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Thief Suggestions... From a Non-Thief

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Your whole argument fails and reeks of bias and ignorance on the subject matter.
give and take scenarios you like to spout on about.

As far as I can tell, yours does as well. I know that thief isn’t in the best place right now, and I know that other classes are not terribly well balanced either, but that is not an excuse for us to become just as overpowered. You want to be given something without compensation, and I understand the mentality behind that. Since every other class is doing so well, it is only fair for us to be brought up to their level right? The problem with this is that the issue with thief extends to much more than a simple number tweak. The CORE of our class puts us in the situation where we will either be completely overpowered at what we do, or completely useless.

Again, suppose ANet grants us our wishes and decides to revert all the nerfs to out class. What is thief then? Thief is a class where the skilled player can choose to only engage in favorable conditions, and disengage from all unfavorable ones. Is that balanced? Maybe that is what the thief flavor is supposed to be but in terms of game balance that is NOT fun to play against. If we are to become reasonable fighters, we’re going to have to give up something, and that something will probably have to be our ridiculous mobility. To keep our theme of mobility, I would like to see us become sprinters and travel very quickly across shorter distances, but fall behind, say, a warrior who I would consider a marathon runner. As it stand, we are currently both, which I feel is the main barrier to us getting buffs.

First you revert the nerfs to the defensive trait lines and thief is FAR from OP. Even before June 23rd thieves were UP.

Warriors already out pace thieves over long distances. So according to you no changes to thieves mobility is needed.

In today’s game my proposal will give thieves some sustain without making them OP. They will remain weaker 1v1 vs all other classes but hopefully gain the ability to skew the 1v1 odds to 40/60 or 30/70 instead of the insane up hill battle you have today

Instead of new awesome ideas

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

However, bringing back some old traits could do some harm with the upcoming daredevil.

Yet would they be as OP as cele eles?

Nope not even close.

Thief is least played class in current PvP?

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Population statistics are a terrible way to look at balance, so I’m going to ignore that (I’m not going to give evidence as to why, anyone with the ability to use google or think logically can see why). The second post is a good read. The issue with thieves is that shortbow, and shadow refuge alone are reason to take a thief now. That means that even though thieves aren’t great in any matchups, they are still being taken for those things. If thieves had even matchups everywhere, and had those things they would be OP. They’d bring everything another class brings and that extra rotation decap ability. Thus, one of two things needs to happen.

Either one, you nerf shortbow mobility and shadow refuge, thus weakening the class initially, but then buff up their actual combat ability to be on par with other classes.

That, or you give 1 or two other classes the mobility, and rezzability thieves have currently, and then go about buffing thieves combat ability. Thus, they would no longer be imbalanced because another class could fill the same role.

Normally I would agree with anyone in preventing thieves from becoming so OP that they literally stack 4 of them on a team and win ESL’s

Wait we already have that in the ele. We already have Cele Necros. We already have PU mesmers. etc etc etc.

There are no argument against this.

Instead of new awesome ideas

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

It would help ALL thieves and that’s the goal.

Think.

Did.

D/D ele compromised balance in pvp

in Elementalist

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Remove all blast components to all D/D weapon skills.

Remove the evade from Burning Speed

Remove Blinding ashes or give it an ICD of 30 seconds to kill it

Remove Burn Stacking

Forgot to say:

Remove blast finishers off dodges

Thief is least played class in current PvP?

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

There’s a couple of things the thief is UP crowd seem to forget, no-one in there right mind would ever play anything that didn’t stand a 50% or better chance against a thief.

If your build was ever weak to a thief you would never be safe from it. It would always be able to get to you, it could always chase it, it could always kill you (promptly) and would render you a liability to the team.

The only case this would not be true is if your build was providing a great benefit to your team and you were always going to lose but could take long enough to kill that your team could come and support if needed.

As for the actual OP. If you were playing as a thief the general rule of thumb is more than one thief is bad so you kinda skewed the results massively and simply removing yourself from the pool isn’t the answer.

Now if you only counted the thieves on the other teams and sampled the other teams then that would be more accurate.

1st There isn’t a class in this game that a thief has a 50% chance to win 1v1. Are there crappy builds that a meta thief can achieve 50% win rate against….Yes, but they are crappy builds thus don’t count due to them losing 100% of the time to all the other classes meta builds.

Reread OP’s post especially this part

Not so much to my surprise, there were only thief’s present in 17 of these 100 games…with only 1 of them have 2 thief’s not counting myself. This adds up to 18 thiefs out of a potential 900

Only 1 match had 2 thieves other than himself. Using that information you are looking at best 18/500 which is a whopping 4%. Going by rule of thumb we can even look at the bigger picture considering that each team should utilize 1 thief per team. that would have made the numbers 100/500 and 200/1000.

