Guild Wars 2

blitzkrieg.2451:

I think the only time mesmer hasn’t been in the meta was when spirit rangers and necros and it was a HEAVY condition meta because shatter would melt during this time because no condi clear but then it became cele meta and shatter mesmer came back due to boon stripping and burst damage on tankier targets.

.

Incorrect actually.

Shatter mesmer was overshadowed by the power of thief for he entirety of that meta simply because the thief did what the mesmer could, better, and faster.
That meta started a year ago and was just shaken up now.
To add, TWO of the top competing mesmer’s also agreed that a thief could do what the mesmer did, better, and easier.
So I don’t know what meta you are talking about where the mesmer was in it and not overshadowed by another class. Maybe you meant when the game released?

Secondly,
From the first TOL ( or WTS I cant remember) There was a thread in the pvp forum that stated what class was taken over the others.
Mesmer wasn’t in the top 5 and I believe was under necro ( I will have to do some digging in the archives to see if I can find it again.)

Those also started roughly a year ago.

Mesmer hasn’t been “in” the meta for close to 2 years.
That changed a couple of weeks ago, and while a lot of people agree that some things need to be toned down
Like Confounding Suggestions
Blinding Dissapation
and Prismatic Understanding.

A lot of the other complaints are people that need to learn how to play.

Loxsus.3841:

Really it feels like they need to increase how durable everyone is. This fixes some of the PVP problems while also not affecting much in PVE (as that stuff hits harder than most players anyway)

Some classes can already be durable

See Guardian
Necro
Cele
Warrior

I think some classes need to have some things redesigned to be functional because some of there builds do not help with actual conquest

The damage increase across the board was a good thing, as it got rid of the pure cele/tank meta that dominated pvp for 2 years

And this one
Which is just a shorter version of the one above

P.S. also the first one I linked could go on either a male or female.

Or if they wanted to make one more specific to the other you could make the locks smaller, or thinner ( some people down here call them “sistalocks”) and make them longer for the female characters.

Jahroots.6791:

+1

Also, let’s have some dreadlocks for female human and norn characters too.

The thing I like about dreads is that a lot of the styles can be gender neutral ( so less work if they are made right)

Like these styles

Ok…
So this is just one wish from a simple player.

I would really like to see dreadlocks that look…nice..in the game..
Not like they were placed on the top of the head like a mop.

The current issue I have with the ones currently in game for the human and norn are that they seem to only come from the top of the head only, when in actuality they grow all around it.
They also are short in the back when, if they are long at the top and front should be a bit longer in the back.

I don’t know if this is too much to ask and I hope it isn’t.

But could you make the dreads a bit longer and fuller around the head, like the asurans for human and norn male?

Something kinda like this

While I think that what you have done is wonderful, and I honestly thank you for taking the time to learn a new class.
The simple fact is a lot of people simply don’t want to get better or adapt.

I wish more people in this forum were like you OP, I honestly do.

Extreme.8350:

Go and try to kill eles with mesmer without using moa and null field and tell me we dont need it Also as glass mesmer thieves hit super hard 3 hits and you’re done.

You don’t need it.

Sorry
BD is bugged and it needs to be fixed.

There is no logical argument that a bugged trait should stay as it is.

Tarkan.5609:

or, since we have so many ways to enter stealth (more than mesmer) the base stealth duration should stay the same, but the 2nd minor in SA should give +2s stealth duration

I would support this, and it sounds like a good trade since one of the main defenses of thief is stealth.

Though, before any more changes to anyones stealth I wanna see how they nerf PU.
That will speak volumes on how anet will treat stealth in the future.

Gabriell.4856:

fluxit.8247:

Wetpaw.3487:

Amityel.5324:

I can still beat them!!!

nerf my class and i will still burst pple down and they will still call for mesmer nerf
really……I hope ANET balance team has a brain and wont judge classes based on solo queuers and hot joiners

I don’t want the mesmer to be nerfed.

I would be happy if Anet gave my Ranger half of the tricks a mesmer can pull off and call skill. Forget half, how about just one thing like pets that actually hit moving targets, distortion, reflect, blur, instant casts, portal, teleport, transform, blinds, rip boons, pass condi…stealth!

The added stealth blows my mind, Mesmers shouldn’t even have access to stealth in the first place.

Show me 1 single mesmer build that can do ALL that. Show me.

If mesmers are playing with a lot of reflects nowadays, how about not mindlessly spamming longbow skills from afar. How about observing the skills that are activated.

There are so many bad mesmers running around now I dont know why you guys have so much trouble killing them. Mesmers still use the same old greatsword mindwrack rotation theyve always done to spike people. This burst wad insane before the patch and is still insane now.

Yes it sucks when they sneak up on you during a fight and drop you to the ground, but theyve always been able to do this and so have many other classes. Im lookin at you mr rapid fire.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQJAsflsnha1YZawNNwsGLnGk5OgMALIoljo5hD

I didn’t complete the build but you get the idea.

Distortion – Default with F4
Reflect – Mirror Heal plus MoM trait
Blur – Sword 2
Instant casts – Default with F1-4, some weapon skills are insta
Portal – Portal
Teleport – Blink
Transform – Moa
Blinds – Torch 4
Rip boons/pass condi – Arcane Thievery
…stealth – Torch 4

Yes, they can do everything he said in one build.

You know,the best part is,
He did not specifiy this build had to actually work, he just said it had to be all in one build.

You win sir

Fay.2357:

Yes, as per testing, the pledge is operating at about 3.5x its intended effectiveness. This is well beyond the range of a simple rounding error like I had originally suspected, and definitely a bug.

…that being said, if it actually functioned as intended, the trait would be absolute garbage.

