Guild Wars 2

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

It is true though. You can’t argument with what happens in wvw because it is heavily affected by gear, runes, food, world buffs, pve multiplies, zerg passing by etc.

You think it does because you have never really played wvw – I duelled my buddy a million times in wvw and I know it’s not that different from wvw.

Cynz.9437:

My point was that backstab in pvp atm is not exactly worth using hence why i think it could use a buff (which is opposite of what you suggested saying that all long time thieves want only nerfs).

The problem with that is that it’s straight past the point. Before June no one was able to 1 (2) shot anyone in this game – now only thieves are able to 1 (2) shot thieves in wvw and pvp – make the damage higher and they’re probably able to truly one shot each other. It doesn’t help one bit against other classes as they’ve got all their invulnerabilities or can just heal up to full.

Cynz.9437:

Nobody stops people from playing s/d, p/d, d/d etc. Really. If you think those builds need improvement then go make own thread for it.

I did, but you D/P players refused to get the point.

Cynz.9437:

I didn’t know you liked to call yourself scrubby

I was quoting you.

ETA: If you still don’t get my point, read the OP of my “Please nerf D/P” – try to see it not from the “BUT I’M A D/P PVP THIEF; THE GREATEST THERE EVER WAS; NO ONE DESERVES ANYTHING BUT ME” point of view and you might understand where I’m coming from.

- assumption (wrong one at it) and generalization as argument – zzzzz

- wrong again, certain builds could 1 shot pre june patch even, it is was generally not worth using (although i would like to add that standard shatter mes could semi-oneshot thieves given right and well timed execution); once again wvw argument, wvw is not balanced, never was and never will be. Also, nothing stops Anet from using different multiplies for pvp and pve.

- no, you didn’t suggest improvement to those builds. You asked to gut decent weapon set because yours favorite weaponset is not performing up to your expectations and wanted every thief in this game be absolutely worthless, being harassed, told to quit game, never taken to raids/pvp team for at least year in hopes that Anet will eventually buff your beloved d/d (when realistically all your suggestions would just lead to everyone being forced into staff).

- you were quoting me? Show me the post where i called you “scrub”.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

i just said i think bs needs a buff as well as other staff spells

I can two shot a thief – CnD + BS = down. So yes, lets buff BS.
ETA: Oh, with SS and BS (and mug which I don’t use) the same is for D/P.

in pvp you won’t unless thief is afk

Best argument I have heard in a while!

ETA: All classes have got their invulnerabilities and dish out as much (or more) damage than a thief with backstab.
I think we had the discussion about what has to change many times and I’m a bit tired of it. And please don’t forget that we other thieves (D/D, P/D, S/D) would like to play this game again too.
Oh and we scrubby wvw thieves.

It is true though. You can’t argument with what happens in wvw because it is heavily affected by gear, runes, food, world buffs, pve multiplies, zerg passing by etc.

My point was that backstab in pvp atm is not exactly worth using hence why i think it could use a buff (which is opposite of what you suggested saying that all long time thieves want only nerfs).

Nobody stops people from playing s/d, p/d, d/d etc. Really. If you think those builds need improvement then go make own thread for it.

I didn’t know you liked to call yourself scrubby

@alchemyst.2165: i agree, steal should steal more stacks. It would promote smarter use of steal imo.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

i just said i think bs needs a buff as well as other staff spells

I can two shot a thief – CnD + BS = down. So yes, lets buff BS.
ETA: Oh, with SS and BS (and mug which I don’t use) the same is for D/P.

in pvp you won’t, unless thief is afk and runs zerker amy

again, thief would have place in this game (pvp at least), yes even vanilla, if elites and revs/scrappers get nerfed

My god, so much salt in this thread. OP is asking to buff something that is not used atm.

I think many agree that currently used rev builds (combination of sword MH, shiro, herald and mallyx) needs some toning down. On other hand other rev legends do need some help.

I think suggestion for jalis heal is decent, although i would play around with duration number. Given amount of condis flying around 7.5 sec of resistance might be bit of too much.

