Guild Wars 2

i dont want asuras with boobs however i do wish female asuras had some actual female armor and not just gemstore female exclusive, same goes for charr

( could also go for crossdressing male asuras too) >.>

Snoopy Shannon.5123:

Yeah I never understood the hate for thieves. I’ve come across some crazy good thieves, but mostly not so good.

thief is hated based on its design and the initiative system

either fulldps kitten that melts

or full dpstard that pokes and runs away when they almost get two shot

or smart poker that runs back and forth waiting for the enemy to blow their defenses then kill them or simply keeps pressure on them disrupting them

or point cappers who do nothing but shadowstep from point to point and never engage combat

then theres the “pros”:

the number 3 and condi evade daggers condi spammer

the staff 5 and vault burst evade spammer

the noob: AKA heartseeker spammer

the classical dagger pistol

so fighting against a thief most of the time seems like they are just being cheap

maybe slot for elixir S as the last utility and change your gear for maximum dps to Viper’s for pve and raids , if im not mistaken theres a pve sigil that gives stacking armor per kill so couple that with whatever if you aint feeling like goin full dps otherwise keep corruption

and engi condi dps is mainly burn so balthazar is basically a must have as runes

want to nerf engi and scrapper that badly ? alrite
get rid of warrior’s berserk burst skills
get rid of ranger’s scaleback pet, remove healing,daze, and root spam from druid ,also nerf ranger’s 20s duration 60s cd root elite
nerf mesmer blurr and distortion and get rid of alacrity and wells
get rid of boon corrupt on necro auto , lower mark and well radiuses to 120, increase cooldowns and no longer unblockable , remove the Rise shout
get rid of all of ele’s support effects on shouts , nerf ele condi cleanse and boon access
nerf thief damage by 40%, get rid of thief’s spammable teleports and shadowsteps and blinds
get rid of some of revenant’s blocks (particularly the sword evade) and make herald buff skills have higher costs
remove unblockable from DH’s spear of justice, make all traps blockable, remove boons from traps, increase bow’s 2 skill cd to 12s and lower its damage by 20%

meh i ve made and deleted about 14 engineers myself of every race and gender

larocca.8391:

Yashuoa.9527:

larocca.8391:

Watching a fotm scrapper tank every DH trap and theif burst while comboing off the other scrapper nearby to have insane leap heals and x2 turrets and x2 elixir mist, couldnt kill one at all.

All while having enough cc and damage to lockdown the DH and thief with one slick shoes

How is this even close to ok, he dipped to 1/3 health from that burst and from the dmg outout and lack of dodge rolls i assume he grabbed the marauder scrapper build from metabattle to fotm for a while.

Sounds like the dh, thief and other scrapper (lets call that one scrapper B ) were not very good if they couldnt blow up in 3v1 the enemy scrapper (lets call that one scrapper A).

Obivoulsy the dh alone or scrapper B alone, could give scrapper A enough trouble to win a fight 1 on 1.

When facing dh +scrapper B +thief in 3v1, obviously the other scrapper A has no chance.
There is even another scrapper, scrapper B, that he faces for goodness sake and a dh and thief on top.
If the 3 of them cant take more than 1/3 of the health away, than they were obviously not playing very well.

Only the heal turret resets btw on a 120min internal cd.
Not regenerative mist.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Automated_Medical_Response

Btw, many scrappers run with a toughness amulet now, called Paladin amulet, instead of Marauder.

As explained in this thread a few times, you can prevent the leap heal. In 1on1 and especially in 3v3 with cc and killing the turret or knockback on overcharge.
Just as other tactics that can help vs scrappers.

Also people explaining a view that scrappers might need a playstyle shift to a bit more team support and a bit less 1 on 1 power. Rather than blindly nerfing.

What use are examples of a scrapper+dh+thief, unable to take more than 1/3 away of another scrapper his hp?
It does not point out that scrapper is not ok.
It points out that the 3 enemies were not very good if they cant take out a scrapper, while even having one on their own team.