That kinda pains my soul a lil bit :I

DeceiverX.8361:

6.) A lot of people seem to be stating that PU’s stealth duration is too high, which I mentioned as a major cause of the problem, and why I explained why AOE reveals are a bad idea in regards to the scope of other classes when the notion was proposed as being a fair way to balance the mesmer’s stealth; it isn’t.

1-2 You’re right, I took a browse through your history, Sorry about the SA comment.
Secondly, that is true about perma stealth but not true about the access to stealth or the frequency, though I am not talking about perma stealth to begin with ( as that can’t be done with mesmer without a second stealth class. I believe that was confirmed from out resident mathematician) But the frequency a thief can stealth is much much higher.
Lastly
DarkSyze I am pretty sure has you beat on SA hate….though to be fair he hates the entire profession.

3-4. The frequency of classes taken was actually documented in a ToL or WTS (cant remember which) and the mesmer was actually at the bottom.
Secondly, even helseth said that D/P thief offered more to his team when he tried it.
I believe it was a thing with him and supercutie getting upset with the tools that a thief got over a mesmer, and it locked other classes out of the role of roaming, group fights, and backcapping.
Actually to quote the stream
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/sPvP-Helseth-Sensotix-Quit-Mesmer/first#post3588776
[Stream:] “I thought you said mesmer is viable?”
Mesmer isn’t viable, I am.
I have made that statement before if you look at my YouTube video.
Here is the deal: Mesmer is viable right now because the competition is kitten.

Mesmer is bad compared to backstab thief. Period.
There is nothing a Mesmer brings that makes it worth taking over a backstab Thief. Nothing. Like what exactly does a Mesmer bring that makes it worth it?
PORTAL! Exactly! That is the one thing that makes you want to bring Mesmer.
Portal! 90 second cool down utility to port the team around. That is the one reason you would bring Mesmer over Thief.
The damage of Mesmer vs Thief is pathetic. Like it’s no contest. Thief easily trumps shatter. The tools I have as Thief exceeds what I have as a Mesmer. Simple as that.
Portal is why you want to take Mesmer, but Mesmer has pathetic mobility compared to thief, way less evades, way less damage. Like the one thing Mesmer has is utility in the portal and more reliable boon stealing. But thief has so much utility as well.
You guys can bother with your Mesmer all that you want. I am not telling you to quit Mesmer, I am saying I am quitting Mesmer.
I am done playing Mesmer, I am done. I am a kitten (bad) D/P thief, but I won’t be for long. It has nothing to do with giving up on Mesmer. It is not giving up; it is just realizing that D/P has more potential. If I was as good on D/P thief as I am on Mesmer, then I´d be a much more useful player.
[Stream:] “Can you name some of the key reasons to why you don’t want to play Mesmer anymore?”

OK. Mobility: Thief wins, damage: Thief wins, survivability: Thief wins, utility: Thief slightly worse. So there you go. There you go. Thief is much better than Mesmer in every single regard and they have the same role. No point. Literally no point of playing Mesmer.

5. Cool welcome to the innovation club, your dues are 100g you can go ahead and mail them to me <_<…I think you are wrong about the innovation of the class.
I think there is plenty of room for those who look for it.
I also think there are plenty of changes A-net should implement to open up more playstyles for the thief. But I think we can both agree. The thief is not in a good place right now.

There is actually a bugged trait in illusions that is causing the stealth uptime to be higher than it actually needs to be.
A lot of mesmers have been wanting PU to be shaved to a base 2s increase for all stealth.
I think that would be fair.

ReaperJr.5967:

Solori.6025:

ReaperJr.5967:

I don’t know where you got the idea that mesmer was underpowered pre patch. Ever heard of Lord helseth? Watched him play?

Most of the people who didn’t play mesmer pre patch were daunted because mesmer had a high skill floor and ceiling. Ding ding ding, what’s new?

Now post patch, bad mesmers who get carried by buff are shouting ‘we are finally viable stop crying and l2p whiners’.

Sorry, you seemed to have missed the conversation helseth had when he admitted to mesmer being a liability for his team.
If a Top tier mesmers admits that he could help his team more playing something else. Then yes, mesmers are underpowered compared to other classes that could fill it’s roaming role, secondly, even in ToL and the world series mesmers were taken on teams MUCH less than say an ele, or thief.

But I guess you have been following the top tier meta for a while so you of course knew that already right?

Indeed. I seem to have. Mind linking the vod or video where he said that? And how long ago was that?

I found the thread. The video was on an old stream that was taken off of twitch but someone seems to have gotten the transcript of it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/sPvP-Helseth-Sensotix-Quit-Mesmer/first#post3588776

Daniel Handler.4816:

Has anyone seen Osicat? Any time I use staff or mirror images I shed a tear to my lost cat.

The first person I saw on the forums that kept me playing mesmer.
I died a lot in the beginning year of this game.. But I learned so so much.

RIP Osicat.

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

Umm……are you counting the recharge reduction of torch?

Of course I am. How else would I manage to have speculation about rounding errors on the torch recharge pulses?

Not even gonna lie, I read that in an asuran voice….
Your typing makes me think asuran…..

Anyway..
I dunno where your error could be then, was just suggesting things you may have missed…I’ll leave your lab now :I

Well, I’m fairly certain I didn’t err in my math, so there’s probably a discrepancy somewhere in the game. That’s why I did a bit of speculation about rounding errors in how the game calculates the reduction from the prestige.

Funny thing, when I was writing that response I was going to say maybe our trait was bugged, but didn’t want to second guess a mathematician ( btw I totally volunteer you to help me with my calculus HW).

Anyway, Now that we found another bugged trait, should we bring this to A-nets attention before they over nerf something for no reason?

