Guild Wars 2

Misguided.5139:

The traps aren’t the issue, though I’d like the bleed trait back. I’d rather keep using scepter/torch than longbow.

what is the issue then?

Misguided.5139:

It’s depressing, really. My guardian is my most-played character by far, but with as much fun as I have had with Revenant/Reaper and how little DH offers for a PvE burn build, it looks more and more like it will wind up on the shelf.

Depressing?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApdTnsABNdilDBODBEEhlAiS+7L/z3KAeg3MbIawJE-T1hAABU8EAqW9HA3f4alfSqEEgTBQ06DIFAELrA-w

the example is for pve open world. change weapons for dungeons.

Basically you engage with bow #4 > #5 > f2 > JI > Elite > weapons swap > trap > mace #2 > mace #3.

with three targets in the aoe you are looking at 40+ burn stacks per target each doing 1500 damage. AND this is not eving considering that GS would be much more effective.

I played this build without tunes of the mad king. against non veterans you can not even finish the combo without everything being dead.

the trap adds 8 stacks and 20% damage on all ticks. why in the world is this depressing?

You can swap mace/focus or GS for staff too, to never even have to go into melee combat. simply stay afar block the enemies path for 11 seconds and use double symbols, piercing attacks and what not. heck you can even swap out Purging flames for WoR and even ranged attacks are gone.

I can understand any frustration about DH in terms of meta. but generalizing DH as depressing for PVE is just silly.

DH + Virtues is probably the strongest aoe burn condi setup you can run in the entire game.

I also do not get the gripe about leaving SoJ/VoJ on passiv. Its the whole idea for condi builds.

If anything I find that DH does not bring enough to justify it for a dps builds. the active of SoJ does not last long enough to be worth it. especially since we can get hig vurn will be maxed out anyway in group play.

hi Darkened,

just wanted to point out that some of your issues are already addressed but they did not make it in this BWE

Darkened.4076:

• Invisible: They need to be invisible. Maybe visible for 2-3 seconds and then disappear from enemy site.

This actually is already the case. Enemies can just see the animation of you putting them down. nothing else.

Darkened.4076:

• Piercing Light: Bleeding is kinda meh. Would much prefer a daze/stun/chill some kind of control over a bleed effect. CDR is great.

bleed will be removed. 1 sec daze will come.

Darkened.4076:

• Hunters Fortification: I thought this was a joke for a grandmaster trait. So under powered…. Even if by some miracle you were able to chain this with resets, it would still be crap. Maybe this should be another interesting trap trait, that further develops traps? Its in the name.

This trait was changed to cure a condition whenever you block and you recieve 10% less damage with no conditions on you.

Amineo.8951:

All people playing Guardian for 2 years or more said that traps were bad and DH sucks, …

no

/15 characters

Black Box.9312:

Sorry, but no. Traps can literally be rendered useless by an evade or blink.

That is true for any skill in the game.

Black Box.9312:

Sure, you can place them ahead of time — But when your enemy avoids them, you’ll be left with no utilities to use. On the other hand, if you try to place them down in combat, the enemy will see where you placed it, and especially if they have a ranged weapon they can easily use that 1s of activation time to pummel you with DPS or CC. In either case, the trap does not do its job and you’ll have effectively wasted your utility skills, which for a Guardian particularly also means you’ll have no sustain.

That is true as well and the downside of traps. no doubt about it.

Black Box.9312:

Traps have an incredibly low skill threshold in this game due to the highly mobile combat system. Every skill slot you take a trap in essentially becomes a wasted slot against a skilled player, because they will outmaneuver you and you will be left with nothing.

This applies only when you are actually going 1on1 with an enemy which currently applies only to one gamemode: pvp

Black Box.9312:

This has been very clearly outlined by the distinct lack of trap builds being prevalent in the meta for any game mode. We already have trap access on two classes, and neither of those two classes use a single one in any meta compositions. The pacing is just too quick for any sort of delayed action skills to be effective without heavy amounts of CC, which Guardians simply don’t have.

So we are indeed talking exclusivly about the pvp meta. I am not trying to put you on the spot because you are one of the few that often enough refers to this but the majority is generalizing the issues.

Black Box.9312:

Furthermore, this game’s combat system has a strong emphasis on timing skills properly for maximum reward. When you set and forget a trap, this facet of strategy is completely thrown out the window, because you are no longer timing your skill. You are placing it on the ground and hoping that your enemy is unskilled enough to not only trigger them, but also fail to react to them. Active defense makes it incredibly easy to reactively avoid big hits for players that can time it well enough, meaning that they can use proper timing to best you, and you won’t be able to do the same back to them because you relied on your traps instead of your own skill.

Maybe the skill is to not let this happen? An Assuming that you are facing pro players 100% of the time is again soemthing taht only applies to pvp and even there 80% of the games population will not have this issue.

Black Box.9312:

Want more proof of how unreliable traps are? They can be triggered by any enemy unit that touches them. Fighting a Mesmer? Good luck, not only can they blink and teleport but their clones will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting a Ranger? Good luck, their bow is much more powerful in a 1v1 and their pet will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting a Necro? Good luck, they’ll have minions that will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting an Engineer? Good luck, whatever those drones the Forge is getting will probably tank your traps and then you will be dead. Hell, even a Spirit Weapon Guardian will have an advantage over you. By placing a trap, you are almost literally placing your faith in a single spot of terrain and hoping that the first thing that touches it is your actual target. The reality is that that just isn’t going to happen nearly as often as you might think it will.

