Or thiefs would never be able to land a backstab ever is the more likely outcome. Many classes easily counter with a patient activation of block skills, aoe blinds, invulns, etc
Yes you can counter by using defense skills, this was not the point… the point was to promote skillful play by making the attacker to observe and think what the opponent is doing instead of mindlessly attacking. Saying “never be able to land a backstab ever” because of an 1 sec stealth reduction on counter just seems ridiculous to me.
then i think any other class should have their immunity/invul/regen/protection/stability etc. reduced for each swing they do; also the more swings they do w/o landing the hit the less dmg they should do over time just to be fair
I’d do anything for that Mabuse, ANYTHING. I’m actually surprised that most classes don’t have something that can do that. I could picture Engineers being able to cause an AoE reveal with the Utility Goggles, Rangers and Thieves being able to pull it off with traps, and Necromancers with wells, to name a few things.
rogue mechanics in wow are different, they have actual perma stealth, while they do rely on stealth they have moves that allow them to use stealth spells w/o being in stealth as well…. they also have different defensive mechanics that helps them outside of stealth while thieves in gw2 don’t have it
like for example: rogue can steal weapon… disarmed target can’t use any weapon skills in wow
rogues also have evasion that gives them 70%ish (depending on patch) passive evasion, they also get cloak which makes them immune to any magic dmg (aka conditions, ranged caster dmg) for certain amount of time
they can also go in stealth if they stay out of combat for 6 sec
etc etc.
different games are different, you can’t see it just like that in vacuum
and just as side note: in many many patches rogues were really weak, over years rogues population was around 2-3%; in some expansions rogues arena population was close to 1% where warriors were at 25% for example…
I personally think every single trap needs to be removed and turned into aoe team utility skill that thieves lack.
I agree, I actually used traps as an example of skills that simply could not be balanced without being totally reimagined because they have such strong effects only kept in check by being completely unreliable.
Or maybe we remove them and give thieves their own thief petting zoo!?!?
yeaaaahhhh ninja mastermind!!! jk, i would uninstall if thieves turned into another minionmancer :s
I know i had similar post from a while ago but since we have new forums here~ Can stun portion from tow line be removed, please. It makes absolutely non sense that the caster gets stunned by own cast while target isn’t affected at all.
Right now what happens is following: thief uses tow line -> thief (yes, thief) gets stunned while his target is only crippled -> thief is pulled to target while being still stunned and unable to do anything and target can cast at will. Tow line costs 4 ini on top of it.
i play thief and i find aoe spam kittened, what is your point?
I don’t know if this was intended since the beginning, but I for once like the high number of AoE skills.
Most things couldn’t even be approached if there weren’t AoE skills: think about Spirit Rangers, MM necros, most Mesmers. Even Thieves with Stealth are countered by AoE.
Imagine a match with 3 MM necros, one mesmer and one Spirit Ranger. If there weren’t so many AoEs you coulnd’t even approach the point (and it would still be a pain to fight those specs even if you have plenty of AoEs).
You NEED AoEs in this game, especially on autoattacks. If every skill would have been like Thief Dagger #1, it would be impossible to fight some specs.
ahhhh and here we come to the point while thieves struggle in such aoe spam meta
if every class had such high trade off and had to rely on single target dmg, we wouldn’t have as much aoe spam
if every class had to rely on single target dmg and not cleave, then maybe QQ about AI would be bigger and devs would actually FINALLY adress it instead of buffing that bullkitten further despite all the complains comming from pvp community
Your siege placement is bad. And you had more than enough people there to clump up and smash the siege.
If you didn’t want to do that, you also had enough people to have manned a proper set of lord-room siege. Let the Zerg breach, and then farm them.
All of this should have been in place and kept refreshed before the attack ever began.