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

Umm……are you counting the recharge reduction of torch?

Of course I am. How else would I manage to have speculation about rounding errors on the torch recharge pulses?

Not even gonna lie, I read that in an asuran voice….
Your typing makes me think asuran…..

Anyway..
I dunno where your error could be then, was just suggesting things you may have missed…I’ll leave your lab now :I

Laraley.7695:

Solori.6025:

Laraley.7695:

ASP.8093:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Shattered Concentration: Have a CD of 15 sec.

You’re mad that someone can interrupt you through Rampage, huh?

Imo a class that has so much access to interrupts shouldn’t be able to remove boons so effectively as mesmer. What actual counterplay is there?

1. The frequency of boon stripping is no where near as bad as your are making it out to be, they are tied to shatter. And if you are using shatter for defensive purposes you are not using it for boon stripping.
And if you are using shatter for boon stripping you are not using it for an opportune spike.

2. Mesmer’s have pretty much agreed that CS and PU need a shave. I think everyone in the mesmer community can come clean and say the stuns are too much and they need an ICD.

Look in this thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/We-re-in-danger-Mesmer-nerf-discussion/first#post5282286

Pretty much what we have been asking for is a nerf to the frequency of CS and an increased CD of Mantra of Distraction.

A shave of PU to grant a flat 2 seconds of stealth.

and the bug of BD to be fixed.

That is more than enough to not only put mesmer in line, but to keep mesmer on the same playing field as other classes so it isn’t out of the meta again for 2+ years.

Unless people just want mesmer’s out of the meta and suggest random nerfs that serve no real purpose but to nerf.

I’m not saying that the proposed change is fine, I’m saying there is no counterplay to mesmer cc as they can strip your stability and it can be instant. What counterplay is there? Still haven’t got the answer to my question.

Also, if you use Mind Wrack to strip boons, it’s not like it won’t do the damage anyway.

OOHHHH

I think I get what your saying.
To answer.
For boon stripping to work you need to shatter.

The most optimal shatter is done in melee range, and the easiest way to get into melee range is to stun and blink OR sword swap,
This gives you 1+ guaranteed shatter damage that isn’t easy to dodge.
Counter-

Don’t sit near a mesmer running near you with sword OR
Dodge
There are a lot of tells when a shatter is coming.

“But what if they shatter from range”

Ranged shatters are actually pretty easy to dodge, and their has been a video on Youtube that explains how to dodge a mesmer shatter spike quite well. This has been a thing for about 3 years.
The pro’s of ranged shatter-

You’re not in melee range.
You can do damage from range.

The cons-
Easily dodgeable
Clones can die on the way there
Clones can be kited until they die

Secondly-
Shatters require clones.
You are not going to shatter anything if your clones die.

AoE still works. and there isn’t a class I can think of that doesn’t have a way to deal clone killing AoE damage.

“So that explains shatter’s, but not the counter to boonstripping”

Actually I kind of does.

Shatter’s are one of a mesmers main mechanics.
It’s also one of the main sources of boon stripping
( I believe sword clones complete the sword slash chain that also removes boons)

If you learn how to dodge a shatter and/or prevent them, you can basically punish the mesmer while they try and regain control of the situation.

That’s been my experience.
If you learn the mesmer’s mechanics and take control of the encounter then you always apply pressure.

And lastly.
Burn them, don’t chase them.

Never ever ever ever chase a class that can stealth.
I learned this the hardway.

-Classes so far that do well vs a shatter mes.

-Guardian ( an old classic)
-Cele ( well…cele played well can counter everything really)
-Engineer ( condi spam works well, and burning works well. I have seen some Cele engineers do well holding a point vs a mes)
- Necro- Something to note about the necro.
I have fought great necromancers which had me scratching my head and wondering what the kitten happened, and then I have fought necromancers that go down like scotch in an Irish bar.
Soooo
Something is going on that the necromancers are cooking up that I dont like :I

MailMail.6534:

StickerHappy.8052:

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

Having DE & HM would be a nightmare. Also, making DE compete with sword trait and the reflects would be a nerf for PvE/WvW builds. It’s already competitive enough with BD being there. Oh wow look at me being considerate of other game types and all! #PatsSelfOnBack

Well..The reflects can be gotten from chaos, I do agree that it would compete heavily with the sword trait.
But..
I like bedlam.
I think DE and HM would be absolutely hilariously chaotic.

Fay.2357:

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

Umm……are you counting the recharge reduction of torch?

StickerHappy.8052:

One thing I would change is make Blinding Dissipation A GM then DE a Master. So BD competes with HM, so you can trait for defense and offense at the same time.

Just my 2 cents.

ooooohh I like this.

DHawk.2687:

no that’s how i kill mesmers, i go stealth on their clones, but doing that on a condi mesmer will kill you if you take to long to kill him/trying to find him in stealth ^^

But..dont you remove condies in stealth and regen health?

I’m confused, if you can kill condi mesmer’s is the issue then that they have similair stealth uptime to thieves so that makes them a little more difficult or?

Laraley.7695:

ASP.8093:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Shattered Concentration: Have a CD of 15 sec.

You’re mad that someone can interrupt you through Rampage, huh?

Imo a class that has so much access to interrupts shouldn’t be able to remove boons so effectively as mesmer. What actual counterplay is there?

1. The frequency of boon stripping is no where near as bad as your are making it out to be, they are tied to shatter. And if you are using shatter for defensive purposes you are not using it for boon stripping.
And if you are using shatter for boon stripping you are not using it for an opportune spike.

2. Mesmer’s have pretty much agreed that CS and PU need a shave. I think everyone in the mesmer community can come clean and say the stuns are too much and they need an ICD.

