Guild Wars 2

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Let me get this straight, you are complaining that the Nightmare Fractal doesn’t give enough Challenge and no trashmobs and want trashmobs and more challenge added while stating the challenge mote does exactly that, am I getting that right?

You have the option to get exactly what you want Anet provided it in the form of the Challenge Mote…

Nope, I’m saying that it doesn’t use the full depth of GW2 combat system, which is annoying and boring. As it was said in the OP. Thus I do not want this kind of design being replicated in future fractals (regular versions not challenge mote version).

There is challenge in the nightmare fractal. Of course there is. However, the difficulty boils down to “dodge at the right time” and very little else. This kind of design is prevalent in the old dungeons, Lupi and Subject alpha in particular.

IMO revamped cliffside, swamp and the chaos isle (though the last boss could use some fine tuning) are much closer to what I want for future fractals.

Oh and just to make it clear : trashmob = everything that does not have a defiance bar

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Challenge mode has trash mobs.

Indeed. Good thing I mentioned twice in the OP that it was not the topic.

The challenge mote gets rid of the one the key design constraint of fractals which is to allow any comp to clean it. This is the reason why you have a DPS check on Siax only in the challenge mote and not in the regular version.

However the future fractals (bar their hypothetical challenge motes) will still be made according to the usual constraint.

Hey there,

I don’t often post here and what I’m going to say will be controversial for many on this subforum. Yet someone has to say it. Feel free to flame me afterwards.

Note : I’m not talking about the challenge mote here, the challenge mote is a completely different story I have no problem with.

After completing many times the nightmare fractal at scale 100 with pugs, my casual guildies and my raid roster, I have come to a very simple conclusion :

The nightmare fractal is a step back in design and does not pay a good tribute to the depth of GW2 combat

Thus it should not be a template on which model future fractals. Why so ?

In this fractal, the best strategy to take down bosses it to do the regular and boring “stack and burn” tactic that dominates the dungeon meta. All you have to do is stay close (and not too close to your teammates ’cause social ankwardness) and dodge literally everything . Bonus point with MAMA and Siax if you have perma reflect.

Only Siax is mildly interesting because of the kamikaze mechanic and the breakbar phase. At least it forced you to use blinds intelligently. Though you could still dodge the explosion of kamikaze hallucinations.

In the revamped nightmare tower, your build is irrelevant, your gear is irrelevant. Either you have the mobility potion and you can dodge every kitten thing, be it during boss fights or bullet hell or you die/take 4 hours to finish the fractal. Which is a real shame. And let me tell you, it’s not what fractals T4 are all about.

The fractals of the mist is a 5 man dungeon that requires the player to use every tool at their disposal to overcome challenges. That includes blinds, boon management, mob repositioning, cleave etc.

To make these elements relevant, you need to put trashmobs in your fractal. Trashmobs in high level fractals are as important as the bosses. Trashmobs are not merely fillers, they are a challenge in themselves thanks to inflated HP and damage. The revamped cliffside fractal embodies that the best. The kitty golem fight in chaos is also a good example, where your group is forced to use many different form of active defenses and not just dodging to get a smooth kill.

If anything I would like future fractals to ressemble more like the new cliffside or chaos (minus the final boss which is not fun at all) rather that this 5-man raid wannabe nightmare fractal.

Fractal will never be 5-man raids because of a design constraint that a group of 5 cleric guards should be able to clear it. Play on your strengths Anet. That’s all I’m saying.

TL;DR : Nightmare fractal is just melee stuff and dodges everything. Boring. Doesn’t use depth of GW2 combat. Put more trashmobs in your future fractals like in cliffside or kitty golem fight. I do not discuss challenge mote ‘cause it’s an other story.

Rising Dusk.2408:

You’re right. It’s not optimal; it’s easy and is a nice safeguard and carry class if you end up on a team with really bad players. That’s why it’s so popular.

[ /sterile_debate]

Tried the basket brawl for a while. It became frustrating after 30 sec. Kept playing for 5 games just to confirm my first impression.

Conclusion : This activity is in its current state unplayable. Here are a few suggestion to make this kittening activity not terrible :

• put an arrow on the ball holder
• put a visible symbol on the ball when it’s lying on the ground
• put a cd on the jump skill or, alternatively, make possible to steal from someone jumping, jump spam is abused as hell
• prevent spawn thieves by placing a no go zone around the ball after a point is scored. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing a mob around you waiting for you to pick up the ball.

I know it’s gonna take away manpower from other more important content, but that the price to pay if you don’t want your activity to be avoided like the plague.

