Guild Wars 2

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.

I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.

By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).

Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.

Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.

Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.

But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.

Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.

Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.

But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.

Grind is subjective it seems.

Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.

And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.

But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?

Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.

Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.

Devata.6589:

No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.

I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.

By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).

Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.

Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.

Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.

But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.

Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.

Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.

But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.

Grind is subjective it seems.

Devata.6589:

I did it multiple times, like I said I leveled all my characters in there but I did not do it the way you suggest, only the first level. That would also not work for leveling up all my characters.

I played the whole game on every character once a day. Those bubbles I did earn along the way. The sellable drops where nice but indeed not that great, that why I said ‘if only the mini’s would be available in there’ while of course you then have the problem of temporary availability. Then again, that was the same now because they were now temporary cash-shop items.

So did I play it many times? Yes, did I simply grind the currency (baubles) no. Did the rewards where part of the fun / reason for playing? Yes. That’s why with the second SAB I only did it in one character. While by that time the game had also become too big to do really do on all characters on a daily basis. But I would then more likely have switched between them.

But all in all it never did feel like a grind or I did it really play it as a grind, so just trying to get the baubles in the fastest way as you said, it was always a combination of the fun of doing it in combination with earning the rewards.

I still don’t think the two are the same but yeah it was a step in the right direction.

But do you see? Right there, you just admitted to grinding, but saying it didn’t feel like a grind. BUT IT WAS! You played it over and over again, multiple characters, for the rewards, RNG rewards at the boss chests, and bauble rewards.

So basically Anet needs to take the grind they had in SAB v1 and go from there. You’ll be grinding, but not feel like you’re grinding. BUT STILL GRINDING!

Another thought that occured to me last night. Something that may help to make gold not feel all so important. What we need is a currency that you get all the time, for doing pretty much anything in the game, and increase its usefulness and value. Something like…oh I don’t know…KARMA.

If karma was use more than gold (of course this would cause inflation on the market though), there may be less whining. Do events you like, you earn karma, go spend it in another zone vendor for something you want. heck, to help stabilize gold a bit, combine karma and gold for items. 5g and X karma for an high value item or something. This currency is just sitting there in the game, doing nothing at the end (after spending for easy exotics at temples) and you earn it for basically doing any events you want in the game. So lets make it actually have value now at the end game.

Devata.6589:

phys.7689:

Serophous.9085:

DavidH.7380:

Like Vayne, I’ve played (not a whole lot) traditional MMOs that would do things like require you to kill 1,000 centaurs in Queensdale to get a rare drop or to level the faction reputation necessary to purchase the fractal dungeon key that is required to even enter a level one fractal and see the content. And there is no other way to see the content / item except to spend days doing nothing but running in circles killing centaurs. And as soon as the next content or items are added you’ll have another similar gatekeeper grind to do somewhere else.

In my opinion, Anet does a decent job of avoiding that kind of traditional and content limiting grind in the game. They don’t, however, eliminate the necessity to engage in significant repetition of content in order to obtain worthwhile rewards. I doubt that is even possible. IMHO, that is really the heart of this discussion… is it even possible for a MMO to largely eliminate significant content repetition, and if not, how do we make what clearly IS a grind / farm not feel so grindy / farmy?

Then let’s actually discuss the heart of the discussion rather than go around in in a circle like we have.

So you run a dungeon once, and your are garunteed an item you wanted, why do you want to go back? Sure, can be fun the first five times, but it gets boring, specially if you are getting the same item over and over.

Make the dungeons harder or longer? Yeah, I think anet will tick off the demographic they are aiming for doing that.

Let’s face it, in this day of age, those of us who look at YouTube or the net for guides get content done fast, because in pve, its all scripted. Even if you change it up, there are only so many variables that it wouldn’t matter since it will still be memorized.

Anet only has so much man power to pump out content and test it privately, then release on a two week schedule, so adding content faster is really asking for a lot.

So how exactly do you implement something that retains players, and isn’t considered grind?

the game doesnt have a good balance of rewards. Other games juggle it a lot better. SAB (the first one)juggled it waaaay better.
A) you get content sensitive rewards/abilities from mastering the area (find this go here, etc)
B) you have a rare chance of sellable drop on success.
C) you can get a non sellable version by either mastering the levels (finding and getting all the hidden marbles as fast as possible) or at a slower pace with low mastery through repetition.

there are even better versions, but the main point is gw2 current system isnt working very well, loot/grind/rewarding feeling wise

Agreed about SAB version 1. It was still not optimal but much better then most of what we see in GW2. If only the SAB mini’s would also have been available in SAB (in a not time limited way).