Look in this thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/We-re-in-danger-Mesmer-nerf-discussion/first#post5282286

Pretty much what we have been asking for is a nerf to the frequency of CS and an increased CD of Mantra of Distraction.

A shave of PU to grant a flat 2 seconds of stealth.

and the bug of BD to be fixed.

That is more than enough to not only put mesmer in line, but to keep mesmer on the same playing field as other classes so it isn’t out of the meta again for 2+ years.

Unless people just want mesmer’s out of the meta and suggest random nerfs that serve no real purpose but to nerf.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Diversion: Cannot be activated while dazed, stunned.
Power Lock: Cannot be activated while dazed, stunned.

There are some thoughts in changing these skills. With all the mobility, stealth, surviability and burst Mesmer have right now its too hard to outplay this class, but its possible to outplay it, the problem is here in this department.

When a class is hard CCed their skills are not available to use, so usualy if they do not stun break they will eat the burst.
Mesmer usualy plays with 2 stunbreaks, if the other class can make the mesmer use them, they should not have a get out of jail free card with those 2 skills, because with them, Mesmer can control the other player even when the Mesmer is under CC.

Its like warrior being able to earthshaker / eviscerate / bulls rush the other player when he is CC and with no stunbreaks available.

There should be more risk when playing Mesmer. Right now its too forgiving.

These changes are meant to bring some risk to Mesmer.

You forgot to compare the mesmer with Necro.
And the mesmer with ele
and the mesmer with ranger.

Those classes can still access their class mechanic or have something they can activate to not eat burst while CC’d

Are you going to nerf the other classes as well to match the mesmer nerfs you are proposing?

Like Guardian can’t use Virtue of Courage ( unless traited) OR focus block when CC’d

Necromancer can’t use Shroud (OR minion skills) when CC’d unless traited.

Ele can not use any attunement swap or utilities not specified as a stun break when cc’d

Ranger looses control of thier pet and cannot activate any of the pets skills when CC’d

Warriors cannot use any utility or stance not listed as a stunbreak when CC’d

.
That’s fair right?

Zodryn.4216:

I could maybe accept that since it encourages smarter play, but it’s still a big nerf and would require more than a damage buff to compensate. They could give us double stealth duration instead of 1s extra like mesmers have (seriously, no idea why we didn’t get the same) so we have time to wait out those blocks. That is the only way I would be OK with it.

I would actually raise the base duration of stealth utilities.

like blinding powder – base stealth duration 5s, 6s when traited.

Other than that, because of the frequency that a thief could stealth, and it’s mobility that’s about all I would change.

You still have evasion on D/D, S/P, S/D, and shortbow, and blind on D/P with the option to go into stealth without a target on D/P also.

Your duration may not be as long, but your frequency is the highest. That in and of itself is a thing many people forget.

What I propose with the Acro line is to give thieves some defense through dodging. Since they have 4 weapons with some type of evasion.
This means that even if you don’t use sword.
You get the initiative and endurance because you dodged properly.

( I should probably be specific since the one trait is sword specific.)

While yes backstab would be nerfed slightly to promote skilled play. The damage that you would be able to achieve with an extra 10% plus an unnerfed assassin’s signet OR a straight out extra 25% damage buff would warrant the reward.
Especially with the recent changes.

This will also open up some type of counterplay to the damage and pressure a thief can achieve.

Also, how frequently can someone go invuln or block vs the frequency that a thief can stealth?

P.S.
I should add that with the CnD change, I would proc the blind on skill use ( dunno if someone in that thread said that or not :I). This gives CnD some defensive purpose even outside of stealth

Galandil.9641:

Solori.6025:

-Undo the nerf you made to Pistolwhip OR buff the damage by 5-10%

So I’m not the only one still hurting for that idiotic nerf 2+ years ago.

And we told them, “it’s not PW the problem, it’s Haste”.

RIGHT!!
Then they nerfed quickness and didn’t unnerf the sword.
Like WTH.
Now that EVERYONE is doing more damage, I think the trade off of being immobile during this skill warrant’s the skill being unnerfed.

ASP.8093:

I feel like this discussion is way more personal than it needs to be. :/

Yea…
Hommie is talking about his post history like we attacked his family and dishonored his land.

Zodryn.4216:

I don’t think backstab should change. 15% bonus damage isn’t worth getting revealed so easily. Seriously, it happens so often and would make us even more useless in team fights because people will be randomly dodging, using invuln etc. for the team fight and then bam, as a free bonus they also reveal the squishy thief who now has no burst or escape.

Edit: typos, also I’m down with blind on CnD

Yea I thought about the dodgeing thing, So i changed that, dodges happen way to often to be predictable sometimes.

But things like blind,block, and invuln however are a visible status you can see.
They serve as buttons to counter burst and if they pop that when you go into stealth, the obvious choice for you then would be to wait it out or switch targets.

I would also add/suggest that blind should have reduced duration when having assassin’s signet on.

Choppy.4183:

Except I’d already agreed to changes you’re both talking about on other threads right now (PU becomes a 2s buff) PLUS a buff to Veil that you’re not currently asking for.

Yet, the very notion that I was saying PU stealth was too strong was just a warrior troll looking to nerf the class .

Sorry, when did you say that?
and when did we respond with a " everything is fine"?

Now that you have buffed damage across the board.

May I suggest to the devs a small couple ( few) of things.

-Undo the nerf you made to Pistolwhip OR buff the damage by 5-10%

- buff the damage 15% for backstab, make attacking a blocked, invulnerable,or attacking a foe while blind, from stealth reveal the thief.
My idea for this is that if you backstab a target (or use any stealth switched skill) you should be rewarded highly, and if you bait dodges and invulns, you need to be rewarded for your play, staying alive as a thief sounds easy, until you fight players that know how to fight thieves.

