(edited by Carpboy.7145)
For a really good solo WvW build the one in my sig is godly. Honestly, you CANNOT die 1v1, even 1v2-3s you have to screw up REALLY badly. Not even D/P backstabbing thieves can kill you, you just shrug it off and heal back up. You can also kite an entire Zerg around the map, and even kill a few of them while youre at it.
Any other advice is welcomed and sincerely thank you for help.
Honestly what Desert Rose said is the best leveling guide ever. What everyone else said works (really anything “works” in pve though) but that guide is the absolute best setup you can do while leveling an engineer. Again here is the link if youre too lazy to scroll up
My human Engi is named Bartimous Gearcrank. And my asuran Engi is Blixx Smokeshot. (Bart uses the build in my sig, and Blixx uses a SD burst build.)
Do this. Perma vigor and some protection from VoC are going to do way more for your survivability than anything other than something like full soldier. Key to survivability is timing blocks, evades, and blinds.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQRAsf7dlUgiDnGyNEfIFRuArHA8g+DXw1DIGxGC-jUyA4rBRTQgILhmKAk+KiGbzoIas6aM9JRUtPhIqWGA9tA-w
The site doesn’t count RHS, so add 15% crit chance.
For solo WvW, 1v1s, etc. decent toughness, good crit, really high power, max crit dmg, and perma vigor. The key is to always start out with Sce/F. Use the shield on focus not to block, but for huge burst. Wait a split second until it explodes, then use Sce 3 and Judges Intervention. from there Sce 2. After that either autoattack with Sce or swap to Sw and teleport and auto away. If you use T #4 twice thats also a really big range nuke. On YouTube, if you search Got Boons, he runs an almost exact similar build to mine, except less survivability. When you look at the link i gave, it doesn’t put in Right Hand Strength, so the crit chance is actually 51%. On the 15 its getting a buff. Grab Focused Mind so
meditations will give fury.
I will say this though. Other burst builds have it a lot easier. Mostly thief and warrior. If you really wanna get big numbers, roll those two. That being said, the shield on focus brings them to ~40% when it explodes. NEVER unless your buying time to get away, use it for just the blocks. The damage is too good to waste it
(edited by Carpboy.7145)
Has anyone ever tried a heavy stealth build with S/D? With Mesmer runes, we can bring the daze on tactical strike up to 2.66 seconds. ( Correct me if im wrong) Then you could either precast CnD or use flanking strike to evade. Could keep them from ever hitting you. I did go 30 in SA with this one.
Feels risky without shadows embrace, but that blind will be just another way they can’t hit you. With basilisk, you could literally stun/daze lock people to death.
I think stealth-heavy stun/dazelock builds for S/D are unpopular not because it’s bad, but because it’s inherently more evasive as a set with the 2 and 3 skills. And frankly, S/P can do it better.
Im trying to find videos of a daze lock one, and it seems everyone just uses it for evades. Thats great, but this daze thing does sound really cool to me, effectively locking them out of being able to heal or do dmg. Evade does the same thing, but they can still heal and dodge. I also understand a daze lock is easier said then done, what with people moving everywhere, but then i think if you can just evade until you get another opening for a TS, it could be a really fun and unexplored option for S/D thieves.
I have an armor set with runes of the mesmer on it but haven’t tried it out after the changes to how stuns and dazes work. It was a lot of fun before this change and its certainly a different playstyle. You end up using your entire skillbar. The power/precision boost of the runes is decent on its own as well. I actually stopped playing with this set though once the traveler runes came out though as they fit my S/D setup better.
Would you still say its viable after the patch? I think its only .36 seconds less daze and CnD has a 1/2 sec cast time. I think something like 0 30 20 20 0 would work best, since like you said, your using every skill on your bar, and the triple dodge and initiative regen from Accro is nice. I just dont like traveler much, if i want to run faster ill get oic and swap to SoS.
Has anyone ever tried a heavy stealth build with S/D? With Mesmer runes, we can bring the daze on tactical strike up to 2.66 seconds. ( Correct me if im wrong) Then you could either precast CnD or use flanking strike to evade. Could keep them from ever hitting you. I did go 30 in SA with this one.
Feels risky without shadows embrace, but that blind will be just another way they can’t hit you. With basilisk, you could literally stun/daze lock people to death.