4% vs the supposed 20% is quite telling on how UP a thief really is.

1st thing: I said “no-one in there right mind would ever play anything that didn’t stand a 50% or better chance against a thief.” I did not mention classes, I was encompassing builds as well as classes. Marauder ele couldn’t possibly be a thing because, yeah thief and mesmer would eat it for breakfast and DD cele is just so ridiculous atm. It could fight most other meta builds outside of DD ele fairly well so it isn’t a “crappy build” either.

2nd thing: Lets assume we’re working by the rule of thumb that anyone that is a thief switches if they see another thief. This means we have to calculate thief popularity by games not players.

“there were only thief’s present in 17 of these 100 games” which means thief representation is 17%.

However my complaint wasn’t the numbers. I was disputing the numbers, which is why I said:

“you kinda skewed the results massively and simply removing yourself from the pool isn’t the answer.
Now if you only counted the thieves on the other teams and sampled the other teams then that would be more accurate.”

If the OP was to do this again as I said above you would have a much better idea of whether thief was UP as it would be present in less than 12.5% of games assuming all classes were balanced with lower representation meaning it is UP.

Edit: To add I am not saying thief is UP or OP or balanced. I am disputing the way in which the whole data collection process. The OP played a thief and so would have to discount themselves and their team from any data collection due to the popular saying of “You don’t need 2 thieves on a team”.

Maurader Ele not being a thing has nothing to do with Thieves. If thieves are keeping Maurader Eles out of the meta for you than you need to re-evaluate your own game.

Thief representation in games was at 17% which is still crap. You can’t go by a game just having a thief as being balanced b/c by that token I’m sure Rangers are sitting nice and pretty right now since their representation is much higher than 12.5%. The simple fact is that out of 900 possible chances of a thief chosen in those 100 games the fact they only were picked 18 is horrible.

Also using your math of the the fact that thief was chosen either 2% or 4% of the time is in fact well below your 12.5% representation. Also the OP was very descriptive in his presentation and would have likely counted how many thieves were switched at the beginning of the game. Even if ALL 16 games with one thief had a thief switch classes you are looking at 34/900 = 4% or 34/500 = 7% both of which are WELL below acceptable. To get to even get to a 20% margin you need 180/900 or 100/500 and I can guarantee you 162 ppl did not reroll from thief at the beginning of the matches.

Instead of new awesome ideas

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Seriously if we had our previous survivability along with the current power creep most of us would be pretty happy. Granted we’d still be UP but the gap would be much closer/manageable.

Yes please, here please!
But that would primarily help D/D thieves and they will still be few, because CnD just can’t be landed because every class has got invulnerable.
But it would be great.

Edit: Grammar

It would help ALL thieves and that’s the goal.

Unranked maps foster bad players

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I that too and I must lulz at my experience so far.

Instead of new awesome ideas

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

How about we just ask for our defensive trait line nerfs undone. OMG shocker this idea is awesome.

Seriously if we had our previous survivability along with the current power creep most of us would be pretty happy. Granted we’d still be UP but the gap would be much closer/manageable.

So let’s knock off all the omg super cool fix idea here crap and tell them what neEdson to happen

And yes I know many have already said it but the dreamers are getting out of hand

Thief is least played class in current PvP?

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

There’s a couple of things the thief is UP crowd seem to forget, no-one in there right mind would ever play anything that didn’t stand a 50% or better chance against a thief.

If your build was ever weak to a thief you would never be safe from it. It would always be able to get to you, it could always chase it, it could always kill you (promptly) and would render you a liability to the team.

The only case this would not be true is if your build was providing a great benefit to your team and you were always going to lose but could take long enough to kill that your team could come and support if needed.

As for the actual OP. If you were playing as a thief the general rule of thumb is more than one thief is bad so you kinda skewed the results massively and simply removing yourself from the pool isn’t the answer.

Now if you only counted the thieves on the other teams and sampled the other teams then that would be more accurate.

1st There isn’t a class in this game that a thief has a 50% chance to win 1v1. Are there crappy builds that a meta thief can achieve 50% win rate against….Yes, but they are crappy builds thus don’t count due to them losing 100% of the time to all the other classes meta builds.