With the first version I also leveled all my alts up to the max in SAB and had fun doing it, with the second version only one as it was not rewarding to do it with the others. And it’s safe to assume that this reward model was also part of the reason for it’s popularity.

uhh…SAB when it first came out can be compared to silverwastes now:
Oh hey, need baubles? Fastest way is to just GRIND level 1-1 over and over again so you can buy all your skins easily. Oh sure, take the rare chance for the sellable skin to drop, but now that becomes worthless to me, i’ll just sell it in hopes of someone who doesn’t want to do this process will buy with gold.

Sure, first playthrough you didn’t know where all the abilities are or the cost, but once you did, back to level 1-1, farm up a bunch again, and buy all easily. when the v2 came out, this was basically a must because of the lack of baubles in world 2. Face it, SAB was pure grind, but people had nostalgia or fun doing it, so it was hidden.

Comparing it to silverwastes….
Oh hey! I can run around and collect bandit crests to buy the armor pieces. Oh sure, there are chests, or bosses, or the maze that can drop additional pieces for me to shorten the grind, and yay for that! And yay for the final boss dropping chest, but boo its not for sale.

Its all the same. Replace crests with baubles, and you are running around basically collecting them by doing events instead of them just lying about.

DavidH.7380:

Like Vayne, I’ve played (not a whole lot) traditional MMOs that would do things like require you to kill 1,000 centaurs in Queensdale to get a rare drop or to level the faction reputation necessary to purchase the fractal dungeon key that is required to even enter a level one fractal and see the content. And there is no other way to see the content / item except to spend days doing nothing but running in circles killing centaurs. And as soon as the next content or items are added you’ll have another similar gatekeeper grind to do somewhere else.

In my opinion, Anet does a decent job of avoiding that kind of traditional and content limiting grind in the game. They don’t, however, eliminate the necessity to engage in significant repetition of content in order to obtain worthwhile rewards. I doubt that is even possible. IMHO, that is really the heart of this discussion… is it even possible for a MMO to largely eliminate significant content repetition, and if not, how do we make what clearly IS a grind / farm not feel so grindy / farmy?

Then let’s actually discuss the heart of the discussion rather than go around in in a circle like we have.

So you run a dungeon once, and your are garunteed an item you wanted, why do you want to go back? Sure, can be fun the first five times, but it gets boring, specially if you are getting the same item over and over.

Make the dungeons harder or longer? Yeah, I think anet will tick off the demographic they are aiming for doing that.

Let’s face it, in this day of age, those of us who look at YouTube or the net for guides get content done fast, because in pve, its all scripted. Even if you change it up, there are only so many variables that it wouldn’t matter since it will still be memorized.

Anet only has so much man power to pump out content and test it privately, then release on a two week schedule, so adding content faster is really asking for a lot.

So how exactly do you implement something that retains players, and isn’t considered grind?

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

WoW has content every three months, mostly in the form of a raid (which they time gate nowadays so players don’t burn through it) and maybe a dungeon or two or a new area. That’s the usual content update. Once in a rare while they add a new system (I think twitter is the new one now) or something else big.

But they have never been good with the lack of content between xpacs. What was it between MoP and WoD? A year+? Then there was the lack between wotlk and cata….

And so wait, so now “grinding” for mounts in WoW isn’t “grinding?” I could’ve sworn it was. I kept going for that tiger mount every reset and never got it. Then there was the lightsaber sword that dropped off of a rarespawn that you had to check every so often, see if it was there, pray someone else wasn’t near to steal or backstab (if on PvP), kill it, then hope RNG was good to you.

I mean, if that’s the type of system we are looking for….wtf?

You lost so much money sadly….

Do any events you come across, this is your main source of XP.
Salvage using the cheap salvage kit.
When you eventually hit 80, you can get easy exotics with karma at the temple vendors. Use the wiki to find out who has what, or be adventurous and discover on your own!
Don’t be afraid to ask for help or help in events. Shift clicking a point of interest (PoI) or way point will guide people better

Test.8734:

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, this topic should be locked:

1. Anet replied to the concern
2. I think everyone has covered both sides of the topic thoroughly

Not much left. The only reason anyone would want to have it left open is because they are campaigning.

To be honest, the amount of posts help. The circular discussions don’t do anything, but it’s different for ArenaNet to see, “Look, there are 4 THOUSAND posts complaining about traits!” than “Look, there are 8 posts talking about how Defiance sucks”.

Just see Vayne’s post a bit above mine – he claims that he knew a lot of people felt they didn’t have anything do to at max level because a lot of people were complaining on the forum about it. If we see a lot of people complaining about grind on the forum (and better to do that in a single topic than have dozen topics about the same thing), maybe ArenaNet will do something about it.

People know they can look at all the posts in general forums by the tabs at top right?