Jerus.4350:

Gotta agree that the breakbar is fine, it’s a bit quick, but low

Exactly how I see it. Because most ppl are ranging, by the time a warrior get in melee to headbutt, the spin has already started.

The archdiviner’s “cone” is as quick as the gladiator’s spin but since people can melee the former, breaking his bar is manageable if your group knows what to do.

domness.6719:

snip

What you are describing is a smart way to avoid the daze, however it doesn’t tell me how to compensate the damage dealt by 1st and 2nd hit. The daze is very annoying but it’s only half of the problem. And the 270° arc paired with the purple tiles are not helping.

If you can find me a video of a kill using such a tactic, I’d be thankful.

Hey there,

after going through the Chaos fractal (difficulty 88 and 99) with my casual guildies, members with whom I raid weekly and random PUGs, I pinned down some issues that should be adressed in order to make the last boss of the fractal much more enjoyable. Don’t get me wrong , I find the fractal overall interesting, however some issues with the last boss are ruining the fun.

Issue 1 : Melee hate.

• The gladiator’s AA inflicts both a lot of damage and applies a very long duration daze in a large arc.
• At higher scales, to be able to stand up him and inflict melee damage you need both a powerful healer and someone who can dish out stability or vigor (to dodge his third hit)
• Too bad, at scales 88 and 99 your boons are stolen. :-(

Issue 2 : Unbreakable breakbar

• I understand Anet wanted to incentivise us to break the gladiator’s breakbar by staying in melee range. The AoE is so large that wanting to escape it from melee range is almost impossible.
• However, because of Issue 1, we are forced to range the boss.
• With the time allowed to break the boss, there is no way we can get back to melee range and unleash our CCs.
• Thus double dodging to escape the AoE is a much more preferable tactic

As of now (it has been said in other topics) the only smooth strategy that can achieve a consistant kill of the boss regardless the scale is to max range him using necros and condi mesmers. It doesn’t promote skillful play nor build diversity

Suggestions :

1. Balance the numbers so that the gladiator’s regular attack deals damage similar to the archdiviner. Concentrate the damage and daze on the third hit to reward players who can count up to 3 and dodge.
2. Add a new attack to the gladiator similar to arcing slice. A 360° swing that deals extreme damage at higher scales. This attack should be telegraphed by an orange AoE.
3. Add a grap or a teleport to allow the gladiator to threaten ranged players. This attack should include a snare component and could be followed up by the arcing slice.

I hope this catches the eye of a dev and doesn’t get buried too quickly.

My money is on a zerker (not valk) necromancer who can stack might, vuln and get to 100% crit chances all by himself. Nice ranged options are available if there is a need. Only drawback : the DPS has to ramp up.

The ele is also potent but made of toilet paper that will break if an enemy sneeze at it. However it has a higher initial burst than the necromancer.

A DPS Warrior (we are in a solo setup so no phalanx) is also very nice. However, you will miss some crit chances and will require to bring all of your targets to melee range either by clever positioning or by chasing them. Chasing targets is a huge DPS loss as the warrior does not have a very good ranged weapon.

^ What this guy said also worked for some ppl in my guild.

Burtnik.5218:

Meanwhile i dont understand why anyone would want healer in raid.. If you cant manage to stay alive there without healer its l2p issue.

IIRC, the red dude during split phases pulses unavoidable damage, hence the need for a healer.

Also the seekers are a pain to keep at bay all the time.

Thaddeus.4891:

Staff Ele won’t cut it for this engagement so after that, most zerker can in theory reach between 12 and 16k dps in optimal situation. We can probably drop that to 7 and 11k dps.

I guess eles will have to dust off their good old thunder hammers S/D build ^^

Back on topic : I agree with the others. While my group was wrecked by the vale guard, the enrage timer makes sense in terms of game design and I don’t want to see it removed.

Eponet.4829:

Ensign.2189:

Then their DPS sucked. The raid boss has roughly 20 million HP – that’s less than 7k DPS per zerk player. A top flight DPS build should easily do twice that.

Source?

I thought the 14k DPS was only a reasonable expectation in short fights, using the pre bug fixed meteor storm/ice bow and pre-nerf ice bow

7000 dps sounds reasonable for most classes, but easily doing 14000 seems like you’re exaggerating, unless you were intentionally picking out enemies with lower than typical toughness.

I’m not an expert on DPS ranking nor speed clear but are these numbers only for single target or for multiple targets ?

7k DPS is what I can sustain for 8 min with the necro pugging build in CoE (I can sustain around 12 vuln on avg and get 25 might on my own. No need for fury since I have deathly perception).