Not sure about inspiring, when i tried out rev during betas i used it for swiftness a lot. Losing it as swiftness combo field but be not so appealing for some players.

I don’t understand your suggestion about rite.

This is coming from thief main – revs pushed thief class out of pvp almost completely (at least during season 1) and i hate them probably more than players maining other classes.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

I think it’s a pity that you were around in that thread from start to finish – call yourself a thief expert – at least 2 people tried to explain the point to you multiple times – but you still didn’t get it.
But since you seem to be a nice person you used that very discussion in this thread as an opener to “get the discussion rolling, aight” – have fun, thief expert.

ETA: And btw – the thieves who are still around in this forum and have been for a long time know what the problem with “thief” is – contrahery to you – all of us don’t want buffs.
ETA²: Or if we want buffs it’s in case other classes won’t be nerfed or the stuff we once had access to is out of our reach. (CnD unblockable and applying blind).

Jana you really should talk for yourself and not put everyone into your basket of “what is right”.

So, I’m saying “thieves that have been around for a long time don’t want buffs” you say you don’t want buffs, but I should speak for myself – well ok then

i just said i think bs needs a buff as well as other staff spells

Some things really needed nerfs, they were too rewarding and caused unfun games. Some changes were indeed really stupid. That being said players force the meta just as devs do. Certainly the pro league teams look for most optimal set up but in your average ranked nobody forces you to play meta build. Other builds can do just as fine but sheep are sheep.

Jana.6831:

I think it’s a pity that you were around in that thread from start to finish – call yourself a thief expert – at least 2 people tried to explain the point to you multiple times – but you still didn’t get it.
But since you seem to be a nice person you used that very discussion in this thread as an opener to “get the discussion rolling, aight” – have fun, thief expert.

ETA: And btw – the thieves who are still around in this forum and have been for a long time know what the problem with “thief” is – contrahery to you – all of us don’t want buffs.
ETA²: Or if we want buffs it’s in case other classes won’t be nerfed or the stuff we once had access to is out of our reach. (CnD unblockable and applying blind).

Jana you really should talk for yourself and not put everyone into your basket of “what is right”.

I think if rule of ESL " no stacking of classes" was applied to leagues we would probably see some thieves.

Revs and scrappers need some (massive) nerfs (scrapper sustain or dmg, revs moblity, REVEALED ON DEMAND) – i feel like they are one of the main reasons why thieves are not played atm (in pro league that is). They also hold other classes/builds from being used more, imo.

I don’t think DP needs buffs, if anything AAs should be toned down a bit and backstab get a buff – right now it is total lackluster compared to effort it requires. Staff 5 also needs toning down by a lot – it is too rewarding to just spam 5. Other staff spells could use some love though, they are way to often not worth using at all.

I don’t know why it is so surprising. Rev was designed as better version of thief (they literary gave revs everything thieves ever asked for) and war together. Why bring thief when you have rev. Why bring war when rev is by far better.

Problem with DH – it is just another turret engi. Stupidly broken (in a sense of carrying noobs due to easy execution and high effectiveness) in normal ranked but not good enough for ESL.

I did expect more druids though then again druids crumble under focused pressure.

Ithilwen.1529:

Engineer needs a serious reduction in tankiness. The forums screamed and qq’d about a bunker Mesmer.. yet Scrapper is doing essentially the same thing + stealth and no one has a problem with this?

we did, all season 1

devs didn’t care~

Ithilwen.1529:

Thieves have extreme close range survivability compared to Mesmer. Evade and blind spam. More hp? well Thieves have the next higher armor class. Did I mention; higher mobility, more CC and more sustained damage?

Mesmer has been traditionally thief food for years, so your comparison makes no sense.