It was awhile back, I think at the time the respect wherever you want was made possible, that a Dev said they would love to work on templates and were going to look in to it.

I’m going to assume its backburnered atm, or a HoT thing hopefully

Gulesave.5073:

Here’s your checksheet to know if your standstill behavior is a problem:

• Are you receiving rewards without actively contributing?
• Are you dying to mobs and letting players waste their time reviving you?
• Is your presence up-scaling events that you aren’t participating in?

If you answered no to all three, you’re fine. A single yes, and you need to consider relocating.

/thread

I think I get this now. And people like to ask for the impossible.

Each person here, individually, wants anet to design the game around THEIR needs, THEIR definitions of what is grind, THEIR wants. If anet fails to meet those standards, then its horrible, grindy, and unfun.

This thread is just starting to turn into a shouting match between people and clashing of ideals, all failing to accept one thing, anet’s definition. Apparently, just as we can’t accept each others, we can’t accept their. Tell me, in the example with DDO, what happens if someone says 20 times is too much of a grind? What about 10? Where is the line drawn?

Now, ask yourselves this. What content have you been denied? What haven’t you n able to play because you don’t have full ascended for, other than the obvious high level fractals? Did people fail the LS because of no ascended? Did people fail dungeons because of no ascended? What are you denied exactly without ascended? People gloat over gw1 with story and the pve and apparently never complained about do the same dungeons over and over again for collecting items for rare gear that was only for looks. How is that any different than now?

I could mention how path of exile or warframe have greater grind than gw2, but it wouldn’t matter. They would be dismissed in some way as they wouldn’t match with someone elses opinion.

In the end, what matters is, are you having fun? Yes? Great! Keep playing! Voice concerns or problems, but don’t act like you are a boss. A customer is a customer. Anet will try to keep you, but if demands become absurb, then its best to just ignore.

If you aren’t having fun, and if you feel anet is just ignoring you, then its time to just leave. Logging on, posting on forums, is still showing them you have interest. If you want to really see change, you need to stop showing up as numbers. TESO went b2p because not enough people signing up for subscription, rift and SWTOR went f2p after being buy and sub because of low numbers.

If anets numbers are in the area they want them, then they won’t worry. But continuing to post on forums or log in is saying the opposite to them.

But hey, why does my opinion matter? I’m having fun playing how the game is right now, which is taboo to everyone else apparently. I’m just the odd one out.

What stealth? There is no stealth in the game. There’s invisibility, but not stealth

I can attest to the ops story from this morning at indigo, though not the same instance. People were popping bubbles too early. I said stop. After the first popped, they ran immediately to the other, continuing to do so in the circle, despite people telling the not to in map and /s. They continued even after I whispered. We still downed them with 10 sec left, but it shouldve been a faster kill.

Which content is affected?
All content

What is the problem? People. People are jerks or lazy. The jerks demand the best optimal build forged by other people who spent time researching and finding the best high dmg specs. If you don’t spec that way, you are called a scrub and people with thin skin get hurt, not realizing its just over a computer screen and you will never see that person ever again.
The lazy are people who stand there asking to join a group and dealing with jerks, not realizing they can just make their own group and say all are welcome and be off playing. Instead, its better to sit there, do nothing, and complain.

How does it negatively impact your game experience? Only when I am chatting in map chat and it comes up, turning into a debate when people were trying to have fun, and thus the fun is ruined cause rage.

Also seeing the same topic over and over again on the forums.

Solution: I’m the one leaving those empty bottles of rum in the silverwastes

Lazaar.9123:

Serophous.9085:

Lazaar.9123:

Well according to the interviews, the collections are actually being influenced by the lumi armor collections, which don’t involve rare tradeable items.

I don’t know bout you, but I did make a bit of profit with the rare skulls for the last two collections…

And that has relevance how? That still only cost a single player 40-50 silver, which is pretty much nothing.

Well, I can’t answer fully, just on speculation. But if there is an item like that, not easily farmable, the same trend that is going on with precursors before this announcement will start to happen. Its all going to depend what items are needed. But people playing the to will try to find a way

Lazaar.9123:

Well according to the interviews, the collections are actually being influenced by the lumi armor collections, which don’t involve rare tradeable items.

I don’t know bout you, but I did make a bit of profit with the rare skulls for the last two collections…

Yeah, I somehow see the collections turning into how fun it is to get the karmatic infuser.
And Chances are, once people find the rare item needed, they’ll buy them up and resell higher.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Blade Syphon.4325:

Because right now, yes, getting Ascended Armor is either a very expensive endeavor, or a very long grind of doing the same mundane tasks to get the materials needed to make the armor. Hiding behind the arugment of “But we have more then one way to get those materials” doesn’t work either, as like I said before those other methods are either just as repetitive (replacing World Boss grinding with Guild Mission grinding for Dragonite Ore, as an example) or so unrewarding (PvP Tracks), that there’s very little reason to actually do it.