I sometimes look at record runs of arah and a warrior can get more than 30k cumulated damage with 100b on the lupicus. That’s more than 10k dps but it’s not on 8 min average but rather on less than 30 sec long fights.

I’m afraid that sustaining 14k dps on average on a single moving target for 8min is a lot to ask. Of course on 3 or 5 targets this is a piece of cake but that’s not gonna matter for the vale guardian.

Lévis.5489:

In PVE central tyria you only need two stats: Berserker’s and Sinister’s.

Fixed that for ya !

Also @OP : remember that ascended Equipment is account bound. So you can share it between your toons.

Kirigato.7183:

Which one these class are the most fun to play and what is their similarities and differences, pros and cons

Dépends on what class you prefer to play in the vanilla game.

I am first and foremost a necro player so the reaper has my preference.

I still struggle with rangers so I didn’t have the time (and the motivation) to play a druid during BWE3.

I enjoyed the revenant a lot. To me this class feels like a guardian when played in PvE. Not saying they are the same but the synergies with a group are kinda similar.

Whitewolf.7395:

Will we still need our agony infusions for HoT? Is this system changing with the masteries or are these still required?

Currently there has been no content announced for HoT that requires agony resistance. FotM will require AR as usual.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

10 Zerker Rangers will face roll all Raid bosses. With pets, you have 20 individual attackers. Pet swap give your party an additional 10 when your pet dies.

That remains to be seen.

Silverstone.4539:

There is no skill in this, it’s just a memory game.

Yup, I still don’t get why people want the return of SAB tribulation mode so much.

Batresh.3958:

Nemesis has made a “More likely Meta variant of the DS BUILD” (as you understand it) He said he will upload a video this week which features this build in some kind of… Meh gonna hold it a secret for now :>

AFAIK Nemesis is the first who made a guide on the DS build archetype. Nemesis concern has always been PUG and not speed clear since this is how he played the game. Hence why he came up with a highly autonomous but “inefficient in speed clear” build.

Brazil liked the idea and refined it further after that.

Khristophoros.7194:

Spite is a joke in group play because your party just buffs you to 25 might anyway.

It’s good in crappy pugs when nobody is bothering to blast or bring PS.

Well it’s also good because of Close to Death, but the ramping up attrition aspects are a joke because they don’t stack with party buffs.

That ramping up attrition effect makes wonders in PvP so it’s no joke. Try not to tunnel your vision to speed-clearing matters when you discuss balance. TYVM

As a friendly recall to some people over here : I’d like to remind you that the old dungeon and fractal content has been designed at a time when arenanet had little clue on what the playerbase was capable of achieving in PvE.

If you look at the most iconic boss of the game (Transformed grawl shaman, Mai Trin and the Lupicus) you’ll notice they all :

• Attack once every 4 seconds or so
• OHK you with their attacks

Hence why the necro is considered “not survivable” since they lack invulnerabilities outside of their dodges. Now if you look at more recent bosses like the Evolved teragriff we fight during LW S2 E6 (rescue the aspects masters) and the Evolved mordrem troll (rescue the master of peace), you see a little change in the design pattern. Precisely : they move and attack all the time.

I play elementalist in dungeons (D/F because staff is boring and I PUG an awful lot) yet my best kill times with these two bosses are with a necromancer, who is much more forgiving/sustainable and can inflict its damage at range (I was using a DS build since I soloed these fights). Also, the staff ele suffers from the mobile target syndrome : the Evolved teragriff was moving all the time making it difficult for me to damage him with a lava font.

In light of the new boss design that appeared with LW S2, I think you should not discard the necromancer too quickly this time.

Unreal.4913:

I have found builds for dungeons and fractals but was looking for one for open world, specifically for the Silver Wastes. Thanks

What Arachnid said. My preference goes for a dagger build for open-world since they are quite capable of inflictnig burning which is very important if you don’t want to spend age Killing mordrem husks.

Just find the D/F build for dungeons and use it for open-world and swap some dps utilities for mobility and defensives ones.

Elorna.5329:

So it’s somehow important if WP said so?

WP’s channel is one of the most popular GW2 related channel (and his channel is one of the few I’ve subscribed to). Truth is, people usually give credit to statements based on the popularity of the one who makes the statement rather than on the validity of the statement itself.

That’s the reason why independant journalism is a fundamental element of democratic societies btw but I digress.

Anyway, during the first BWE, the tempest has been found underwhelming by everyone (including me) for all gamemodes. Number changes have been made (ppl expecting overhaul at this point of development are truly out of touch with reality) and we’ll see where this takes us.

