Guild Wars 2

Poor guy probably didn’t expect to have his remark be dissected on the forum, hahahaha.

I think this is uncontroversial (if you disagree, feel free to let us know).

Just get rid of auto upgrades. Keep it free but don’t make it automatic.

After that, people’ll be more invested in keeping the borderlands since they spent time upgrading. We can talk about what else needs to change from there.

Just get rid of automatic upgrade.

Who is with me?!

Right now I’d say Gate of Madness is upbeat. Always felt it was a friendly server and still true (though only one I’ve known).

Having been in a sort of community management? position while big guilds are leaving can be tough so I empathize. WvW is a long game though and your server will bounce back. You shouldn’t let what’s happening now get you down. Over time, new people will arrive.

joneirikb.7506:

Wolfric.9380:

Made a mistake here. EotM´s concept is fine.

I would consider removing borderland concept.
Take the desert map, build a castle in the center and add towers and a third access point.
So make a variant of eternal battleground.
Now we have two diffrent battlegrounds.

+1

For the rest, removing EotM will not bring much players “back” to the WvW maps. They will just go somewhere else to farm, quit, or just do something else.

That’s the thing though. Does basically the Queensdale champ train need its own map that gives WXP as well?

Being on the map feels such a chore. I never thought I’d be so relieved to load Eternal Battlegrounds.

A lot of people in WvW are pretty attached to their servers.

This is great.

I will just add that I think removing the gold cost for upgrades was correct (though making them automatic is not correct). It’s already an investment in time and energy to upgrade without gold costs. Gold costs only were felt by a very small group of players and it was burdensome on them. You could easily sink dozens of gold inside a day by being a very vigilant player and punishing very vigilant players is not what we want to do.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

styx.7294:

WXP links rewards to kills + objectives, the first of which favours higher tiers. The sort of thing it especially encourages you can see on Edge of the Mists.

I still think that WvW was better before WXP.

Ok, I see your point. Yea I just know no matter what you do you are getting slightly better rewards after the WXP (other than scouting which is 0 rewards before and after) but I suppose it does kinda promote playing in a different fashion.

Like, I said, WvW rewards are a tricky business. There’s a lot of different roles and things you can do in WvW and they don’t all pay equally well. It used to be less of a problem before you could make huge amounts in PvE (before basically Crown Pavilion Living Story if I recall correctly). No one really cared until you had to suddenly make ascended gear and achievements started paying.

The game just rewards you better for doing anything else (gold, mastery, skins, legendaries, achievements, titles). WvW’s saving grace is it is fun (when it’s not empty). Of course the most fun map was alpine, hahaha… =(

evilwen.7409:

I know that but “one swallow doesn’t make a summer”

If in my tier I can find people to roam with, a WvW guild, commanders on TS to follow, you can do it too.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

styx.7294:

Sometimes they do things that make things worse (WXP, Edge of the Mists, desert borderland?), sometimes they do things that make things better (tourneys, culling, locked transfers).

Wait you think WXP was bad for WvW? Care to explain your thoughs? Also I was just looking at rewards specifically not the whole of WvW since this is WvW themed thread.

WXP links rewards to kills + objectives, the first of which favours higher tiers. The sort of thing it especially encourages you can see on Edge of the Mists.

I still think that WvW was better before WXP.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

To all they players saying they have done nothing in 3 years, wake up. They added the WXP system which helps a lot for rewards in WvW. Not saying it’s in a good spot but they have done something.

Sometimes they do things that make things worse (WXP, Edge of the Mists, desert borderland?), sometimes they do things that make things better (tourneys, culling, locked transfers).

I think the problem with WvW is that it is the hardest mode to run, I think. ArenaNet has the least control over what sort of experience you’ll have in WvW. PvE you know what people are facing wherever they are, PvP is basically just always 5v5.

As such, I will say that WvW rewards are hard to do. I can appreciate that they are having trouble doing it as well as other modes. You can have half an hour without finding a player, other times you kill a thousand players in an evening and that balance varies between tiers too.

