Guild Wars 2

because none of extremes work?
full tank thief doesn’t work, they die just as fast and do no dmg
full dps thief doesn’t work either even if you just go around decap, you still gonna get one shot by some wild mesmer

Constant target dropping is the whole idea of stealth/clones…… let’s not make this game more braindead than it is already.

Oh and idk why you people even use auto targetting, i just use tab and mouse and been doing more than fine~

The problem is definitely between monitor and chair.

Continuum shift shouldn’t completely refund everything mesmer used up during the time frame after activation of the continuum split, it should have rng, kind of like thief improvisation…. i tried chrono during BWE and it just seemed too rewarding to get everything back.

I am not sure if it is a bug, but i wasn’t able to destroy continuum rift (or affect it by anything), enemy should be able to do it for counterplay imo.

fire trait line and dd generally need some nerfing, scepter/focus and tempest on other hand could use some love

If thief becomes completely unplayable in pvp enviroment, i will just move on to new game. I tried other classes, they are just too boring for me~

it would be a long list, maybe i will get time to write it down
few things need to happen:
- weaponsets need to have better synergy between spells and generally be more useful (dp is great example how all rounded weapon set can be that is why it is meta)
- acro and cis need complete rework, given the current state of thief and other classes they are total lackluster….
- remake/buff anything that is not the holy trio of refuge/shs/agi or inf siget…. really other utitilities are just underwhelming in many cases…. there are long posts from [TEEF] guild with quite few good suggestions how traps for example could be more team supporty

Either event needs to last longer (weeks) or amount of blooms you get should be increased. It is simply impossible to get enough blooms for 1 item w/o botting and i am sure it is not what Anet would encourage.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Like every other rogue class with invisibility powers, it’s fate is always to get nerfed into the ground at some point in its existence. Stealth by it’s very nature separates the wary and sharp from the dullminded because it forces the player to predict rather than react.

I actually remember that one comical moment when rogue representation in wow fell to/under 1% due to constant nerfs and absurd power creep and blizz devs actually admitted that they can’t figure out why the class was so unpopular xD

Not sure what to hope for in gw2, i am experiencing déjà-vu atm <_<

Taunt certanly should be avoidable by dodges/evades. My guess is it suffers from same issue as blinding dissipation: they forgot to check avoidable flag.

1. Leave wvw or reroll other class if you want to fight anyone there
2. go to pvp
3. find a team of good players (preferably mostly dd eles)
4. let them carry you while you play their pet
5. profit

i am dead serious :| i really wouldn’t even bother engaging any of the classes right now, besides thief ofc (that under assumption of same skill level and proper builds)

IF i had literary no choice by all means and had to fight anyway, the list would go (pvp perspective):
1. mesmers – because if you let mesmer free cast they gonna wipe your whole team
2. thief, because easy to kill (as thief)
Next ones are kind of tricky, it really depends on their builds and team situation
3. ranger – same reason as mesmer, however puts less pressure than mesmer and is easier to kill
4. squishier revenant – if you manage to avoid their iwin buttons you can actually kill them
5. necro – same thing as mesmer, except necro is easier to focus due to lack of moblity and stealth but takes longer to kill
6. warriors – can be doable with blinds and if they don’t have rampage
7. engi – can die under focus fire, just have to make sure not to get hit by anything and put pressure between invuls
8. bunker guard – if you are bored~~~~
9. condi ranger – eeeek, can be won by some miracle if using hs at right times, avoiding all CCs, kiting etc.
10. condi/bunker revenant – really really bad idea, have to kite mallyx and stack poison/CC outside of it.
11. medi/burn guards – very bad idea to engage…. frankly would suggest to afk somewhere else
12. eles – just…. don’t even bother; too much of everything on too low CD… just uninstall game. You know that undestructable training golem in HotM? Yea that’s dd ele, expect they can kill you pretty fast if you are not careful.

Funny enough it is already happening… in tournaments.

Uhhh my main account with few thousand games is proof that matchmaking forces you to 50% win rate by all means xD

apharma.3741:

You know, it’s funny people talk about the burst from stealth. I worked it out in the PvP forums, mug with backstab and executioner will do about the same as a mirror blade mind wrack assuming Mesmer gets the full mind wrack damage bonus.

Interesting thing is that a thief can follow it up with either a 4k auto, 4k shadowshot and then do the backstab again in 5s time. A Mesmer can only follow it up with iZerker and mind stab and then must wait 12s. They could switch and blurred frenzy but I would assume competent players have dodged out of the way by that point, and no, they won’t be downed by it either even running marauder and having light armour.