Ganathar.4956:

VodCom.6924:

Conncept.7638:

Xillllix.3485:

Ohoni.6057:

Think beyond the “new” factor and you’ll realize all the flaws it has starting with the base core mechanic. Tempest should decrease your attunements cooldown, not increase it.

Decrease. . . lol, no.

Why not? Skills have internal cooldowns anyway, all you would be getting would be a faster attunement boon. Mesmers are getting dual shatter from stealth. Single shatter is already game-breaking OP.

Because that’s already what the arcane tree does, and people have wanted less swap-centric and more elemental-themed builds since launch.

This was, unfortunately, the wrong way to address either issue. The overloads don’t reward you for staying in an attunement for longer, they punish you staying in it for more or less the same amount of time as the base class.

You lost me on the word punish . How does adding an extra option to each element punishes you ?

You have the choice to activate the overload or not, just like you have the choice with the vanilla ele to stay in an element or to swap for an other element.

Truth be told, some people are not pleased to get something that does not makes their class more OP (I’m looking at you chronomancer) and are trying to find silly reasons to explain why they are kittened off.

While I tested the tempest during the last BWE and found it underwhelming, I still saw potential in this elite spec for PvE at least. The changes they’ve announced are going in the right direction.

Overloads are punishing whether you use them or not. If you use them, you risk way too much for very little reward. If you choose not to use them , there is no point traiting into tempest. Tempest is tied very much to overloads because all of its minor traits involve overloads only. In addition, it has the weakest ele traits by far. This means that merely having the option to use them in a combat situation is punishing.

The minors are as their name implies minor elements of the tempest. What makes the tempest interesting to me in WvW at least are the shouts that offers plenty of powerful auras for alies while allowing us to keep cleansing waters in the water spec.

For that simple fact the tempest is not off my radars.

Again, try to think outside of the box. Nobody is pointing a gun at you and say : use these overloads off cooldown. If you don’t need them, don’t use them.

Conncept.7638:

Xillllix.3485:

Ohoni.6057:

Think beyond the “new” factor and you’ll realize all the flaws it has starting with the base core mechanic. Tempest should decrease your attunements cooldown, not increase it.

Decrease. . . lol, no.

Why not? Skills have internal cooldowns anyway, all you would be getting would be a faster attunement boon. Mesmers are getting dual shatter from stealth. Single shatter is already game-breaking OP.

Because that’s already what the arcane tree does, and people have wanted less swap-centric and more elemental-themed builds since launch.

This was, unfortunately, the wrong way to address either issue. The overloads don’t reward you for staying in an attunement for longer, they punish you staying in it for more or less the same amount of time as the base class.

You lost me on the word punish . How does adding an extra option to each element punishes you ?

You have the choice to activate the overload or not, just like you have the choice with the vanilla ele to stay in an element or to swap for an other element.

Truth be told, some people are not pleased to get something that does not makes their class more OP (I’m looking at you chronomancer) and are trying to find silly reasons to explain why they are kittened off.

While I tested the tempest during the last BWE and found it underwhelming, I still saw potential in this elite spec for PvE at least. The changes they’ve announced are going in the right direction.

Alekt.5803:

First of all, don’t pick the Conjurer trait in PVP

For a S/X Hammer build in PvE, taking conjurer is almost mandatory.

Not to devalue your post which si a great analysis and provides good feedback (some of which I agree with, some of which I don’t). Just wanted to avoid confusions.

Ohoni.6057:

I never said they promise, I said they teased us, learn to read.

ANet has never, to my knowledge at least, “teased” us about Eles using swords. It was only known because it was datamined from the client. They don’t put stuff in there intending it as a message, they put it in there because they are testing something out, and if it doesn’t make live, it’s for a reason. If you find out about something that is datamined, that is not ANet’s fault, and they owe you absolutely nothing for it.

It’s also worth nothing that Warriors are a mobile fire field by setting themselves on fire, which is a perfectly reasonable way to be a fire field.

I really wish the orb of water turned us into a mobile water field instead of sending that water field in a random direction where we can’t actually use it.

Also, does cyclone aim for the targeted player or the direction the tempest is facing ?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

For some reason, ANet doesn’t value the anniversary of the game as a celebration instead of a sellabration and this cash shop focus on sellabrating isn’t helping the game.