- Make Cloak and Dagger blind
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Cloak-and-Dagger-should-blind-as-baseline

-Undo the nerf to Assassin Signet OR make it like ranger’s Signet of the Wild.

-Combine Swindlers Equilibrium and upperhand, make the initiative regen 3 instead of 1 for the ICD attached to it

- Give the old feline grace back as a grandmaster ( make it activate on evasion)

-Buff trickster to 2 conditions

-Buff Quick pockets to 5-8 initiative ( its a GM and it should actually COMPETE with other GM choices)

I think that thieves took a hit in SA, and while that nerf was warranted imo ( i hate SA with a passion thanks to condi roamers)
I think Acro received a heavy hand for no real reason.
and some trickery traits are not worth the investment.

Thoughts?

-
-

silentnight warrior.2714:

With the recent patch, Mesmer became very strong (OP) while using some traits. I do feel that right now they are a low risk/very high reward class. Too much survivability for the damage they can put.
My changes are to bring Mesmer in line without changing his damage output, but instead they give other professions the ability to be rewarded when they hit with key skills.

Traits:
Blinding Dissipation: Have a CD of 15 sec.
Shattered Concentration: Have a CD of 15 sec.

Skills:
Diversion: Cannot be activated while dazed, stunned.
Power Lock: Cannot be activated while dazed, stunned.

I believe those changes alone will make Mesmer more in line with risk vs reward.

….
Blinding Dissipation-

Disabled to fix its unintended nature.( to stop people from crying so much liek they did for the engi )

THEN
Fixed the bug that made this trait unblockable and undodgeable.

That’s all that needs to happen. Since it already technically has a cooldown with your shatters, and if you played a mes, you know you don’t blow shatters for a blind.

Shattered Concentraiton..
Putting an ICD on this when it also technically has one from shatters not only destroys the trait it removes the counterplay from classes that can
Spam all the boons
or pulse boons like stability…
Was that your intention for the proposed change?

Diversion-Sure, only if EVERY class losses the ability to use or control their class mechanic when stunned or dazed

I doubt that will ever happen, though if you are complaining about this, I expect you will also do the same for Ele,necro,ranger, and thief right?

Power lock- Sure, only if EVERY instant skill in the game performs this way.

Choppy.4183:

I’ve consistently observed a pattern here in which people who main mesmers identify specific things they think should be nerfed, but as soon as someone who doesn’t identify as maining a mesmer expresses a general complaint (e.g. mesmers are faceroll easy to play, mesmers are op at the moment) or proposes specific changes that may even be less than the changes proposed by mesmers, all the defensive nonsense kicks into high gear. Then, suddenly, mesmers are perfect as is and everyone needs to stop hating and l2p.

I have noticed that people who don’t main mesmer propose changes that are worse, or just complain to complain, asking for things that are unreasonable or not offering constructive changes AT ALL, while filling their post with as much hyperbole as possible while also passing it off as a fact.
Without evidence to support said claim.
Then going through the thread telling everyone “defending” the class that they need to play “class A” that is actually the worst class of the original classes we have, to make it seem their claim is even more legitimate ( which i think is insulting to people that have been playing this game and have an IQ larger than 72).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Some-changes-to-Mesmer-risk-vs-reward
An example of nerfing things just to say they are nerfed.

tobascodagama.2961:

g. Changing the trait to a flat +2s instead seems pretty fair to me.

/agree
If this will calm the masses of QQ.
But it wont.
People hate stealth, and wont be satisfied until every class is a killshot war.

As for whether PU should lose some of its offensive boons for defensive ones, I wonder if it should go the other way. Stealth is defensive enough as it is, what’s the need to stack Protection or Aegis on top of it? But, on the other hand, allowing Mesmers to stack Might while hiding in stealth only reinforces the problem with stealth burst…

I agree on the aegis. I think this should be a guardian thing.
I disagree on the prot and might.
It’s a defensive trait. and only stacks 1 stack of a short duration might at that.

I think instead of Aegis, it should have a chance to proc resistance or stability.

DeceiverX.8361:

I mean really, what is a thief without Backstab, Tactical Strike, Sneak Attack, or Surprise Shot? Pretty useless outside of D/P meta-boring blindspam/Air+fire procs as all that’s really left is crappy control-less S/D acro 3spam (gutted with the 6/23 change), P/P (laughably bad except in duels), and S/P (laughably bad in general).

The mesmer right now has too much stealth. Thief got its stealth nerfed on 6/23 by the removal of quite a few stealth-build-supporting traits like Infusion. .

Two things.

What new nerf that wasn’t reported is now keeping thieves from stealthing more often than any other class?
None?
No, being a thief doesn’t mean free and easy kill anymore, sorry.
You need to relearn how to fight every class because you don’t have it easy anymore.
Saying that mesmer’s have too much stealth compared to a thief who spends next to nothing to get into stealth is laughable.
Especially when you can stealth with no CD’s at will.

Secondly,
You need to start thinking outside the box instead of relying on the SA crutch.

Mesmers, like thieves, regarded their low-standing in sPvP and used to be pretty prideful of skill-based gameplay.

Sorry, What?!
Thieves were part of the meta for spvp for basically 2 years.
Their access to stealth and mobility will insure that they are kept in the meta until something changes where mobility and/or stealth means nothing.

What game have you been playing where a team decided a mesmer and thief were on the same bottom scale level?

I don’t think anyone’s attesting to the mesmer being better. It’s just that the mesmer right now is on the same skill-requirement-tier as hammer warrior (and easier than glass longbow ranger with fewer counters – yea, I just said that) with still all of the high-reward plays it offers and then some, while out-shining some other builds/classes like burst thief in quite literally every possible way.