I explained a bit poorly, it was a 2v2, thief and DH vs x2 scrappers.
Focused 1 scrapper to avoid flailing about, hit him with traps and thief burst yet he recovered like it was nothing.

Although i didnt know people were shifting towards Paladins amu.

Still, having a -20% condi dmg trait with superspeed regen, leap heals and regen with that dmg output is incredible.

Is there a trait or gyro that eats stuns and dazes? Played one on my warr and it was immune without stability to all my cc.

try studying the professions you fight against before asking for nerf
the -20% condi trait is a Grandmaster, the super speed trait requires another grandmaster that makes gyros create lightning super speed fields on death wich answers your third question this said trait makes gyros give engi 1 stack stability for 6 seconds

your problem seems to be paladin ammulet and not scrapper itself

the problem here is all of you point out an instance you ran a bad build and got beaten and use that to generalize all scrappers , any profession that runs berserk/marauder will slap tons of damage on you any profession that runs paladin will dish out somewhat high damage and have some sustain against power skills , this is not a scrapper problem

whirl gyro is useless , might be interesting if the new supposedly datamined whirl finisher sigil works with it

gyros as a whole do not have proper sustain they should work on a fuel system as if they were signets except maybe for stealth gyro maybe

Conditions- as powerful as condi engi is condi engi’s damage comes mostly from burning and confusion so anyone who knows this will save their cleanses for when they get burn stacked and cleanse shutting down 80-90% of condi damage because engineer despite having many bleed skills and traits they all are bad shrapnel needs its bleeding duration cut and proc chance raised, the firearms minor adept needs its bleeding duration raised by 2 seconds pistol and elixir gun’s bleeds need their bleeding durations raised ,poison dart volley and elixir gun’s fumigate need longer poison durations as well, pistol’s number 5 glue shot needs a 25% cd reduction and its crippling pulses to apply 2s cripple instead of 1 , static shot needs its blind replaced with daze as it was during launch , raise poison dart volley’s scaling to 1.2

actually i noticed what the problem is Engineer’s skills were not updated for the new conditions system non of the skills are designed with condition stacking they all have low durations because they are still under the mentality that they stack duration instead of intensity

shield needs a 30% cd reduction

turrets need a Complete overhaul Even if we gave them ranged placement,range and regen and sustain they no longer offer anything worthwhile and some arent even optimized for the new patch for example flame turret still applies a 2-3 second single burn even fully traited for condi this turret is useless same goes for net turret after the double nerf both cd increase + cc duration reduction

gadgets need a bit of an upgrade mines are our only boon strip give them wider activation and blast radius , get rid of gadgeteer trait and lower cd on some gadgets and upgrade some of them maybe give shrapnel 15% chance to boon strip too

i think our skills should be reworked before even having our traits touched

my suggestion would be to shave its duration to 8s and increase the proc chance to 25-33%

it needs 25-33% chance overall actually

bleeding as a condition has the lowest damage it only becomes a threat when able to stack heaps of it and unfortunetly that isnt all that much of a reliable thing right now, hence why most “condi” engies run pure burning

welp our lord and savior Colin is leaving, all hope is lost .

Novuake.2691:

Yeah, you heard me. Even though I find it super hard to admit. WIhtout them, druids, DH and eles would be running rampant and we would have a bunker meta again.