Really ? Here I naively thought that giving money to the studio was supporting the game. How wrong I was ! [/sarcasm]

Argol Vazin.3061:

So our story begins when we are teased with elemental sword skills. The dream was rel, Ele would be getting sword. However the dream didn’t last and warhorn was destined to be our new weapon.

snip

And now, Warriors, a martial class with no real magic. they are given the ability to become a mobile fire field, something that the ele should have being a master of elements. They also get a new utility type exclusive to them. and from what is known. they already synergize with their base class.

snip

I want to shatter two pices of bullkitten you’ve thrown in the debate with your first post:

1. You were NEVER promised sword skills for ele. Your “promise” is based on very old datamining that has been since nullified by a second wave of datamining showing off elemental warhorn. As that_shaman on reddit regularly says : datamined stuff is likely to change before being released. Whining because you didn’t get something that was datamined is childish entitlement.
2. All classes in the game are able to use and manifest magic power to a certain degree. It’s in the lore of the Guild Wars franchise. This is the reason why as a warrior, you could take necro as a secondary class and use their dark magic powers. In Guild Wars 2 every class can use Healing magic because the ambiant level of magic has increased since GW1, opening up a new range of powers.

I agree though there are problems with the tempest as it now stands : the overload mechanic is something that is encouraging you to stand in one attunement while nearly all weapon skills are balanced with attunement swapping in mind. Thus playing the tempest is neither as straightforward or as evident as playing the berserker. We have to look beyond a playstyle we have been using for such a long time, and it is very difficult.

To put things in perspective : at the launch of the game everyone and their mothers considered the ele to be a sub-par class because dps coefficients were so low and cooldown so high. It took weeks (if not months) of theorycrafting both in PvP and PvE for the community to come up with valid playstyles for this class. The tempest is not gonna be different in this regard IMHO.

The elite shout is nearly un-usable in 99% of the situations in this game This I completely agree with. Some suggested the shout should apply Alacrity to allies around the caster. Personnally I like this idea a lot.

Windsagio.1340:

Necros will complain about how every possible change will destroy them. It’s apparently part of the aggreement you sign when you roll the class.

I am a necromancer at heart and I do not endorse this message.

As always when change is approaching, I brace myself, pull my finger outta my a** and try to find new ways to make sure others die before me.

lordkrall.7241:

So basically: People with the expansion should be mechanically stronger by having access to Elite Specializations?

That is not really what Guild Wars 2 is about.

Ppl with HoT have more options for building their characters indeed. Though they are not mechanically stronger.

It’s a matter of horizontal progression not vertical.

rotten.9753:

If those tools will be ever used in pve.

They won’t be used in speed clear : You sacrifice too much +X% damage modifier for what you bring as offensive support.

The only thing I see is the quickness share and extension w/ warhorn.

arkealia.2713:

But if you’re looking at DPS, Tempest is probably not for you. That specialisation was clearly made for group support, especially with auras.
But I’ll agree that Overloads are a bit underwhelming when you see their cast time…

Indeed, it would have been strange for Anet to give ele more dps tools and capabilities. Ele Is already the King of damage in the actual pve meta. Adding more support tools was definitely a better move.

The tempest was clearly designed for WvW. The utilities are shouts so they can be combined with rune of the trooper.

The cd on air overload can be bypassed by fresh air.

The tempest Is not an obvious thing to play… just like the elementalist when the game was released. It took the community quite some time to master it.

One last misconception I’d like to shatter : Colin Johanson has stated recently that the team wants tanky builds to be relevant in high level content. The actual meta is the result of the inexperience of the team and not something they intended from the beginning.

Skipping for example is something they’ve fought against (look at TA aether).

So don’t claim that only dps and dps boosters matter in pve, because this might change.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Here’s the real reality and the fundamental issues are clearly spelled out for those who refuse to look past their own noses; http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3efbu6/necromancer_does_it_need_a_rework/

Your reddit post barely scratched the surface of things and confuses symptoms and causes.

The necromancer is built with 3 principles in mind :

• Condition manipulation at the cost of condi application
• Low mobility compensated by high HP
• Selfishness

These 3 principles ALONE can explain the actual state of the necro in the meta. The necromancer is insane when it comes to self buffing. Both in pve, pvp and wvw. It only matters in WvW because these fights are so chaotic You need to be self sufficient to be efficient. In speed clear, someone can buff you and babysit you all the way.

Low mobility and high HP explains the poor state of necro in sPvP. You cannot escape a gank so you are your team’s weakpoint.

The necro does not need a rework. In pvp it is starting to become a thing. In WvW is it already a thing. In PvE, necros need content where they are useful. Not a rework to be an ele wannabe.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

- I’d love to see your numbers on this
- not only is it done better it is also not needed in PvE. the one thing we do very well is transfer conditions and strip boons. Well enemies apply 10s boons every 5s while out boon strips have 50s CDs… worthless. Enemies purge conditions almost continuously while our transfers have long CD’s.
- clearly you’ve never tried to catch someone with a Necro. We have 0 mobility. A thief/mesmer/warrior/ele/ranger could be halfway across a map before we even ran a single body length, good luck landing a melee chill with a slow swinging attack lol
- being fun to play has pretty much nothing to do with this discussion. platformers are fun to play too and you do 0 damage in them.