You sound a bit salty, at this point.

So as far as “hating” the mesmers goes, per the OP, it’s not so much that but frustration as to how currently the mesmer is a strictly better version of some other classes while taking the niche roles some of these other classes and builds once had.

Wait, you mean the niche role that only theif has been able to play since..I don’t know
Forever.
Both a mesmer and a thief are capable of +1ing a fight. Only before the patch thief was the ONLY option for that role.
Now you have 2 classes that can fulfill that role.
I can’t think of any other role that mesmer could offer that another class won’t do better.
Try thinking outside the box as far as thief builds go, you’ll be surprised at the old weaponsets that we have that are viable again.

Lastly, Some nerfs for mesmer have been suggested that I think the majority of the mesmer community can agree on.
Maybe look to those threads and offer some type of constructive post instead of the atrocious bias filled QQ post you just did.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

apharma.3741:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um. You realise you need to take camps right? Just fighting is not really the point. You are a fly on the wall to the score. The easiest way to real with PU it just to ignore it. Also I doubt you won all fights.

Also stealth disruptor traps. Should really see them coming into play over the next week.

I’ve fought a lot of mesmers in zergs, they’re terrible, they’re one trick ponies that rely on stealthing and running away as soon as you focus them. This gets them out of the fight and lets you then focus on the heavies, when they die it’s easy to clear up the mesmers.

Well, that’s if they survive, the ones on my current match up take 2s to even react to the iZerker whirling at them, by that time it’s too late as they run full zerk and go pop.

Honestly, if you need to buy stuff like stealth disruptor traps to even have a chance you know something has to be wrong.

So like the last 2+ years with thieves right?

My favourite are those P/D thieves that can solo the lord in dire gear and you have to spend 15mins trying to hunt down without stealth disruptor.

FYI, I’ve always said the same about thieves sthealth. Always. Some here operate under the very false assumption that ppl who now vent on mesmers never did vs thieves. You couldn’t be more wrong.

That ‘but it always existed with thieves’ rethoric to try and avoid the issue is ridiculous and fallacious.

I’m glad to read some mesmers that are able to acknowledge the problem tho.

SO….

are you going to complain about warriors,engies, and any rangers too because they can run away from fights also.

Or is it you just don’t like stealth.

Phantom Master.9582:

Good day fellow Mesmers of the community, its not a secret that Mesmer is currently in the spotlight for possibly being the strongest profession in the game at this moment.

Bad news is that every build that has been in this spotlight have been nerfed to dust in the past. These builds include Beast Ranger, Old Phantasm Mesmer, Spirit Ranger, Hambow Warrior, S/D Thief, Dhuumfire Necro, etc. (The only build that comes to mind that came back after getting destroyed by the spotlight is D/d elementalist, however it took an entire year for its comeback.) The gw2 balance team is dangerously influenced by the infantly cries of the forums which puts our build diversity to risk.

To avoid this fate from happening to the current shatter mesmer, we should discuss changes should be done in order to bring mesmer down to the level of the other professions without over-nerfing.

I’ll start with my suggestions:

• Power Block: Interrupts deal damage and inflict weakness. Enemy skills that you interrupt have an increased cooldown.
  This trait is really unique and cool, but the reward is insane considering the low risk now that mantras recharge in the background. The increased cooldown is 15 SECONDS! This is crazy powerful for such a low risk involving the current state of mantra of distraction. For a nerf, I would reduce the increased cooldown to 7.5seconds or less.

What I would do is two things.
Give this trait an ICD.

Then make this trait like mug. Unable to crit, since it gives so many benefits already.
This makes this trait a timing thing, and not super punishing while not becoming a “spam all the daze things” trait.

• Confounding Suggestions: Chance to inflict stun whenever you daze a target. Increased stun and daze duration.
  Mesmer have always had crazy shatter damage, this isn’t new, however it took lots of clone micromanaging and planning to properly set up for a good mindwrack burst. With this trait, its all thrown out the window, with the new Mantra of Distraction you can easily stun whenever you feel like it to setup for your burst, its easy and rewards bad mesmers as much as good mesmers which is just heartbreaking. I would remove the stun and simply slightly increase the daze duration in order to bring this trait closer to the power of the other adept traits.

This honestly should have stayed a grandmaster.
This needs to be put back as a grandmaster. and the shatter trait moved down in it’s place.

The synergy is very strong and for two strong traits, their needs to be an option.

Either you want increased cooldown and damage on interrupt OR you want to stun on interrupt.

• Prismatic Understanding: Increased stealth duration from mesmer skills. Gain random boons while you are in stealth.
  This trait doubles the duration of our stealth abilities, considering that stealth is a completely broken mechanic with no counters in this game, this gives us wayyy too much flexibility when setting up for our burst and wayyy too much forgiveness for our mistakes. I would suggest nerfing this to only a +50% stealth duration instead of the current +100%.

Personally I don’t see a big issue with PU besides the fact it’s annoying to fight.
But in a game with capture points (spvp) PU does not really help you in any other way but to run away or set up predictable stealth burst, in which case you wont be using the full duration stealth anyway.
In WvW I think of it as another option for mes to be near the same playing field as thief.
Secondly there are a few counters in game to stealth
From AoE ,to skills that force reveal, traps (coming soon) and the new lockon for engies ( flamethrower with this trait is hilarious)

Most of the people I have seen complain about stealth don’t complain because they died, they complain because the kill they were working on was denied them, and that makes them salty.

We have better trait’s than PU

Slapinator.4196:

I hope they nerf mesmer a little bit. He was in a really good spot before patch .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

no it wasn’t.