All true and of course valid and a problem. However I think its great that you see no value in stopping/destroying clones, phantasms, minios, drones or pets. this is exactly what I am talking about.

Black Box.9312:

You wanted more arguments that traps are bad? There, now you have them. But by all means, if you want to use them anyway, go ahead. The rest of us will just be busy NOT falling for them ….

… in pvp.

Black Box.9312:

Meanwhile, my only constructive feedback is that traps be reworked to the point where they’re “not traplike” again, because the moment Anet decided to make such a change they effectively destroyed any chance traps had at being competitive.

what change? what chance is destroyed? why is there no hope? again exactly my point. Everything is lost the guardian class is doomed.

I think it is important for each of you fighting for change to make sure that you make it way more clear that this gripe comes from a competitive pvp point of view.

I am not so ingorant as to not see your anger as frustation twords what the missed chance what you hope it could/should be and that the passionated opinions are indeed a high form of expressing passion for the class itself. But in the end you all paint the picture darker then it acutally is.

which does NOT mean that there is no need for improvement on the DH

Traps need to become real contenders for utility slots. To become that they need to fill the role of stun breakers and condicleansers. They already have the offensive nature.

you could go for a trait that goes like this:
All traps are stun breakers

But this seems kind of boring and probably a little OP. But hey knock back enemies with knocked back enemies.

for example:

Purification
Heal yourself and imbue your light and two conditions into a trap. Enemies that trigger this trap are damaged, blinded. The enemy who triggered the trap will be hit with the conditions imbued as the light returns to you for a second heal.

I think the Trap test of Faith would work better if the trap radius and sword radius would been swapped. and the sword radius slightly larger.

Pros:

- if the trap is activated the enmy will most likely cross the barrier at least once if he does not react fast enough.
- it would be easier to knock someone though the border twice making it more fun to have it on the battlefield and attempting such thing because the reward is higher (double damage)
- large hit box enemies might actually get really hurt by hit.

cons:
- you do not cover as much of an area.

a different approach would be to leave the tra as it is but knock the enemy 80 units back so that they are just outside the ring again and have to think twice to engage. It would also add another way of applying cripple off knock back.

ThePaladin.2140:

snip

I think its gret that you see your opinion so valuable that you post the exact words in two threads at once.

reading all these exaggerting rants and whiny posts made me come to the conclusion that some of you might think that the more and louder you cry you get more stuff… worked the first time eh?

I am on the same page that there are strange in incoherrent choices that could have been better calls. I even think that at the moment any build I come up with does not need the LB and i rather would use a staff or scepter for range – which says a lot.

But the constant “its all bullkitten” is just not gonna help anyone.

I played DH on the weekend and its by no means all garbage to a point where you can not have fun with this elite spec even without the announced changes which will make it kitten good.

hunters fortification is the best example. A whole lot are saying this is not a good GM trait. This build for example:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApdTnsABNditCBmCBEEhF/hCbEehfQO8X/23KAqg6E-TFiFABLq+jBnCghV+l9DAwKlgAcEA8e/B30HQKAIWWB-w

Even if I ignore pure of voice – you will have 16 additional conditions removed over the course of just one minute.

But no the trait is garbage and not helping at all or enough … because it does not clear 3 condis at once and goes on CD for 40 secs.

traps are plain kitten because no one walks in them… oh .. my…. god. this is just the worst arguemnt ever. there is no pvp map without extremely good choke points to place them. you have to go through them. If you dumb enough to let you enemy see you placing them well what can I say… you really dont understand how a trap works.

I think more constructive feedback – which is there – would be the better choice from now on.

The short answers is yes.

Basically what dragonhunter will provide you with for a burn build is a contious cover condition via cripple if traited. It has to show how effective it will actually be but I assume that it will keep a constant one condition removal “protection” infront of you burn. it can turn out to be hugh depending on the queque of conditions.

Side effect: The ability to kite the opponent to a certain extend.

What DH will also provide is a means of condition cleanse via blocks which will make a difference despite what most people say. so you can actually run DH/Virutes/radiance.

However I think that a build like this will be quite strong in a 1vs1 scenario – which will be a new game mode imo with the introduction of guild halls and arenas. If it holds up in other game modes is questionable but I think it will be quite fun in pve as it brings decent damage and important buffs for group play.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApdTnsABNditCBmCBEEhF/hCbEehfQO8X/23KAqg6E-TFiFABLq+jBnCghV+l9DAwKlgAcEA8e/B30HQKAIWWB-w

The build utilizes defenders dogma and the new hunters fortification and brings a lot of sustain.

I wouldnt shed a tear for the removal of the burn from LB. It was just one stack and also it hurts it doesnt break bow as a condi weapon becasuse it never was. the removed bleed on trap is unfortunate but anet might put something back in.

Are you sure you posted the right build? burning guard with 70 condition damage seems not really working out. :-)

Mordeus.1234:

Asmodal.6489:

Elites are supposed to transform the class into something new. under this aspect the DH works better then most of the other elites so far.