As for the comment earlier about “you can’t just take one thing from a class and slap it on another”, they’re kinda doing that all across the expansion, wells, physical skills, thief is getting Mesmer type interrupt and just as Mesmer stealth is inferior to thieves so to is theirs slightly inferior to mesmer.

As for PU, it’s fine as is. It’s a GM, build defining trait which is exactly what ANet wanted. It wasn’t fine at +1 second as only 1 build in 1 game mode ever took it. Before the boon nerf power builds could take it for the guarantee of something defensive when they stealth, afterwards it was not worth it at all which is why they went for IP as being able to use distortion whenever was more viable.

wat? are we playing same game?
also, once again completely ignoring the fact that bs is single target with very limited time frame, positional requirement, can be blinded while shatter isn’t/can’t~

As long as devs believe and spread their propaganda about “+1 is OP” on stream there will no buffs. The impression i got so far from anet streams is that devs think this class is really strong because of +1. It is hopeless case.

Quadox.7834:

I would like to know why some people are defending this. Say an ele gets stuck between a mesmer, a theif and a marauder engi with no way to get away, They CC, immob, coordinate a spike but suddenly the already hard-to-kill ele get’s vamp rune invuln, survives the burst, heals up. Grats, the vamp just carried the match. Or say a mesmer or a thief running marauder amulet is out of position and gets spiked down. Instead of being punished for their poor gameplay, they get invuln, move to the team, get healed, and bam- the game just became about 30 times easier to play even with full squishy specs.

Go play a thief with defensives w/o vamp rules vs organized team. Please record it so we can all see your glorious skills and how it is player issue that they get instagibbed.

Only advantage i ever saw was something like 5 of the same class with same name like IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII. Even that is not an issue as usually i am too concentrated on staying alive thus watching their characters than reading their names. Most of the time i am not even aware of names tbh. If it is team fight, i just call class (necro at home) or something like that.
As far as pet/player names go, i do only ranked with standard models on and never had issue with distinguishing real player from pets/clones etc.

You are right OP.
Uneducated non-thief players claiming that +1 is a role and thus class shouldn’t be able to have any chance in 1v1 vs any other class – is a normal thing.

Problem is devs also support this whole “+1 =OP” mentality (you can see them advertising that propaganda on POI stream). I get the impression that untill this class is completely destroyed for the sake of mythical +1 role they won’t stop.

Oddly enough mesmers are not affected even though they fill exactly same “role”. I am wondering why are they even allowed to discriminate one class ( and by that, part of the player base) so much, i thought they weren’t allowed :/ But then again, even if we go and write a complain letter about devs work to customer support, they wouldn’t do anything (or just throw a bann since we are not allowed to discuss company internal work).

I find it hilarious that someone actually dares to say that SA is passive considering it heavily relies on stealth: last time i checked only passive way of gaining stealth was either LR (which nobody uses) or through teammate (SA traits work with own stealth mainly). All other ways (which 99%) of gaining stealth actually require some player action (BP+HS, blowing long CDs like refuge)… HOW THE HELL IS THIS PASSIVE? Is pressing sigil of agility to clear condis also passive now?

You know what is passive? Gaining endure pain when your HP reach certain threshold (warriors). When your condis get automatically cleared and you gain might stacks, when you reach 3 condis on yourself (eles). When condis get automatically cleared in periods of time (engis) <<<THIS IS PASSIVE. So don’t throw this absolute horse crap “oh noes SA is soo passive” around.

Reason why SA is picked a lot is because it actually offers team support and crit and acro just suck. Also, all other classes got massive boosts in damage department and we just can’t stay alive longer than 2 sec w/o SA. It doesn’t mean SA is broken and needs nerfing, it means that acro and crit need to be as useful as trickery/SA/DA and other classes need some nerfing to bring them on level of thieves (since non-thieves think the class is “fine”).

I would argue maybe pre-patch that SA is strong (i was big fan of CS) but given how much buffing other classes received and how much nerfing Anet did to thieves i am sry to say but SA is anything but strong in comparison and is frankly needed. If classes lose some of their passive dmg and defensive multiplies, baseline traits (hi mesmers), get rebalanced more around risk vs reward, then we can talk about SA.

P.S. also, pre-patch and FG nerf sd was absolutely brainless, so don’t try to defend that crap. I am glad it got nerfed, it should have been, Anet simply went really wrong way about acro and thieves generally, they pretty much overdid it for the sake of drd.

Happens to me too, pretty inconsistent though, sometimes they show up sometimes they don’t. I do see red circle, just not the effect. Usually things like ring of fire, refuge and co.