RevanCorana.8942:

Stealth is a cheap defensive tool promoting passive gameplay with low risk and no counterplay.
I think this should be fixed and it’s simple to do:
Hitting someone in stealth after the first second they entered it (with aoe fields, cleaving attacks or projectiles ) should reveal them for a short duration
That way the thieves / mesmers would not be allowed to sit comfortably in stealth waiting for cooldowns in the middle of a fight, instead he/she would have to carefully watch for oppenings, what his opponent is doing, when to step in, rewarding good positionning and smart moves.

NO,
learn to play instead.

/2012 wants their thread back

Knighthonor.4061:

If they plan to keep energy on Weapons, Staff need to come down to 35 Energy max.

I say 25 Energy Max on Weapons would be best honestly.

The current cost of energy to weapon skills hits a max of 15, but with upkeep skills and the need to use energy to heal makes this pretty noticable.

I say just remove the energy cost from weapons.
The energy cost of some utilities is already high and it seems like you are punished severely for your decision to use any type of skill with an upkeep cost, making those a lot less desirable to even consider.
What’s the point of having set utilities if you are set with the ones that are horrible

I know that a lot of people have voiced the complaint of this skill being bad.

Would it make the skill better if it had a shadow step component added to it.

The first half of this skill would be a leap to the target location and then the second half would be a teleport back if you needed to use it.

Have the AoE chill on both the arrival and the return.
This would add some anti melee to the hammer since it’s a ranged weapon that you cant switch from.
And add some type of control.
It would also give the rev some more mobility.

What do you guys think?

Can we access the hall of monuments now or is it still disabled?

messiah.1908:

1. with 2 utilities legend you have 5 weapon slot so 10 utilities in total . no other profession got 10 utilities . so you end up the same but i say bring up one more legend to choose from

Actually as far as pure skills go, you are not the same.
The fact that you cant choose what utilities you bring makes this class worse.
Secondly there is still the fact that non of the utilities address the problem of having a melee or ranged option with the weapon you choose.

Allowing weapon swap on this character would address the issue of being shoehorned into utilities that you can’t customize since NON of the utilites give you a melee or ranged attack weapon option like the engi or ele.

2. if you want condition with mace /axe you take healing legend and condition legend so you build yourself around condition. same with hammer you take jalis

That’s a problem, I’m not sure if you are seeing that or not.
You are shoehorned into a specific weapon, traitline, and legend.
Non of the other traitlines have synergy with a different theme or weapon.
You cant spec corruption and use a staff OR hammer
You cant spec Salvation and use a mace/axe.
And when we get shiro, you wont spec staff or hammer (unless they somehow make sweeping changes to the traitlines and utilities)

You are basically being told what you can run, limiting the “play like you want” mantra that the game was built on.

3. you right the legend are weak atm and not benefit the play and game style of the revenant

It’s not just legends, the entire class with the activations, traitlines, and energy cost make it sit basically at the bottom of classes so far.

I understand we are missing one more traitline.

But honestly,
One traitline and one legend are not going to make the other issues magically disappear.

Shadelang.3012:

You can drop the Jallis road almost continuously offering significant stability uptime. Its part of the micro of the legend. Popping hte road hten going to heal or popping the great dwarf is gonna be a big part of it.

On the other hand. Some classes can still interupt through stab.

Or rip stab off.
OR steal it
OR corrupt it
OR load enough CC to bypass it

makagoto.1204:

It’s not like we already have all the info about future skills for the revenant, but for now this is a rather good stun break, which many people simply ignore.

..but it’s not..
It isn’t good at all when you are FORCED to spec into a line for stun breaks.

Also forcing people to swap to break stuns is also a bad design.

Sunshine.5014:

I question the honesty of the people who say Necro/Engi/Ranger are bad in this meta. Bunker MM Necro with constant boon strip can win a decent D/D Ele 80% of time. Condi spirit Ranger can own a lot of classes including Mesmer/Ele. People just don’t dare to try weird/unpopular builds, and then complain that other classes suck. or they try to act like victims to get buffed.

I talked about burning guardians and physical Warrior right after the patch landed. At that time, people still complained about how underpowered guardians/warriors are, because they got stuck in the old mindset. They didn’t try burning guardians or rampage. Now everyone complain about burning guard and rampage.

Quit playing the old style Necro/Ranger, and you will see how strong they are. Use your creativity.

+1
/thread

BlackTruth.6813:

Engi atm is extremely hard to build. Like not even slick shoes is viable because burst is back to where it was during launch.

It should have been that way though, I feel like Engi shouldn’t have gotten Cele and slick shoes in the first place just to be viable. But I feel like Hundred Nades shouldn’t have disappeared either.

TL;DR Playing an Engi nowadays is hard, unless someone already has a sleeper build in mind.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelcThqrYtWw8Kw6FL3FV4HEQZGYD+gBg4B9D5AA-TJhAwAXeAAAOBA/2fQcZAA

This is the build I saw, worked really well for the guys I watched with it.

BlackTruth.6813:

Engi atm is extremely hard to build. Like not even slick shoes is viable because burst is back to where it was during launch.

It should have been that way though, I feel like Engi shouldn’t have gotten Cele and slick shoes in the first place just to be viable. But I feel like Hundred Nades shouldn’t have disappeared either.

TL;DR Playing an Engi nowadays is hard, unless someone already has a sleeper build in mind.

I’ve been seeing a flamethrower build running around, it’s a good decap build so I’ve seen. When I get home I’ll make it and post it. But I do know it uses elixers flamethrower and the mine on critical trait

ReaperJr.5967:

I don’t know where you got the idea that mesmer was underpowered pre patch. Ever heard of Lord helseth? Watched him play?

Most of the people who didn’t play mesmer pre patch were daunted because mesmer had a high skill floor and ceiling. Ding ding ding, what’s new?