Reread OP’s post especially this part

Not so much to my surprise, there were only thief’s present in 17 of these 100 games…with only 1 of them have 2 thief’s not counting myself. This adds up to 18 thiefs out of a potential 900

Only 1 match had 2 thieves other than himself. Using that information you are looking at best 18/500 which is a whopping 4%. Going by rule of thumb we can even look at the bigger picture considering that each team should utilize 1 thief per team. that would have made the numbers 100/500 and 200/1000.

4% vs the supposed 20% is quite telling on how UP a thief really is.

Thief Suggestions... From a Non-Thief

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Like I said previously said.

I put no stock in your “ideas”

Roll a thief and go play it b/c atm all your suggestions are going to do is make necro face roll a thief even more so.

The fact you are defending the cele amulet and stating b/c necros rely on might stacking…..really? I bet if you put on mauraders you’d have just as much power as any thief in the game. Heck you could even run zerker since you got tons of health.

Your whole argument fails and reeks of bias and ignorance on the subject matter.

You want thief to be balanced? Then lobby for your own class to get nerfed b/c cele signet necro is OP as kitten. Lobby to have d/d cele eles reduced to normalcy. Jump on the get rid of taunt bandwagon that is running right along with the stop burn stacking motion. I bet you wished you got aboard the “Nerf PU to 1 sec only” bus huh?

Every single class in this game counters thief at the meta level. We are seeing more classes move into the Hard Counter Thief Category as well. Now you are sitting here lobbying we need to give up something to get something.

kitten no.

Revert all nerfs to thief defensive lines and reinstate the might traits into our baseline traits. Reassess the situation after that. Anything else will fall on deaf ears specially the give and take scenarios you like to spout on about.

Nerf condi PU Anet (too OP rant)

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Thats the thing about PU condi mesmers. Sure you’ll cap the point just to lose it and to force him off you need 2 at minimum. That also takes some time due to mesmers inherent defenses.

Meanwhile the other 2 points you’re out numbered 3v4

Courtyard

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Euros LOVE courtyard.

If its an option they are picking it.

Leagues

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

The current system is making the player base smaller by the minute.

While I’ll let the PvP team respond to the other points here, I do want to take a moment and address this:

PvP has steadily grown in population and play hours going on nearly a year now. It’s sky-rocketed since the game went free, and the two weeks before this have been our best weeks literally since the week the game launched. We anticipate this week will be the best week login/play wise PvP has ever had in the history of Gw2.

I don’t want to trivialize your points – and our competitive team has some great reasons why things operate the way they do they’ll lay out and explain in relation to leagues soon: I do want to call out you’re using false population data to support your point.

From an ArenaNet perspective, PvP is the fastest growing part of Gw2 and had more success for us as a business in the last year than it’s had by far in the history of the Guild Wars franchise. Next year is going to be even bigger because of that success.

I’m really proud of the work the team has done and the work our amazing player community who has helped grow competitive PvP just as much as our dev team has and would hate to see that lost in this discussion.
-CJ

After 3 years and you guys killing off WvW you finally see success…..

While I’m happy to see PvP become popular I do miss WvW.

APRIL FOOLS!!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I will be starting a new campaign on ever class in this game.

Necro LF will be treated like adrenaline. It rapidly depletes when oocyte

Engi now have 20 second cd on all kits and elixir s skill and passive have to be used 45 secs a part or fail.

Mesmers PU now only gives 1 sec extra stealth and zero protection and lose all access to blind

Warriors can no longer stack stances and have to wait 20 secs between stances.

Rangers lose all burning and taunt.

Ele loses blinding ashes and ALL blast finishers on daggers

Here’s a good reason to take you seriously when you complain. /s

I see you don’t appreciate my balancing for necros huh?

That’s too bad since we’ve been stuck reading your “ideas” for years

Eh, I don’t mind it. Always felt like LF should generate up (or down) quickly out of combat to 25% so we don’t start out with too much of an edge or with absolutely no life force at all, personally. The part I don’t appreciate is how hardheaded people can be, and then complains no Devs want to communicate with them.

Oh no ooc you get 0 LF and I wouldn’t even increase the build up time. In fact I feel the build up speed should be toned down on the weapons that build it faster

Ah. Okay. Thief needs to start with 0 initiative. Or whatever… -rolls eyes-

I see you’re really starting to appreciate it now.

Good then we are in agreement that my proposal is balanced due to the OP nature of cele necro

Yeah, man. You understand balance.

Just applying the concepts of thief balancing to the rest of the game.

What you don’t like being treated like a thief??

Mmm, any concepts I apply to thief I do apply to other classes. I just act more silly and grudge-driven about it.

Fixed for actual accuracy.