I still don’t see it being better in conquest even if you play it perfectly, you just don’t have the same team support as (oh cmon forum censure) SA.

Lettuce.2945:

I had no issues fighting a reaper as an acro/dd/trickery s/d + sb thief with no dodge trait. Sounds like an adjustment issue to me. The hard counter that I see to thieves atm is revenants with the sword 3. Even on acro/dd, can’t dodge the entire burst. That skill is so unskillful, it procs even if it misses on the first hit which rewards bad gameplay.

I actually found cele eles easier to fight with the new spec.

I felt that s/d acro was a lot more viable with the new traits especially in tpvp compared to d/p SA.

I had totally opposite experience. I tried sd sa/drd/trickery, it just doesn’t work vs organized teams and or anyone with some brain. On other hand i had no issues beating those very drd thieves on sa dp :|

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Chapell.1346:

the viability of P/p

Clearly player skill issue

topkek.

Chapell.1346:

My declaration of war

War against Thieves in favor of keeping them just as they are? If so then topkek.

Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Topkek.

Thief is fine anywhere but the pvp scene, which is mainly comprised of conquest.
Telling someone to practice when their only gripe is that they dont have the sustainability to do so feasibly is what I can only chalk up as great ignorance.

I’ll say it again: We’re asking for time to fight, not free bags. It’s shocking how many people think that SB #5 should disqualify thieves from being able to do anything -but- port, and even more shocking how people shy away from taking as valid any claims that other classes can be just as mobile without also being trash at 1v1.

And for those of you regurgitating the “But thief is used in hi tier tournaments so it must be fine!” Stop it. That’s stark false cause. Thief being used in any respect does not mean it is fine at all.

Thing is, the meta thief build as it is can’t have more sustain, top players are already calling it unkillable unless they make mistakes. If you mean non meta builds, i agree.

Again, I have not said anything about builds. I don’t think I’ve mentioned a specific weapon except SB and its #5, because that seems to be the linchpin that is preventing people from thinking that thieves should not be free kills when encountered alone.

I don’t care about meta anything. The class itself needs a way to sustain.

Your first statement intrigues me, though. Who specifically said thief is “unkillable” unless they make mistakes, and was it before or after the recent patch?

The combo of SA and vamp makes them super survivable, but nevermind that, since you don’t care for meta, that’s fine. Thief as a class has way too low sustain for bruiser playstyle outside stealth

I’d still like to address the meta build, even though I am not focusing on it.

SA is nice, ill give you that. It could be better, but its good as is.

Vamp is an external factor that people are looking to have nerfed anyway, so I wouldn’t say that makes thief viable in itself. If they nerf vamp, not even the burst playstyle thief has will be viable.

There’s a lot of little tweaks that could be made to help us just plain live.

SA cannot be better, the traitline is kittening strong man. If anything acro should be the “bruiser” traitline, since daredevil does the dodges.

The only problem with that is: no matter how many defensive traits thieves pick, they will still die in 2-3 hits. Dropping all offensive traits just gets you killed faster because most of thief defensive power is… offensive, putting pressure; they lack stab/invuls/blocks etc. , mirriad of passives like other classes have and scale very bad with defensive stats.

Investing into offensives atm also doesn’t really reward much as thieves somehow ended up doing in average less damage than a lot of classes/builds thanks to uneven buffing/nerfing across classes.
Just a simple example: before patch you could actually fight and beat ele if you timed ice stab, if you interrupted fire, blinded/stealthed air and put pressure/poison in water/earth. The whole tactic went into bin because anet decided to throw more strong passives at eles (see fire trait line) + maxing out 3 traits lines is possible now. Thief on other hand had acro/sa/crit strikes nerfed.

Kocoff.7582:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Go back to the Revenant posts when first released or the first trials of the Necromancer.

Read them today. They all went from Gloom and doom to this profession is useless to wow…Give it some time. Thief was released for tests 5 days ago and no neither Revenant or Necromancer was fixed 5 days later.

It’s been 3 years and Thief is not yet fixed. How much longer do we have to wait?

Not long at all actually. The waiting time is almost over and we get either get a fix or we all break.

It is already all broken, all that keeps thief in pvp is sb5. Once elite spec go live, rip thieves (unless they completely rework drd, which won’t happen).

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

On the PVE side I still see plenty of thieves. The rarest class by far is the engineer., which is weird because I’d argue strongly that it is the second best class in the game.

But in PVP I can understand the absence. With their new buffs, mesmers out-thief the thief. For awhile the reverse was true, though, so I guess it is their time to shine.

Classes shouldn’t be balanced around “it is their time to shine”.