I think stealth-heavy stun/dazelock builds for S/D are unpopular not because it’s bad, but because it’s inherently more evasive as a set with the 2 and 3 skills. And frankly, S/P can do it better.
Im trying to find videos of a daze lock one, and it seems everyone just uses it for evades. Thats great, but this daze thing does sound really cool to me, effectively locking them out of being able to heal or do dmg. Evade does the same thing, but they can still heal and dodge. I also understand a daze lock is easier said then done, what with people moving everywhere, but then i think if you can just evade until you get another opening for a TS, it could be a really fun and unexplored option for S/D thieves.
Has anyone ever tried a heavy stealth build with S/D? With Mesmer runes, we can bring the daze on tactical strike up to 2.66 seconds. ( Correct me if im wrong) Then you could either precast CnD or use flanking strike to evade. Could keep them from ever hitting you. I did go 30 in SA with this one.
Feels risky without shadows embrace, but that blind will be just another way they can’t hit you. With basilisk, you could literally stun/daze lock people to death.
I think stealth-heavy stun/dazelock builds for S/D are unpopular not because it’s bad, but because it’s inherently more evasive as a set with the 2 and 3 skills. And frankly, S/P can do it better.
Well, it could before the patch. They said they’re looking into a fix, though.
I see what you mean. But if you COMBINE the daze lock with the mobility and evade, i think thats extremely powerful.
As for S/P being superior, Mesmer runes dont affect stun. So you could get like a
25% uptime on stun, compared to a near 100% uptime on daze.
(edited by Carpboy.7145)
Has anyone ever tried a heavy stealth build with S/D? With Mesmer runes, we can bring the daze on tactical strike up to 2.66 seconds. ( Correct me if im wrong) Then you could either precast CnD or use flanking strike to evade. Could keep them from ever hitting you. I did go 30 in SA with this one.
Feels risky without shadows embrace, but that blind will be just another way they can’t hit you. With basilisk, you could literally stun/daze lock people to death.
(edited by Carpboy.7145)
kitten . Im trying to learn S/D and saw you had like 6 videos, all with different builds for it. Just seeing what the build is isnt as good as seeing it in action either
What i came up with after some min-maxing. 25 in Accrobatics provides a lot more damage at the cost of infusion of shadow (i honestly dont see myself stealthing that often except with utilities, or if im fighting a condition build to remove conditions and daze to prevent them from reapplying..) stealthing doesnt feel as good without 30 in SA anyway.
Any thoughts?
Could you please make it available to watch on mobile?
More and more ive been wondering about S/D setup. Many people think its the only viable s/tpvp build, other than trolling with D/P. when i first looked at it, i assumed its strength would be in CnD and tactical strike. But when i watched videos, most of the people just spammed 1 and 3. Im interested to try it. I’ve heard sword is more sustained dmg then d/p or d/d, but in the videos i saw the #3 was hitting for 2-3k. Sure, its not backstabbing burst, but its still good dmg. Plus it evades. Anyway, i tried to make a build for it.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYMQNAsYVlYmaPHdy5E/5Ey2jeqC5JvCkV3Duyq0KA-jADB4iJDbRQkgAisAkKAI5ZRrZPBsNoIas6FYqSCpqXR2bYIrCBYeCA-e
I think thats the basics. Going off what wish has proven over and over with soldier/berserker. Same thing with food, wish has proven they are the most dmg ones you can get. I think the traits are the basic idea, maybe take 10 out of Accro and trickery and put 20 in DA for the +5% dmg on dual skill.
Overall, looks fun, and i look forward to any critique, tips, and general thief tricks, as im just starting to get into it again after shelving mine from launch.
i think toughness is better than healing power
getting 300-600 hp each hit versus prevent dmg burst from hitting you 12k ….aa doesnt use initiative points so no healing from our main dmg attack
shadow’s rejuvenation doesnt affected by healing power and p/d dont have spamable skills so only caltrops is been affected by it but can be dodge fast enough so most ppl wont stay the whole 10 seconds
still nice on unicorne build but still gimmicky build and not so viable in wvw raiding or roaming
Could you elaborate on why its gimmicky and not very viable? Its just like Laelas P/D build but with healing power over vitality. Also still kinda curious why its called a unicorn build lol
I have a similar build, but I trait for initiative regen traits and flanking as well as precision.
