (a very huge advantage by itself in wvw) and better mobility (not just a little better btw since ancestral grace is 15 sec CD vs RTL 20 sec if you hit and 40 sec if you missed + you have the GS swoop at 12 sec CD vs FGS that has 180 sec CD with near perma swiftness if not outright perma). You also have a basic medium armor and life pool as opposed to low for the ele in both and as much access to protection and regen, more healing and more condi cleanse.

It’s not equal, it’s outright better in all ways and then you add stealth and a pet… You say it makes you only strong in small scale, but that was also the case of the cele d/d ele and it was still dripping cheese silly.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Swagger.1459:

Gibimo.2193:

Swagger.1459:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rotteny.8743:

Justine.6351:

ya as op as druid is made out to be (it is pretty amazing) I still see fair representation of all classes when in wvw. I find it hard to believe that many people are so proper about not rushing to pickup the next op thing. If druid was so op it just had to be nerfed hard trust me, there would be like a 5-1 ratio of them in wvw because that’s probably the ratio of people who have no shame when it comes to winning.

That’s because druids are only strong in small scale and most of the people are just here for the blobs and ppt.

And these are the people that come to complain about dying to druids.
“I died to a dueling build on my staff ele, please nerf”

Easy now, was just about to post that. Yesterday I got my pixels beat up by a thief, while fighting a RANGER too, on my staff ele build.

It’s not fair that the thief can stealth over and over and over, while eles don’t have any reveal and their staff skills are so slow. Where is my ele version of double 10k vaults hmm? Am I expected to run DD for another 4 years to be even remotely competitive? Where are my stealth skills? Can’t even make use of runes of the trapper because we don’t have traps… Why is it that thief gets ultimate stealth PLUS ultimate mobility PLUS ultimate burst PLUS have access to make these super condi builds that melt you? Eles have low hp too so why don’t eles have similar movement skills to run away better? Where is my ele condi bomb build so I can laugh at my opponent frantically trying to run away while their hp are ticking out?

Speaking of condi, where are all my super condi clears? It’s not like the meta hasn’t been all about the condi for a long time… Would stand to reason that eles should get equivalent condi clears to other classes like necro and guardian and warrior and druid, and go into stealth like thief while removing condi too lol… It’s not right that thief can just layer stealth plus condi over and over and over while I’m standing there unable to clear or run properly…

And through the whole fight the druid was nothing more than an annoyance, it took the thief to kill me… Go figure… Nerf OP thief.

Edit- and the Druid was running that supposed “cheese op” builds people are complaining about too.

I checked, “See all messages by Swagger.1459”
because I remember saw you lot of times in the ranger forum before.
Do not disguise your self to ele fellow ranger, don’t try any dirty tricks.

I have one of each profession and that’s a true story. Thief OP, Ranger UP.

Still main Ranger and that won’t change, but I have to be honest.

I also have one of each and I can’t agree with meta wvw druid being UP. It’s plain kittened to say that considering they have all a cele d/d ele has but better and an easy access to stealth + a pet.

It’s not because other builds can do well vs that build that it isn’t overall over-performing. When you take in what is sacrifice and what is gained relative to what other can sacrifice and gain for the same sacrifice, it’s pretty kitten cheesy.

It sacrifices a crap ton of personal damage for sustain. That’s a big part of why it does so poorly outside of 1v1’s.

More than a cele d/d ele?

Cele ele was dominating before the HoT power creep. It was basically on par with current builds when everything else was significantly weaker.

Sure but you do realize you do all they ever did but better on every aspect and then add stealth and a pet?

Stealth is probably what makes it too much in WvW to be fair. In pvp stealth is no problem but in WvW it’s enough to break a lot. It’s just too easy to get away from situations anybody else would have died long ago whwn you have so many ways to evade death and pursuit. The only way to defeat a druid in WvW is massive cc chains. If you can’t pull that along with the required damage spike just go home, you loose your time.