Amante.8109:

I’m over how Thieves “used to” be, both in reality and people’s perceptions. I just want the profession to be fun and versatile in the PRESENT. Buff and rework some skills and traits, throw in some higher base HP, and we’d have a lot more to work with build-wise.

If they’re willing to give us a FULL revamp (which they won’t, for time and other resource reasons), they can take Shortbow #5 in exchange for becoming more well rounded. It’s obviously a design albatross that keeps us playing waterboy as it is.

I brought pre-patch as an example that whole “+1/must suck otherwise too OP” is baseless argument.

Pre-patch thieves were able to 1v1 some classes – were they really that OP? No. But you were rewarded if you played well. Right now it is not the case. Playing well means to not engage any combat.
Why are thieves not allowed to be in pre-patch state?

@ResJudicator.7916: thieves don’t want to be super rambo carry there problem rose when bruisers ended up having way too good moblity and pretty high dmg which put whole mobile glassy roamer in question. Either those classes (hello eles, wars and co.) need some dmg/moblity nerfs or thieves need some defensive/dmg buffing(also once again where do mesmers fit in this whole “+1/must suck in 1v1” logic????).
Idc which way but atm the allocation of risk/reward is waaaayy too uneven and trying to justify it with +1 “role” is total horse crap propaganda from uneducated (or) non-thief players.

And just as side note: having 2 of any class (even mesmers, which some teams ran in tourneys) is fine and actually increases winning chances in some cases; having 2 thieves on team is absolutely terrible and any additional thief just increases losing chances in extreme exponential rates -> THIS just screams that there is something very wrong with class design.
Anet had such a great opportunity to finally give a thief a bruiser build with team support (see staff monk) instead they just nerfed acro to give acro 2.0….

since it is pvp related made a post about it when beta started https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Revenant-steal/first#post5465342

no response yet… i am assuming they forgot or don’t have time?

Still waiting to see any justification for the state of mesmers atm when they fill exact same role (+1) which apprently requires you to lose any capability to 1v1 yet mesmers are not affected by that trade off.

But, i see plenty of class discrimination by players that don’t use the thief class. What did it teach me? Apparently we should go to sections of classes that don’t perform so well and tell them they are “fine” and they should “l2p”. We reached the new level of toxicity and player harassment.
Worst part we actually have devs repeating same crap about +1 as some kind of mantra when they talk about thieves on POI yet don’t even dare to mention it when the discussion is about ANY OTHER CLASS in game.
Add to that the so called patch notes with changes to thieves that were NEVER implemented, total joke of an elite spec. I honestly can’t shake off a feeling that we are not wanted here and getting discriminated from all sides.

- You go in match, oh look 2 thieves on team: 99% of the time team will ask one of the thieves to switch. You don’t do it? You get verbally harassed, garanteed.
- You actually engage 1v1 even vs possibly bad player: 70% of the time someone on your team will harass you about it.
- You actually managed to beat someone or helped your teammates or rezzed someone: 50% garanteed someone will complain that you went to this point or enemy will spit toxic crap at you.
- You look at thief POI: dev responsible for thieves doesn’t know the traits, tells us with excitement how thieves are really really strong because they can +1 etc.
- You look at patch notes: hey guize we gonna nerf withdraw CD but it will receive tiny healing buff JK, almost 3 months later withdraw still didn’t get the healing buff. Oh and while we are at it, enjoy the backstab bug because we didn’t bother to log on thief EVEN ONCE.

I am pulling here some outworldly juking stunts to land measy 3k backstab… meanwhile other classes…………………………… yeah. “Fine” guize.

and then wild thief appears and rezzes that guy :P

(are thieves nice guys irl !!?)

tobascodagama.2961:

ronpierce.2760:

They show every build on both teams before each match, and yes, PU Mesmer is the standard meta right now.
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_PU_Shatter

I’m really glad you linked MetaBattle, because it nakedly reveals your fundamental fallacy: the complete inability to distinguish between “in meta” and “overpowered”.

the whole point was: someone above claimed that PU has only place in wvw… which is wrong~

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cynz.9437:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Play a different class.

Even good thieves down against most classes in the current meta.

what a lie

Good thieves OP, need a few fingers chopped off or something.

aye, havn’t you seen all the thief threads and everyone claiming how OP ans “fine” thieves are xD

i think someone managed to get 50 stacks of burning with that spell and ele ring of fire if i recall correctly lol

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Play a different class.

Even good thieves down against most classes in the current meta.

what a lie

edit: need to add /sarcasm to it

winters wonderland… just because other players get you killed

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cynz.9437:

um… most mesmers run PU in pvp….