OK but that’s inventing your own definition of what grinding is so of course you conclude you have to grind. The relevant one is from Anet’s perspective because they design the game. If your definition of grind includes multiple methods to be done to get the mats then no reasonable content can be devised to ensure you don’t think the game will be a grind for ascended gear. Literally, Anet would have to devise content for EVERY instance of need some portion of the mats you need to satisfy an extreme definition of no grinding. I think we can agree that would be insurmountable.

he clarified what he means by grind, but regardless of what he means, the “grind” that people often dislike involves repetive non interesting tasks that you have to do many many times to achieve your goals.

now if he means by the definition i just gave, masteries, and this expansion wont be grindy, then many will be happy.

But if he simply means it will either not be required for survival, or that there will be multiple repetive, uninteresting things you can do 1000s of times, they wont be that happy.

what people in this thread are trying to point out, is that regardless of what colin means when he says grindy, the game overall in fact feels very grindy to them. So much so that whenever they mention a lack of grind the players feel a strong disconect with how they expereince the game, and what the developers think is happening.

this bothers them a lot, not just because grind exists, but it makes it seem like the developers arent really on the same page as the players.

a grindy game where the developers are like we want people who put a lot of time in to feel rewarded, or we want you to be working on X item for 3 months. At least you are sure the developers intent. But when people hear them say gw2 isnt grindy, they are often like wait what? you mean you didnt do that on purpose? Im not supposed to be gathering gold or grinding cloth for my ascended armor for 30 days?

And what is anet to do? Follow everyone’s own personal definition of grind? No, Colin stated what their definition is. People can argue what their definition is, but in truth, they did stick too it to 99%, the 1 being ascended, which again, Colin admitted to.

So, by their definition, they did not make a grindy game. And they didn’t. I don’t find myself having to run in circles killing mobs to get to the next level because I ran out of hearts. I agree with their definition, its the same one I’ve been saying.

But honestly, take a step back and look at what everyone considers a grind. Do you honestly want to get to a point where if you have to do something a second time in this game, people will throw rocks and scream “no grind!”. No. So to ask them to adhere to every different definition, is asking for the impossible.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

@ OP, the boomsticks on TS are really loud. And knowing that if you record something a distance from the origin of the sound, that it’s much more silent (wich means with the sticks this should be the case, since sound recording was on stage), it would mean it indeed should have been crazy loud for your ears.

To me Jennifer hale was dissapointing (on twitch). My first click on channel was a rebroadcast, and colin was speaking ok loud, but still to silent at my normal settings, so i pushed it pretty loud (hey i missed the live stream for 4 hours, and finally came home, so was excited). Then I managed to finally watch form beginning, and knowing Hale from mass effect (love her there) and same for her voice in gw2, i expected a nice, friendly, not to loud voice. Boy was I wrong, such a crazy loud, shouting, almost angry voice from her. That really hurted my ears on twitch. Had to mute immediately. And her look was similar dissapointing, the picture on the web, show her as a much nicer person then she look on the gw2 pax south stage. Dunno what is up with her.

She lost a bracelet when clapping, that’s what was up

nGumball.1283:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

phys.7689:

Serophous.9085:

Orpheal.8263:

The game has alot more grind, than many people think .

Other than ascended gear, name one other thing that is a grind in this game. Colin even gave their definition of what grind is to them. So by his definition (as everyone is just ignoring it and submitting their own), name one other.

there is a ton of grindy things in this game, but you will say most of that is cosmetic. Ascended however is in bounds in the discussion on required grinds, according to colin. He said something to the effect that is not considered a cosmetic goal.

in order to communicate well, you generally have to be on the same page with your terminology. If he defines grind of having only one possible choice of repetive tasks, he is correct. However, for most people having two choices or thee choices of repetitive tasks doesnt really change the feeling of grind.

lets say in order to get something you want you can.

A) write i want X item 10,000 times
B) Walk on a treadmill for 20 miles
C) put in 10,000 batteries in remotes

all of those options are grindy, having the option to do 3 grindy things barely lessens the actual feeling of grind.

now lets say they throw in more interesting things, but reduce the effeviency

D) skateboard for 1000 hours
E) draw 2000 illustrations
F) dance the samba 30,000 times

while those options are more interesting, they are not real options due to how ineffecient they are, also, even if you enjoy these things, given those numbers, they will, for most people begin to feel grindy.

so really, i would say what makes something feel grindy, is how interesting it is, and how many repetitions you have to do to achieve a certain goal.