S’why my preference is to “increase rewards” by reducing costs (maybe scale ascended to exotic stats! or lower the costs on food – that shouldn’t affect PvE much). I think giving WvW some unique armour sets or somethin for the achievements would be nice.

Plus so many people play WvW that there are a thousand different ideas about what it should be.

That’s why it is important to think and talk about to muddle our way through this. I think ArenaNet missed the ball on a lot of things when they launched WvW (transfers! Geez, what a headache those are) and this mode has very much just been them trying to figure it out. But that’s alright, a lot of the lessons I’ve learned about WvW are in hindsight.

Nope.

Try building your tier instead of abandoning it.

Jayne.9251:

styx.7294:

No, none of this.

Stacking servers, people fed up with being ignored and lousy service, that’s all responses to incentives. The game rewards people for zerging, it rewards for transferring to higher tiers (at least it now locks them out of full servers). That’s the thing ArenaNet built. We’re all just playing the game as it is.

Oh c’mon now. Have a bit of accountability.

That’s like blaming McDonald’s for gaining weight.

It’s like blaming McDonald’s for having a server that is busy texting their BFF while you’re trying to make an order.

Jayne.9251:

Dawdler.8521:

Zephyra.4709:

Maybe the devs are hiding from the WvW forums due to the intense backlash, verbally abusive, extreme saltiness and nasty, unhelpful, non-constructive feedback players seem to be giving them.

Which would be mostly due to the game-breaking destruction of the gameplay mode we all love and unhelpful, non-constructive silence of developer neglect.

People will always complain about how something isnt perfect according to them, but at least developers should strive to always improve their game overall. WvW is not better now than it was a month ago. Quite the opposite. The new map is broken, the autoupgrades is a failure and the cost for guild upgrades in WvW is absolutely ridiculous.

The problem is, there’s some very vocal regulars (myself included, you too), who ask for changes — in fact, there are some guilds who band together to spam a topic nonstop in order to garner attention to a change/fix/suggestion. Social engineering for change.

Anet implemented some of these suggestions in the past, and then there was an equally loud backlash over the change. There’s a lot of gaming going on sadly.

Some have tried to readdress how they post and tone down the vitriol, I’ve seen it happen, but for each of those folks trying, there’s 10 who are just yelling nonstop.

So my best guess is that they make a change, and then sit back a couple months to see how the change is used/affected — since responding quickly and making changes in year 1 here saw massive reaction. In fact, you know WvWers, any change elicits the same kind of crazed reaction. And for us here, usually one change is forgotten about the minute something else takes its place as the target of rant. ADHD

And given this mode of play has been manipulated by personal agendas in the past — (see guilds spamming one topic nonstop, gaming the server rankings, gaming the population caps, etc …) — they have to err on the more conservative side for responses/reactions now.

Heck, they had to implement changes to stop stacking servers because the players wouldn’t do it themselves (some still don’t want to, lol) — so in effect, Anet has to act like parents.

I suppose they can update this forum in parental mode — and just tell everyone they’re grounded

No, none of this.

Stacking servers, people fed up with being ignored and lousy service, that’s all responses to incentives. The game rewards people for zerging, it rewards for transferring to higher tiers (at least it now locks them out of full servers). That’s the thing ArenaNet built. We’re all just playing the game as it is.

Someone goes to PvE and makes a ton of gold in an hour, progress to legendaries and guild halls and whatever else. Someone goes to WvW, spends 20s in food buffs and then has them run out before they fight another player. There’s someone else in Edge of the Mists flipping objectives for free. Someone in WvW does something hard like fight outmanned for an hour and gets a repair bill. PvP, switch builds and get good at them for free! That’s the game.

The service in the WvW section is pretty awful. It’s always been. We’re not children, we’re adults that recognize the service for what it is. ArenaNet can hide like you think it should or it should get things done. Credit where it is due and only where it is due.

saturn.4810:

Shouldn’t WvW be made more attractive, so that players go there on their own, instead of removing any alternatives?