Something like this:
With a Sigil of Generosity for condition removal.
You know conditions cant crit right? And damage modifiers, e.g. Executioner, dont affect conditions.
This is the ultimate condition warrior build. The rabid/dire one will work until you can get celestial, but if you truly want to play condition Sw/Sw + LB warrior, this will be best. After reading the thread about celestial gear on warriors, i decided to experiment. You lose ~100 toughness and ~50-100 condi dmg, in exchange for ~200 power and 30% crit dmg. Since we’re 20 in Discipline, its 50% crit dmg, with ~47% crit chance. Sw and LB being such hybrid weapons, this is just soooo amazing!! You lose almost nothing for some fairly decent power dmg. (Think of it as another condition that cant be cleansed). Combined with full rabid trinkets means our bleeds, burn, and torment, will still tick very hard. We also gain a little extra healing power, which weve already established isnt that great for warrior, but it helps. Can regen ~750 HPS with Adrenal, HS, and Regen. I honestly dont know what to think. It seems OP. cant wait until i get enough charged quartz to really get down with this.
Bumping cus the balance patch bunched everyone panties up and im still wondering how viable it is and a basic rotation
I run a typical super unicorn in Full Settlers.
Its frikken indestructible and dishes some vicious bleeds. Self heals on every single hit and every single point of initiative spent is insane with D/D button 3 – you actually have to pace yourself a little to not over-heal during the first few seconds of each engagement, expsecially if you find opponents packed tight enough you’re getting more than the basic three hits (it cleaves…). Plus the self-heal you get from pressing Daggerstorm in even a small group of enemies is breathtaking. 60-80% self heal while stable, reflecting, and damage/crippling/bleeding? Um, yes please?
Could you link me the build you run with? Why is it called a super unicorn? Kinda unsure about utilities, i saw laela runs skale venom, but after looking at it i ont think its that great. One last thing, i saw the stealth attack on P/D hits 5 times! Lol at 650heals just from that, not counting the time you spent in stealth, or the initiative you spent to get in stealth.
Also quick question on caltrops. It says on the tooltip 10sec duration. So does it apply 2 stacks of bleeds every sec, or how often? Also does it count as a multi hit attack (triggering signet of malice)
Strictly from a solo WvW perspective, how viable is a P/D + D/D thief in healing power gear? I was thinking something like this.
Signet of malice, assassin’s reward, and shadow’s rejuvenation, combined with 1650 condi dmg (with stacks), 15k health, nearly 2k toughness, and 1000 healing power. I mixed some shaman in to get 15k HP. How viable do you thief experts think this would be?
Could you make these available to watch on mobile?
There’s a thread talking about condi warr here.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Condition-build-1
For solo WvW, 1v1s, etc. decent toughness, good crit, really high power, max crit dmg, and perma vigor. The key is to always start out with Sce/F. Use the shield on focus not to block, but for huge burst. Wait a split second until it explodes, then use Sce 3 and Judges Intervention. from there Sce 2. After that either autoattack with Sce or swap to Sw and teleport and auto away. If you use T #4 twice thats also a really big range nuke. On YouTube, if you search Got Boons, he runs an almost exact similar build to mine, except less survivability. When you look at the link i gave, it doesn’t put in Right Hand Strength, so the crit chance is actually 51%. On the 15 its getting a buff. Grab Focused Mind so meditations will give fury.
Is something you could also run. Focuses more on boons and banners and less on frequent F1 skills. Could also run shouts over banners with shouts heal.
With 1200 HP, adrenal, HS, and regeneration will heal for ~900hps. With 200 HP what you get base from grabbing cleansing ire) you get ~700hps. You tell me if 1000 healing power is worth only 200 more HPS, not counting the downtime on adrenal and regeneration.
Since you said you tested it in WvW, did people cleanse a lot? If not pizza is better. Id even say its better even if they do have lots of cleanses, since the cleanses do have cool downs. Also making the fire on LB last longer is important, since the base durations from it are pretty low.
ye many build have good ways of cleansing.