Varying the methods of aquisition is one good way to lower the feelings of grind, but the methods of aquisition have to be compareable, and no matter what if all of them have a huge amount of repetitions, it will feel grindy as long as you are focused on the goal. Now, yes, everyone has different feelings/definitions/thresholds for grind. Still there is some common points, between people, and somethings that you just have to look at the numbers to know, this will be grindy.

Sigh…when I said “other than ascended gear”, it means its already admitted its grindy. I personally don’t view it as needed, and have only acquired pieces if I felt like it.

Throughout my gameplay in gw2, I never felt like I was grinding. Not. Once. But what you described there, and what everyone is confusing it with, is FARMING.

The champ FARM trains, the FARMING of Orr, the FARM in Silverwastes, is just that, FARMING. I didn’t see forum topics of nerfed grind spots, they were nerfed FARMED spots.

You FARM something that is optional and actually not needed to progress in content.
You GRIND for something that is REQUIRED to progress. In other words, you are prohibited from content you paid for. The only thing I see that with IS the ascended gear which is REQUIRED for higher level fractals. But at the same time, I don’t care for high level fractals, so I don’t feel its a grind for me at least.

If people would start saying " wow, gw2 has a lot of farming in it". I would agree, a lot of optional farming. Now how bout that main story though? Isn’t it great we don’t have to grind in order to progress through it?

Isn’t farming going for a specific item while grinding is more like going for a currency grinding away. Well those champ trains where there for the gold, the items they got where to sell for gold. That makes it grinding, not farming. But whatever, people dislike it and it’s there. No mather if you call it grinding or farming.

Going for a specific item and getting the currency to buy it are both two ways of grinding… or farming, whatever you want to call it.

Sigh…OK, please actually read and try to understand….

You GRIND for something the game requires you to progress. Ex. Needing tier 1 gear to do the next dungeon.
You FARM for something optional that in no way impacts your progression or denies you content.

What’s next? Gold Farmers being called Gold Grinders?

If that one item prevents you from continuing on to content meant to progress you, its a grind. If that item does none of that, that if you ignore it and it would have 0 impact in doing so, its a farm

4) technically, not flying, falling with style :p
5) I hated those boomsticks on the live stream I hate boomsticks in general. I count them as almost annoying as the vuvuzaela.

phys.7689:

Serophous.9085:

Orpheal.8263:

The game has alot more grind, than many people think .

Other than ascended gear, name one other thing that is a grind in this game. Colin even gave their definition of what grind is to them. So by his definition (as everyone is just ignoring it and submitting their own), name one other.

there is a ton of grindy things in this game, but you will say most of that is cosmetic. Ascended however is in bounds in the discussion on required grinds, according to colin. He said something to the effect that is not considered a cosmetic goal.

in order to communicate well, you generally have to be on the same page with your terminology. If he defines grind of having only one possible choice of repetive tasks, he is correct. However, for most people having two choices or thee choices of repetitive tasks doesnt really change the feeling of grind.

lets say in order to get something you want you can.

A) write i want X item 10,000 times
B) Walk on a treadmill for 20 miles
C) put in 10,000 batteries in remotes

all of those options are grindy, having the option to do 3 grindy things barely lessens the actual feeling of grind.

now lets say they throw in more interesting things, but reduce the effeviency

D) skateboard for 1000 hours
E) draw 2000 illustrations
F) dance the samba 30,000 times

while those options are more interesting, they are not real options due to how ineffecient they are, also, even if you enjoy these things, given those numbers, they will, for most people begin to feel grindy.

so really, i would say what makes something feel grindy, is how interesting it is, and how many repetitions you have to do to achieve a certain goal.

Varying the methods of aquisition is one good way to lower the feelings of grind, but the methods of aquisition have to be compareable, and no matter what if all of them have a huge amount of repetitions, it will feel grindy as long as you are focused on the goal. Now, yes, everyone has different feelings/definitions/thresholds for grind. Still there is some common points, between people, and somethings that you just have to look at the numbers to know, this will be grindy.

Sigh…when I said “other than ascended gear”, it means its already admitted its grindy. I personally don’t view it as needed, and have only acquired pieces if I felt like it.

Throughout my gameplay in gw2, I never felt like I was grinding. Not. Once. But what you described there, and what everyone is confusing it with, is FARMING.

The champ FARM trains, the FARMING of Orr, the FARM in Silverwastes, is just that, FARMING. I didn’t see forum topics of nerfed grind spots, they were nerfed FARMED spots.