We offer no finishers, no helpful fields, our new team support gives a wonderful 30 damage/healing per attack… and when we cause our team to fail due to lack of support and damage we can at least teleport their bodies onto us to show them we are the most likely reason they died.

I’m a pve player so my comment about hitting a target is for PvE. For PvP, mobility is a long lasting problem and HoT is NOT worsening the problem. Also keep in mind that cele signet necros are becoming a thing since the 23/06 update and that catching their target is not the biggest problem they face. Their biggest problem is their inability to escape a poorly executed gank (since no invuln for necros).

I don’t have the numbers though if you browse the dungeon subforum you’ll get an idea of the actual dps order (hint : mesmer and guards are at the bottom and not necros). And with the reaper upgrade, the necromancer will climb up the dps ladder and be a better blind field provider than the thief (i.e better team support).

Don’t even consider vampiric aura as group support for dungeon. Any form of support through healing is worthless in speed clear. The support necro bring in speed clear is vulnerability application (ele can give you 25 stack only for a few seconds) and boon control.

Hi Aeolus, and welcome to the Game.

If you plan on using your nécro mostly alone I recommand you to use a Deathshroud build (often shortened by DS). This build is potent and completely autonomous.

Your priority is to invest in soul reaping and gain access to the trait Deathly Perception. Then fill the spite track. The last track is up to you.

About utilities : you should always ne prepared to swap them often. At high level, minions are a liability. Your best bets are locus signet, the well of suffrring and corruption, the signet of spite.

hope this helps

Ok I need to get some facts straight quickly for some necro fans over here :

• Necro is NOT at the bottom of the DPS scale for dungeon speed clearing. Damage is actually on par with rangers and lower than warriors.
• Necro is not appreciated because what they bring to a group (boon control, vuln and condi cleanse) is done better by other classes.
• The reaper GS can hit while you move and has a chill on 3rd AA chain. I fail to see why hitting moving targets is impossible
• As other said, the numbers are not final and betas will help the dev adjust them
• If you look beyond the speed clear meta which is a niche activity that is practiced by a tiny minority of players, you’ll realise that a necro has lots of strengths and is very enjoyable to play (e.g : the necro are extremely efficient in the silverwastes).

Can the necro community stop having this inferiority complex that is unjustified and boring in the long run.

I already see a nice synergy in order to bypass (partially) the long attunement cooldowns after using overload.

Anyone has other ideas on how to use the tempest features, like using shouts and trooper rune to get rid of water spec in pvp ?

The big idea is to be creative and to deviate from the known build archetypes.

Lauriewonnacott.9841:

I bought the Ultimate Xpac and I made Bolt as my first legendary then bound it to my thief. At the time, I did it because I was so excited about the potential, and now I feel ripped off.

Man, I dunno what to say. You made a legendary for your ele and bound it to your account… without confirmation that the ele were getting swords. Oo

I mean… that’s a friggin’ huge risk you took. Binding a legendary based on datamined intel is not a good move. I hope you won’t do this mistake again.

I have a guildie who crafted bolt expecting to be able to use it on his ele, but he had the presence of mind not to bind it until official confirmation. Guess what ? He made 3k gold tonight.

Fade.1743:

(compacted for readability)

dagger skill #2 can hit multiple targets in all attunements
Dagger skill #3 does this as well for fire and water.

What you are complining about is that the auto-attack do not. However, as some theorycrafters have explained a long time ago, as an elementalist you should dance between attunements and use AA as least as possible in PvE, because they are all lacklusters. The ele’s AA are designed to be lacklusters because you have 20 weapon skills that you should use instead of auto-attacking (talking about dagger builds here).

Conjures do not prevent you from switching attunements. They prevent you from using you survival weapon skills. This is a real drawback, but remember that the conjured hammer has utilities build in it’s AA (namely, the blind and explosion on 3rd hit).

We feel we are locked in a single attunement because we trait for water and aim at maximising dps by staying in water as long as we wield the hammer. However, you can change your traits and still be able to swap to clear condis or grant protection/stability to your group while wearing the hammer or any other conjures.

The meta scepter/hammer builds are constructed with DPS in mind, and since we almost always play this way in pve, we tend to forget that there are other (less efficient in organised dungeons) ways to play the lightning hammer.

Though I guess we’ll have to wait the livestream (and the beta) to give a proper jugement.