I had a particular intense 1v1 with a good elementalist that kept removing condition quite easily. Managed a couple of time to bring hiw low enough, but his turtling away saved him his life.Opportunist is only a better option for those 18 seconds that your Signet of Rage is not providing you with Fury.
the problem is also not having self-perma-swiftness. So I had to go for the 25% movement speed all the time instead of signet recharge. 18 secs of no +movement speed is a no go for me.
If I used Warhorn instead of sword off-hand, and so having Signet Recharge I would most likely use 10% crit on sword.
Thats kinda what eles do though. Its the only thing they have that makes somewhat viable ATM. If hes 30 in water, running Ether Renewal and all the cleansing utilities, i can imagine what a hard fight that would be. The heal alone removes 8 conditions on a 15sec CD. But its a long, telegraphed channeled skill, easily interruptible, which is what makes it balanced. Also whenever they apply regeneration they remove a condition. I think he was just specced extremely heavily into condition removal, making him not be that good at anything else. Obviously an anti-condition build is going to counter yours pretty hard. But he also wasnt able to kill you. If someone has to retreat from me, not because the odds are inbalanced or they see a Zerg, i count that as a win. Especially against someone who was built so specifically to hard counter your build.
For those reasons i still think pizza is better. Hardly anyone is even capable of running such anti condition builds that youd get more use out of pizza. However, i did make one tiny tweak to the runes. I put x2 lyssa and x4 undead. That 10% condi duration from lyssa rounds out everything so perfectly. Autos on sword go to 16sec. Pin down goes to 23. Flurry immobilizes for 6sec(on an 8sec Cd), giving the opportunity to chain immobilize with Pin down and flurry, and keep it up. You could also run x6nightmare. Or x6 lyssa but i feel that one would work best with a 30 in tactics variation. X6 traveler is also good, allowing you to drop Warriors Sprint for signet recharge or something. By getting rid of x6undead, you only lose ~100 condi dmg(only about 5DPS from bleeds) in exchange for them potentially ticking 1 more sec which is better. And +10% just looks much better. Burns and torment will last 50% longer, and bleeds will last 100% longer.
Here’s an example. The BLOCK on sword(defensive skill) will do 15k with corruption stacks and SoR popped. Ouch! Combustive shot will potentially do 24k! Flurry will do 5.5k and immobilize for 6sec! Its to hawt, Seriously. Only thing that doesn’t round up is FoF. Shame
so this is the starting gear I’ve been roaming with tonight for a couple of hours.
It has been a blast, didn’t expect to be this effective in wvw (I’ve played condi war only in spvp), and I don’t see myself going back to Power build anytime soon.
I’ve decided to go off-hand sword instead of warhorn for fun reasons. And to be more offensive.
Had to drop signet reachrge and go for 25% run speed, or I would have had 18seconds of no +movement speed at all. I would totally use signet recharge if I went Warhorn.I might consider swap all armor for DIRE instead of RABID. And go from 42% base crit chance to 32%. While obviously reaching 24k hp.
32% (52% with perma fury up), still look pretty solid. But I’m still uncertain, I don’t want to lose offensiveness.
Still uncertain on the Food/Sigil
I’m using a sigil of Earth on main hand and doom/geomancy on the other 2 weapons. but they are just placeholders, before choosing something better.
Food I went Precision Oil, and – cond duration(defensive) on myself.
What do you guys suggest?
You read my mind while i was at work. 10 in tactics wasnt helping at all. You still can get easy perma fury with Pin Down and Flurry. And 30 in arms lets you be able to use F1 skills on CD. Sw/LB have arguably some of the best F1s which is even better. I do think signets would work best with this build. SoR is just so great when traited, almost 100% uptime on fury, swiftness, and few might stacks. I dont really like mobile strikes, just because it is so situational. Plus with mobile strikes stances would be better, which also makes you take Stances last 25% longer (Stance Mastery or something) over dogged march.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAscTjkOpwBPGPMxBEkCNsKOPSilg8UKmD7A-jEyAoOBRaBIVJQ5Qio1MJY1sIasqbMdMRUtUAQMHA-w
Is what I will run when i get the chance. 20k HP is enough, though more would certainly be useful. 67% crit with fury. I also think more rabid over dire is best because as far as i know, Sigil of earth and the 5 in arms dont have an ICD, which makes dual shot on LB and flurry able to stack quite a bit of bleeds. One thing you could do with full dire though is use the Precision signet. Youd still have almost full rabid crit chance with the health of full dire. Id run berserker stance and either endure pain or balanced stance, along with the trait that gives vigor on use if stance.