APRIL FOOLS!!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I will be starting a new campaign on ever class in this game.

Necro LF will be treated like adrenaline. It rapidly depletes when oocyte

Engi now have 20 second cd on all kits and elixir s skill and passive have to be used 45 secs a part or fail.

Mesmers PU now only gives 1 sec extra stealth and zero protection and lose all access to blind

Warriors can no longer stack stances and have to wait 20 secs between stances.

Rangers lose all burning and taunt.

Ele loses blinding ashes and ALL blast finishers on daggers

Here’s a good reason to take you seriously when you complain. /s

I see you don’t appreciate my balancing for necros huh?

That’s too bad since we’ve been stuck reading your “ideas” for years

Eh, I don’t mind it. Always felt like LF should generate up (or down) quickly out of combat to 25% so we don’t start out with too much of an edge or with absolutely no life force at all, personally. The part I don’t appreciate is how hardheaded people can be, and then complains no Devs want to communicate with them.

Oh no ooc you get 0 LF and I wouldn’t even increase the build up time. In fact I feel the build up speed should be toned down on the weapons that build it faster

Ah. Okay. Thief needs to start with 0 initiative. Or whatever… -rolls eyes-

I see you’re really starting to appreciate it now.

Good then we are in agreement that my proposal is balanced due to the OP nature of cele necro

Yeah, man. You understand balance.

Just applying the concepts of thief balancing to the rest of the game.

What you don’t like being treated like a thief??

APRIL FOOLS!!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I will be starting a new campaign on ever class in this game.

Necro LF will be treated like adrenaline. It rapidly depletes when oocyte

Engi now have 20 second cd on all kits and elixir s skill and passive have to be used 45 secs a part or fail.

Mesmers PU now only gives 1 sec extra stealth and zero protection and lose all access to blind

Warriors can no longer stack stances and have to wait 20 secs between stances.

Rangers lose all burning and taunt.

Ele loses blinding ashes and ALL blast finishers on daggers

Here’s a good reason to take you seriously when you complain. /s

I see you don’t appreciate my balancing for necros huh?

That’s too bad since we’ve been stuck reading your “ideas” for years

Eh, I don’t mind it. Always felt like LF should generate up (or down) quickly out of combat to 25% so we don’t start out with too much of an edge or with absolutely no life force at all, personally. The part I don’t appreciate is how hardheaded people can be, and then complains no Devs want to communicate with them.

Oh no ooc you get 0 LF and I wouldn’t even increase the build up time. In fact I feel the build up speed should be toned down on the weapons that build it faster

Ah. Okay. Thief needs to start with 0 initiative. Or whatever… -rolls eyes-

I see you’re really starting to appreciate it now.

Good then we are in agreement that my proposal is balanced due to the OP nature of cele necro

APRIL FOOLS!!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I will be starting a new campaign on ever class in this game.

Necro LF will be treated like adrenaline. It rapidly depletes when oocyte

Engi now have 20 second cd on all kits and elixir s skill and passive have to be used 45 secs a part or fail.

Mesmers PU now only gives 1 sec extra stealth and zero protection and lose all access to blind

Warriors can no longer stack stances and have to wait 20 secs between stances.

Rangers lose all burning and taunt.

Ele loses blinding ashes and ALL blast finishers on daggers

Here’s a good reason to take you seriously when you complain. /s

I see you don’t appreciate my balancing for necros huh?

That’s too bad since we’ve been stuck reading your “ideas” for years

Eh, I don’t mind it. Always felt like LF should generate up (or down) quickly out of combat to 25% so we don’t start out with too much of an edge or with absolutely no life force at all, personally. The part I don’t appreciate is how hardheaded people can be, and then complains no Devs want to communicate with them.

Oh no ooc you get 0 LF and I wouldn’t even increase the build up time. In fact I feel the build up speed should be toned down on the weapons that build it faster

APRIL FOOLS!!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I will be starting a new campaign on ever class in this game.

Necro LF will be treated like adrenaline. It rapidly depletes when oocyte

Engi now have 20 second cd on all kits and elixir s skill and passive have to be used 45 secs a part or fail.

Mesmers PU now only gives 1 sec extra stealth and zero protection and lose all access to blind

Warriors can no longer stack stances and have to wait 20 secs between stances.

Rangers lose all burning and taunt.

Ele loses blinding ashes and ALL blast finishers on daggers

Here’s a good reason to take you seriously when you complain. /s

I see you don’t appreciate my balancing for necros huh?

That’s too bad since we’ve been stuck reading your “ideas” for years

APRIL FOOLS!!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I will be starting a new campaign on ever class in this game.