If you are that hard to threaten, it should not be that easy to be a threat to others. Druids do WAY too good damage for their level of defense. Yes, I agree the HoT power-creep is largely to blame and that druid are not alone to drip cheese like that but it is what it is.

BTW, I did the same discourse for other builds including the cele ele back then. It’s not a case of nerf all but me or nerf all that kill me. It’s a case of do a better job at balance.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Swagger.1459:

Gibimo.2193:

Swagger.1459:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rotteny.8743:

Justine.6351:

ya as op as druid is made out to be (it is pretty amazing) I still see fair representation of all classes when in wvw. I find it hard to believe that many people are so proper about not rushing to pickup the next op thing. If druid was so op it just had to be nerfed hard trust me, there would be like a 5-1 ratio of them in wvw because that’s probably the ratio of people who have no shame when it comes to winning.

That’s because druids are only strong in small scale and most of the people are just here for the blobs and ppt.

And these are the people that come to complain about dying to druids.
“I died to a dueling build on my staff ele, please nerf”

Easy now, was just about to post that. Yesterday I got my pixels beat up by a thief, while fighting a RANGER too, on my staff ele build.

It’s not fair that the thief can stealth over and over and over, while eles don’t have any reveal and their staff skills are so slow. Where is my ele version of double 10k vaults hmm? Am I expected to run DD for another 4 years to be even remotely competitive? Where are my stealth skills? Can’t even make use of runes of the trapper because we don’t have traps… Why is it that thief gets ultimate stealth PLUS ultimate mobility PLUS ultimate burst PLUS have access to make these super condi builds that melt you? Eles have low hp too so why don’t eles have similar movement skills to run away better? Where is my ele condi bomb build so I can laugh at my opponent frantically trying to run away while their hp are ticking out?

Speaking of condi, where are all my super condi clears? It’s not like the meta hasn’t been all about the condi for a long time… Would stand to reason that eles should get equivalent condi clears to other classes like necro and guardian and warrior and druid, and go into stealth like thief while removing condi too lol… It’s not right that thief can just layer stealth plus condi over and over and over while I’m standing there unable to clear or run properly…

And through the whole fight the druid was nothing more than an annoyance, it took the thief to kill me… Go figure… Nerf OP thief.

Edit- and the Druid was running that supposed “cheese op” builds people are complaining about too.

I checked, “See all messages by Swagger.1459”
because I remember saw you lot of times in the ranger forum before.
Do not disguise your self to ele fellow ranger, don’t try any dirty tricks.

I have one of each profession and that’s a true story. Thief OP, Ranger UP.

Still main Ranger and that won’t change, but I have to be honest.

I also have one of each and I can’t agree with meta wvw druid being UP. It’s plain kittened to say that considering they have all a cele d/d ele has but better and an easy access to stealth + a pet.

It’s not because other builds can do well vs that build that it isn’t overall over-performing. When you take in what is sacrifice and what is gained relative to what other can sacrifice and gain for the same sacrifice, it’s pretty kitten cheesy.

It sacrifices a crap ton of personal damage for sustain. That’s a big part of why it does so poorly outside of 1v1’s.

More than a cele d/d ele?

Swagger.1459:

Gibimo.2193:

Swagger.1459:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rotteny.8743:

Justine.6351:

ya as op as druid is made out to be (it is pretty amazing) I still see fair representation of all classes when in wvw. I find it hard to believe that many people are so proper about not rushing to pickup the next op thing. If druid was so op it just had to be nerfed hard trust me, there would be like a 5-1 ratio of them in wvw because that’s probably the ratio of people who have no shame when it comes to winning.

That’s because druids are only strong in small scale and most of the people are just here for the blobs and ppt.

And these are the people that come to complain about dying to druids.
“I died to a dueling build on my staff ele, please nerf”

Easy now, was just about to post that. Yesterday I got my pixels beat up by a thief, while fighting a RANGER too, on my staff ele build.