As long as you can crit 3 or more times every 10sec, sigil of earth is better than geomancy. Since on swap sigils trigger on crit sigils, and vice versa, using both isnt really an option. Same thing with doom. Though you could use doom and corruption on sword, and earth on LB. could be good.
Since you said you tested it in WvW, did people cleanse a lot? If not pizza is better. Id even say its better even if they do have lots of cleanses, since the cleanses do have cool downs. Also making the fire on LB last longer is important, since the base durations from it are pretty low.
One last thing i just figured out about the full Dire over full Rabid. With the build i listed above, you only gain 4k health for 21% crit chance. Not worth it IMO. Both builds get perma fury easy, so rabid is actually better. You also do have 20% crit dmg. While not great, LB and main hand sword are hybrid weapons. Yet another reason rabid is better than dire.
(edited by Carpboy.7145)
Part of why i was running opportunist was leg specialist yeah. Really easy perma fury there. But maybe traited signets with SoR would be enough uptime. Also leg specialist with sword auto and leap is just really awesome, even with an ICD for leg specialist.
Really the only way i could see myself using WH is a more defensive setup, since id be losing 5stacks of torment and easy 3stacks of bleed. And i just absolutely hate the aesthetics if a war horn. Doesnt look cool at all. But maybe once i actually get a chance to use the build ill like it more. The only big plus i can see is vuln in protection and weakness. But both of those would only be good against power builds anyway.
Btw what are the base durations of the boons you can get from WH? Could definitely change my opinion on it.
what about runes? the build posted in here go for undead.
what about perplexity (even if we can’t interrupt, we can still apply on hit) Are they worth a try?
I do think x4 perplexity x2krait or something could be decent. I just dont like perplexity, even if not using the 6th bonus. Plus the x4 has a 15 sec ICD.
You’re probably right about 30 in tactics. Plus i already have 33% uptime on regen through dogged march which is good enough.
As for the GS, i just cant see that being useful in any situation for a condi build especially giving up the LB. you lose all ability to kite and so much damage its not worth being able to jump in and out of fights. Plus if you had LB to begin with, you wouldn’t need the GS to get away with.
Also here’s a quick rotation. Thoughts?
Almost always start in LB. pin down, and use FoF, Searing arrow, few autos and whatever until you get full adrenaline. Use F1 then swap to Sw/Sw. Use impale. Leap for fire shield, then use block. They should have tons of bleeds from autos on LB and Sw. From there, auto on sword until full adrenaline. If theyre at range, use leap and immediately F1. 5 1/2 sec of immobilize should finish most people off. But if they have lots if heals or cleanses. Either swap back to LB to finish them off or repeat rotation.
As for using Sw/WH. Eh. Sure its extra condi removal, but having to give up 10 trait points and Torment+block isn’t worth it to me.
Here is the build i would use. Maybe swapping a few pieces to dire depending how i feel after actually playing with it. But gotta level my warr first >_<
the highest amount of speed will prevail…
Wow so does that apply to basically any movement speed buff in the game? So any combination of trait + boons + etc, it just gives you the highest value?
Yes. Which is why traits like that are relatively useless, unless you don’t have swiftness or a +25% signet.
GS would be really really bad. Thats not even close to a reasonable trade off. Pin down will do 18k dmg with stacks and burn will do ~1kper sec. Id much rather have that over a 1200 and 600 sprint.
Thats what i was thinking with apothecary gear, in the end all those stats for that trade off would just not be worth it. Ill probably get rabid first, since temples, badges, and dungeons. If that works really good ill just keep it. But if i still feel im missing something ill get dire. 20%critchance plus how easy it is to get perma fury would be really good combined with 28k health. I still dont know what would be best for sigils, earth or geomancy.
Also one last thing about apothecary. We can regen almost 1kper sec with it. Thats a lot. Maybe it is worth trade?
you could replace the sigil of corruption with the sigil of geomancy.
every time you swap weapons you aoe condition bomb. this would allow the following combo.
[pindown](6 stacks of bleed) – into dodge roll into them weapon swap (3 stacks of bleed) – auto attack (1 stack of bleed) for a total of 10 stacks of bleed in under 2 seconds.