The problem with the Dragonhunter is that it lacks the synergy that the other elites have because it has very little ties to the core profession of which it represents.

That is simply not true. Again. What the core class represents is not the point. If you are willing to follow that thought fo a moment we can discuss how DH traits and weapons interact with exisiting traitlines. there is a lot of synergy IF you cosndier the changes for the next BWE. I am totally with you that the original reveal had a lot less synergy.

but lets give you argument room too. What the guardian class represents is (imo) great bunker and support capabilites as well as high risk high reward dps gameplay and although this feel like a HoT addition sometimes – heavy burn condition builds.

So in what way would it be more fun to have a traitline that emphasizes this gameplay in addition to having to compete with already working builds/tools. DH would be a traitline that does not define the class but merely add to a specific playstyle.

berserker is the best example. it basically just boosted the class mechanic and added a different and more ways of applying burn competing with an offhand that already had condition application. The utilites have cool animations and are somewhat unique. but as soon as the new wears of people will still run the usual suspects. There is also nothing that anet can do to make the berserker more powerful because they missed it completely to integrated a downside of going berserker – which normally goes along with lowered defense and what not. If they up the damage berserker will make all other traitlines obsolete.

I dont think thieves really got soemthing new as well as elementalists – they are in the same boat as DH. The core specs are extremely powerful.

Reaper is in line with DH in terms of gameplay… you are still a servant of death however.

Arnath.2319:

I see two possible solutions, change the traits that buff the passive effect to buff the active.

well that logic is flawed. The traits buff the passiv and naturally that encourages to not use them. but who is to say you can not go both directions? This is a too way street. A problem only exists if you consider not using them more boring or if the actives contradict themsleves which is only true for VoJ/SoJ in some ways. Keeping VoJ/SoJ passiv is only better in Condition builds so it is easier to argue that Aplified Wrath and Radiant Fire are misplaced in the Radiance Trait line since the go to Grandmaster contradicts 2/3 of the minors.

F2 and F3 are more of a “oh kitten I need that now” button – which F1 is also if you do not go into condi or it is used for added support in terms of damage and retal.

I do get what you saying though. instead of evening out this two way street anets creating more and more reasons not to use the F1. However in no situation the minors are a total waste. if you hapen to have them – so I would not call that a serious issue.

Arnath.2319:

Allow the passive to permanently stay even if F1 is on cool-down.

Well no one would argue with that. Although it would make F1 incredibly OP. having twice as much VoC pop out double the amount of aegis is also something that will heavy impact guardian performance.

IMO this could be a grandmaster trait that replaces Radiant Retaliation which still is the dumbest trait ever since it is contradicting Amplified Wrath. It would give an incentive besides crit chance to go into radiance if you are not running condi build.

Defenders Dogma bypasses the five hits interval. it does not take SoJ off CD which would totaly be insane and basically mean that we can use the active too freely giving us to much aoe blind and burn.

So the minor is only effective if VoJ is not on CD. But that is also true for many other of our minor traits and I do not see you complain about them.

Defenders Dogma loses some value if you have supreme justice … but guess what you can now take AR and be compensated by DD. IF you still take it then you need to work for the benefit it gives.

e.g.: symbols & traps will cause burn while you activate shelter or focus #5 more frequently.

this trait and the trait Assic mentioned in combo with hunters fortification will turn mace #3 into skil that will cause:

- block
- big damage
- 1 stack of burn (2 when traited radiance*)
- cripple
- remove one condition

On a 15 sec CD. the trait is a kittening thing of beauty if you ask me. Lots of synergy … works well with Shattered Aegis and permeating wrath.

• add in rune of the defender and rejoice.

funny thing that LB is a ranged version of GS.

1. = AA
2. = big damage, hard to land
3. = blind
4. = symbol
5. = CC+ damage, hard to land

All of it on lower cool downs but somehow it does not get any love from the playerbase at all.

Hunter.4783:

people are upset for 2 main reasons.

The elite spec is crap
Most of the updated skills DIDN’T make it into this test
Mechanics we have been asking for years miraculously make it into other elite specs, such as the revi shield

So really, i would say we have a VERY good reason to be upset

no

/15 characters

I do agree on some but not on all parts. IMO Dragonhunter should be an offensive alteration of the Guardian. Elites are supposed to transform the class into something new. under this aspect the DH works better then most of the other elites so far.

I do not get the “clunkiness” argument at all. DH feels very “flowing” to me.

The key trait will be the revised version that causes Spear of Justice passiv to inflict cripple on burn. This trait is so OP that it will most likely be the go to master trait for offensiv DH builds. It helps landing our crucial skills like GS #2, Hammer #4 & #5, Torch #4 & #5 and LB #2 & #5. IF it works with permeating wrath it will be a absolute helpful addition to WvWvW.

LB needs tweaks but it is on a decent path. I agree however that the concept of the weapon is kind of boring. Not because they do not work but because every skill is literally a ranged copy of GS in what it does – which ironically every Guardian loves.

Hunters Fortification will be awsome. there is nothing to add. If you cant see how this trait benefits Guradian builds your lost.