Necro LF will be treated like adrenaline. It rapidly depletes when oocyte

Engi now have 20 second cd on all kits and elixir s skill and passive have to be used 45 secs a part or fail.

Mesmers PU now only gives 1 sec extra stealth and zero protection and lose all access to blind

Warriors can no longer stack stances and have to wait 20 secs between stances.

Rangers lose all burning and taunt.

Ele loses blinding ashes and ALL blast finishers on daggers

Guardian’s healing will be 1/3rd of its current effectiveness. Burning will no longer stack as well

(edited by T raw.4658)

I saw a Dev Playing thief today!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Was it a cute dev? Where da pics? :[ did you give him private lessons?

Nope just told him the most important thing to thief’n

I am still learning my Thief, so I am curious what that is?

Don’t get hit

This has got to be the most useful advice I’ve ever received. Will take it to heart.

A believer

I saw a Dev Playing thief today!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Was it a cute dev? Where da pics? :[ did you give him private lessons?

Nope just told him the most important thing to thief’n

I am still learning my Thief, so I am curious what that is?

Don’t get hit

1 year without rune of the trapper

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

As much as I want it on my Dragonhunter… we don’t need 3 more Stealthy classes
trap thieves, rangers, guards will use it (well.. maybe not thief)

Thieves abuse trapper runes worse then rangers could ever dream about.

Do the research and you’ll vote a resounding NAY

I saw a Dev Playing thief today!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Was it a cute dev? Where da pics? :[ did you give him private lessons?

Nope just told him the most important thing to thief’n

I saw a Dev Playing thief today!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Why didn’t you take screenshots of such rare occasion? The joke is, that dev is probably responsible for some mobs textures and has nothing to do with class balance.

I felt bad for the fella. Could obviously tell he,was new to the class by the way he played.

Talked with him afterwards and he,was pretty chill.

I saw a Dev Playing thief today!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

How do u know he was a dev? Is there something to recognize them?

They’ll have an arena net symbol next to their name

I saw a Dev Playing thief today!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Depends on what class you were on

Thief obviously.

I saw a Dev Playing thief today!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

It was in PvP actually.

I may have made it worse……

I saw a Dev Playing thief today!!

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

He was new to the class……

Unranked Map Voting

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

During map voting Courtyard, Skyhammer, and Spirit Watch should never be our 3 choices.

2 is understandable but 3 is just too much.

Thanks

Condi players are climbing on the MMR ladder

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Guys, the OP even states:

They literally are getting carried to higher levels of play because lower tiers do not know how to deal with conditions
……
and consistently face players that are completely above their skill level to such an extend that they don’t even have a chance in 1v1 or even the slightest idea how to play PVP.

To summarize: condi’s are effective at low levels, but not at high levels. The OP even states that condi’s cannot carry the lower player effectively at high levels.

Exactly what is the problem?

Not sure. On his first post, he said he runs a guild that teaches pvp and that conditions are too effective in low tiers.

From the gist of his post, his low tier guildies are getting owned by condis and that condis are bad for the game coz it’s not fun for them. I think he wants devs to cripple the effectiveness of condition damage so his low tier guildies could run brain dead dps builds coz they don’t like wasting traits/utilities on cleansing

Actually that’s not even close to what he said.

He said low level PvP players gravitate towards condi builds due to the ease of play and how the builds carry them. They then fight players who are good and get absolutely destroyed.

They can’t win at this level due to never actually learning how to play the game since condi builds are carrying them to victory.

His point is quite valid considering these players are now reaching higher MMR ranks. At a base level they aren’t good at this game but due to the mechanics of conditions excel. I’m willing to bet the majority of people who queue for PvP are either solo or 2-3 man parties. The best way to victory is to make sure you can reliably hold 2-3 points for the majority of the game.

The condition builds are usually your best builds the require the least amount of skill to see positive returns on gameplay. Once you become familiar on such builds you can start to really exploit the problems with the condition specs vs built in defenses on the build.

Lemme cut this off right now and just say this. The way to beat a team full of condi builds is to use group cleanses and extremely good rotations. This generally requires team speak coordination or extremely lucky roll on really good teammates in matchmaking, and at high levels of play you meet these requirements. A random team full of PUGs or teams w/out Teamspeak will generally not have the means necessary to overcome the obstacle.

The problem with Taunt

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Oh and forgot untelegraphed

The problem with Taunt

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Is that it’s a psychological one.

Taunt is no better than a stun, but there’s something insanely infuriating about seeing your character attack back when you’re screaming “NO. HEAL YOU STUPID kitten!”