You FARM something that is optional and actually not needed to progress in content.
You GRIND for something that is REQUIRED to progress. In other words, you are prohibited from content you paid for. The only thing I see that with IS the ascended gear which is REQUIRED for higher level fractals. But at the same time, I don’t care for high level fractals, so I don’t feel its a grind for me at least.

If people would start saying " wow, gw2 has a lot of farming in it". I would agree, a lot of optional farming. Now how bout that main story though? Isn’t it great we don’t have to grind in order to progress through it?

Orpheal.8263:

The game has alot more grind, than many people think .

Other than ascended gear, name one other thing that is a grind in this game. Colin even gave their definition of what grind is to them. So by his definition (as everyone is just ignoring it and submitting their own), name one other.

Behellagh.1468:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals.

Except they’re not. Bloodstone from exotic champ bags. Okay, so you have to take on champs. Easy enough to do in groups but sometimes, a lot of times, you don’t “qualify” for the exotic bag. I’m not talking about standing autocasting your 1 attack but throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it. Champs at boss events are a lot tougher simply due to the number of players attacking if the qualifier is some % of damage done to indicate participation.

That said most players have 30 stacks of bloodstone. Dragonite and Empyreal drop easiest from Dungeons, Fractals or PvP. If you don’t do those because you don’t like those types of play, you are stuck getting a few here and there while PvPers or Dungeon runners (including Fractals) get them by the truck load.

You may not think it’s grinding, but when the most direct way to get the materials for ascended mats is doing activities you aren’t thrilled about over and over again, I think most people would consider that grinding.

Just another PoV to consider.

Uhhh, those of us who farm Silverwastes have stacks upon stacks of ascended stuff we can give up. I’ve already hit 250 bars of each.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

I bolded the most obvious statement.

Now to sit back and enjoy my lunch and watch the thread explode with a smile on my face. Now as Hand Flow would say. “Nailed It!”

I’m gonna say what someone else said what would’ve been cool:

“If the SAB music played at the end of the trailer with a black screen….”

I garunteed if that happen, the roar would’ve been deafening.

OK, I think I see the problem here. Grinding and Farming are trying to be tied down under one thing.

Grinding is usually associated with levels (ex an expansion raising lv cap), or attaining gear you NEED to progress to the next tier of difficulty, in which case you must grind again for new gear stats to continue on and on. In other words, grind is a MUST.

Farming, on the other hand, is used to get stuff that is optional for different reasons. Some farm for gold, others for looks, and some for some kind of pristeige (as in WoW you use to farm old raids for mounts).

And there’s the problem. Some players feel the NEED to get that optional stuff, so they call it a grind, when really, they are just farming. You actually don’t NEED anything in the silverwastes. You don’t NEED anything in dry top. But because it feels like something you NEED, its thought of as a grind, when really its a farm

Zero Day.2594:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.

So is there grind for just cosmetics or cosmetics and stats?
5% is 5%, it’s there, it exists, you can’t deny it. You can choose to ignore it, convince yourself it’s not needed, attempt to convince others it’s not needed, but the fact of the matter remains, it’s a 5% increase in stats.

OK, you do know you can do the LS in exotic gear right? I bet even in rare and a green or two. You can do any of the events in the world too, WITHOUT ascended. Why do people think that Anet is holding a bag of kittens over molten lava threatening them that if you don’t get ascended gear, they drop them. They aren’t! You don’t have to!

Players: Expansion! Expansion!
Anet: We are going to try giving content through the LS…
Players: EXPANSION! EXPANSION!
Anet: Fine, here is an expansion.
Players: Ha! You’re only doing it because sales have fallen!

When they say “no grind” this is what they mean:

In wow, you do the first raid multiple times over and over to not only gear yourself, but other members. Why? Because the next raid to come out will REQUIRE that gear in order to even attempt, and you repeat the process to prepare for the NEXT raid. In other words, if you want to see the new content, grind the old to be able to even attempt.

In gw2, depending how much karma you have, gold, and materials, you can get exotic gear very easily. After that (I may be wrong in assuming things are based on exotic gear levels), you are set, done, fanito. You have access to everything and barred from nothing, except high level fractals for resist.

The “grind” that is here is for LOOKS only. You don’t NEED that item unless you want it. That item isn’t barring you from access to a map or dungeon. Its there to make you look different.

Those items are like going to an arcade with ticket prizes. Play a game you like, get tickets. Get enough and get a reward. Rinse, repeat.

People are taking the specialization the wrong way, so kudos to everyone trying to set it straight.

Specialization DOES NOT mean your character gets stronger, it means it plays DIFFERENTLY. If you choose to not go druid, you are suppose to be (balancing issues of course pending as always) as equally valuable as a ranger.