It’s not fair that the thief can stealth over and over and over, while eles don’t have any reveal and their staff skills are so slow. Where is my ele version of double 10k vaults hmm? Am I expected to run DD for another 4 years to be even remotely competitive? Where are my stealth skills? Can’t even make use of runes of the trapper because we don’t have traps… Why is it that thief gets ultimate stealth PLUS ultimate mobility PLUS ultimate burst PLUS have access to make these super condi builds that melt you? Eles have low hp too so why don’t eles have similar movement skills to run away better? Where is my ele condi bomb build so I can laugh at my opponent frantically trying to run away while their hp are ticking out?

Speaking of condi, where are all my super condi clears? It’s not like the meta hasn’t been all about the condi for a long time… Would stand to reason that eles should get equivalent condi clears to other classes like necro and guardian and warrior and druid, and go into stealth like thief while removing condi too lol… It’s not right that thief can just layer stealth plus condi over and over and over while I’m standing there unable to clear or run properly…

And through the whole fight the druid was nothing more than an annoyance, it took the thief to kill me… Go figure… Nerf OP thief.

Edit- and the Druid was running that supposed “cheese op” builds people are complaining about too.

I checked, “See all messages by Swagger.1459”
because I remember saw you lot of times in the ranger forum before.
Do not disguise your self to ele fellow ranger, don’t try any dirty tricks.

I have one of each profession and that’s a true story. Thief OP, Ranger UP.

Still main Ranger and that won’t change, but I have to be honest.

I also have one of each and I can’t agree with meta wvw druid being UP. It’s plain kittened to say that considering they have all a cele d/d ele has but better and an easy access to stealth + a pet.

It’s not because other builds can do well vs that build that it isn’t overall over-performing. When you take in what is sacrifice and what is gained relative to what other can sacrifice and gain for the same sacrifice, it’s pretty kitten cheesy.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Rotteny.8743:

Justine.6351:

ya as op as druid is made out to be (it is pretty amazing) I still see fair representation of all classes when in wvw. I find it hard to believe that many people are so proper about not rushing to pickup the next op thing. If druid was so op it just had to be nerfed hard trust me, there would be like a 5-1 ratio of them in wvw because that’s probably the ratio of people who have no shame when it comes to winning.

That’s because druids are only strong in small scale and most of the people are just here for the blobs and ppt.

And these are the people that come to complain about dying to druids.
“I died to a dueling build on my staff ele, please nerf”

Stawman much? Anyway, the comparison to a cele d/d was made not anything else…

Be reassured, I’m expecting to loose when on my zerk staff ele (to pretty much all) and whoever beat me while I stubbornly play it solo in WvW doesn’t need a nerf for it. However, that doesn’t mean ppl are blind and incapable of seeing what the problem is with other builds relative to each others all things being equal.

And for the record, yes, I always thought cele d/d eles were pure cheese and ubber forgiving to play… and as you know I main ele.

dragonrage.8921:

Instead of complaining that something is OP counter it or leave it be. Theres always a way to counter a build just depends in your willing to run and come up with a appropriate build. Think for yourself sometimes the metas not always the right way to go.

Sure, but that’s beside the point. The game is in dire need of balance if build diversity is to be even remotely viable. Telling all to also pick the cheese kitten only make things worst not better.

Sometimes, ppl have a valid point when they complain. This is one of them.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

In this game, all the races of Tyria seem to be segregated to their own people. I’m not talking about just the racial starting towns, but rather the whole open world (PvE and personal story). With love having no boundaries, there should be more biracial people out and about. What that said, would you be open to having NPCs of a mixed background?

I’d like to start a discussion on this idea, and hopefully not get into a debate on how it may or may not work. In game, we already have close biracial relationships. Braham and Taimi or Braham and Rox for example. If we took this further to the next logical step, it could open the doors for Anet story writers to introduce new types of NPCs and drama opportunities.

One day, we could be walking in Lion’s Arch, and meet a Charrsura. Or an adorable Norggan. Maybe a Skrylvari? So many races, so many pairings!