Druids are the only thing keeping them under control. This probably goes for scrappers too. Although scrappers can outkite them and win the duels in the long run.

yeah but what about 3 necro 2 cleric heal/boon spam ele teams?

fact is most thief players are used to one trick pony shots for example i see a lot spamming staff 5 and Bounding Vault evade and as soon i see that i know they just blew 3-5 evades and whack em madly

the only way to cheat in stronghold is with mega heals and boon ele that keep minions and lords fully healed and buffed and immortal

i had a necro chase me calling hacks because i wasnt dieing to his condi spam While i was swimming on Tybalt’s Resistance boon

Cynz.9437:

Either remove it or give it 2 min CD. Stop gold spooning engis and revs. People who wanted to buy HoT already bought xpac, no need for moronic imbalance for the sake of sales anymore.

so you’re telling us you cant evade and runaway for 5-6 seconds without stealth? what kind of pathetic player are you ?

you’re gonna love trying to run away from a ranger with their 2000 range reveal that also gives their pets super speed and 40% damage

Rolisteel.1375:

I bet most of you that complain don’t play necro or play it in low divisions. Get atleast to ruby then we can come back to this thread.

i am ruby 4 and i do play necro unfortunetly i only play necro because its a free win when i do

necro was wayy too easy condi spam access

traited minions take boon and apply to enemies with 2 skills necro can summon 10 minions one of them that i know of is unblockable

then there’s Unblockable marks and wells and possibly corruptions
but those also cleanse and buff themselves and allies

ontop of condi transfer necro also has two all condi clear skills

and thanks to shambling horros+ shroud necro is tanky even while running Viper’s

this is all flawed to begin with
faker elitists cry for harder rewards but when the going gets tought what do they do?

immedietly roll necromancer or druid or revenant to faceroll players without skill

i noticed this bug as well and the only way for me to break out was to use a leap skill

this game’s as good as dead if anet’s next balance patch doesnt involve toning down the condi meta or at least removing amulets like Vipers and mercenary

seriously as it is 2 revenants and 2 necros is the most absurd team compositions you can bump into you’re as good as handing over the pip and alt F4 ing

Silv.9207:

Rezzet.3614:

unblockable marks and wells+ Snap Cast = so much skill
heck even without snap cast they are all big aoe just sit on point dumping conditions and boon corruption

If you look there’s only 1 class that actually play full melee (engi scrapper), all the others play ranged or have a really good ranged option. Even the thief with the sinister have the chance to hit you really hard you with the SB or simply step in and out from your marks with the trick that clean conditions. or dodging your marks all at once.

If you can kill an enemy simply spamming marck and wells under your feets you’re shure that is a really bad player that don’t know what he’s doing.

Unblockable don’t mean OP. There’s other classes that have unblockable skils (revenant use a trait to makesome of his attacks unblockable, for example).

Have you ever seen a warrior or a necro that use his skill to make attacks unblockable?
if is so much strong on a weak utility weapon like the necro staff, why don’t you use it on all your skills with a simple utility?

That’s a troll post of a bad player, nothing more.

unblockable becomes OP when you got up to 7-9 unblockable skills specially with short cooldowns

and the couple that with th insane sustain necro gets from deathshroud wih is also on a short cooldown

as well as the Rise Unblockable shout that gives 1 minion per enemy player and minion near wich reduces damage by 50% and coupled with traits also takes condies from necros and applies to enemies and couple that wich lich form slapping up 5 more minions

and theres the problem tons of passive offense and defense while having top dps

they need to remove viper and mercenary amulet

if a player regardless of profession wants to run condi spam then have them have to focus one diferent stats for specific builds if they want condi bunker run wanderer if they want power run berserk or marauder if they want hybrid run sinister

chill isnt game breaking because it does damage but because reaper can keep chill on enemies about 70-80% of the game

from an enemy’s point of view thats almost a whole game with 66% speed reduction wich stacks with cripple and slow and 66% cooldown increase on all skills

Flumek.9043:

1) rev and reaper are strongest classes atm. Rev is stronger and too strong since theres way less counter than against necros. A newbie example is that each pro league team stacks 2+ revenants, but none is willing to protect more than 1 reaper.

2) scraper and druid are weaker than above, but way above average. It is their tanking capabilities that makes them almost equally valuable in conquest.