You are asking something similar to the dungeons nerf, SW nerf etc., just to lure people into more desirable content. Do you think this is a good idea in general?

This is what we have come to. Edge of the Mist is its own mode. They should put it in the ads, “We also have a champ farm map!”. Maybe should gets its own forum section.

butch.8136:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/10256/Guild-Wars-2-Heart-of-Thorns-One-Week-In-with-Colin-Johanson.html

They’re aware and working on it.

That was a nice interview to read, thanks.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

I actually like that you can’t just have one player safely behind a wall besieging another objective with a trebuchet. I think people need to explore the new maps a bit, there are some super strategic spots to put down a trebuchet and defend it with a few arrow carts and some players. I have already tested one that works well, a trebuchet at 50% power can hit the gate on the ‘wind’ keep from the plateau just next to the spawn tower. This plateau has only a few ways on to it, one guarded by the tower (and the ‘weak’ walls), another is a staircase up to the plateau from below, and the third is a narrow bridge with a sure death if you fall. It’s still a easy to defend location but you don’t have the leisure of leaving a player to use the trebuchet while you do other things, you have to actively defend your siege equipment. Given how the map is set up I’m sure there are other locations similar to this one that allow for a group to set up and truly besiege an objective.

I don’t need siege spots. No one’s coming on these maps.

abclemons.7093:

LOL, you guys logged in and thought WVW would be full…. the internet has such funny ppl.

Srsly, everyone is getting <INSERT PVE ACTIVITY HERE>. Maybe you should get with your guildies and do some of that too?

^ArenaNet on WvW every patch ever.

Alpine map is best WvW map.

Don’t make me rant about Mike Duffy! How can a senator be charged with receiving a bribe but no one charged with giving him one?! Huh!? EXPLAIN THAT! IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE

Taxidriver.2043:

styx.7294:

People who have been playing 3-ish years already have the advantage of being better.

haha any noob guild can all reroll guard/war and instantly roll over any pug zerg they run into., how many years u played dont make crap diff in this game. Look at how many bad guilds getting owned left and right before the guard/war meta came out. Now they are the top gvg guild lol what a joke.

Matters for roaming. GvG’s just look like zerg trains to me =P

I have no strong feelings on this but just tell us why.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Shame some people don’t understand the time put into some of these changes and the impact they made on the game mode. Can you not honestly say WvW has improved?

It’s gotten worse in more ways than it got better.

Big ways it got worse:
-WXP (needless power creep, rewards higher tier servers over smaller ones)
-Edge of the Mist (I understand people in tier 1 think it’s fantastic but kitten you tier 1, it ain’t all about you)
-removal of the best WvW map
-achievements stayed broken even after they started giving cash and gems for them
-every other game mode got fancy skins by the truckload
-ascended gear added
-every other game mode got more profitable at a faster rate

Big ways it got better:
-no culling (okay, this was fantastic)
-transfer costs (3 years later something that was obvious to everyone day one)
-able to kick people from party (hey, basic functionality in the game only 18 months after launch!)

Other things:
-tournaments were good but didn’t last long

Best WvW was before ascended gear. Many changes have been making WvW worse. At best, most of the changes have been things you just learn to live with and ignore (like ruins).

Kaiser.9873:

Would it be too much to allow players to purchase temporary bonuses with WvW points?

They could be similar to the run speed, attack, armor, magic find, and karma boosts that you can get through the upgrade packs. I know it would put those who have high ranks at a bit of an advantage over the fresh players, but doesn’t someone that has been playing for 3-ish years deserve to have some kind of advantage? I realize this might take a few dollars out of ANet’s pocket, but I haven’t ever purchased any of these boosts from the black lion store anyway, and I don’t imagine alot of WvWers buy them.

People who have been playing 3-ish years already have the advantage of being better.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Updated and added a few items including commander tag and links to similar threads for sPvP and PvE.