A plant rat sounds good. Where do I sigh?

Justine.6351:

MidoriMarch.8067:

Jim Hunter.6821:

RlyOsim.2497:

Also, as an aside, and I’m not calling out druids in particular, could people that main a class please stop with the just straight denial of broken stuff. Play 1 other class at least, and if you don’t maybe look at your response and ask ‘is this biased’? If something is overtuned in WvW it affects all of us, I get my ‘mai class is mai class’ but please, Anet clearly haven’t got a kittening clue about WvW balance so just discuss instead of straight white-knighting. We don’t want Glorious Leader to be confused.

Funny thing is when you go from playing a ranger to pretty much any other profession you feel like the game just got put on easy mode. All of a sudden you have roughly the same sustain but 2-3 times the damage.

This is the most funniest comment ever i’ve seen 2016

I mean druid is soooo hard to play right? I mean druid skill rotation and play style is extremely easy and forgiving.

Most of people who main druid always think they are playing the hardest profession which is not true they heavily gets carried by the profession and build it self and they usually play the bunker/condi cheese as well as they play so bad when they get to play other professions.

and no thief only rely on evade and stealth and stealth has so many counters nowdays which means evade is the only clutch to save thieves. If u ever duel a same skilled level of druid vs thief, thief has no chance of winning thats how it is and thats not a l2p issue. In order to beat druids with thief u have to 100% outplay them to get them down.

yet Druid? superior short cd’s on weapon set skills . mobility on gs or staff , good healing , regen , 1200~1500 range kiting , easy access to stability and might boons , can stealth , good damage.

Druid lacks nothing, None of other professions can access all of that and all those druid main tells everyone who disagree l2p so funny lol

i mean I can play druid for less than 50 hours and can still compete with skilled roamers easily thats how it is low risk high reward.

Easy access to stability! How many times do I need to have my SotP interrupted by daze and fear spam before it’s considered hard lols.

Getting interrupted is not just a druid problem though and it changes nothing about them having too much for what they sacrificed.

The comparison to the old cele ele is a good one. Except druid has even better healing and condi cleanse on top of mobility and access to stealth… and a pet… Even getting to 25 might is easier to do.

The problem is the same as usual. Risk vs reward. Druids (meta version) are tanky as kitten, able to run away like hell while also being able of abusing stealth with smokescale… and yet do very good damage still. The kind of damage you should not be able to dish out with the level of tankiness they entertain.

Sure, they aren’t alone in the cheese dip department, but they clearly are among the worst example of risk vs reward gone bad in wvw.

Sylvyn.4750:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Junkpile.7439:

If enemy have lot’s of player you get more kills.

Sure, when I 1 v 20 I usually get 20 bags… or is it 20 ppl getting each 1 bag out of my carcass…

Amazing how that works…it’s like you’re pyschic or something to carry just enough bags for the 20 players that roflstomped you 6 ft under! No wonder you couldn’t run away from them fast enough…20 bags weigh a person down!

It sure does. But to be fair, I don’t run a build that let me outrun others anyway.

Shylock.4653:

kdaddy.5431:

If you are talking about the Leader Board rewards time when Lux Fortuna was the #1 ranked player. It was definitely not skill based.

There was a MMR based version of the Leaderboard which later get replaced with a grind based version.

The grind based was bad and it’s good that it’s gone.
The MMR based was good and should get reintroduced.

There is no “good” individual MMR period. A good MMR would measure your skill based on your contribution. Not assume that you being on a wining team equal you being good.

Ppl definition of “good” too often is: Whatever makes me look good, no matter what it is.

Junkpile.7439:

If enemy have lot’s of player you get more kills.

Sure, when I 1 v 20 I usually get 20 bags… or is it 20 ppl getting each 1 bag out of my carcass…

Tiny Doom.4380:

Thorfinnr Sleggja.1209:

Liston.9708:

remember a T3 rolled the T4 match this week

Yes…but HoD had been in Tier 3 with SBI…and I don’t remember seeing numbers like we are seeing now from YB. We saw big groups…but not with the kind of consistency I have seen over the last few days.