3) any of the above classes can overrun a random pug of random skill levels. It is normal to lose a soloq match against 3 reaper, or scrapper or whatever on enemy team….it is not normal to lose against 3 thieves those classes are just good atm

---

4) ok general stuff aside lets talk necro
-minions
A popular reaper shout spawns minion that absorb direct dmg from necro. U can ignore the minions they do nothing, and if they dont hit you, they wont absord dmg for their master. Any power or condi build can use this one
Full minions
If its all different types then hes actual minionmaster. Crazy 1v1 but weaker in teamfights. Let him stay afk on node, sneaky decap or outrotate if he moves, or get enough aoes in teamfights to wipe minions. Dont die to explosions
-full heal
Normaly necros cant heal in shroud. A full heal is 99% an ally ele healing them once they exit shroud.
With blighters boon or unholy sanct. U can heal, but it will around 5k max in normal cases. Best counter to just kite the melee shroud still applies

Tldr
Yes necro strong, imo its 2nd overall and just under OP radar. I wouldnt mind shaving down rev scrap reaper and druid. There are counters to stacking necros like any other stack

you forgot that minions do no direct damage but traited those 10 minions running around with the reaper Each stack conditions on foes as well as take them from necro
so repears with minion swarm are imune to condi , take 50% less damage and gain increased condition spam as well as target clutter because of a little swarm of rats you can accidentally select over and over

i prefer medi gyro because i can use it for rush attacks with teams thanks to the aoe protection and better with the bulwark reflect and damage reduction

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kittencrapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

the question was wich kit alone was better
so by that logic dh wins simply by having weapon swap lol
and hammer alone doesnt have stability thus the #5 pull hard ccs and keeps enemy inside lol hence how it counters the entire weapon set

now had traits and utilities been included then yeah sure longbow alone is a joke

kitten? if you compare JUST the weapons hammer is better, if you compare the whole classes scrapper is better too
in what sense is a cc that is totally telegraphed and aviodable by just walking away, you have like 2-3 sec to just take to steps left, you act like you are instantly stunned??
define “KIT” there are no kits in this game
so what if Guard has weaponswap, you have gadgets and the toolbelt which replaced weapon swap, your arguments have no valid point and just come close to trolling, with the difference that trolls are smarter about it

well the argument was in weapon skills alone , engineer kits are utilities and only 2 are worthwhile for scrapper

but since you brought up skills to the equation scrapper only has one skill to trigger dh traps without getting affected before engaging DH and that is Elixir S

Stability and Shields are rendered useless versus DH because

each trap dazes on activation so that is an easy 5 stability stacks removed on trigger
longbow has a 10s cd knockback
spear of justice is an unblockable pull
some traps are indeed unblockable to thats a daze that will break through shields

and because that isnt cheap enough traps give 10s fury on 20s cd
and dragon’s maw gives instand 10 might stack so just by placing two traps guard gains 80% theorical damage

and lets mention the fact traps enter cooldown when Placed rather than on activation wich brings up the potential for traps to strip up to 10 stability stacks on whatever fool charges on a guard that was sitting in a point for a while

again not a valid argument

1st you can use your toolbar shield to get in and out of traps
2. draps only daze when you have it traited, which only full trapper have, when playing full trapper it’s a gg as soon as you double dodge rolled the traps, wow that was hard hu?
3. knockback only when traited and melee range
4. spear of justice is strong yes, but can also be ealsy dodged, same as engi pull
5. ONE trap is unblockable, the trap that dmg when walking through the outer rim
6. as i said full trapper is patheticly easy to beat hence you don’t see a lot of them, since they miss sustain and utility
7. yes stacking traps on a point is cheap, but if you see a guard on a point, how dumb must you be to just walk into it?
YOU KNOW for a fact that there is a 90% chance that there are traps there, if you don’t know how to counter them (cough 2 dodges rolls, elixer s, shieldblock cough) just don’t engage
DH is strong against low lv players, especially full trappers, as soon as you hit mid to high tier they are gone because it’s too easy to counter and lb become useless with the countless reflects flying around