I will give you props for making those lists.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

I don’t think people realize this is the beginning of ‘unique WvW rewards’ that players have been asking for a long time now. I think people just bash everything ArenaNet does on the forums just because. Then they wonder why the Dev’s don’t spend much time reading and replying on the forums. Hopefully they go into more detail about what it is, how to get it, and why they are making it.

I think you’re living in a fantasy land.

There’s a lot of unknowns about anything here.

WvW ArenaNet gets bashed because they have terrible service for WvW players. There’s no way around that. They fumble with the game mode, fail to deliver on promises, and neglect it in a thousand ways (3 years of broken achievements while rest of the game has new achievements rained on them, 3 years to fix server transfer rates, changes keep rewarding upper tiers more than lower tiers, etc.). The very idea of having a server to identify with and fight for has been drastically crippled not only by giving non-server based WvW (Edge of the Mists) but removing servers from PvE and PvP completely. Outside of WvW, I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of players don’t know what server they belong to.

The last words anyone around here remembers from an ArenaNet founder is the implication that ArenaNet doesn’t need to support WvW players much because WvW is just a distraction from other modes of the game. Which is ironic because most people I know feel forced into other game modes for the money and skins they provide (somehow the single weapon skins in your added feature list they added to the game once are not doing it).

“the beginning of ‘unique WvW rewards’ that players have been asking for a long time now” is not something I expect to find reading between the lines on a blog post on a completely separate thing. Unique WvW rewards would have to be able provided competitive income rates to other modes and ideally not come from kills.

I am highly skeptical.

Wow, a stark counting of how small the smallest servers are.

1200 deaths to 18000.

WXP was such an awful idea as is increasing loot per kill. You really get punished for being in a low tier (as if being punished for being in WvW wasn’t bad enough).

Kodiak.3281:

styx.7294:

I don’t think PPK does that. I think the only thing PPK does is feed egos (because we’re always better than the guys we’re fighting and I’m sure if PPK was in place we’d win).

But, egos aside, what if that was the factual scenario happening? Are you saying you shouldn’t let the server that was better and won more of their fights let that be a contributing factor (not the only factor) towards winning?

My point is that I think PvP games that are objective based rather than kill based are more fun. I don’t think that it is necessary to bring kill count into it. Most of the time people who can kill more can use that to take more objectives already if they’re smart about it.

Edit: Really hope the expansion fixes this and the transfer limits recently imposed keep from getting back to this nonsense.

PPK punishes delaying actions. Like a small group breaks off to delay reinforcements to a keep under siege. Suddenly instead of helping you’re feeding points.

The trouble with group PvP games is always finding a reason for people to leave safety to risk their k/d ratio. I don’t think PPK does that. I think the only thing PPK does is feed egos (because we’re always better than the guys we’re fighting and I’m sure if PPK was in place we’d win).

coolcat.4638:

One thing that I think would improve investment is if there was a reason to play wvw. Sure with the new legendary weapons they are trying to make people play more than one gamemode but a lot just to to EoTM to get their badges of Honor. PVP gets finishers and gear, something that actually shows they play it and that they invested time. Dungeons and Fractals and even silverwastes give attainable titles and of course gold and gear. WvW doesn’t really give that. There are no special wvw finishers or gear you can only get in wvw that shows you are a person who mains wvw. Sure there are your wvw ranks but none of your allies can even see that title, just your “enemies”. I think in order for people who don’t main wvw to get more invested, they would have to be able to get something from it that is worth their time. People grind pvp for new finshers and gear, people run dungeons and fractals and silverwastes for titles and loot. WvW doesn’t even have many attainable titles(though rumor has that’s changing), the loot that is obtained is not especially valuable and you lose more gold than making it. Until there is actually something a player can benefit from other than playing the game I think the investment level will stay low.

WvW offers nothing other than fun (but costs gold to play for gear, consumables, repairs, etc.). No achievements, no competitive gold income, no titles, it is no way to gear a character, comes with the ugliest weapon set, gives no progress to legendaries. The expansion blog posts are a lil’ depressing ’cause raids and yet more masteries are just gonna be more reasons for people to not play WvW.