I’m not sure if its been bandwagon’d or what…but it just doesn’t come out in the wash.

I give YB credit for having a large active WvW pop, which HoD/EBAY/ET obviously do not, at leats not in the BLs…<shrug>…who knows…I won’t speak for NSP/DH/DR…but this is why the pairings and matchups still do not work.

If there’s even a chance this coudl re-roll for the same matchup next week…something is still obviously and dreadfully wrong. lol

What’s happened on YB is mainly that a bunch of very active WvW players who’d been absent for various reasons (mainly just Summer, vacations etc really) all returned last week. A whole load of people are playing now who were barely seen for the whole of the last link, including one commander who can and does pull a much bigger crowd than just about anyone and who is a lot more likely to hold the stuff he takes for as long as he can.

Actual numbers probably haven’t changed an awful lot but there is now a much higher level of organization and also a desire to do something about the glicko bleed and stabilize it if possible. Unfortunately that does mean stomping all over everything whenever possible – although you’ll note YB by no means has the coverage to do that at will.

Honestly, I don’t think bleeding glicko or not make any difference. As far as I know YB always plays like that period.

Aitadis.8269:

Malediktus.3740:

The whole Moa skill (and Portal skill) should be removed from PvP, both are way too overpowered to be allowed in a pvp game

Moa and portal existed before the expansion but no one complained about it then, even when Moa lasted 10 seconds instead of it’s current 6. Why? Because power mesmer is hard countered by thief, something that every pro level team had and condi mesmer didn’t exist back then. Moa and portal is not the problem.

That here is plain false. Just browse forum history about Moa and you’ll know just how bad what you said is.

Nuzt.7894:

Knob.6835:

My whole guild of 80 actives voted for it and we like that you don’t like it. Keep the zergs out. The small scale fights are incredible.

Irony folks, get it while it’s hot!

I’d laugh if it wasn’t hurting so much…

Ensign.2189:

It could be useful to update the player score / participation system, as long as it doesn’t have any impact on either Glicko or pips gained or lost from the outcome of the match. You would have to do a very, very good job of specifying personal score to make adding it to either of those systems value positive – a much better job than anyone has ever done in any game.

Ironically, if they would somehow find a way to accurately measure your impact on any given victory or defeat (personal score done right in an utopian world) it would be FAR superior to glicko alone since winning or loosing in itself say very little about what you are worth in a game along 9 other players.

Jeknar.6184:

Thorfinnr Sleggja.1209:

misterman.1530:

Wow. Take a look at the bottom tier of NA. That’s some awesome pairing there. Jesus wept.

Well, have time for Fallout 4 now. Thanks Anet.

Full disclosure…I’m on HoD…fights are good.

But this is nuts. I have seen groups at the 25+ size. Smallest I fought against just last night in the HoD BL was a YB group of 15. and I think there were 5-7 of us trying to save a camp.

I have yet to see a group with members with an FC description…everything I saw…and there may have been some FC in these big groups that I missed…looked to be YB.

This is not balanced. Its way off. Even with our 3 server pairing…its way off. I have to say to ANET…this isn’t working. if something like this can come out of the matchups, the system, even if it is a new matchup and “Glicko” needs time to balance it, is broken…and by the time it evens out, it will be time to re-pair the servers and start all over again.

I guess its time to go focus on knocking out those PvE achievements. This stops being fun when it gets to this point.

FC, and all other guests in the current T4 match, are too small to be noticeable if you ask me.

While I still was on NSP+DH+DR pairing, I would only see NSP guild groups and the ocasional Dh PvX tag aside from my own guild. I’ve seen ONE person from a DR guild (GIT) and that’s it.

While the same can be said about the HoD pairings (The majority of the guild tags I see are HoD) I still see some EBAY diehards (along with my ICEE friends) and the ocasional FoC tag from ET.