as i said no valid arguments just a l2p issue, coming from someone who is playing the classes counter

no offense

and you forget some traps are Unblockable
and that DH has an Unblockable pull with 1200 range to pull players into traps
so the only real counter is Elixir S wich has been working like a kitten charm for me
in this current meta Blocks are useless so i ve yet to see a single crapper run tool kit
saw only one and he wasnt successful at anything but missing his magnet pull

another fun fact Unblockable skills pierce Reflects

traps give aegis,protection,fury and 10 might stacks you can have blocks with a sword and shield

hammer scrapper only has melee skills maybe yoou shouldnt sit on one place if your target breaks through your traps

either ways its all irrelevant

scrapper cannot be nerfed until conditions get nerfed all around
and then druid gets their sustain nerfed
and probably remove bunker condi amulets and hybrid power+condi amulets
if yoou wanna build condi melter give up power for it

DGraves.3720:

Obviously this is your opinion so I won’t correct you when you’re wrong. But seriously, what do you think?

bunker scrapper with elixirs.

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kittencrapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

the question was wich kit alone was better
so by that logic dh wins simply by having weapon swap lol
and hammer alone doesnt have stability thus the #5 pull hard ccs and keeps enemy inside lol hence how it counters the entire weapon set

now had traits and utilities been included then yeah sure longbow alone is a joke

kitten? if you compare JUST the weapons hammer is better, if you compare the whole classes scrapper is better too
in what sense is a cc that is totally telegraphed and aviodable by just walking away, you have like 2-3 sec to just take to steps left, you act like you are instantly stunned??
define “KIT” there are no kits in this game
so what if Guard has weaponswap, you have gadgets and the toolbelt which replaced weapon swap, your arguments have no valid point and just come close to trolling, with the difference that trolls are smarter about it

well the argument was in weapon skills alone , engineer kits are utilities and only 2 are worthwhile for scrapper

but since you brought up skills to the equation scrapper only has one skill to trigger dh traps without getting affected before engaging DH and that is Elixir S

Stability and Shields are rendered useless versus DH because

each trap dazes on activation so that is an easy 5 stability stacks removed on trigger
longbow has a 10s cd knockback
spear of justice is an unblockable pull
some traps are indeed unblockable to thats a daze that will break through shields

and because that isnt cheap enough traps give 10s fury on 20s cd
and dragon’s maw gives instand 10 might stack so just by placing two traps guard gains 80% theorical damage

and lets mention the fact traps enter cooldown when Placed rather than on activation wich brings up the potential for traps to strip up to 10 stability stacks on whatever fool charges on a guard that was sitting in a point for a while

Manuhell.2759:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post6000331

While i do agree that stats are different between the modes, that wasn’t the point of the post.
I posted it because it gives us a way to compare those several skills. And given that changing stats would proportionally impact them the same way, while we wouldn’t know their exact dps, we can still know their relative strength.

Specifically, if people post about the hammer having “3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload” and we end up with half of them being worse than several other skills like poison grenade or throw wrench maybe there is something wrong with the perception of people about the hammer to begin with.

Edited due of some wrong comparisons.

well for that to work you would need a spread sheet of all professions’s skill damage with max buffs as well its easy to call something op when youo look up its damage only with berserker stats 25 might and 25 bloodlust and write it as default damage
that is how the raid damage chart was made and why it is innacurate for pvp purposes

Manuhell.2759:

Guess some people are forgetting that we’ve got a rather detailed analysis about skill damages just some days ago in this same forum.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/219594/Power_Scrapper.png
“3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload”, right?