Evade don’t really prevent you from taking from aoe spam, evades also prevent you in many cases to do dmg to the enemy. Blind doesn’t prevent aoe from hitting you and it gets removed by 1 AA/spell. The amount of armor thieves have over mesmers is laughable, more HP is actually more effective – prime example: after june patch pre HoT you could easily run zerker amy on mes but not on thief since as thief you would easily get 1 shotted due to low Hp while as mes you would still have extra second to react thanks to extra HP if you got hit by same spell.

Mes has enough mobility/escape tools to go in/out of main fight. I would argue about more CC. Sustained dmg on thief? I am assuming you mean AA. If thief is allowed to AA someone to death, mes could AA that someone to death as well w/o any trouble. Supposed sustained dmg doesn’t exactly help with survival in mid of the aoe spam.

apharma.3741:

Ever thought they learnt to do their combo really fast because of this huge flaw and how they can’t rely on any clone surviving the run to a target.

Just to put it in perspective, you know how much you hate AoE as a thief? Now imagine you have seven to five times less health and you need to run straight to your target instead of teleporting? Think you’d get there?

Thought not.

mes run to target? since when

Ithilwen.1529:

The “soap bubble” quality of clones has been a bane of Mesmer since I began playing. I’m in my fourth year in the game.

The extreme weakness of clones doesn’t encourage shatter, it discourages it. Clones won’t survive aoe or aa spam. This means that the only reliable way to hit a shatter is to get right next to the target.

( One technique that hits most of the time is to shatter on a downed foe to interrupt the rez and damage the rescuer. It’s a real commentary on shatter that it doesn’t always hit, even then. )

This exposes the Mesmer to CC and near instant death against many classes.

If ANET sincerely wanted shatter played, they’d make the trait [Time Catches Up] baseline, increase clone hp and make clones follow the target better. Sad to say, I’m actually jealous of ranger pet ai at times.

I know mesmers that can execute their shatter combos extremey fast w/o relying on clones to survive. And oh noes, you need to go in melee and take a risk for dmg – welcome to thief life. At least you don’t need to get behind the target to get measy 3k dmg off and you have more HP.

kdaddy.5431:

Cynz.9437:

Ele could carry in season 1 by literary tanking 1v2 even 1v3 (i have seen it plenty of times) thus causing 4v2 somewhere else. Given it was with combination of amy, various ways of dmg reduction and heals but if 1 trait forces you to bring 2 players there IS something wrong. 100% hardcounters are bad. Old DS implementation was bad. Period.

And just fyi, devs took advises from pro league players for balancing patch.

No it couldnt,

If you want to say that about bad players well guess what in season 1 i had a guild member watch win a 1 vs 2 on my warrior. Please tell me that warrior is op because that happened.

Ele lost its place in ESL because revs did enough damage on power build to kill a ele 1 vs 1 and condi rev could quickly burst them down in team fights. Ele was actually the first class to lose its place in the season followed by DH and necro.

Complaining about eles abilities in healing and etc must of forgotten that necros have 2 life bars, druids have cele form and engy can literally go from 25% health to 100% in about 3 sec. Ele were on par with other classes when it had cele amulet and it was simply posted by the op that the heavy majority of the people on the forum simply cry things into nerf.

ESL is played by extreme minority of the player base. Is this game balanced for handful of players or for actual player base? Turret engis were never ESL material but they were too rewarding in your daily ranked, carried bad players and got nerfed eventually (which was a good thing).

Eles are not in bad place right now, imo. Yes reaper is strong, so is scrapper. Those classes got buffs and/or didn’t get nerfs they should have last balancing patch. However it is not ele issue but rather devs bad decisions in regard of these classes. This game’s pvp got really bad because of increasing power creep every patch. The nerfs are not pleasing thing but they need to happen (for pretty much every elite and most classes) if pvp is to become fun and make sense again.

P.S. eles were on par with other classes? Really? Tell it to thieves and wars, tell it to bunker guards, tell it to shatter mes, tell it to every non-druid ranger~

Krysard.1364:

Cynz.9437:

tried to type /dance or /sit?