Unlike any other game mode, getting people to show up regularly is such a big deal in WvW. For PvP, if there are 10 people playing you got a full room. For PvE, you just switch to another instance. For WvW, you show up in EB with an enemy upgraded keep in front of your spawn.

Thinking about WvW is so infuriating!

My preference is still to get rid of WvW ranks. They don’t add anything worthwhile. Was better before them. old man grumble grumble

WvW for most romantic Guild Wars 2 mode. Listening to stories about why people WvW really pulls on the heartstrings.

ArchonWing.9480:

It’s almost like WvW isn’t Gw2 and is some kind of mini-game.

Well, that should change I think.

Even the worlds we fight for don’t exist outside of WvW. Man, does WvW even exist?

Am tripping here, man!

Nightshade.2570:

kroter.1326:

Some whining from a relatively new player here.

You get the best exo gear (salvageable, can be put in MF) in a gamemode where you don’t need any gear. You get dungeon tokens and charges and tomes and much more. You get it all even for losing. I know people who play PvP exclusively and they just have no use for all this loot, they don’t know what to do with it. And it’s hugely advertised by PvP weekend buffs.
Played PvP for a weekend, got lots and lots of exos I don’t need, threw them all in MF – got a precursor.

But… You get crap, crap and more crap in a gamemode where you actually need the best gear possible. And if you want to command you need gold for sieges. Gear that you can get for WvW badges is also requires gold. And it’s non-salvageable. And can’t be put in MF. Meaning when (if) you get to ascended by playing WvW you would have to just throw away your old gear and pricey runes in it.
Played WvW for 270 ranks and the most valuable thing was a BL key. Got myself a mini skritt from it.

What I want to say is… I like skritts.

I like Bats.

In any case I understand what your saying and I really hope they can build a more stable reward system for everyone that plays WvW not just those that PVD or field fight.

I want the new players to come and stay so we get some new blood into WvW. So it can be the dynamic battle that I know it can be.

The last bit is the thing. The game is constantly pulling you out of WvW. You want titles? Get out of WvW. You want fancy gear? Get out of WvW. You want gold? Get out of WvW. You want legendary weapons? Get out of WvW. You want legendary armour coming? Get out of WvW. You want a new character? Get out of WvW. You wanna switch builds? Get out of WvW. You want to get some consumables to play WvW? Get out of WvW!

This is something that’s really evident when you’re a WvW guild on a small server trying to recruit new blood.

kroter.1326:

Some whining from a relatively new player here.

You get the best exo gear (salvageable, can be put in MF) in a gamemode where you don’t need any gear. You get dungeon tokens and charges and tomes and much more. You get it all even for losing. I know people who play PvP exclusively and they just have no use for all this loot, they don’t know what to do with it. And it’s hugely advertised by PvP weekend buffs.
Played PvP for a weekend, got lots and lots of exos I don’t need, threw them all in MF – got a precursor.

But… You get crap, crap and more crap in a gamemode where you actually need the best gear possible. And if you want to command you need gold for sieges. Gear that you can get for WvW badges is also requires gold. And it’s non-salvageable. And can’t be put in MF. Meaning when (if) you get to ascended by playing WvW you would have to just throw away your old gear and pricey runes in it.
Played WvW for 270 ranks and the most valuable thing was a BL key. Got myself a mini skritt from it.

What I want to say is… I like skritts.

It’d make me flip a table if I hadn’t been flipping tables over it for years now.

My preference is to take gear and food out of the equation like sPvP! We ain’t PvE!

I like the last point.

If you have a guild that has people scattered across servers they weren’t interested in WvW’ing together to begin with.

You can have many guilds so you can find one that is interested in WvW’ing together. Every server has dedicated WvW guilds.

It’s a tiny fraction of the population that is in your shoes, I think, and I wouldn’t want to change the system around for that.

morrolan.9608:

styx.7294:

morrolan.9608:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

Tournaments would be pointless right now, artificial increases to populations that are inactive right now, most of us are waiting and hoping HoT will be different.