Taunt is better than stun since you can’t blind block or evade it

Courtyard...

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Ive never played more courtyard than when I played in the EU.

Euros love themselves some courtyard for some reason

Condi players are climbing on the MMR ladder

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

Really? Lets take a look at the AA’s of the “relevant” classes:

Condi mesmer: slow, single stack torment, or slow bleeds/burn from staff (<<1k dmg auto).
Condi necro: slow, single stack bleed or poison.
Condi guard: No condi on AA. 1 stack of burning every kittens (a ~1k stack)
Condi ranger: No condi on AA.
Cele ele: No condi on fire attunement AA.

And wait, what? Why shouldn’t a condi build be able to apply condi’s on auto’s? power builds have burst attacks and still hit (hard) on auto’s, why should a condi build be any different?

My guess is, if you are QQing because a condi build killed you, that player would have killed you just as easily on a power build.

No condi players generally aren’t able to perform nearly as well with power builds.

Defending condi mesmer at this point in time really illustrates a person’s lack of wanting the game balanced and skill based.

Changes to SA to make /d viable

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I already know Signet of Shadows isn’t a stealth utility. I have no reason to go back and edit it.

I naturally assumed you would understand that I was referencing the speed run bonus from the signet.

I guess it’s my fault for not typing it out thus:

I don’t run any stealth utilities either (that means no shadow refuge), nor signet of shadows for the 25% speed run increase.

Your arrogance is showing again.

Addition: Just a real quick look at your posts and it’s readily apparent that you feel anyone not playing your way/your set, has no skill.

Examples: (quotes from your posts)

I’m sorry but let’s face it…S/P and P/P do not. I cringed every time I saw high level play with a S/P thief in it in the past.

S/P: Pistol whip is why this set requires minimal skill to play.
P/P: Again the 3 skill is the culprit, and all I really have to say is we can compare it to LB ranger skill level….

~End quotes.

So, according to you, anyone not playing S/D or D/P are scrubs, playing no skill builds. (with D/D being useless in PvP).

You heard it here first folks, T Raw feels you are playing no skill builds if it’s not D/P or S/D, and that you should feel ashamed for doing so.

I’m still not understanding what not running Shadow Signet means……

As for the rest about what I call minimal skill. Yes I said it and stand by it.

Condi players are climbing on the MMR ladder

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Condi builds are low skill builds. Too much damage for such little effort.

Changes to SA to make /d viable

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I don’t run any stealth utilities either (that means no shadow refuge), nor signet of shadows.

D/p is as cheesy if not more so than P/d.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Shadows

You don’t thief at all do you or do ya need to edit that post?

(edited by T raw.4658)

Condi players are climbing on the MMR ladder

in PvP

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Solution is simple:

Make Condi builds require 3 non tank stats for optimal damage to achieve the condi bomb.

I’m sure eveyone would be ok with high condi damage if the player applying it is as glassy as a DPS burst player.

Changes to SA to make /d viable

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Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Ghost trap only works against the feebleminded. There’s also a reason why you rarely see p/d in pvp. It only finds its footing in WvW. As to the weaponless p/d video, again, I highly suspect that opponents weren’t exactly top shelf, or had sub-optimal builds with little to no condi clear.

We have a differing of opinion. You look down on p/d and on anyone that enjoys the playstyle. That’s fine. Arrogance isn’t really a virtue but again, to each their own. If your input swayed the devs in any way, I’d be concerned, but it’s your personal opinion and I’m fine with that.

I’m sure you’re a thief god while playing d/p, like 90% of everyone else.

Quote: “Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.”

A disservice? What is this, the video olympics? Last I knew, I played this game for enjoyment. You’re making it sound like I’m training for some E-sport, and that by playing a spec you believe is inferior, I won’t even get the bronze medal. I haven’t stepped into the pvp lobby even once, all the way back to beta 3 years ago. I solely play WvW. Sorry, I’m not one of the “elite” that finds solace in excelling in pvp.

1. The people who died to the weaponless Dire+Perplex thief weren’t scrubs and they were running Meta Dueling builds. I believe Mango (I may be wrong) made the video to emphasize how broken Dire+Perplexity is. He succeeded in spades.

P/D condi doesn’t see play in tournaments due to stealth being horrible for conquest and the thief’s actual role. Anet has also kept certain stat combo’s and runes out of PvP so there is that as well too. Could you run p/d condi in a tournament? Absolutely! As long as you have SB as your OH and SA to assist your teammates it can be viable. You’ll miss out on group stealth tho.