Even if this fixes it, the bug is still there

I am aware but i think this is one of those hard to reproduce rather rare bugs (sup stuck in the air bug) that would involve so many resources to fix ( probably entire redesign of pathing and player location determination algorithm, physics and what not) that it is simply not worth it for Anet to bother.

It would be however very easy to implement emote keybinds (which obviously doesn’t solve the issue but helps to deal with it).

tried to type /dance or /sit?

Curunen.8729:

Well then, playing devils advocate how about we remove all damage from phantasms and conditions from clones and make them purely utility – transfer all that damage directly to the Mesmer and buff our personal damage, both power and condition output significantly.

(not saying I want this, only countering the counter arguments for buffing illusion health)

That is what shatter build is basically.

Ele could carry in season 1 by literary tanking 1v2 even 1v3 (i have seen it plenty of times) thus causing 4v2 somewhere else. Given it was with combination of amy, various ways of dmg reduction and heals but if 1 trait forces you to bring 2 players there IS something wrong. 100% hardcounters are bad. Old DS implementation was bad. Period.

And just fyi, devs took advises from pro league players for balancing patch.

Silverkey.2078:

I expect:

• more power creep

lol couldn’t say better

This is preview of new thief elite – bear form!
This video says much about wvw.
Loved music~

UA is cancelled if target goes in stealth.

I will just say for d/p: it heavily depends on who/what you are fighting and in what situation as well as on what map you are. Simple examples: headshotting DH is almost pointless as traps are instant. HS is pointless unless someone is low and running away. Shadowshot can be good to get to someone on balcony, it is pointless if your target is in mid of enemy aoe etc.

Then there is also personal thing: every player plays bit different even if they run same build. I knew mes that would instagib most thieves by executing shatter combos at ridiculous speed. His weakness was however how predictable he was (in a sense, because after couple of engages his tactics started to vary): when he saw me go in stealth, he counted and used shatter expecting me to go for backstab. Meanwhile i was camping stealth for few sec longer waiting for him to waste his CDs and attacked him when he had almost nothing left because i knew his playstyle. Other time i would come out of stealth for sec and then instead of pressuring him, run away and hide, leaving him with the choice of wasting CDs or risk and wait to get stabbed (those were truly fun matches due to mindgames, he is really good player and could down me with ease if i did 1 mistake).

Another example: i tended to queue into same thief that always used steal if i got basi opener on him. Shadowshot right after backstab usually sufficed to prevent his steal and down him eventually. Unlike the mesmer above that thief sadly didn’t try different tactics.

Then there were your average mesmers that did the same rotation at same boring speed like everyone else. You literary could see every spell coming and act to it accordingly before he even used it.

The problem is of course you need to know player style (then again if your rating is high enough and/or you play during off-hours you face same people over and over and over and over again).

I honestly think the source of the issue (the amount of condi flying around and how easy it is applied now) should be fixed and not tools to deal with it. I dare to say that this game was more fun and made more sense in the past when stun breaks, condi cleanse but as well condi applications and CCs were scarce and came at rather high (opportunity) costs.

I don’t think encouraging AI builds in pvp is good idea. Or just any buff to AI for that matter.

PvP is player vs player, not player vs pet. While certainly AI comes with certain disadvantages (it acts according to algorithm, pathing issues) it also has advantages over any player (no need for targeting, no lag, no reliance on reflexes, finger memory, no need to stand on point, no disadvantage with death, bodyblocking for caster, soaking up all enemy aoe for caster etc.)

Let’s also mention the fact that even common shatter mesmer already floods the screen with all kind of variety of pink zoo. I had for example one of those lovely matches vs 2 necros (spawning horrors off enemies and having couple of pets) and 3 mesmers. My eyes were bleeding from just looking at sea of AI on my screen. Please no more of that.

I think rewarding players for trying was a good thing. Now most people will just afk. And this is a problem because i actually won a lot of matches (even silly like 500-499) that seemed to be pretty lost only because people were still trying to get higher score so they don’t lose pips.