Most FC people that are left seen to be the roamers. So you’ll hardly see a large group composed mostly of FC. Maki and HipT seen to stick on DBL while Main and SNKY seen to avoid it.

So yes, YB is stomping this tier by themselves. It’s nothing new tho… YB is Very High while all other server and their guests are Medium. It is obvious that there is a population disparity. But I belive CD+, who also is composed of Medium servers except for CD itself, can make this match a bit more balanced. Problem is: CD is fairing well in T3. So you better hope that T3 population isn’t much higher than T4 or it will repeat the last link fiasco all over again.

What do you mean “while I was on NSP+DH+DR”? Don’t tell me you moved to the blobosaurus rex of “I will use 15 sup treb from 10k distance along a map queue on a paper tower YB”!

:(

morrolan.9608:

TheGrimm.5624:

Lets say this together again.

Delete Season 1 PvP logic and never use it again.
Delete Season 1 PvP logic and never use it again.
Delete Season 1 PvP logic and never use it again.
..
..
..
Delete Season 1 PvP logic and never use it again.
Delete Season 1 PvP logic and never use it again.

Delete seasons 1-4 pvp logic and never use again.

Agree. The rest were no better. Just different.

Jeknar.6184:

Nightcore.7839:

People seem to have forgotten that removing DBL was never an option.

You were saying…?

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

The poll has ended! After removing all votes for “Don’t Count My Vote” the final results are:

65.5% No: The Desert Borderland map should continue to be supported.
34.5% Yes: The Desert Borderland map should be permanently disabled.

This means that the Desert Borderlands map will continue to be supported. Next, the Mixed Borderlands poll will be re-run to determine how the Desert Borderlands map will re-enter play. Thank you to everyone who voted!

I missed that poll kitten!

Kurowolfe.7396:

Aigh, I guess you can’t please everyone and anyone with whatever you do. All this T1 and Europe servers complaints, and I’m here wondering why DH is still dead last in the NA servers even with the new pairings. Guess DH just sucks at/really doesn’t have enough people in WvW (probably the latter). Our server is cursed to doom anyone who are unlucky enough to be paired with us, woo~

I’ll have to retract my statements in the other threads that WvW needs more balanced matchups, because with whatever the servers themselves are doing and the inherent nature of the high-low population servers, balance is impossible. Players will work out a way to keep things leaning in their favor, no matter what is being done about it (even if the actions are questionable at times). This is the reality of WvW, just gotta accept it and move on

Too many do not want balanced match-ups and it shows when you play against them and they have no hope of loosing to you.

For some reasons, despite saying over and over that score doesn’t matter to them and that they are bored and fight is all that matters bla-bla, ppl still ball-up into a mega-omniblob (instead of, say, making 2 or 3 of them) and pvd to death. Could it be otherwise? yes it could. But do they even try? No, they do not.

People are largely responsible for caring about the score and “winning” for them is more fun than fair fights.

Light Of The Abyss.5927:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Furious.1283:

Mel.8495:

its too bad if you dont want the money of us casual players, i bet a lot of people would gladly pay those 8000 (or more) gems to skip this season annoyance

I like working my way to whatever level I belong to. Paying to get to legendary has no merit whatsoever.

I agree. However, you could mount a similar argument for MMR putting you there instead of letting deeds speak of your skills…

If I understand how this is turning to be, the top 100 MMR will be sent directly to legendary without having to lift a finger to get there once the competition starts.

Why can’t it simply be a tournament ppl have to register in with a team and see how far that team goes?

You could look at it another way and the people with higher MMR will have a much harder time getting to legendary because from the get go they are matched with other high MMR people that are on their way to legendary.

If all categories are made of similarly “skilled” players the relative difficulty should be the same for all category.