Tournament were always pointless given the disparity in populations.

They upped server participation. WvW is very much constant demand on time. Tournament seasons gave it a sort of ebb and flow.

Upped participation during the season then resulted in more leaving the game afterward due to the toxicity of it.

Honestly, I was only around for the first one but that wasn’t my experience at all. It was quite positive on my server all around. Start of tournament basically doubled our numbers and there was still a boost for a while after the tournament.

morrolan.9608:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

Tournaments would be pointless right now, artificial increases to populations that are inactive right now, most of us are waiting and hoping HoT will be different.

Tournament were always pointless given the disparity in populations.

They upped server participation. WvW is very much constant demand on time. Tournament seasons gave it a sort of ebb and flow.

Dunno what that’s worth but I just wanted to argue the other side.

Since the changes to how transfers worked I think the transfer problem isn’t that bad.

Population on all servers will get a boost once the expansion comes out and hopefully there’ll be less of a drain.

Reducing the number of servers though isn’t inherently a bad idea. The server numbers were set because that’s how many people you needed to host the whole Guild Wars 2 population but that don’t mean anything since megaserver.

Though I would like to point out WvW on lower population servers is still fun and even more fun to a great many people. People who think low population servers don’t know how to play or are not fun just have their head up their kitten .

Diku.2546:

Better Suggestion:

Server Loyalty Points:

Every 500 WvW Ranks earned unlocks a Unique WvW Bonus Chest Reward. Warning – Server Loyalty Points reset to Zero if account changes WvW World.

Rewards Edge of the Mist the most and people who zerg.

I don’t think WvW ranks were a good addition to the game.

Diku.2546:

@styx

It would be nice to be rewarded when you stay on a dead server fighting & earning your WvW Ranks on this server for a year.

Most players wouldn’t stay on a dead server to level up their WvW Rank.

It’s not greed…because most normal players leave when faced with fighting on a dead WvW server.

If you’ve ever tried to increase your WvW Rank on a dead server…you’d understand.

Try doing it for a year…and it’s pure torture.

Having an annual reward sure would be nice.

Or, better yet…try staying on a WvW server that is constantly dominated by a T1 server when they drop to T2.

I’ve played in the absolute lowest tiers of NA. I dunno if there are any dead servers, people still show. New people still show up as well.

I’ve often contemplated maybe having a reward for being on lower tiers. There is an actual measurable reward that comes with being on higher tiers (more kills leads to more achievements, more drops, as well as more people to share expenses with etc.). It would be a hard sell.

On the other hand, WvW is different and for a lot of people better on lower tiers as well. It just doesn’t make you as rich.

Hammerguard.9834:

Tier 1 IS where the players who care most about WvW are going to be and there’s nothing wrong with other players who aren’t in Tier 1 wanting to be apart of that.

Stop trying to make yourself feel better about being on the server you’re on.

No, transferring to tier 1 is what people who don’t care about WvW do.

I dunno what you think hard WvW is. Is it being part of a zerg?

Conaywea.5062:

styx.7294:

Extreme.8350:

You know why players don’t roam? and there is plenty capable ones
Its because its literally the least reward thing in the game to do

Basically, this.

if you want to waste your time (play gw2) for rewards , then you can get a/another job , you will get better rewards

This is just about paying for food, ascended gear for my builds, upgrades, repairs, other costs that come with playing the game. You think I shouldn’t be able to afford that ingame?

Extreme.8350:

You know why players don’t roam? and there is plenty capable ones
Its because its literally the least reward thing in the game to do

Basically, this.

The game really needs a “I’m going to click this and I’d like it to count as x clicks” or sort of thing. Not just for siege making but lots of other things like shops and crafting.

I would be okay with food being gone.

I’d adapt builds and it would cost me less money to play WvW (the other way to make WvW more profitable).

Your server’s not dead. If you’re feeling alone, join a guild.