Traps are traps with pros and cons. We have several means to push or pull people in there. heck we have stealth now even if it is just for the purpose of stealthing and blow up a medi burst in our enemies face that is now even harder to react too. IF you think most raps are worthless you clearly have not used them to their full potential. I am not saying they shouldn’t be better but they are not garbage. What baffles me is the lack of a single condi cleanse and or stun break on them.

I think it is save to say that any utility that is a serious contender or the extremely strong ones we already have had to be very very good. – we are in a good place as you all know ;-)

All the whining leads to my conclusion that most people complaining want something that makes them stronger and not “different” which is a hugh misconeception of waht elites should be. IF you do not like the DH then don not spec for it and enjoy the Guardian class as it is.

Dirame.8521:

Fashion Mage.3712:

I think people think this build is more counterable than it actually is, and underrate it (like many things).

You haven’t fought the right Engies and Necros I guess.

necros for sure but engis have a tough time with continous application of burn. their cleanses are quite predictable so you just havt to time you bursts accordingly.

the build also got demoted

Bezagron.7352:

Asmodal.6489:

Another cool OP idea:
WoR Trait change: Leap to taget area. relocate all foes in the area into the center of the nearest trap – #rekt

:-)

Love this idea & don’t think it’s really OP. What is does is supply a reliable means of trigging your traps and as a fair bit of a DH Trap build survivability is tied up in traps it provides a reliable means of using this survivability.

And this is what I would like a small amount of reliable forced relocation into the traps within the Dragonhunter specialization. Add this with other weapons, specialization lines & indirect relocation & I couldn’t fault Longbow & Trap gameplay. Everything else as you mention would enhance it.

I can understand and it would be coll but I think this would fall under “cheesy” gameplay which imo anet tries to avoid most of the time because the playerbase will find enough ways to trivialize content, mechanics and what not.

the given example could be exploited in wvwvw to port enemy troops into keeps or into mid air to take lethal falling damage. (pretty sure the revenant relocatinc skill will get some serious cries because of that)

well they did it with tomes…

personally I dont see how they could fix spirit weapons in the current state ithout going a complete new way like you suggested.

However I am pretty sure anets gonna leave them as is until a specialisation that centers around them. Then you can tie them to the Virtues and replace the existing wards with utilites that boosts them and yourself (spirit wards or something).

At the moment the case ist lost.

Bezagron.7352:

At the moment with most Trap builds you are reliant on your foes walking into a trap & depending on trap design stay there. Good position & placement helps but you foe is still required to walk into it and I believe this is what is holding trap gameplay back.

okay I understand your intention but if we look at what we actually have at our disposal I do not think it is that bad.

forced relocates:
GS #5 pulls foes
Hammer #4 has a strong knockback
Shield #5 – yes I said it!
Dragons Maw pulls foes
LB traited knocks back (not far but still enough)

Skills that keep foes in place:
Hammer #5 + #3
Lb #5
scepter #3
SoJ if traited
WoR if traited
2x Signet
Staff #5

indirect relocation
I would go as far as counting GS #2 and Hammer #2 as well. people always say that these abilites are so easy evoidable because you just doge or walk away. Use them to drive foes in the direction you want.

In PvE you need to consider that the daze will act as a root as well.
On top we will be able to keep the enemy perma crippled of we trait/build for it.

Basically our enemies will be forced heavily into stun breaks and stability use because if we got them where we want we can lock them down pretty hard to a point where 1 or two stacks of stability will not help escape.

Dragons Maw + Lb #5 + Hammer# 5 + Ji + Test of Faith. You need three stacks just to hobble away to cross a barrier that hurts you even more all while we can just stick to the enemie by F2 at there location rooting them.

Yes it might be a bit tricky to get them caught in the first place but add in rune of the trpper and they will not see the banish coming.

Your ideas are cool and I take them in a second but it might make DH really OP.

Another cool OP idea:
WoR Trait change: Leap to taget area. relocate all foes in the area into the center of the nearest trap – #rekt

:-)

recent posts should tell you so I guess this is more of a rant then anything else.

The only thing taht is lacking in shield is #4 other then that having a pbaoe knock back on a traited 19sec CD that also absorbs proctiles and can be used to heal for a small amout on top of +180 Thougness and additional armor is not really a weak skill in my book. It is a very pvp/wvwvw orientated skill.

It will work well with Test of faith trap and does already with Purging flames in pve. But people are too stubborn to see this too.

but i guess if it does not produce high red numbers everything is weak.

lolzertank.1928:

Yeah I know it’s not that good, I mostly use scepter/focus as my swap weapon. but I just wanted to have it for might and swiftness between fights and stuff lol. and for zergs, mostly silverwastes and such x)

well then its pretty spot on.

however I feel that the might you gain is not the relevant at the moment. 12 stacks for 10 secs is not bad but the "preloading actually takes longer then most mobs last in the current state. taht leaes swiftness and I would rather pop some swiftness after kill food. you will have perma swiftness anyway. the times you do not you can cover with retreat.

They are very good and very popular because they give flexibility on your utilites and are very group support orientated.

I would say If you want to run without it, it will most likely be a very selfish build or centered around honor and shouts.

I actually find the daze intrigueing

but even the heal trap is now an interrupt + a blind potentially avoiding two attacks.
… of course a stun would be better but putting that on a Adept trait is a little too much to ask.