I’m saying this as gently and politely as possible, when I say it is a learn to play issue for your server.
this screenshot was just made to show the aoe
as i said before, we lost 3 t3s towers within few min and we had them sieged up pretty good including AC hanging off inner side of the walls and supply hut, cata on door, treb on door and balistas at lord… it all didn’t matter… you are not gonna farm 80 man zerg with few ACs due to class mechanics like invul, before AC does anything to them they will kill your AC and you with it
You obviously have a learn to play issue, all I see is someone whining because he gets killed by better players.
playing condi tank and spamming aoe on point is so skillful… (eyeroll)
in any other game aoe was quite limited and aoe spam was punished to certain extend, it would be only great if you hit more than 8 targets or so
in this game aoe does high dmg and is actually promoted… aoe also kind of kills the whole purpose of dodge… i don’t understand it… why should i play a build/class that is based around single target dmg when aoe is so strong? same issue with condi tanks: why should i play squishy dps when i can play tank and do as much dmg in form of conditions?
1. engis (any kind), they just make me want to uninstall this game every single match :/
2. necros
3. zerker guardians (yeah, i know lol, but ironically good zerker guardian will drop my thief w/o breaking sweat :/)
tbh, unless i play perfectly or enemy makes a lot of mistakes pretty much every class is big trouble… dueling thieves are not great for team fights and team thief build is not so great for dueling so go figure.. kind of similar to bunker guardians that probably won’t kill anyone 1v1 but are great for team pvp
i still think the major issue is that pvp was too detached from the rest of the game, the recent changes to system were good but should have happened way earlier and still more of that kind
why do most people play after getting 100% map completion, done all dungeons etc.? skins
the problem with skins in pvp, they stay there and they are relative hard to get compared to pve alternative + you still can’t make legendary via pvp
untill recent patch going to pvp ment losing money, it is still not as profitable as pve but not so bad guess
last days i found new abomination to add to the list of ai crap:
venom share thief using devourer venom + thief guild + ambush trap and yes, venom share includes pets and yes all pets stack immob on you… xD
Thieves guild is on a 180s cd though, and only lasts 30s. So it’s over in 1 fight, and then they’ll be out of serious combat for 2 more minutes. I tried this myself back before the new healing skill update. It’s far better to bring basilisk venom to the game, and share that with your allies.
oh i didn’t say it was OP, actually it is relative easy to deal with if you know how thief works but seeing that even some thieves try to run ai build made me go /facepalm
Like others have said, people staying on a wall doing nothing at all irritate me. Your puny little body will do nothing if you don’t figure out something to stall them.
And using a cata makes their zerg even more vulnerable : sacrifice yourself. They can’t heal a cata, just jump down and destroy it.
Have enough supplies ? Build sup ACs (stop with regular ACs, it’s useless) out of their way and destroy them as soon as they step in because a lot of them are going to rush straight to the lord. And if they want to head for the ACs, they are going to have to get up the stairs and you can get them there.
And if you build even more sup ACs behind your first line of sup ACs, you can kill those players attacking the first line. Also don’t build your siege so close someone can AoE a bunch at the same time.
Have guardians, elementalists and necromancers slow the attacking force rushing in. “But what about stability ?” say hello to Null Field and Well of Corruption.
In your case you had no supplies and 22 players around. You should have jumped down to destroy the catas. You could have even all left for your BL to get supplies, come back and build siege to defend lord room.
You think we haven’t done it? In case you don’t know there was entire map zerg under the wall too, we got melted before we could even do anything to their sieg
as far as building goes, GL getting anything up when walls are permanently under masive aoe attacks
i find it really funny how you say don’t build sieg where it can be AoE’d… well NO kitten WATSON, that is what topic is about… in many towers/keeeps there is NO decent place to put sieg w/o it being either completely useless or getting destroyed by enemy aoe
was gunna harp on this too…but realized they’re fighting sbi….wait…they’re red….wait…your on yb…i’m on yb….THAT’S OUR KEEP! DEFEND IT WITH YOU LIFE! I’M STUCK AT WORK AND CAN’T HELP!
calm down, it was last week lol
we omega rushed their crap today and papered all their t3 which again proved how weak defense is in this game
last days i found new abomination to add to the list of ai crap:
venom share thief using devourer venom + thief guild + ambush trap and yes, venom share includes pets and yes all pets stack immob on you… xD
Are you seriously trying to argue that screen clutter is fun and good for the game?
I think it’s an entirely valid game mechanic that’s available to what, half the professions in the game. It’s part of those classes and people need to learn how to deal with it – just like all the other game mechanics that everyone constantly whines about.