Now post patch, bad mesmers who get carried by buff are shouting ‘we are finally viable stop crying and l2p whiners’.

Sorry, you seemed to have missed the conversation helseth had when he admitted to mesmer being a liability for his team.
If a Top tier mesmers admits that he could help his team more playing something else. Then yes, mesmers are underpowered compared to other classes that could fill it’s roaming role, secondly, even in ToL and the world series mesmers were taken on teams MUCH less than say an ele, or thief.

But I guess you have been following the top tier meta for a while so you of course knew that already right?

rpfohr.7048:

I wish I knew a way to check recent match history but I don’t…..when the patch came out I won like 5-10 in a row it was good.

But now I’m on a huge loosing streak, it seems people have adapted.

Whats wrong with the matchup system? Can it account for this recent activity in the wake of balance changes? It’s pretty sad to continue to loose game after game.

Been playing pvp for 3 years…always win a match here and loose a match there. had a 52% w/l ratio but that has completely been blown.

I’d also place some blame on damage….its just too high. Tankier builds can’t keep up.

Have you changed your build? Have you changed your style of play? What class are you playing?

ReaperJr.5967:

The issue with mesmers now is the abnormally high stealth uptime which allows for repeated stealth bursts -> no counterplay. That and the blind on shatter (bug) and a few traits.

In PvP stealth should have a cap. So it isn’t abnormal. Mesmers have always been able to stealth as much as they have. The problem is mesmers along with every burst spec is doing prepatch thief burst. People don’t like it because it’s from stealth, same as thief, so they will whine. Just like they whined about thief.

Honestly I think most of the people whining over mesmers are the ones who had trouble with them prepatch. Because now most of the good players have figured out builds that shrug at mesmers.

DrDivine.5378:

Saiyan.1704:

TL;DR post – Burn Guardian’s already gets hard countered by Necro’s and Eles. Not to mention that we can get outplayed by any class who has an ounce of cleanses and knows half of the Guardian’s mechanics. If a shave is needed, let it be burn duration or Balthazar runes.

People see condi guardian’s deal roughly 30k-50k burn dmg @ 12-16 ticks. Or similar dmg to tick ratio.
The thing is, to reach these high dmg to tick ratios they would have needed a constant 9+ burn stacks on them, at any one time. The higher the stacks, the more crazy the damage/tick ratio will be. People are posting all of these images calling burns OP when they’re allowing 9+ stacks on them to begin with. It can’t be helped if you or your team have 0 condi cleanses… or you keep re-entering Fire Field and self imploding. User error and improper synchronized teams is overpowered, not burn damage.

“Burn guard is countered hard by anyone with a few cleanses as they rely entirely on 1 condition for condi damage.” – The Source

We can out play other classes, but we can also get outplayed just as easily. If it wasn’t for Permeating Wrath, Guardian’s burns wouldn’t even be a thing in TPvP/Competitive play (not that they already are, I just think they could). The fact that we can potentially deliver huge bursts via cleaving is probably the only reason that burn guards can be team viable; compared to other dps classes, on the competitive level. Even then, people may rather depend on power or control builds as they’re more consistent in skirmish scenarios.

Don’t fall for the high dmg, low condi tick pictures. Players do not understand the mechanics of other classes; it was likely their own l2p mistakes that resulted in their demise.

I main mesmer and warrior and while the burning damage can be brutal in tpvp, I don’t think it’s overpowered. Burn guards don’t have much mobility and can be walled by just a few condi cleanses. I feel like the burning damage for guards are very intense because unlike necros and mesmers, guardians do not have access to a variety of conditions. They have burning, and to make that one condition viable, it would have to hit hard.

The problem isn’t really the condition itself.

It’s the ease of which it can be applied and it’s frequency.

It makes it nearly impossible to avoid, and it’s guaranteed damage that will always tick for it’s full amount.

At least with burst you can stack prot and toughness, and you can avoid most burst combo’s through sheer active play.
The same cannot be said about conditions, or guardian burning, since it can be applied from almost everything passively.

That is the thing that I think should be toned down.

But like I have said.
If they nerf damage for one aspect of the game, they need to nerf damage across the board.

Of course that wont happen because anet plays favorites with classes.

Aomine.5012:

phokus.8934:

Sunshine.5014:

phokus.8934:

Mesmer burst is fine. We are already to the point where people need to learn to play.

The only thing I’d change is burning. But only a bit – tone it down (damage? Stacks per class?) And this patch is amazing and what GW2 is all about.

Burst is fine.

Burst from stealth with no counter play is not.

I love the new damage, feel free to increase Mesmer’s sustain damage, but the stealth burst should be nerfed.

Mesmers are the squishiest light class. Their damage from being overt and from stealth is perfectly fine and acceptable. The damage overall with them has increased but their setup of stealth, mirror blade, mind wrack has not.

This post is funny…
You said Mesmer is the squishiest light armor classes, but guess what, the 2 classes you compare to are also 2 of the bulkiest classes in GW2 LOL (Ele = highest sustain, Necro = most hp pool)
But when you compare to all the medium classes, you would see a different picture.

GW2 is kinda funny that all 3 medium armor classes are less tanky and less survivable than 3 light classes LOL.
Balance… Haha…

Bunkerdown engies say hi.

You get 500+ healing every two seconds from spamming things like flamethrower. While still having access to almost permanent stability.

AND BURNING.

which pretty much melts shatter mesmers that decide they don’t need condi-removal in a burn heavy stage of pvp.

Cynz.9437:

the real question is… what does counter mesmers nowdays?

Bunker elixer engi,
Bunker necro
petting zoo necro
Rampage
Burn Guardian
Cele

k…bye..

/15byes