Looking at all the soruces of blinds we can produce as we speak. add in sigil of mischief, rune of the flock and blinding jeopardy there might be a cool 1vs1 spec there ….

Do not forget the guild halls … 1on1 will become another game mode we can build for.

HoT will be awsome …

Bezagron.7352:

One thought with regards to all elites as they are designed around a weapon & single utility set which is locked to that elite & that elite only. Base gameplay with the elite’s weapon & utilities need to function & sync together with only the minor traits & without any of the major traits.

The base gameplay does function without the major traits they just get better if you do.

A good portion on any of traits on the standard specialisations enhance weapon skills or utilites either by reducing cool downs or adding additional effects. In what way exactly is DH different from that? Infact they need to be focused on the utilites and the weapon since it has to be incorporated into one single traitline and cant spread out like Zeal/honor (which might be a mistake in itself).

At the moment each tier has an option that can be useful for a build that does not use any traps or the longbow.

The only thing left imo that needs changing is pure of sight. Personally i would change it to 5% damage within the threshold and reduce it to 400. Which also makes more sense because the closer you are to a bow the greater the force of impact is (at least on none barrage like application).

Linfang.1087:

I noticed the most recent elites like Bezerker and Dare Devil are much more defined, polished and create a sense of unique identity.

Well I do not think this is true.

you could also argue that Berserker does look cool but really it only emphasizes the adrenalin mechanic. you could also say this is just something they already had with a little twist. Especially Dare Devil has lots of thieves saying “we do not get anything new but only more of we already have”

DH on the other hand opens up a truly different playstyle where you will move in mid to far range kiting your opponents > if this is playstyle is worthwhile is a totally different matter.

if you want to sum it up:

keep the enemy away from you and if gets he/she close punish him/her. that is what LB +traps does well imo.

In terms of if this is still in line what the name Dragon hunter suggest I am not with you as well.

you do not take a dragon heads on. you lure him into a trap and attack from a far. Think about stone age mammoth hunt. drive them into a dead end and throw rocks from atop. you do not wrangle them down in close combat.

this really is all a matter of subjective interpretation and different opinions on the matter are unevoidable.

For me this is plain and simple and an awsome opportuinity to quote myself.
Hunters Fortification alone is a beauty that will open up several build opportunites.

Asmodal.6489:

… one of the most synegetic traits we will have IF it goes live!
I dreamed of a GM that removes condi when Aegis ends. this is much better!

Every traitline profits from it. Especially those that do nothing for blocking because now you can actually take them without having zero condi removal.

Mace #3 = 1x condi cleanse on 15sec CD
Focus #5 = up to 3x condi cleanse on 36 sec CD
Retreat = cleanses condi without investing in honor in honor
VoC = Aegis cures a condition
VoC active = its a shield now that can last for 5 secs clearing 4 condis
Valor minor = 1x condi cleanse at 50% hp
Valor minor 2 = recharges VoC so another condi cleanse
Protective reviver = Clear an additional condi
shelter = 2x condi cleanse on 30 sec cd
fragements of faith = produces kitten loads of aegis
hunters determination = produces the trap that produces a kitten load of aegis
two rune sets that produce aegis = just got better
boon conversion = fire turns into aegis which clears a condi

This trait essentially frees us from utility bound condition cleanses and if you do not want that it adds to it wtihout changing much around.

Defenders Dogma ties in beautifully now because a block will alos guarantee fast VoJ activation triggering cripple. > we now do not rely on the knock back to take advantage of the damage modifier essentially giving us 20% more damage beyond beyond 600 range that you can work for. add in 20% while being under the effect of aegis and you can still choose another traitline to up the damage or your sustain.

I got several builds I want to try… it will be glorious…. meta? mabe not but glorious.

YuiRS.8129:

Remove conditions when blocking attacks (1 per block, ICD 1 second). Receive 10% less damage when you have no conditions on you.

^Well, that doesn’t do anything. You can sneeze in this game without getting a debuff on yourself. Although it’s another buff to the only viable Guardian’s heal so I can’t complain too much.

*edit: With second reading I think you might have meant the 10% which are totally useless… if you meant the whole trait – sorry for nothing…

……………..

sorry but you have no clue.
we needed this badly. it is a solution for many problems and opens up a lot more build options simply because it removes our reliance on utility skills to cleanse condis.

This grandmaster trait is one of the most synegetic traits we will have IF it goes live!
I dreamed of a GM that removes condi when Aegis ends. this is much better!

Every traitline prifts from it. Especially those that do nothing for blocking because now you can actually take them without having zero condi removal.

Mace #3 = 1x condi cleanse on 15sec CD
Focus #5 = up to 3x condi cleanse on 36 sec CD
Retreat = cleanses condi without investing in honor in honor
VoC = Aegis cures a condition
VoC active = its a shield now that can last for 5 secs clearing 4 condis
Valor minor = 1x condi cleanse at 50% hp
Valor minor 2 = recharges VoC so another condi cleanse
Protective reviver = Clear an additional condi
shelter = 2x condi cleanse on 30 sec cd
fragements of faith = produces kitten loads of aegis
hunters determination = produces the trap that produces a kitten load of aegis
two rune sets that produce aegis = just got better
boon conversion = fire turns into aegis which clears a condi

Sometimes I wish this was reddit: I would downvote you so hard. ;-)

The changes are in total awsome. You can see that simply by the fact that it is hard to choose between them!