Fade.1743:

Because we have no way to cleave in melee outside of…1 ability in terms of weapons. Sadly, you’re in the boat that doesn’t understand why this is a huge disadvantage for all forms of content, but I can only speak for PvE.

So, staff is pretty much dominant in the current meta in PvE…until we start fighting mobile mobs. You know…what might be considered challenging content. Staff is the best DPS in what WoW deemed a Patchwerk fight. Essentially a boss fight with no mechanics for DPS to avoid and the boss would stay in the same place the entire fight. Once a boss starts moving, Staff DPS can start lowering as the abilities take more time to land…or even might be difficult to land.

Now to circumvent this problem, we’d need some form of melee burst with an actual cleave mechanic. This why we can just be close enough to the boss to continue to do damage. Scepter and Staff pretty much have the same problem of needing to have stationary targets to do their damage. Dagger on the other hand isn’t as limited.

So, run dagger simple solution! Except not really. Fire is pretty much a necessity for damage as Burning Speed is a very strong ability. On top of now lasting longer to blast out more might and give out fury. And now we get to the problem of Lightning Whip. So, in order to play dagger to its fullest damage, we need the most access to lightning whip. Solution: Fresh Air. Okay, that solves that problem, but opens up another. Now we HAVE to pick 2 specializations in order to even get Dagger/X to compete with staff.

Now then, let’s add Tempest and Warhorn into the mix. Say that Warhorn pretty much gives us enough damage and utility to be a comparable choice to Focus. In order to run a dagger build in PvE, Fire-Air-Tempest are mandatory. And if bosses are very mobile…yep pretty much mandatory.

This is NOTHING AT ALL like Mesmer getting Shield. Mesmer is not kitten for having a shield. Chronomancer might be an alternative, but it might not be necessary. And even then Mesmers and EVERY other profession will have access to a regular melee weapon with cleave. You might argue Engineers don’t, but rifle is very mobile and doesn’t require a sitting target to do damage….and their toolkit outshines our Lightning Hammer in terms of mechanics as it doesn’t remove their toolbelt AND their weapon slots. (We essentially lose 21 skills and our class emchanics to run a conjure).

So please educate yourself before saying get over it. A lot of us want Warhorn to be good. The problem with warhorn IS NOT warhorn. It’s that we don’t have any good main hands. I’m hoping that dagger is given better and regular autoattacks in the upcoming expansion as it fits their design principle concerning Elite specs. However, without such a change, elementalists are now at a huge disadvantage for fighting mobile bosses.

Ty for taking the time to structure your answer. Here is my reply :

1st of all, I’m a pve player and while I do not practice speed clear, I follow pve tournaments and read dps spreadsheets enough to understand what we’re talking about.

I agree with you about the classic PvE build :

• staff is inefficient as soon as your target starts moving.
• scepter requires pre-stack and brings little self sustain, although in an organised group, either someone will babysit you or stuff will die so fast survival won’t be an issue.
• dagger is the most flexible option for both solo and group content (kudos to Neko and Zelhyn for their guides about this build btw) and both dagger and focus have their use.

However I strongly disagree about the need of a melee cleaving weapon :

• dagger can cleave even though it’s damage is not great however it’s cleaving at 300 range which is all things considered awesome.
• hammer is the true melee cleaving weapon. This is why it was not nerfed during the June 23rd update. The devs know it fills an important role so they didn’t touch it.
• the engineer tool kit has much more utility than the hammer but it doesn’t have a matching dps especially in pve where it’s not part of the engineer meta (except for trash run). So the comparison you made is void.

All in all the sword as a melee cleaving weapon would not bring anything the ele does not already have.

Wharhorn on the other hand could bring something new : sustained PBAoE damage. Think about locust swarm. Elementalists do not have a skill that has similar functionnalities. We have some auras but they are punishing skills rather than offensive skills and thus have almost no use in PvE.
A storm surrounding the elementalist and damaging/debuffing ennemies standing close fill a niche previously unoccupied in the ele kitten nal. In encounters where invulnerabilities or anti-projectiles are not needed, the warhorn could bring some extra dps to a dagger build.

As such I am much more interested by warhorn than I am by swords.

Nighty.9721:

Ah… no, warhorn skins are bad.
And the weapon itself lacks appeal.

Your opinion man.

Personnaly I could use some variety : I’m sick of seeing GS/swords/staves all over the place.

Time to give the underdog weapons some love.

OneKlicKill.4285:

Arobain.8274:

soulstitch, these guys are elitist, theres nothing we can do for em

I mean I can call you a fanboy, obvious by your post history, but me being an elitist(by the way you should look up that word since you use it so much, it doesn’t mean what you think it means) doesn’t have anything to do with this.