Who are these “most mesmers”, and why aren’t they running more effective PvP builds?

PU is part of the effective builds atm…… i am talking about mesmers i see in tourneys~
idk about HJs

a chore…. we are an unpleasant chore

edit: i just realized something…. their entire thief balance/design is based on feedback from Ruby that supposely mains thief….. it suddenly all makes sense :|

um… most mesmers run PU in pvp….

Here is my suggestion: delete entire spec. 90% of it is bad so frankly it is just better to completely remake it.
- it is clunky and slow
- it offers literary 0 varierity to the class
- it didn’t fix any issues thieves had for 3 years

someone actually believes mesmers are worse than thieves…..

WEXXES.2378:

Cynz.9437:

1. don’t play thief, it can’t 1v1 atm and one of the hardest professions in game

There are some builds that are complete cheese in 1v1, making it virtually unkillable.

you mean pd? i hardly doubt new player can pull it off

yeah beta just confirmed for me that thief class is undesired and unpleasant chore for dev team ~
staff is too slow, bad animations, no utility, dmg is meh
phys skills are ok but so clunky to use and are actually pretty bugged
i don’t even want to start on drd GM traits….
overall spec is lackluster (for pvp) imo

yeah you are being very useful to team by camping stealth half of the match~

you are lucky if you get 6k tbh
other classes just have either high access to protection and/or weakness + most builds we see atm in pvp are bruisers
that is why i find it beyond hilarious when someone actually complains about backstab damage when it is very rarely reason why someone died

i loved this, make them eat own crap xD

1. don’t play thief, it can’t 1v1 atm and one of the hardest professions in game
2. it is normal to get destroyed when you are new to pvp… it takes time to learn classes and learn how to fight them…. if you have issue with ranger, try to play them and see what they can do and what their weaknesses are….
3. check http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki , it has most common pvp builds with short guide

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Thief main here.
So, whilst I’m not some pro PvPer by any means, I do know what “role” I have and I’m able to carry out that “role” pretty well. So please, no “l2p” in response to my comment.
I’d like to point out that Thieves are NOT asking to be A tier again, like DD ele is right now. That’s silly and if any Thieves ARE asking for that then just ignore them, I’m not interested in being stupid powerful.
However, every single time I read discussions like this about the +1 and decap-bot role that Thief has been, undeniably, FORCED into in PvP, I can’t help but sense some hypocrisy.
I’d love for any of the various Ele, Necro, Guardian, etc players here that are defending the current state of Thief to be assigned the same role as us for just a single day and see if you enjoy that experience, feel rewarded and engaged in the match, and to see how long it takes for you to close your game clients and create topics such as this. I’d love for you to experience the feeling of being flamed at by your teammates for attempting to 1v1 or contest a point without being handheld. I’d love for you to know how it feels to aimlessly run around the maps, standing in a circle for a couple of seconds and then moving onto the next circle to do the exact same for the entirety of the match, and occasionally fitting in the odd revive and stomp that your teammate has provided for you. To spend the whole game effectively running away from fights because you know that no matter how well you play, you’re the only player in your team that just cannot hold your own, and that you’re the most expendable player because there are other professions on the team that can fulfill your role if needs-be.
If you had that experience playing as an ele or a necro or whatever else, I can almost guarantee that the majority of you would feel far from satisfied with the viability of your profession. It’s really easy to sit here and say that Thief should be totally fine with the way they HAVE to play in PvP when your own favourite profession is suffering from none of the same issues.

Couldn’t say this better.

1. engi is not as good as prepatch anymore (sry, they were as faceroll as it gets)
2. eles/mesmers are broken atm
3. wait for leagues, hopefully matchmaking will be bit better and you will be facing oppnents of your level

um it is not new….. you should have seen what frost bow + time warp can do vs entire team <_<

I think the real issue is LF/might generation while in reaper form.

DaShi.1368:

What I’m seeing here is that some players want alternative roles for thieves other than their current. What I’m not seeing is suggestions for that. However, I will add that the Daredevil seems to be an attempt to include a new role for a thief. If upset thief players are truly honest about wanting their class to perform better in pvp and not be OP, then they should focus their efforts on getting adjustments to the Daredevil specialty and how it interacts with the current thief skills and traits. The beta tests are the perfect opportunities for this. Making vague complaints about how thieves are underpowered and other classes are OP, is not going to make the thief any better.

Um there are countless threads with suggestions (including team support changes) that you could probably make book off. You know what happend? After 3 years of posts they finally managed to move LR from minor trait. THAT IS it.

Drd is total garbage.