Doomdesire.9365:

Overall I like the new changes, however I’m concerned that with

Grandmaster – Heavy Light: Merged the aspect of Hunter’s Determination.
Longbow arrows knock back enemies that are within the range threshold (10s ICD). Gain stability (1 stack, 5 seconds) when you knock an enemy back in this fashion.

you won’t be able accurately time the stabo. IMO Hunter’s Determination should keep it’s base function when merged with Heavy Light (that is, grant stabo when you hit a target with true shot). Limited to 1 stack @ 5s. This way stabo can be timed better to prevent CCs, instead of having a large random factor.

Can’t wait to see the changes in bwe3 though, keep up the good work!

You should not be concerned. what this means is a 50% uptime one-time CC shield.
this is hugh. 5 secs means you can boost this easily to 7,5s with boon duration if you are in for that. heck imagine a Herold next to it its perma stability.

In addition we have 2 on demand stability skills on top of that. and a consecration that pumps stability like nothing else.

trap ward and holt retreat are awsome!

I am for that.

replace the radius increase with symbolic avanger. personally however i would move this trait to zeal line anyways

1. swap writ of perisistance with shattered aegis
2. change SA to include wrathful spirit and “when aegis ends remove a condition”
3. move protectors impact to zeal line
4. add a relevant Adept trait to Honor Line (maybe +5% damage when endurance is not full)

Guardian class needs alternatives ways to remove conditions that are not tied to utilities. Otherwise we will always end up with the same builds. Tieing it to Aegis would be a really good solution imo especially for dragonhunter fragment trap.

This will maintain the synergy between valor and honor for altruistic healing even without using shouts and has still some group cleanse through communal defense even though it cannot be targeted which is needed to prevent it from being op. retreat gets a cool buff too with the downside taht you can not reduce its cooldown.

and since I completely got carried away change perfect inscriptions too make signet of resolve remove an extra condition for every signet slotted that is off CD. You can remove the light aura from that trait since it has close to none synergy for the guardian anyways.

this trait should cleanse one condition on the gurad and give 3 secs of resistance for each virtue activation on 5 targets. IT would instantly become the top choice grand master and would actualy deserve a place in this tier.

you are spot on with the condi cleanse on the trap trait. I wouldnt even limit it to movement condis. The lack of condi cleanse and stun break on traps is the reason they will see no game play in competitive scenarios and will always remain part of “fun builds”.

Defenders Dogma works well with mace #3, shattered aegis, VoC and shelter+Symbols and adept zeal scepter trait. That is quite some synergy but none of them are tied to a meta build which makes it a niche trait that you have to take. However it does not hurt. Basically this trait causes you first attack after being engaged to burn which is important to take advantage of damage and precision modifiers.

all These effects are not flashy but that does not make the Minor trait lackluster.

You are Spot on for the Rest. We Need some tweaking.

Hi guys,

With the BWE1 coming to an end I would like To share a build.
I feel that the general Feedback for the DH is in the lines of “fun but not meta” to “total waste” – the latter strongly tied to the virtue issue which needs to be adressed.

Before the Beta there where already “concerns” that DH is garbage without LB and traps suck. I was always a defender of the specialisation yet I have to acknowledge some existing flaws. However this build is also ment to Show how you can make “garbage” hurt quite a bit.

The builds name Shattered Dogma incorporates the two key traits defenders dogma and shattered aegis and I found it fitting given the current mood.

The runes we will run in this build are not that unusual if you have been toying with condi guards pre specialisation: Rune of the Guardian. (Rune of the defender works too but Takes the build a pinch to much in a differen direction)

What this combo does is simple: turn every aegis into a dd spell that causes up to 3 stacks of burn (Single target). 2 off block and one from the immediate damage from the shattered aegis which triggers defenders dogma and uses it right away.
Since mace #3 will create the same result (block then damage) you will enter most fights with a considerable chunk of damage and/or forcing out their condi cleanse right at beginning. Another pillar that sprung the idea to this build is the fragments of faith trap.

I found the build working very well in all game modes (dungeons aside) given the short testing window. It rewards active play with Blocks and has zeal and dragonhunter at its core. It can be altered quickly with the change of the third traitline and really anything goes. I am not going to recommend this build for any gamemode in particular since it is far from meta. It can hold its own in spvp (virtue build Variant + carrion obviously) and if you want to make it work it is a great and fun alternative. I like the radianxe variant best.

3 stack build (+radiance):
http://tinyurl.com/olf4laz

2 stack build (+valor):
http://tinyurl.com/nt3l8uv

2 stack build (+honor):
http://tinyurl.com/nk2kd9q

2 stack build (virtues):*
http://tinyurl.com/pe79f56

Some side notes:

Dragonhunter
Traits are 3, 2, 2 across all variants

Condi duration
I am a condi duration addict if I can get 100% I get it. For burn its Either 100% or 50%. however since we use rune of the guardian squeezing it to 2sec burn off block is awsome but to some probably not worth it. So feel free to adjust. Just be aware that the rune does not have a ICD so shelter and VoC are able to hurt a lot.

aoe potential
going for permeating wrath is a good choice however i found that supreme Justice is overkill which is great since we can take absolute resolution. Even though you lose condidamage and a burn off block there virtues are full of stuff that make up for it. Even Retaliatory Subconscious is a serious contender now.