Anyway, in my example above I was speaking of ppl STARTING at legendary just because of MMR. No deeds required at all just the rating. That would be lame as kitten…

I can understand the rating meaning something for ESL teams for example since they are very stable but for a player base that mostly soloq it’s laughable.

That it is an individual rating is already a big stretch. When that same rating is made of infinite numbers of players and contexts you have to wonder what it even mean anymore.

Furious.1283:

Mel.8495:

its too bad if you dont want the money of us casual players, i bet a lot of people would gladly pay those 8000 (or more) gems to skip this season annoyance

I like working my way to whatever level I belong to. Paying to get to legendary has no merit whatsoever.

I agree. However, you could mount a similar argument for MMR putting you there instead of letting deeds speak of your skills…

If I understand how this is turning to be, the top 100 MMR will be sent directly to legendary without having to lift a finger to get there once the competition starts.

Why can’t it simply be a tournament ppl have to register in with a team and see how far that team goes?

Turtle Dragon.9241:

The personal score does not matter when it comes to who has more points. However it does matter when it comes to who has NO points.

See if somebody caps/decaps, they get points. If they revive someone, if they so much as tag someone that dies with skill#1(contributed to a kill), they also get points. If they kill Svanir as well(or whatever mechanic the map has) they also get points.

So somebody who has 150 points could have done less than someone who has 120 points(they just happened to tag more enemies with aoe), in that case the personal score does not say much. But somebody who has 0-30 point during a match, that person probably has not contributed to the team much if at all. It is also likely they fed the enemy team much with points from their death.

tl;dr
Personal score does not tell you who had the best performance in a match, but it does tell you who did NOT perform well(if at all) in a match.

Actually, it doesn’t even tell you that.

One of my most memorable match was one where I had scored 0 personal point.

How? A teammate capped a point at the start of the match and called for help to defend. I came to help and although I was too late for my teammate I could defend the cap till the end never giving an inch. I killed no one, I capped or uncapped nothing, I rezzed no one… but my contribution made sure we had a cap all the match. I got 0 point for doing that and I think we can agree that close to a 1/3 of the score was directly coming from my actions. Was my actions registered as useful? Nope. But they were.

Josh Davis.6015:

Wargameur.6950:

Come on guys stop beeing all salty after we got a dev answer.

Josh, I suppose you won’t give us an answer about what are the change. But can you at least give us the areas ? Is it a change about the MMR, pips system, leagues, seasons ?

It’s too early to give concrete details. First we need to finish up development and then run through our internal “it is ready to ship?” process.

In short, we agree with a lot of what has been discussed on these forums. Leagues need to do better in the prestige department, and the pip system can’t really support that. If you’re in legendary, for example, you should truly be in the highest percentiles in terms of player skill. Leagues also need to feel more rewarding, especially once you’ve landed in your correct division. In the current system, the rate at which you earn rewards slows down significantly as your climb becomes more difficult in the later divisions – but you should still be rewarded for playing in your correct division, even if you can’t progress any further.

Another area of focus for the team is improving match quality. I can’t go into detail here (it will be better explained once we can talk about the entire scope of changes), but I wanted to let you know it’s a priority.

-Grouch

Will the current MMR be the metric of that individual player skill or you intend to go for something that better reflect individual contribution in an ever changing team setting?

Kyon.9735:

Jana.6831:

And you have never faced a Berserker with durability runes? And think that all those who call that class and build OP should be ashamed of themselves – alright then. Why don’t we all just run the same class with the same build and call it a day? Even then skill wouldn’t matter if it’s berserker – just random wins/losses everywhere.

Do you seriously think that anyone who picks up a meta build magically becomes godlike? Does every meta build you meet destroy you?

If you can please actually calm down and start using your brain, it’s pretty logical that a meta build on a mediocre player is good. A meta build on a great player is obviously better. Just because you hate meta builds doesn’t mean that you should ignore the individual’s skill.

And to be clear – I hate metabattle and meta builds. You can even look up to my previous posts. That website has done nothing but promote one true build for each class causing massive nerfs that affect non meta builds harder.