Let’s say you use CnD and actually land it (which not gonna happend vs good opponent), now you can use backstab.. and then what? Auto attack… that is all that is left because every other spell is pointless to use untill at least 25% HP
Let’s assume you play d/p, BP + HS, got stealth got backstab off… can’t blind anything anymore nor do any dmg outside of AA.
I honestly don’t see how it is good idea to simply remove ini and slap CDs on spells w/o modifiying them actually.
I can go roll an engi right now and say, yes i have an engi too therefore any nerf i suggest for engis is a good suggestion.
I think everyone is missing the true scandal here. A keep in the possession of Yak’s Bend was not sieged up to the max.
I’m sure this will come up in server-wide meetings where there will be acrimony and accusations about why there were not at least 5 arrow carts already in place on that wall.
actually it was sieged up…i took screenshot when 90% of it was already destroyed by eles
80s: thief (main), necro, warrior
age: 1752 hours on thief (i think i spent even amount of time in pvp, wvw and pve)
death: 2207
kills: 13823 in wvw, no idea how many kills in pvp certanly more than 2k since i got slayer archiv)
AP: 6881
Ascended trinkets all kind inc. shiney fractal back (fractals and laurels), incinerator, ascended weapons: 2 daggers, 2 pistols, 1 sb, 1 harpoon, 2 ascended weapon boxes i still didn’t use lolololol, ascended armor… ascended staff on necro
100% map completion (doh)
500 weaponsmithing, 500 leatherworking, 500 huntsman (on alt)
most gold at one time: 750~ g..
Eng is among the bottom 3 downed states… if not the worst. The single target pull (#2) is a projectile and very easily countered and cc’s for the shortest period of time. #3 is an aoe knockback and blast finisher (‘cause that’s useful when you’re downed) and does decent damage but it’s otherwise just on par with guards #2 but on a cooldown that’s too long and you’ll rarely get to use it due to the rubbish that is #2.
I agree that the knockbacks/aoe on eng are nice though ^^
I don’t have a problem with the downed state itself, just the redic healing you can do while ressing downed and the ressing from defeated (makes chipping away at a larger force nearly impossible).
Regen build Cynz, regen build. It works wonders for my thief in WvW. Sure he’s still dependent on stealth, but I use that to escape usually or hide in keeps/towers without touching people.
you still have to rely on stealth…. there is no way around it or dodge spec which people also find obnoxious hence the recent nerfs
@Sanduskel: for future reference, i refuse to answer to your posts as the rest of thief community for already many times stated reasons
1: pvp
2: this year
3: as long as i don’t face engis, about the same; engis make me want to uninstall
4: can’t answer that since i didn’t play since launch
5: I have no idea what direction they are going tbh as pretty much every recent change to thief puzzles me. PvP is plagued by condi tanks and aoe spam and thieves are not exactly the best at it nor can fight it well (if even); if i take recent patches as references i am assuming that devs want us to use venoms more and have less stealth/dodges/CCs aka less survival…
I might be wrong but i personally do not get an impression that feedback from thief players is really considered (look at recent patch notes and how much feedback from thieves affected them). Given that i assume that next patches will once again nerf stealth and maybe our moblity and stun breaks but not adress any of thief problems.
Do i agree with direction? Not really. I came from WoW where rogue class (similar to thieves) been nerfed so bad because people can’t deal with stealth that rogue arena population went close to 1% (ironically, wow devs themself stated they can’t figure out why people don#t want to play rogues lol), so eventually devs thought oh hey let’s throw some buffs but as always completely ignored feedback from high ranked players and rogues ended up gimmicky one shot machines and got serverly nerfed again. It kept repeating like this over years. It was very frustrating and what i see is exactly same crap happening here as well.
It is not like thief community isn’t active and didn’t make any good suggestions :/
On side note, i know i am negative Nancy and grass is greener on other side so i did go and rolled other classes, to my surprise some of them (cough warriors) were even easier and more rewarding than i expected. I honestly don’t understand why thief class has to be punished so severely where other classes perform so much better in so many areas and get buffed instead. I personally would love to see other classes brought to same trade off level like thieves have: can’t build bunker w/o completely losing dmg, CCs have high costs, 1 mistake means death, positional requirement etc etc.