Fragments of Faith
If you are solo dropping this baby means get the kitten away or die for any enemy.

Stalling
This build has tons of options to stall for time through active defense to get abilities off CD. The beauty: the more you stall the more it hurts the attacker.

the Long Bow
Not needed in this build but it just makes sense to use the benefits it gets from DH traitline. It is also the better weapon against ranged classes.

in before
The build lacks condi removal and sustain. It has the means against a lot of attacks but beware of condis. Use the cleanses you have wisely. However this build excells if you know whats coming at you so block stuff that applies condi and cleanse what you cant avoid.

Its glassy and i like it

Let me know what you think.

Sorry but now I can not take you seriously anymore. Knock back not valid but buffing makes it OP? Taking away a pull that stacks enemies is “not losing” anything? Ignoring a fact that you created the first and only utility exclusively tied to a weapon is very questionable. Your Instant Action term speaks for itself … not realizing that their combined effects Are too strong does not call for defending but coming up with numbers that would be acceptable.

Lets Come back After the weekend … This Is too much fantasy

Dinks.2478:

Darknicrofia.2604:

Oh man those generalizations. “Nobody” is going to use traps or longbow? I didn’t realize when you spoke for me or for every other person too. The kitten class hasn’t even been played live once yet, you have ZERO clue on how the traps will affect the metagame or how much of a game changer a heavy hitting 1200 CC/power weapon will help guardians.

But keep speaking for everyone anyways, you do not look anything like a fool.

No, I can 100% without a doubt say for a fact that the traps are useless and now and will be useless at launch. I can also say that you are absolutely deluded if you’re calling the dragon hunter longbow as anet has presented it a heavy hitting power weapon. It is a piece of kitten with no real damage capability. I bet you also run guardian staff and think that hits hard too.

A crap ranged weapon with 85% damage modifiers …. We will see.

Funny. i toyed around with an offensive Signet Build für wvwvw Roaming and it works quite well. schame Signets trait that cures a condi is gone.

In I wished #2 in Rune of radiance had no ICD. Would solve the swiftness problem with a fun mechanic.

Silv.9207:

In sPvP Meditation meta will never change. If you want to inflict damage, you Have to use meditation why you’r choice will be a direct or condition offensive amulet, that don’t give you enough defence (toughness, vitality or both) to fight a enemy.
With the LB you can chose at last to sacrifice Judge’s Intervention for a trap (there’s one that inflict a lot of damage summoning swords that inflict damage when a enemy cross over it, very good for a fight in the mid).
But there will never be a guardian in spvp witout meditation or without shouts that heal.

Guardian have not enough health to be able to chose utilities that don’t give him life.

Anyway, yes, I hope they will chose to give us more trap based traits. Actually all traits focus on virtues and longbow. Good, but we have already a entire traitline that focus on virtues, we don’t need another one.

well i do not agreed entirely since you can technically create a build that does not require either shouts or meditation – it will just be not as good. and of course never say never.

The core problem you described remains though:
medis and shouts are both tied to the same benefits.

Sustain + condi clear + x
(x being either damage or boon support)
the combining features just make them too good and efficient in what they do.

however shouts require two traitlines where medis only need one making medis the go-to choice imo.

I also think you spinned out of control here. I do not want to bash your affort because it can be fun to spin things around but I also feel that neither the tme nor your assumption are right.

Your first reason is really yet to be prooven valid. you do not know if traps do not work underwater at release. pretty sure anet will see to that. they can work as spheres and having stationary objects float where you released them is already a thing with engineers. on top of it … who cares about underwater. I dont get your second reason against traps at all. the DH traps will be absolutley fantastic in keep defenses. my guess is you only have a gripe about the delayed activation – which is a valid point to have but a personal preference rather then a problem of the skill itself.

Dragonhunter is obviously a control and ranged dps focused class. you twisted that way to much by removing hunters ward, the LB knock back and so on. On top you missed a lot of implications imo.

two utilites now have cripple and multiple hit attacks one does vurnability and the other is a little supporty. That is redundant and OP at the same time in combo with permeating wrath.

how wings of resolve an throw dirt work so well together that is worth mentioning is beyond me. giving the DH a utility that he gets as a minor by taking radiance is redundant. this thing is not needed at all if the bow keeps its blind.

your Wardens faith is tied to bow which is a no go imo. there are no utilities ingame that are specifically tied to a weapon. if you do not use bow this is completely useless. on top it encourages bad play and is again totally worthless if you do not want or need to pop virtues(condi guard) or the effect is to marginal (VoC). The mechanic is interesting though but it should work regardless of the weapon – but in this case it would be extremely OP again. Maybe this should be a trait and not a utility.

you nerfed the elite the pull is awsome – again CC removed.

All in all I think making a DH a cripple monster will be more boring then actual CC. I really think you missed your goal making it more dynamic. I think it would get more boring with these changes.