do elaborate on how the analysis was performed and what data was obtained

because that is far innacurate for single skill damage

if engineer really had so many skills doing 20-30k+ damage pvp wouldnt even exist

also another Huge over sight you had was that this chart you used was a RAID DPS CHART

pve stats =/= pvp stats

Key
Name of the Skill (Whole Chain)
The name of the skill used. If there is a chain, like hammer auto attack, the whole chain is used for further calculations.
Baseline Value
The tooltip power damage. Nothing you should worry about.
Power Damage
The full buffed average power damage of a skill.
Condition Damage
The full buffed average condition damage of a skill.
Total Damage
The full buffed average total damage of a skill.
Cast Time
The time you require after you start casting a skill, until you can continue with casting other skills. Includes aftercast.
<- incl. Quickness
The Cast Time while under the effect of Quickness. Quickness is a boon, granted by the Mesmer, which reduces your cast time by 33% and is considered 100% uptime.
(Note: movement skills are not affected by quickness. The cast time is marked red for those skills in the spreadsheet.
Cooldown
The time you require after you finished casting the skill. The total Cooldown after you start casting a skill would be this value + the Cast Time value.
<- incl. Alacrity
The Cooldown while under the effect of Alacrity. Alacrity is a buff, granted by the Chronomancer, which reduces your cool down by 25% and is considered 100% uptime.
DpS
The damage a skill deals over time all on it’s own. This value is basicly the Total Damage divided by the total Cooldown (means, including Cast Time).
<- incl. Quick. & Al.
The DpS a skill deals, while under the effect of Quickness and Alacrity.
Chrono Boost
The % damage boost a skill will have, if your Chronomancer grants you 100% Quickness and Alacrity.
DpiSCT
It stands for Damage per invested Second Cast Time and determines the priority of a skill or how strong a skill really is. This value shows how much damage you’d be dealing if the skill would have no cool down. It is often mixed up with DpS / Damage per Second which is a completly different value.
For example, a skill which deals 5’000 damage and has 0.5s cast time has a DpiSCT of 10’000. If you have another skill with 20’000 damage output, but a cast time of 4s, it’d have a DpiSCT of 5’000 and makes it a worse skill to use. You’d be dealing more DpS with the first one (as long as we ignore the Cooldown / as long as you use other skills too, at least auto attacks, ofc).
<- incl. Quickness
The DpiSCT including Quickness shows the true strength of a skill. This is the most important value of them all and shows how mighty a skill really is. You should always priorize your skills according to this to achieve max DpS.

you overlooked that bit of data wich explains at the numbers are fully buffed skills and such to begin with

the skills real damage is the Baseline Value damage

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kittencrapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

the question was wich kit alone was better
so by that logic dh wins simply by having weapon swap lol
and hammer alone doesnt have stability thus the #5 pull hard ccs and keeps enemy inside lol hence how it counters the entire weapon set

now had traits and utilities been included then yeah sure longbow alone is a joke

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

Miko.4158:

The complaints here seem to revolve around overpowered and spammable.
various screens hots show gunflame is not the highest damage (although it is very high) so spammable? I don’t see how burst skills are comparable to ordinary skills, particularly COR.
Warriors are taking rifle, berserk and strength will all the adrenaline gains, berserk gains& recharges for this build, which is all basically all traits + zerk gear to get these figures.
By nerfing Gunflame you are saying warriors can’t attain the same level of damage as other professions? I use a tanky soldier build and get around 8K which does not seem unreasonable although I wouldn’t argue with a 10-15% reduction -as long as it was done by looking at all the skills that can hit over 15K.
The problem in Wvw I believe is how it is used. As a frontliner I’m at the front and the minute I push berserk/lightbulb I’m subject to ALOT of range+freeze and the favorite ‘pull’ to the middle of their zerg where I’m unceremoniously beaten to death with hate. Seems fair, eternal champion duration could lose 15% if people want more of this. But Wvw adjusts to new skills after the initial outrage… If people are sneaking about in the middle of the zerg I think the range should get shortened, but it seems somewhat invasive of gameplay and needs to be looked at with all ranged skills that can hit over 15K. As well as cloaked skills that hit for this damage either single or chains. Warrior is very limited on pvp so I don’t think the cooldown should adj this is WVW specific.