Now, is anyone gonna comment on the engi wielding a two handed hammer (wtb mace so I can use The Fixer though ) with DRONES flying around him?

Stepping back, I view this like in DnD 3.0/3.5, where you advance as one class, putting your skill points in certain areas and taking specific feats, so when you hit lv six or later, you go into a pristeige class, which can change how your abilities and character plays.

Now, how we advance our character to these specifics is unknown. But I get how they harken this back to duel professions in gw1, as I’m sure some people made up their own name for their two prof combination and skills, and while some people, despite having two, only focused on one prof and filled their bar with nothing but skills tied to it.

Now, given history, yes, I can see only one specialization at this time, because anet seems to be focusing a lot on introducing little, then balancing around it before introducing something else (expect many adjustments to Revenant).

So yes, I would like to see at least two options at the start, and more as the game goes on, but right now I’ll stick with my pessimism and believe that yes, it will be one.

Morthanas.8042:

Will the expansion have directx 11 support?

well, watching woodenpotatoes commentary, there were screenshots sent to the two guys of actual ingame stuff. Now, it may have been the bloom, but the quality does seem to be better.

But not sure if directx 11

Lothirieth.3408:

Hylgeriak.8250:

he was not related to gw2 at all, but just a random interviewer guy of the pax south venue.

He wasn’t a random interviewer. That was Man vs Game (http://en-gb.twitch.tv/manvsgame) who is a very popular Twitch streamer.

But yeah, he was incredibly awkward. It would have been better if someone who actually had a clue about GW2 did the interview.

Then let it be shown that popular =/= good interviewer. Get someone who actually follows the game and will ask deeper questions, than just saying the main topics and the people repeating the same thing again

CureForLiving.5360:

No the guy doing the post interview doesn’t seem to be a GW2 player, so he’s questions were rather superficial. Granted I don’t think Colin and Mike would have gone in any details anyway.

Yeah, but they did seem specifically tied so they could just repeat what they said during the event. Course, the guy could have just read from cards on the Main topics, and he just talks about it what the main headings were

So, did anet submit the questions that were allowed to be asked, or was whoever that interviewer was just didn’t watch the announcement in the first place?

Cause it was just a complete waste of time, except for the PAX East announcement. Heck, Woodenpotatoes and the other guy are asking better questions.

And yes, I know, Anet will be going into Deep Dives to explain everything. And since that is happening…then the interview was a complete waste of time anyway!

Croc.5129:

The point is to make them all actually require effort, and be rewarded for actually using their skills properly.

So then, a zerker who knows their rotation, knows when to dodge to not get killed or take dmg, doesn’t require effort. A zerker just walks up to a champ or legendary and starts wailing on it, never having to worry bout anything else?

rapthorne.7345:

X T D.6458:

I dont understand why zerker is the problem its just one of many available stats. If you or someone want to run a party full of clerics or condi builds nothing stopping you. Whats wrong with people running whatever they want, how would you feel if people were telling you what to run, and that what your running is wrong, chances are you have heard that so why go ahead and do the same exact thing to others? Let people run whatever the heck they want, dont like it, dont party up with them, dont run with them simple as that. People will always find the fastest way to do something. Get over it.

I will say that condition builds do need a long overdue buff for pve.

Berserker isn’t the problem, the fact that berserker is the only efficient way to PvE is. Something needs to be done to make things other than pure dps decent options

Actually, the problem is the dodge mechanic. Remove the 100% dmg free, and suddenly people will all have to wear some sort of toughness or vitality to survive some attacks.

Croc.5129:

Stat implementation in the game as it was does not promote equivelancy when the risk/reward structure is so closely tied to the gear you put on instead of just your own personal gameplay.

except it isn’t. Use the example of a boss that always stuns.

Sure, i could stack nothing but pwr/vit/tough and just take the hits and the dmg, OR I can change one skill on my bar to a stability skill and just keep dmging through it or using the get-out-of-all-dmg-free roll mechanic to survive along with any movement skills on my weapon that allows me to dodge.

heck, there are videos of people who do dungeons naked, and sometimes solo naked.

And then there are more of who just solo dungeons. They should be more rewarded then right? But they don’t get extra rewards at the end or gear, they get the same kitten people who ran it.

I mean, honestly, who should get rewarded more with gameplay? Someone who can dodge almost all the attacks, take next to no dmg? Or someone who stands there and just gets their face mashed in?

Actually, you know what? This could technically be done to see who did the best. Implement a scoring system. Take it off of Warframe. Who dealt the most dmg? most kills, least dmg taken, most healing, least deaths…etc, give them points, and whoever has the most wins gets a bonus.