I understand that matchmaking changed a bit but i think if your team reached certain threshold (e.g. 450) you at least shouldn’t lose pip. Then again i guess it depends on how close matches will be. problem with past 3.5 years was that most matches were lopsided.

- So we had threads crying for thief nerfs for 3 years.
- Thieves got gradually reduced to junk tier (mostly because not a single dev has any experience with the class besides Ruby spamming random spells on passive golems in HotM).
- So we had threads upon threads asking to remove thieves from ranked/delete the class because it supposedly caused loses during season 1 not to mention that everyone and their mother was consistently harassing thieves in matches calling them names, telling them to reroll, uninstall, kill themself while customer support did absolutely nothing about such player griefing.
- Thieves got slight buff after season 1 (which still don’t put them anywhere close to certain elites/classes…cough scrappers… cough druid….). Thief is still only class that has to run from most 1v1.
- Now we have people like OP crying for thief nerfs.

There is just not enough facepalms for this.

Sunshine.5014:

Cynz.9437:

Not a word about obnoxious 50% winrate algorithm that makes this whole league/matchmaking system pointless~

Did you even read? Match making is not based on MMR anymore. There is no more 50% force win rate.

Yeah, there is no MMR anymore, but there is so called predetermined pip range. Also, the problem is queue times. I wouldn’t be surprised if matchmaking would increase that so called range to reduce queue times.

Lexander.4579:

shortbow skills present a good combination of damage and utility for a melee-focused class, of course all other classes have access to better ranged weapons but i’d rather see some new long-range weapon introduced to thief rather than rework shortbow

also whenever i want to do some chill pve shortbow auto attack does awesome job tagging as many mobs as possible for me :]

scrapper hammer and dh LB say hi

Really simple really: make DH traps like ranger or thief traps

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

I am actually annoyed about how even if you use teleport spells you still get hit by guardian traps/walls etc. Bad design is bad.

Afaik there is a difference between skills that teleport and skills that shadow step.

use mes port

and frankly i don’t think that shadowstep like skills should be any different in this case

Palindron.1964:

Well just have a look at the other topics talking about the Mesmer. This class is used to play only ONE BUILD to have a small chance to survive. And even this build is not competitive with other classbuilds. Cmon dont be so ignorant.

you definitely didn’t play ele during dhumfire times

then you would truly know what it means to have 1 build and extremely small chance to survive~

mesmers were NEVER in bad state, they just weren’t always stupidly faceroll (besides old PU condi)

I am actually annoyed about how even if you use teleport spells you still get hit by guardian traps/walls etc. Bad design is bad.

DC penalty doesn’t kick in right away, you actually have to be offline for a while. Personally if i notice i have bad connection i just don’t queue and don’t ruin matches for other people.
I think 1 hour dishonor is justified given that your ISP issue seem to be frequent. The game encourages you to actually fix your issue instead of ruining game for other players.

LughLongArm.5460:

Rangers sat on the bench for almost 2 years.

rangers may have not been ESL material for a while but they certanly weren’t unviable in yoloq/normal ranked

Not a word about obnoxious 50% winrate algorithm that makes this whole league/matchmaking system pointless~

Burtnik.5218:

Ithilwen.1529:

I find that statement unbelievable. Please explain. In particular please explain how a Mesmer countered a warrior prior to the heal signet nerf and how a Mesmer countered a pre nerf Hambow?

Mobility /15charrrs

Also HS is back to it prenerfed state, hammer buffed some more. You have any issues with war?

he says chronobunker was balanced, idk why you are surprised

OP, you are exaggerating. Mes are still wanted in raids and are still playable in pvp (dunno about wvw, i gave up on it long time ago).

Just because you can’t faceroll right now on mes doesn’t mean there are no players that like to play mes and class should be removed (thief was in even worse situation in season 1, i still played the class and would hate it if anet would have deleted it). As poster before said, what killing mes (and frankly a lot of other builds) is power creep (inclusive all dat aoe spam) that was introduced with HoT. If anything Anet should be focusing on reducing it than “deleting” classes.