if you’re running berserk and your build is around rifle you are Not in the front lines
if you cant get kills with your rifle 3 skill wich hits almost as insanely then really it is yoou who needs to l2p

kill shot as it was always already considered too strong
gunflame goes beyond

heres the summary
Cons
20% less damage than T3 Kill shot

Pros
1500 range
2 seconds cooldown
less than half a second cast time
can be cast while moving
Burns
Dazes
Pierces
+100% projectile speed
180 radius

couple that with signet of might active and you ve got yourself at least 2 instant unblockable beams of death

its too much for one skill

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Engie is part of the PvP meta for more than 2 years non-stop and was occasionally so strong, that some pro teams were using 2 of them. Calling this pathetic and putting current scrapper on the same stage as guard or warrior when it comes to the need of nerfes, makes it impossible to take you serios.

really now? can we get some evidence on pro teams not on ly having 2 engineers but owning their game victories to said engineers now ?

if i recall anything what teams usually had was 2 eles

hell if anything i think 2 engineers are all the engineers that play in pro pvp and the only one i ve seen has been five gauge lol , but i do agree putting scrapper in the same stage as dragon hunter is absurd scrapper needs some serious buffing to catch up to DH cheapness

KingClash.3186:

Blude.6812:

Remove AP cap and retire the leaderboards. That would be the best way to handle it.

+1 Clean and simple.

this pretty much

traps go on cd wen placed not activated
longbow knockback 10s cd
unblockable spear of justice pull
traps apply big boons on short cds fury,protection 10 might stacks
traps daze

basically asides from things like Elixir S and Mist form you got no counter if you landed in a trap

traps alone yank up to 5 stability stacks on activation

unblockable marks and wells+ Snap Cast = so much skill
heck even without snap cast they are all big aoe just sit on point dumping conditions and boon corruption

Warlock.7136:

tried to get a gear response on a different thread. no responses. so here it is rephrased does a reaper chill minion bomber get more damage out of condition damage or power damage?

condi or both

Viper
or
Mercenary amulet+50% crit chance on shroud trait

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

Your arguments both dont hold. Scrapper doesnt have the burst Daredevil has, nor the mobility. Besides Daredevils are more about avoiding dmg, rather than blocking or healing it back up.
As weird as it sounds, Daredevils dont have less range than Scrapper.

Anyway, Scrapper needs a playstyle change to be a bit less good in 1 on 1 and a bit better in support.

Currently Scrapper is more allround with smaller weaknesses spread out, rather than really specialised in one area, with a big weakness in another.
They are build well for 1 on 1, which raises complaints.
Becoming more supportive and less powerful in 1 on 1 could fix issues, without nerfing them into useless.

scrapper might not have a DrD burst yes, but what good is a burst if the enemy player has 1 to 2 get out of jail free cards with invuln skills/autoproc invuln traits,
consistant high dmg with good tankyness if much more viable in 1v1 or outnumbered situations than 1 to max 3 good burst if you just end up doing 0 dmg due to silly autoprocs
and yes DrD has less range, unless you consider wasting all your gap closers at once for range, which still isn’t ranged dmg, it’s a gap closer
Hammer simply does too much dmg for what it does, there are enough engi players out there that aggree that the hammer makes every other set obsolete
I also like playing hammer, for the playstyle, but i feel cheesy as f doing so cause it’s simply easy mode on the scrapper, the dmg on most skills is very high yet the CD are really low, meaning you mostly don’t even need much more than the hammer and the heal turret to win a match
nerfing it’s dmg down and/or increasing CD would make rifle more viable as power set and open up more diversity amongs builds

daredevil is as easy as running staff+ bounding dodger that way you yank up to 3k hp By Dodging per dodge daredevil’s high mobility alone is a counter against hammer scrappers as long you have even one stun break they wont lock you down unless you are simply bad

thief does have cleanses if you dont know them that isnt scrapper’s fault
thief has a 15 second cooldown block and 2 seconds absolute invuln 2s evade > invuln as it ignores both direct and condi skills .