I think all he’s trying to say is that having success vs similar pvp/roamer builds and success vs zergling builds and/or outdated ones doesn’t mean the same.

I think we can agree that some match-ups are just, all skill being equal, unfair and doesn’t translate into you being a great player because you won or them being mediocre for dying when they were expected to die more often than not. If it was you playing what they were playing vs what you were playing (all things being equal) how would you have fared?

Some builds are just really too good for what you sacrifice to get what you get. The risk/reward ratio is just pretty broken as it is.

fishball.7204:

Fair would be everybody having to exert equal effort to climb but right now the bads are being carried by the better players due to this stupid system.

Not really having fun when I get keyboard turners on my team in diamond. Sure I might win if I give it my 150% and 1v2/3 and carry hard but what’s the point when that guy who is key board turning progress just as fast if not faster than me?

Trash league system.

If both teams have the same overall weight to carry it is fair. If you are not at a systemic and systematic disadvantage courtesy of the MM it is fair.

The problem isn’t that the match isn’t fair when the odds are 50/50. It is a lot better than s2 or s3 in that regard. The problem is climbing the reward track under a system that seeks to put people at a 50/50 overall win/loose ratio rather than 50/50 odds each match.

Soloq should not provide obviously unfair match-ups just because of a rating that isn’t even yours alone (team game mean MMR is a team rating not yours alone). The only way to avoid what you seem to hate is going premade. But if you go with soloq you should not be expecting favors by flashing the system “your” rating.

It does exist. It’s already pathetic to resort to spying period but it becomes utterly ridiculous when used against servers you are impossibly superior to.

About this topic, as with a load of others, players have to take the part of the blame that befell them.

Reality is, if ppl stop using fallacious reasoning to justify spying (a.k.a. others might do it so we will do it for sure so we don’t operate at a possible disadvantage) they will contribute to keeping the problem small instead of letting it grow.

apharma.3741:

Dawdler.8521:

Builds? Pfff I fight any builds.

What I dislike is fighting against that certain type of roamer that will happily and confidently go 1v1, yet at the first sign of loosing he is off like a rat on fire, presumably to save his 25 stacks or something. Or even worse, those that do the same in a small skirmish and abandons their mates.

Respect for those that stand and fight to the death even when their class/build could have let them escape.

Now PPK is not only a thing but grants as much as a camp does in 1 tick I don’t begrudge people running from a losing fight. Would be polite to /salute from a safe distance as an indication that the other guy won.

Not only that. It’s easy for someone to say “I fear no build” when that someone run an apex build that offers 10 different safe guards in case he makes mistakes and mostly prey on riskier builds and new players.

Excuse me to try and escape a bunch of heralds or DD when I accidentally run into them alone whit my glass staff ele. That I often manage to escape (and sometimes even win) is already quite impressive to begin with.

Blaqatak.1395:

Ran into my first Dire D/D condi Thief with Lotus whirl dodge w/ Caltrops, Signet of Agility, and acro for good measure. That was kittening horrific.

I watched several groups of people trickle in trying to kill him for several minutes (usually around 3 at once). Every one of them was every downed or forced out to reset. And all he did was spam 3 and evade. Popping signet, steal, & heal on CD to keep himself healthy and stocked on iniative & dodgerolls.

It was pretty bonkers. I love that gw2 has so much build depth but I dislike how mindless some of the execution can be.

I find a lot of builds in this game lack tactical counter-play. Once the fight begins, outcomes are often pre-determined based on rock-paper-scissors. Fortunately, there are still some great fights to be found!

Funny you mention that build. I myself ran into one yesterday when on my trusty glass staff ele in WvW and I was left wondering what was the risk this guy had fighting me? I mean, he could escape anything whenever he felt too much pressure but you couldn’t escape him no matter what. And all he needed was one successful condi bomb he could launch from stealth (that he abused like a kitten) after water attunement and it was over. Risk/reward management could be better if you ask me…