As far as complains about mes not being viable for 2 w/e years – absolute horse crap. I have met/fought with/against good mes past few years and they were doing more than fine. In fact i loved to run spike duo with mes before HoT (after xpac went live nobody wanted to play with mah thief -_-).

The class simply requires certain amount of skill/attention/game knowledge (dps builds at least). Chronobunker was too faceroll, attracted too many fotm rerollers and spoiled average mesmer players, imo.

bigmonto.4215:

xan.8936:

Hey guys,
If I missed season I of pvp leagues can I still progress to get Ascension after the seasons are over? Thanks for you help!

Yes you can. However, you will need to cross the division lines total of 10 times as required from the achievement.

There are 3 seasons left, so at the minimum you will need to get to diamond 1 time and ruby twice. Getting to Ruby is easy, just play enough and you will eventually get there, diamond however is questionable.

If you are decent and have a lot of time to play, then sure, otherwise probably not.

he can get even legend if he spams matches non-stop, leagues are really hardly different from old farmboards

The Ace.9105:

lloydst.6985:

Its funny because you determine their skill level by their toon they switched too maybe they suck on their main too the problem isnt the stack/switching off classes its the way matchmaking and balance works in this game locking classes would make it allmost impossible for solo queuers as classes arent taken in account when setting up matches since there are 9 classes its ridiculus to think you will allways face even comps switching toons enables you too make matches more even and carry the kitten teamates you get grouped with

I think the point here was that if a player who has like 1000 games on 1 class swaps to class with 20 games it means that your team plays 4v5.

unless that class is autofaceroll like old turret engi :P

What is their objective? Make money, by all means possible :P

walk away, that is how

given same skill level no scrapper should ever lose to a thief in 1v1 – too much sustain and too much dmg not to mention hardcounter

i miss old design as well
risk/reward
distinct roles
distinct strength/weakness
opportunity costs

all got thrown out of the window withing past 2 years or so

my guess is, people who created this game initially either quit their jobs or got fired

Dristig.9678:

Fivedawgs.4267:

I main warrior, so I definitely get our tradeoff but I doubt engi are that perfect. I mean they have to sacrifice something to get burst/sustain or whatever.

You really need to go play some meta scrapper. It is better in every conceivable way than Warrior. It’s very sad right now. The only “skillful” thing is being able to get off your healing turret blast but calling that skillful is sort of a joke.

You would be surprised. Some poster in scrapper thread tried to prove me that scrappers require high skill, good knowledge of game and not what because of water field blast…..

sounds like a bug

Spooko.5436:

u can try and minimize this,

but the point is, you gotta bring the right tool to the job, sure it was skyhammer, and i played knockback engi, regardless

i still destroyed a premade in a 4v5, which is more than anyone else in this game ever has or will do

premades do have advantage but it only matters at higher tiers, at lower tiers you see mostly some random guild groups that barely ever touch pvp

given how unranked matchmaking is hardly working properly i wouldn’t be surprised if this guild group was just doing guild missions or something

getting 400 on skyhammer is stupidy easy if you camp hammer all game/play knockback build

I probably will get flamed but i think eles are fine actually and are at least not on autopilot anymore like they were since celestial became a thing. Some outperforming builds need to be toned down (see scrapper, reaper and co.) and then game would be actually somehow enjoyable, imo.

one word: skyhammer

OP pretty much stated in other thread that chronobunker in season 1 was fine. I think it says everything.

@OP: devs themself said that elites were supposed to bring varierity and not be stronger than core builds. There is no denial that elites were made stupidly strong to sell HoT but it was pretty clear that they will get some nerfs at some point once enough HoT copies were sold.

verp you must be bored

that would be lovely~

If you want to nerf dagger auto then buff backstab: atm it hits for 3k on average and requires a lot of effort.

I wouldn’t put reaper on first place: they are slow and don’t handle focus fire very well. Also their team support is rather limited. Soloq will be probably flooded with them but hardly tourneys, imo.