The vast majority of the class and nearly ALL of the competitive players who know the ins and outs of this class and what it actually needs, agree that we need a melee weapon with true melee range and auto attack range. They agree that scepter is situational at best and needs some serious rework. They agree that OH dagger and focus are two extremely good offhands covering the majority of our OH needs, they agree we have a lot of team support and need a weapon that can bring self defense and utility in offense such as blinds, blocks, evades, teleports, disables; so we have ways to get away from cele amulet, sustain arc/water, and cantrips.

Warhorn can not bring us this, it will bring us either more AOE support or condi, none of which we need. And the only way tempest will work now is if it modifies all of our current weapons similar to reaper and shroud. Especially if it promotes attun camping, we have all of 2 auto attacks in this game that are actually decent out of 12, fire staff and air dagger. Sword was our chance to leave the cele/soldier history of our class behind and become a true damage dealer not having to use boons and tough/vit amulets as a crutch.

Enlighten me : why do ele NEED a true melee weapon ? What kidn of niche could it fill that the dagger does not ?

I believe all this madness springs from a very basic and childish feeling : why can’t I have the same toys the mesmer has ?

The hope some of you had was based on some VERY OLD datamining that has been nullified a few weeks ago by a second wave of datamining.

The people who actually give a kitten about the game and follow what’s going on saw it coming from far away.

Also : look at the chronomancer shield. In the meantime GET OVER IT.

CureForLiving.5360:

Cilph.6758:

I actually like underwater combat. It’s just that ANet seems to put in so little effort.

It’s not a matter of a little effort so much as a complete overhaul.

Well I guess when we’ll have to fight Steeve, Anet will be forced to do that complete overhaul.

The real difficulty about UW is the management of AOE and targeting as well as the hitboxes of monsters and players. Right now they are the most obvious problem.

My 2 cents :

I mostly agree with the OP comments on weapon. Just to add a few things :

• the AA of the hammer is way too slow. Skill 2 is interesting. Drop the hammer is too easily avoided.
• the AA of the mace is underwhelming with just one target. With a group it’s becoming much better. Conclusion : change nothing for now.
• Mace #2 is ridiculously weak. Have it pulse more burning. Even when going full rabid, the condi damage mace can inflict is weak compared to the warrior sword.

About legends :

• Displacement skills are wonky and frustrating to use. Also : door opened for PvE exploits where I move bosses in places they were not supposed to be.
• Mallyx : Elite is really nice and versatile for both condi and direct damage build. The heal is decent. The other utilities are too costly and can’t be combo’ed.
• Jalis : the taunt is too costly and risky to use.
• Ventari : in dungeons, moving the tablet around is ok. Solace is a nice and fun skill. Same for nature harmony. The elite and delayed healing are not worth the casting time.

About the legend system in general :
Revenants loose an enormous amount of flexibility because of the utility skills bundle system that legends bring. However, since you design legends around sPvP, you always end up in PvE with skills you don’t want to use. Makes it impossible to have builds perfectly fitted for one encounter.

Possible solutions :

• Introduce a special type of utility skills that can be equipped on any legend. They are less potent than legen specific skills but allow you to replace a specific stances that you have no use for.
• Release a crapton of legends that are really focussed on one specific function (condi cleanse, reflect etc…).

Just to add water to the mill :

The devs can release as much legends as they want, it won’t solve the inherent problem legends brings to the revenant : not getting the right tools for the right job.

When you are trying to build for a dungeon (speed clear or just pug) with any vanilla class, you are always switching weapons and skills to only have stuff that is useful for the coming encounter.
Just the useful skills and nothing else.

With revenant, too bad, no matter what you choose, you’ll always end up with something on your bar that is not usable!

Suggested solutions :

• Either add a new type of skills that are not legends related and that can be equipped on any legend. This will aloow us to replace a useless stance with something that has some use.
• Or upgrade the legend specific skills so that they are more powerful than the counterparts other classes have. Since the legend skills come in bundle and you won’t use some of them, we need something to compensate.

I’ll be going to the show on behalf of a French community guild (Le Bus Magïque [LBM]).
Looking forward to see you there.

Inimicus.7162:

So I plead: Don’t make the melee staff mistake now, it will be irreversible. Please wait for later, make polearms and do it right.

I completely agree with this statement. Anet, if you want to make us fight with melee sticks, that’s fine in my book. However, make sure you do it right. The actual staff design is NOT made for clubbing people to death.

The only thing you will accomplish by using the actual staves as melee weapons is make GW2 look ridiculous. Which is something none of us want.