Squee.7829:

The problem isn’t that zerker is a problem. The problem is that zerker seems to be the only solution. It’s all good to use what works, but some people actually ENJOY filling other roles that don’t involve generic glass-cannoning. And the pro-zerker group is right, removing zerker builds would not help. The solution is to find a way to make other builds and roles more useful.

The other problem are people themselves.

They just can’t hit the “create party” button for some reason.

Complaining about the meta will never go away, when something changes, a new meta will will form, the old will disappear. And then people will start complaining about the NEW meta, and the cycle continues. All you have to do is look at LoL when it comes to shifting metas. They nerf or buff something, or change something, the meta changes, and everyone adjusts to it. Then people complain about the meta, so they change something again and a new meta rises, then people complain again…

nexxe.7081:

And that’s where we disagree. Anet has the power to change it. There has been countless suggestions from more knowledgeable community members, but many have moved on now since the devs never balanced all playstyles against the zerker meta.

And here’s what will happen if / when they change the zerker meta;

The exact same thing happening now, except with the new meta.

If anyone expects that there will be absolute perfect balance in an MMO, I suggest you get a new hobby while you wait, cause its gonna be awhile.

Hylgeriak.8250:

that’s the worst possible moment for The Elder Scrolls Online that went b2p today ^^ not only GW2 is given away for almost free, but there’s also the addon announced this weekend. Man their forum is such a hate fest…never seen anything comparable lol

Well, the LoL forums are still the worse.

This one can get bad at times too…

Gaile Gray.6029:

Ben — Oh I forgot the footprints! That’s Charr, yes?

….

A piece of me just died right now.

There arent many pieces left btw….

Maethor.2810:

Serophous.9085:

Could be wrong and necros (and other professions) may be able to use different weapons, but I think Marjory is going to swap to the new class soon. As for Rytlock, well, the sword did belong to Rurik, it went back to the mists with Rytlock behind. Chances are he caught up to it, found Rurik, and Rurik embedded himself in the sword, hence the power up (or allowing Rytlock to access its full power).

Based off what has been said in previous interviews and such, the likeliest new class will be a heavy armor wearer (to even out the numbers), and it’s been said that they eventually want to make all weapons available for all classes. So could go either way.

On the Rurik thing… I would find it hilarious if you happened to be right about that, and that’s what allows Rytlock to lift the curse of the Foefire (I believe what’s said is “in the hands of the rightful heir of Ascalon” but hey, what if being IN the weapon works too?). /crackpottheory

Really, we wouldnt know HOW the magic works exactly, or if that would work. But if it DOES and DOES lift the curse, it’d probably be like with zhaitan dead. The ghosts will slowly disappear, but we have to clean up, they just wont come back. Or it would take awhile for the magic to dissipate

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Serophous.9085:

DnD tried this with 4.0, it was horrible. So no.

I didn’t think it was horrible.

. . . I thought the late periods of 3.5 with “let’s see what extra splatbooks break things the most” was horrible. But that’s me.

4 you could still splat, not to mention the mechanics for healing were god aweful as well. And having to keep track of soooo many cards later on. I did feel like I was playing an mmo again managing my bars.

Yes, 3.5 was stupidly OP later on if you knew how to do it, but it still wasn’t made to feel like an mmo. 4.0 felt like and played like an mmo, but worse.

5.0 seems promising so far

DnD tried this with 4.0, it was horrible. So no.

Well, other than the sword history, my theory on whats going to happen.

There was already two hints at the new class, one in game, one out. Rytlock disappearing, and having a new look is one, and Majory starting to use a greatsword is another. Why does Marjoy use a greatsword? Because it has her sister’s soul. How does she start fighting from now on after that? using the sword.

Could be wrong and necros (and other professions) may be able to use different weapons, but I think Marjory is going to swap to the new class soon. As for Rytlock, well, the sword did belong to Rurik, it went back to the mists with Rytlock behind. Chances are he caught up to it, found Rurik, and Rurik embedded himself in the sword, hence the power up (or allowing Rytlock to access its full power).

The only armor hinted at is legendary. Ascended was to be the gap between exotic and legendary. Legendary has same stats as exotics, just able to swap stats, which I am OK with.

Good, I’m not the only one who thought this, but there is more.

Yes, the egg needs purified. But why? Glint stood no chance against her former master so there must be another reason. And its quite obvious when you think about it.

What happens to a dragon minion when its master dies? Yeah, they either stop being made, thus die out, like the undead are after zhaitan, or it could be different for each dragon. With mord, the sylvari may just shrivel and disappear. So, either the egg will hatch and take mord’s, place, saving the sylvari, or a purified egg will act as a seed, implant in the dragon, either turning it good, or into maybe a giant, non-sentient tree.