That is what I’d do if full dire. But not trading for corruption, trading for earth. Also, 0 20 20 10 20 is probably what ill be running with full dire. 0 20 20 30 0 seems to benefit more from apothecary. And no fast hands makes me sad
Thoughts? Tips? Anyone?
Build in my sig. But regardless of class, PVE and dungeons are best done in full zerker. Support builds just unnecessarily slow the dungeon down, while not providing much in return. Someone in full zerker does basically the same support as a support specific build.
These healing builds are for WvW/spvp.
Healing power doesn’t scale great for warriors though. And of all the classes that have a bleed on crit minor (necro,Engi,warr) all 3 are 33%chance on crit to bleed. How is that worse compared to other professions? Most other professions dont even get a trait like that. Plus the sigil, 60% chance on crit to bleed. It doesn’t stack to 93%, its two separate bleeds which IMO is better. The reason i say dire is beacause i saw a video if some guy walking around with 30k health, Sw/Sw + LB and absolutely destroying people.
After watching some videos, and reading around the forums, im certain condition warrior is very viable. However, im wondering if full rabid, full dire, or a mix of the 2 is the way to go. How useful is a banner, taking the regen and cool down trait? In addition, fast hands is awesome, but when taking the banner traits, its hard to find room to fit that. I tried to get 30% crit, and with opportunist, leg specialist, and sword auto thats perma fury so 50%. Thoughts?
How good would taking 10 out of arms and into tactics be? Leg specialist with sword auto sounds REALLY strong.
Strictly from a solo WvW perspective, how viable are warrior condition builds. Anything but Sw/Sw and LB is probably stupid(maybe not?). I came up with this.
Kinda unsure about utilities. Are stances good? What exactly does berserker stance do? While lacking in power, i think thats made up for by the dmg increases. +15 when burning, +5% when bleeding. Traits im also pretty unsure about 0 25 0 20 15 seems pretty mandatory. 5 sec on weapon swap is to strong. Also sigil of earth and that 5 minor trait (dont remember which tree) combined with rabid gear means lots and lots of bleeds.
How viable is apothecary gear?
For solo WvW, i really like the build in my sig. And working on a bursty SD build.
The build in my sig is apothecary, really good for roaming solo, especially 1vx
The build in my sig is VERY good for solo roaming WvW. You should give it a try!
there a problem with that?
So hostile….
If you ask WvW map chat, regardless of profession, they will tell you to leave because your just a rally bot, thief will one shot you, etc etc.
Thats as far from the truth as possible. The few viable WvW builds for solo ranger are full berserker LB/GS and Apothecary regen bunker. Dont always listen to whatever anyone tells you. First off, theyre often completely wrong and very misinformed. Take all the people who say ranger is horrible for example. Second, if what you play is effective and fun for you, it doesn’t matter.
I’ve been running full berserker LB/GS on my ranger for months. It is super fun! Rapid fire goes for 18k on squishies. The most important thing you can know is when to run and when to stay and fight.
I actually run 30/30/10 on mine, since i use LR and QZ.
Arent you the exact guy who asked on the guardian forums for a WvW build.
I think this is like the 3rd time today people have asked for an engineer leveling guide without bothering to look at that thread.
What Desert Rose said is great for leveling. Dont forget to buy a sigil of bloodlust(only 55c) to max your power
Once you hit 80, there are many viable builds that can work. I primarily use the build in my sig and a bursty Static Discharge build.
(edited by Carpboy.7145)
When im roaming on my guardian i use this. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQRAsf7dlUgiDnGyNEfIFRuArHA8g+DXw1DIGxGC-jEDB4LDimgAisI0UBApPFRjtZoIas6FYqTQ6TK1aXAWzAeDMa1yAovFA-w
I actually like to finish fights by myself. This build has really good survivability to, with perma vigor, 1400 toughness, 15k health. The site does not calculate Right Hand Strength so running at 51% crit chance.
If you youtube “burst guardian” Got Boons knows his stuff. If you want get better, study videos of what other people do in certain situations.
Go with engi
//15chars
Anything other than full zerker in dungeons isnt reaching full potential. But it doesn’t really matter unless your doing mega speed clears. For PVE, anything works. Seriously, anything. But only zerkers is best.