your question goes backwards to you what good is a defensive profession and build if it can be burst instantly like any other glass build?

tattyana.2356:

I don’t get it I’m loving Hot I like the mastery system the new maps and new legendaries we can craft. The only thing I didn’t like was raids being hard core only ,world of warcraft realized they were making content that only a fraction of there player base was seeing and implemented lfr (looking for raid). Minus that little hic up I’m enjoying Hot and for what we get for no sub fee I don’t understand all the negativity ……….. Anet your doing fine keep up the good work just hope you guys at some point make raids a little more accessible to the masses.

the main reasons should be :
Core Dungeon rewards got nerfed
Fractal rewards got greatly nerfed and locked behind HoT Masteries
Elite Specializations made Core Specializations mostly obsolete
and Meta Event having Massive global timers and in the case of dragon stand having two hours timer and then only 15 minutes to explore the map only if you successfully beat the Meta event

maybe the fact anet focused on gem store content as soon expansion came out while the expansion itself doesnt have much content

BrotherBelial.3094:

Play some Sega classics like Golden Axe, Alterbeast, and Streets of Rage 1/2. Till we get some new content.

sega are traitors
never gave PSO2 and yet they rub PSO2 anime on our faces, shameful display

from what i hear the only good thing BDO has is the character creator

(more like character editor as Professions are race and gender locked)

Engineer is a rewarding class to learn as a whole simpply because of the overall high skill ceiling required to master engineer unlike other classes cant always just rush into enemies blindly so we have to learn about them as well as our profession and as a result we end up with more overall experience

think about it everyone else that fights an engineer will either say too much damage or too much sustain and complain instead of trying to figure why they got beaten

anyone who plays engineer will say oh this guy is running marauder or that guy is running retaliation bunker cleric or that guy’s runnin Paladin

Maxodon.5243:

For pvp scrapper is pretty strong but not really hard to learn/play, I would say it’s one of the easier classes to play in pvp since it’s pretty forgiving and stacked with heals and defensive skills while still maintaining good damage.

wich is also its downfall its too simple anyone who actually pays attention and actually tries to learn about the profession a bit will counter scrapper just as easily

scrapper needs buff and nerf but non can happen until the other professions are toned down specifically reaper, revenant,mesmer,druid and DH

HappyHubris.1096:

I’ve been trying out HoT with the Elementalist and Necromancer, but am interested in something new. I always enjoy high-skill-cap classes in MMO-type games, and the engineer seems to be the closest to that in PvE and PvP. My biggest annoyance with most GW2 classes is that you camp autoattack and supplement with a few skills, which is a fairly passive way to play. Elementalist is a bit more button-driven, but the “optimal” specs are still very constrictive: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Staff_DPS#Usage

1) Do you find tool-swapping to be a satisfying mechanic? It seems overwhelming to build reflexive use of all those tools/skills!
2) Is engineer effective in world PvE/instanced PvE/sPvP?
3) Is this type of build typical for the engineer class? (http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scrapper_-_Power_Grenadier)

i find those tool swapping builds highly impractical seriously 45-90 key rotations , that is absurd it takes us 6 keys to do what others do with 1 at times

for Pve i run Static discharge

explosives, rocket and siege rounds
tools take down round, static discharge, endurance
inventions or firearms basically bunker down+25% move speed vs extra crit chance

Rifle, fire,bloodlust sigils

runes of rage if you took inventions and travelers if you took firearms if you want 25% move speed

seeing how dragons are bigger , taking whole maps in size i think the last dragon is the planet itself

mordremoth was a corrupt religious feminist sjw

the the overlord pulling the strings is ianta karseitean