I was around rank 400ish when i stopped doing team pvp due to no team so it dropped to 900ish (i think). Did like 3 games today with few friends, rank skyrocketed back to 400 (wat?). Stopped doing games. Logged back, my rank went up again w/o me even playing o.o…..
Not that i care so much about ranks nor complain but is there some massive movement going on right now? How does it even work? I am curious.
the problem here is you don’t hold veloka or ogrewatch. once those are gone, the keep is very vulnerable. under your control you could easily take out their siege from there.
also they are in a vulnerable spot. 2 mesmers and a few friends could wipe 10-15 of them off the cliff easily with a couple null fields and pulls/fears/etc.
all our towers were t3, fully upgraded and sieged up, we lost all of them within 5 min or so to map zerg simply because few of us couldn’t even use most sieg we had due to massive aoe on walls; the only thing we could use is like cata inside yard but that’s it
as far as zerg should always win vs 10, here the thing: how much and recourses did that map zerg commit? 5 min
how much time and recourses did ppl commit to upgrade all towers and keep to t3 and sieg it up? hours
i understand you should have chance to take over even sieged up keeps but you should also put some effort in it like build catas, ACs or treb even… something also needs to be done about 20+ omega rushes and pile of superior rams melting reinforced gates within seconds
You fight them in exactly the same way you fight a perma-stealth thief.
except thief can’t kill you while being stealth, he leaves stealth upon attack…mesmer clones on other hand keep attacking you while mesmer can keep stealth
That’s fair because it’s not like the clones will spike 1/4 to 1/2 of your HP pool in 1 hit.
berserker + duelist + couple of clones can do it quite fast actually and in some cases way faster than thief
i have seens mesmers that can blow someone way faster than thief in one combo
A thief wouldn’t have to stealth so much if they had literally any other abilities to survive a fight.
Instead of another thread about just crying calling for nerfs, I propose that for every ability you suggest they REMOVE from the thief, that you suggest the specific CREATION of another viable skill to make up for it.
I’m a thief and I’d love to fight face to face… …if the game gave me any of the tools needed to win a fight that way.
well then i got a solution for y ou STOP PLAYING 100% Glass cannon
BAM you magically gain survivability and “fight people face to face” thief has tons of means to survive fights they all just choose the cheap exploitive method
except thieves don’t have any other viable builds but semi glass cannon… you can stack toughness/vit and take defensive trees and still get dropped really fast w/o stealth and dodges…
i experiemnted with that and did go full tank on thief, it doesn’t work simply because of low HP pool, no invul, no stability, no blocks, no ageis, kittenty heal rate etc.
oh and news flash, pretty much every thief you will face in wvw is already running SA (toughness tree) so it is as tanky as we can get really…
thieves do NOT have survivability but stealth and dodges… give more means of survival and thieves will stop relying on stealth so much
P.S. can you please elaborate what that “cheap exploitive method” are you talking about? i am cruious
You fight them in exactly the same way you fight a perma-stealth thief.
except thief can’t kill you while being stealth, he leaves stealth upon attack…mesmer clones on other hand keep attacking you while mesmer can keep stealth
Get hit by binding root -> get rooted -> use shadow step -> use shadow return -> get rooted in the air -> can’t use any spells because stuck in their air. STILL NOT FIXED… :/
Actually my bad, it’s a stun not daze but about same effect
I also tested it with a friend underwater, while my thief does get stunned while using tow line, my target doesn’t
Can Anet please explain why should i ever use attack that costs 4 initiative and also stuns my character but has no effect on my target outside of cripple?!
engis is about only class in pvp that makes me want to quit this game, tanky aoe spam with full bar of conditions and dazes.. yeah, gl fighting that unless you are necro
If you’re getting paired up with people like this, you’re a rating that most likely deserves it.
The PvP community needs less experienced players, particularly those from PvE and WvW, to grow. The latest changes have been a good thing.
WvW hardcores > spvp in knowelage of the game and full usage of skills and combos.
This is a war between spvp and wvw players together vs the “casuals” =p
rrrrright, except wvw in 90% of the time consists of zerging aka running as blob spamming 1 and killing NPCs/door (lol pve)