Yes I’ll say it again. You do yourself a disservice by running on p/d condi. Yes I know its at the weakest it’s ever been, but it still carries bad play. I’m not looking down on you persay….its the simple truth. I play every weapon set a thief offers in all types of ways. I’ve even done off the wall things like front line a thief in a zerg busting group. I’ve tried D/P condi.

At the end of the day its your game you play how you want. You are entitled to your opinion and should voice it as you see fit. You do need to understand a few things though. You only play WvW and you only play a build that the majority of players deem skilless and OP. I in fact have been on record stating I don’t consider P/D Perplexity Thieves thieves at all. I’ve played the build extensively and can with 100% certainty say its Broken. It’s not that i’m looking down on you I just honestly don’t consider you a thief player.

Though if they’d change condi damage like i’ve outlined above I’d change my stance.

Changes to SA to make /d viable

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I’m guessing you missed the video of the fella winning duels running a condi thief with no weapons?

If Anet would require Power/Precision/Condi damage as the ONLY way to pump condi damage then we might be able to have a conversation about skill and condi thieves in the same sentence.

Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.

You do realize that these videos were made before the patch, right?

And now we have a trap ghost thief build which is even more broken.

Like i said if we make conditions require high power/precision for optimal damage then I may change my mind.

Btw this isn’t thief specific.

And yes i do realize that they nerfed bleeding/poison/torment damage. Thank god they did.

Bleeding and poison are trash even ranger needs additional burning to make it useful, that ghost build is a troll one it’s ineffective in squad please stop with the random duels,there is a reason why sinister will only work vs AI they don’t do anything about conditions or nothing at all if you think it works well vs players you don’t know how conditions work a lot of people don’t.

Condi thief “opness” in WvW has been discussed already that’s too WvW to handle their differences from PvP.

You seem to forget that Anet does indeed balance on WvW. I’ll just say Infusion in Shadow and now you’ll stop talking about thief balance for PvP and WvW being seperate http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow

Condition damage builds are supposed to be attrition based. Currently we have condi bombs and condi burst. (If you deny this then pretty much this conversation is over) My proposal is to keep the condi burst/bombs/whatever but make the builds glass to apply them. You could still build your condi build with dire/perplex but you won’t be able to burst someone down with conditions. It’ll be TRUE attrition gameplay. So Yes sinister would be required to achieve condi bomb damage. If you have trouble making it work maybe you need to reevaluate your own play because glass players have been doing it since release.

I understand how conditions work. Its not like i’ve never played condition builds. Unfortunately I have quite a bit of experience on condi builds. That being said I am all for returning burning to what it was before the last patch. Make it only stack time. Even before the 23rd Burning was too strong, but I’ll take that over what we have now.

Thank You

Changes to SA to make /d viable

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I’m guessing you missed the video of the fella winning duels running a condi thief with no weapons?

If Anet would require Power/Precision/Condi damage as the ONLY way to pump condi damage then we might be able to have a conversation about skill and condi thieves in the same sentence.

Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.

You do realize that these videos were made before the patch, right?

And now we have a trap ghost thief build which is even more broken.

Like i said if we make conditions require high power/precision for optimal damage then I may change my mind.

Btw this isn’t thief specific.

And yes i do realize that they nerfed bleeding/poison/torment damage. Thank god they did.

Changes to SA to make /d viable

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

T Raw – bias much? I have played P/d since beta. I’ve seen the ups and downs of it. Again with the “skill-less” crap. I’d have to say P/D is almost the weakest it’s been since inception.

I don’t even run shadow refuge. I’m visible far more often than not. But I guess I’m a skill-less, no-talent hack, according to you.

Again, you let your hatred of a build color your opinion.

But everyone has their opinion. Ours differ, and that’s just fine.

Edit: As it is, thief has almost no alternative builds, unless you want to play d/p. DD ain’t bringing much to the party. The only two builds I see as viable (WvW) is d/p and p/d. Nothing else really has the staying power. If anything Revenants are getting the playstyle thieves should be seeing.

I’m guessing you missed the video of the fella winning duels running a condi thief with no weapons?

If Anet would require Power/Precision/Condi damage as the ONLY way to pump condi damage then we might be able to have a conversation about skill and condi thieves in the same sentence.

Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.

Changes to SA to make /d viable

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

1. Ugly: P/D condi thief isnt the only build I’d vote to destroy. Just about all classes have a skilless cancerous build that needs removal. We can set up a separate thread to discuss positive changes to condi set ups to promote skillfull play if you’d like.