Ghotistyx.6942:

I could see a particular zerg busting build develop from DH traps. It won’t be super useful or survivable in zergs, but it’ll have is niche and perform very well.

• Radiance, Dragonhunter, Virtues
• Full Carrion with perhaps Scepter+Torch/Longbow.
• Find a chokepoint you can guarantee the zerg will cross. (Ideal example, defending a tower or keep).
• Place 2-4 traps at the chokepoint (like behind a door/gate)
• As soon as you have people on your traps, cast Longbow 5 to potentially snare
• If you traited scepter (Zeal instead of Radiance), immediately swap to get those delicious might stacks.
• Lay a smite or other aoe down for good measure.
• kite at ranged and watch the world burn

Particularly with trapper runes, you can add in some mixups. Are the traps directly behind the door? Are the actually on the stairs? Maybe the zerg is being patient and waiting; so drop em in stealth right under their noses. Even if it’s not incredibly successful, the threat of there. I’d expect zergs to potentially change their tactics because of the potential presence of a few of these.

And here is the problem. For most of what you described you do not even need stealth. On top to lay a trap under someones nose while stealthed you have to place a trap beforehand. Finding a situation where you can utelize both traps might be difficult (but rewarding). If you can not manage that or get revealed because the trap triggers prematurely then you waste a utility slot for 3 secs of stealth.

I think the traps will shine a little more in roaming and small men skirmishes where you have more overview of who goes where.

Sylent.3165:

This angers me very very much!!!

I was not aware of this and have been trying to buy one for weeks!!! So my offer in trading post finally got me one for 800g even though if I knew they were back I just would of bought the thing with my claim ticket!

Talk about losing 800g when I could of got free! Anet really needs to let people know about this stuff sooner

it actually would not matter.
If you would have been at workat the time of the anouncement it would have been the same result.

heck I completed the gallant skin collection because they were so fricking cheap it cost me 800g to buy them all. If i would have been logged in I would have bought two skins and instantly sold them to the remaining orders making a nice profit.

I think what we all learned today is to cancel high orders on skins on tuesday morning.

Well I hate to say it but that was your decision.

I really feel for the people that had orders out that got completed right after the patch hit without being able to remove their orders due to work. pretty much sucks if you pay 600g for a skin which goes down to 200g 30 minutes later.

Saiyan.1704:

Black Box.9312:

It’s really not going to be that good, guys…

You said the exact same thing about burn guards… lol.

just came here to say the same…

;)

pretty sure Dragonhunter will be meta for dps on guardian class as well as roamer.
however traps do have issues. they take up slots we need for condi cleanse and mobility while bringing none of that.

so again: we will see

imperial.4962:

What about for PvE? Could someone make a decent dmg sword/torch build using, let’s say, knight’s/ rampager’s gear?

well for PVE i would also simply replace the meta build from obal with sword/torch.

Why you would put knights/ rampager in the mix is beyond me. All the way sinsiter and you are good to go.

pretty sure sword would be more dps on sigle target anyways since the chain will produce 2 procs instead of 1 on mace on top of it being much faster therefore compensating the symbol ticks.

OT:
Torch is in a very fine spot imo. yes #5 could use something but i would be happy with just cleansing one or two condition at the beginning. could open up a utility spot for cleansing in other game modes.

Torch has always proced VoJ a lot but trhough burn as a stscking condition it a got substantial DPS boost.

so really any added benefit would be icing on the cake.

Gav.1425:

Silhouette.5631:

Guardian here. Glad to see another class with mobility as bad as us. Welcome brothers. Also please don’t ever say we have more swiftness options than you. Seriously. Thank you.

Retreat – swiftness shout
Save Yourselves – swiftness shout
Staff – swiftness aoe
GS – leap on a short cd
JI – instant teleport-to-tgt 1200 range
Sword – shadowstep-esque teleport-to-tgt

What the hell are you talking about?

actual viable swiftness that does not force you to stand still or uses up a utility slot for 50% uptime.

Voramoz.6790:

Yet Revenant is brand new, untested, undiscovered, and a concept of what it lacks or a reimagining seems incredibly premature. Even damagingly premature.

no. there will be new specialisations in the future. Until then you can think of it as fair of having access to as much options as an old class.

Voramoz.6790:

PS: you have to admit locking tomes of knowledge off for a while after launch for Revenants is a good idea lol.

I do certainly not.
Simply because it would make no difference and be just anoying. People who want the endgame experience will rush to level 80 in less then 24h anyway and basically have a bad time doing so because they are forced to something they do not want and only consumes time and money.

EoTM will be filled with revenant trains, people will get frustrated in dungeons because everyone swaps to rev at boss, and normal players will be fed up with revs who do not know there class anyways even in standard encounters.

there is no gain from locking the tomes other then prolonging the frustration of the entire playerbase and the time when a player actually starts casring to get to know its new class.

Just eat a spring roll

DeathPanel.8362:

Saiyan.1704:

Burn on block doesn’t do well in zerg fests at all. Your 3 burn procs on Focus, a max of 3 burn procs on Shelter, will get split up amongst 20+ different people.

That’s just a minor part of the build. Most of the burn comes from traited VOJ.

You could run rune of the guardian to get that burn from block. probably no worth it though.