2. Jana: Notice I said prepatch. Post yes the condis were nerfed, but its still very strong. I believe buffing the defense lines takes precedence over OH dagger.

3. Sagat: Anet has balanced based on WvW quite a bit already. In fact how many of the plethora of thief nerfs were in fact based on WvW? Heck thieves in WvW are pretty much solely responsible for the removal of culling. So in terms of thief yes WvW is very much considered when balancing thieves.

4. Vincent: Many are clamoring for blind to be added to CnD. That would give blind to non SA thieves right? As for moving being able to have CiS, SR, SE, and -25% damage….Yeah no. That’s a bit much.

Look I understand the plight. I just can’t back changes that will create an OP monster. Remember they are looking to reduce some of the power creep they introduced.

(edited by T raw.4658)

Changes to SA to make /d viable

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

I understand what you fellas are asking for and to a certain extent I agree. First though you have to look at ALL the combinations of X/D.

The blind on stealth was moved to GM prolly due to the fact of P/D being able to spec fully into 3 lines. I’m sorry but before the patch looking a 3 GM trait P/D thief screamed OP. Also you remember that S/D the “evasion” weaponset would be getting access to blinds as well. You pair Blind on stealth, 25% damage reduction in stealth, AND Shadow Rejuv on those builds and we’d be facing the nerf bat.

I suggest reverting the nerfs to our defensive trait lines first, and while I agree that D/D power thief needs help YOU have to remember that buffing OH Dagger will inevitably buff Dire P/D. <—-Needs to become an unviable option for thieves.

What is the state of Thief class in PVP?

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

To those people comparing Thief role into Mesmer role, please educate yourself as a mesmer before posting some nuisance. Really? the best dueling class in the whole game with his multiple A.i’s, such gross much skill.

Oh and to those Thief getting pigeonholed into one weapon set, runes, and trait Line and crying because lack of sustain, clearly none of you play as one. as well to those having problem against, please do me favor start playing the game play Conquest not Dueling.

As response to the Thread title; My declaration of war will remain the same, Thief is fine in Conquest, rumors says Practice makes perfect.

Everyone read your claim. We all also read your claim that P/D thief requires more skill.

Pardon us for disregarding everything you say now but you’ve earned it

What is the state of Thief class in PVP?

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Every class should be able to 1v1 on a side point and win.

Each class has its defined deference that set it a part from the others. To demand a class to give up a class defining trait is going to ensure they can never achieve 1v1 viability.

If you take away a thief’s mobility than they’ll fail in 1v1s due to not having invulns stab protection etc. You can literally do this with every class….for instance remove an eles boon up keep and they are fail.

There is zero argument to leave thieves unable to 1v1 on a side point

What is the state of Thief class in PVP?

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

Not every thief build carries combat mobility sure we all use SB but when trying to build for something else it usually fails like sacrificing burst for more in battle time, for a while I noticed venom and condi thieves in PvP not anymore someone thinks they did a good job. Thief always had the same role it just became more specific.

Fair enough. I haven’t seen condi-thieves (be that unicorn or p/d) for a long time neither. Nor venomshare for that matter. I quite agree on the role being more specific – but I find that to be balanced. Perhaps unlike you?
I would hate that thieves mesmers have the mobility they have now, the slipperiness, the burst and on top the ability to 1vs1 … in one build. That would imo be OTT. If thieves had multiple ways to function but in different builds, there would be reason to envy them their diversity. Nothing more.

But they do…

Thus we get to one of the arguments brought up by one of the more vocal thieves in this thread.

Personally I only appeal towards balance and having winners determined by skill. I can just as easily roll a ele/mesmer/necro (which I have) and PvP w/out worry….though I really can’t play too many games in a row on them due to getting bored with them.

Backstab. What numbers should i be seeing?

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

6k is normal DMG.

kitten . And if i run berserker with vamp runes? What’s normal then?

0 b/c you’ll be dead before doing anything lol

What is the state of Thief class in PVP?

in Thief

Posted by: T raw.4658

T raw.4658

The fact remains if you are losing 1v1 to a thief it’s a complete l2p issue. If a player in tournament play kept failing to hold a point vs a single thief they’d get kicked off the team.

As a GW2 player I feel no matter what class I’m on if I go 1v1 someone on point the winner should be determined by skillfull play. That is not an option for thieves UNLESS the person fighting the thief is REALLY REALLY bad.

Is asking to be able to reliably win a side point if your better than the person standing on it wrong? No.

Though lots of people who are biased against thieves will adamantly argue to keep thieves unable to do so. These are the failed to learn population and one day hopefully anet will stop listening to them.